317. Revolutionizing Healthcare: Behavioral Science Strategies for Improved Patient Outcomes with Eden Brownell

Welcome to episode 317 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Eden Brownell, Director of Behavioral Science at Mpulse Mobile. Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friend. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Eden Brownell, Director of Behavioral Science at Impulse Mobile. This interview is a fun one, as it's a rebroadcast of a live podcast interview we did together while at greenbook's iiex North America Conference earlier this year. I've done a couple of these before with Sarah Wilson from Walmart, Greta Harper of Maker's Mark, and Beatrix Darros from Mars while in Amsterdam. While we have known each other for quite a while virtually, this was our first time meeting in person. It was so great to meet Eden for the first time at this event in Austin since I love being able to connect with people and there's just something different about being together live, don't you think? Let me know what you think. On social media, do you prefer to be meeting people in person or does virtual do the trick or kind of a mix of of both.

You can find me on all the.

Socials as the Brainy biz so this live interview you're going to hear today was titled Transforming Healthcare Delivery with Behavioral Science. As you know from listening to this show, people often know what they should do and even what they want to do. But making a change or adhering to those shoulds can be hard in the moment without the right incentives. And if those habits are stacked up against you, it can be really difficult to change behavior. When it comes to health care, there's a lot riding on the patients doing what they should like following instructions to stay off an injured leg or eating the right foods or taking their medicines on time. Is there anything that can be done to help patients naturally help themselves? Impulse Mobile, where Eden is Director of Behavioral Science, has focused on understanding the psychological factors that influence patient behavior, including motivation, decision making and emotional regulation, and how these factors can be leveraged to improve healthcare outcomes. In this interview with Eden, you'll hear about real case studies and how incorporating behavioral science can be used in any industry to improve outcomes. They've done some really cool stuff. I can't wait to share it with you really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including related past episodes, like those other interviews I've done at iiex events in the past, links to articles and books, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 317. Now let's jump back in time and listen in on this interview with Eden Brownell.

All right. Hello, Hello. Welcome to the purple stage today here at iiex North America. I am Melina Palmer. I'm the host of the Brainy Business podcast and the CEO of the Brainy Business, where we work on applying behavioral economics into businesses to help customers to buy and employees to buy in. And today I'm so, so excited to be joined with my friend Eden Brownell, who is the director of behavioral science at Mpulse Mobile. So, Eden, for everyone who doesn't yet know who you are and the work you do, share a little bit. Tell us about you.

Perfect. I have to say, I am equally excited to be here with you after spending all of our past few days here exploring iiex for the first time myself. But, yes, I am a director of behavioral science at a health technology company. So we've been learning, obviously, a lot of sessions this week about behavioral science. For me, it's really that nerdy passion for understanding humans. Why are they doing what they're doing? Why are they maybe not doing what they should do? And that's all super relevant when it comes to healthcare. So excited to chat with you today.

Yeah. So what drew you to behavioral science as a field? Like you were saying, there's a little bit of being nerdy caring about people. But did you have a specific. Was it a book or a moment or a research study or anything you remember that really pulled you in of feeling like there was a lot of valuable insights there?

Yeah. I had originally did my undergrad in, like, psychology. I was a bit of a theater nerd in college. And I realized very quickly that the same things that were exciting me about theater, of understanding characters, their motivations, their psychologies, helping, like, actors get into character, that was just so true of how I felt about all human behavior. So I very quickly was like, okay, behavioral science is the thing. And I think for me, I really loved the work being done by Amy Boucher and her Engaged in book, which is really so focused on the area that I live in within Digital health.

Oh, yeah. I love Amy. She's been on the podcast before. She's so, so awesome. So for everyone who's listening to this after the fact, we'll be linking that to the show notes@brainybusiness.com and really, you know, I love that you were talking about prep for characters. I talk a lot in, we think about storytelling and for brands that you have to do, like method acting, preparation, style. Right. Where you need to know all these details that don't all matter in the moment, but you need to know, like, would my character do that? You know, you'll see actors will say, like, my character would never say that.

Yeah.

And we need to know that level of our brands and our products as well. Because really those personalities, brands are memories. And so being able to associate with an organization, it's important to keep that level of mental engagement in mind.

Yeah, definitely. I feel like my theater research background definitely was this sort of cornerstone of my now love of research, understanding people and especially people and their behaviors as it relates to healthcare decisions, which is a very tricky field to play in.

Yeah, yeah. Unrelated to that, but just in a, like, getting to know ourselves a little bit. Do you have either a dream role that you would want to play in theater and. Or a favorite part that you played? Wow.

So my dream role had been actually, I'm gonna maybe like butcher the name of it, but it was a dramaturg. And so they are the liaison between the playwright and the director. And so it's really that person that's like getting deep in the understanding of the play. Understanding different, like, you know, something like Romeo and Juliet has been done so many times, but so many different variations. And that's because the director and the dramaturg, like, had a different, like, understanding of it or perception. And so I just always love that that you can, like, do all that research on everything that has been done, you know, what the playwright really intended for and then being able to pass that off to the director and also helping the actors really get into their characters mindsets.

Hmm. Cool. To be able to have a different interpretation on something that's been done the same way a whole lot. Which I think really ties in actually to the work that you do and looking at something like healthcare, which is the field that you're in in that industry. You know, one of the things you end up with as a problem where this really lines up with behavioral science. You know, for anyone who's a human, you probably know that even when you are, you have the best of Intentions you, you plan to do something, you want to do something, you know, you should do something. We don't always do those things. Right. No matter how much we want to and that we're. Even if we're, you know, properly motivated, it seems like it should be in that way. And that's really why behavioral science even exists as a field, because people don't always do and often don't do what we think they should or they know they should. And so in healthcare, this is a real problem with compliance and not just like regulatory compliance, which is its own thing, but for compliance of getting people to take their medications on time, to do tests, to go meet with their doctors, to do whatever the advice was given. You know, how has this presented itself for you and what you do?

Yeah, it's so prevalent, I think that unfortunately, I mean, we've been hearing about it this whole time at this conference. You are surrounded by noise in and out of your daily life. And so. And sometimes a lot more exciting noise than what you'll ever get from your healthcare provider or your health plan or, you know, it's just something that you don't want to think about. It's something that for most cases, health is so future. So how do you actually connect that, you know, kind of overcome that present bias that we all live in and actually start to, you know, recognize that the decisions I'm making now are really going to impact me later. And because I, I mean I, I love what I do because I get to. There's so much within healthcare, there's so many different avenues. You know, whether it be prevent, whether it's adherence or condition management and multiple condition management. I'm always getting to learn different things, different perspectives, just different people and how they are tackling the barriers to their healthcare. So yeah, there's so much there, I don't want to go on forever about all the nerdiness healthcare.

Yeah, well, and that's, you know, we're here for some nerdiness to be shirts, you know, the brainy business after all. True. And so with that, you know, you think about something that, you know, like we said, people know they should do but maybe isn't the most exciting thing to be doing. And when you look at healthcare too, of like doing self testing or whatnot, you really end up in this space of. So one of my very favorite concepts in behavioral science is time discounting, which is, you mentioned, you know, a present bias. And this is also, I like to call it the I'll start Monday effect. So any of those, we've all had that moment. You know, you have an extra drink on Saturday night, or you eat a piece of cake or whatever, and you say, oh, you know, this is the last one. And on Monday, I'm going to start my diet and exercise program. And you spend all day Sunday getting rid of everything and finding that triathlon you're going to sign up for and planning your whole schedule. And you set the alarm to get up and run in the morning. You feel super pumped. And then the alarm goes off, right. And you feel like a completely different person. Right. You go, oh, that's now. I obviously didn't get good enough sleep. And for the new me, I deserve this moment. I'm going to hit snooze, get one more day, and then tomorrow I'm going to get up and run. And then it happens again. If you even set that alarm for the next, and you just sort of give up on all of it. And this question of why we feel like a completely different person when we wake up that next day. Actually, you know, research has shown that when we think about ourselves in the future, our brain will light up as if we're thinking about a completely different person. And I know you know this, and so this is for the audience here. And so with that, it's really important when we think about things like healthcare compliance. So when the doctor says, I'm going to need you to do X, Y or Z, these are the medications you need to take. This is the precaution you need to do. This is when you make the appointment and you're setting it off into the future. It's really easy to commit future Melina to do all of those things. It feels super easy. But then in the moment when it's me, I might forget or I do something else. So how do you even overcome that type of problem? And I know you have a really fascinating case study of a. A specific test that people are maybe even, like, definitely not excited about.

Yeah, yeah. So much of that, like, with the intent, and you're familiar, and we maybe have heard about different versions of it here. The science of intent, the existence of the dreaded, say, do gap. You know, I want to. Like you said, I want to be all addicted to my peloton. But then, you know, I had that long, crazy meeting, and, like, my current self is just like, no, I'm not messing with it. And so healthcare, I feel like every. It's. Every problem's different. Sometimes we're dealing with completely different audiences. You know, Medicaid versus Medicare. Where within Medicaid Medicare are we running analysis of a member's social determinants of health? So are they actually living in an area where we know just based on that zip code that they're gonna already be prepared, exposed to having more barriers to their health than others? So specifically around one of those case studies that we ran that was again, how do we bring the world of behavior science, which is so cool and exciting and very well accepted here at iiex? How do you bring that to the world of healthcare that's so regulated and so compliant? Health plans are very specific about how they've always talked to their members. Some of that authority bias or white coats syndrome that you see where someone might be so in the moment in front of their doctor, they're like, I'm gonna do it. But then they get home and they don't have that consistent support system or nudge. And so for us, we worked with a major health plan here in the states around their Medicare population and getting folks, it was actually a bit of Medicare and Medicaid. So we kind of ran two different versions of this outreach. But we were trying to get folks to actually sign up for getting a in home colon cancer kit. And so for colonoscopies, there's a lot of options. There's like the full on colonoscopy, there's doing the home test kit, which has to be done more on a yearly basis. But it's something that folks who don't, who are really fearful of that full colonoscopy option, we're seeing a lot more people that are interested in just doing the yearly one because for whatever it is, there's a lot of anxiety about a colonoscopy, and rightfully so, especially if you've never done it. It's a lot of prep and I think a lot of that uncertainty and sort of friction costs that that creates. It's just the culling. Test kits are sort of seen as the lesser of two evils. But in order to actually get people to do that, we also just have to first get them engaged. Are they listening to us? That's one of the major issues. And then once they are, what's the best way to actually get them to sign on for that? And so we were really interested based off of studies done by Katie Milkman and I believe it was Angela Duckworth around endowment effect. And they had done it around also flu vaccinations. And really this concept of creating ownership over the thing and this is like your benefit. And so what we Wanted to test and we did an a B test around this was sort of phrasing it normally like the health plan normally did of, you know, would you like to get a colon test? You know, would you like one sent to you? Yes or no, easy sort of opt out or opt in. And then versus our sort of behavior science messaging using that endowment effect was really, hey, you're due for this thing. We actually have reserved your colon test kit for you. Would you like us to send it? And so it was like, yes, I'd like to claim my kit, or no, I don't want my kit. And so really strengthening the decision to opt out, but making that sense of ownership that this is something that's already part of their benefits, something that they already have ownership over and therefore ultimately trying to drive a higher engagement with that and driving the action of them signing up.

Yeah. And for everyone that's not familiar, that endowment effect is once we've been given something, we like it more than and we will value it higher than the things that we don't yet have. And also in this case, there's a little bit of the psychology of not. It's like omission versus commission. Right. So in this case of, hey, do you want to have an appointment? Do you want to schedule something? And you don't do anything, and even if something bad happens, it doesn't feel like it was your fault. Whereas if it said, hey, we reserved this for you, and like you said, with the behavior change for good initiative and the work that Katie Milkman did with the team on flu vaccines, you know, in that case it was, we reserved an appointment for you at this time, are you going to come to your appointment? And same as, like, we have your kit, are you going to do it? Do you want it sent to you still? But when it's yours and you say no, and then if something happens, it feels like it's kind of your fault. And people want to avoid that feeling like it could have been prevented and it has something to do with them. And so the likelihood that they'll say yes is helpful. And like you said, it overcomes this psychological barrier in that what if of like, is it going to cost me money? Is it something that's going to come back on the other side? Like, what if I say yes and then this happens? Are they trying to trick me? All these things that people like to kind of run wild in their own brains on. And when it's like, hey, it's here for you, it's yours, the end, it Just feels a little bit safer and easier to accept. But people still have the option to opt out. So with this, you reframed that message a little bit, also including the your, like, do you want your kit versus a kit? Which is very powerful as well. And so what happened?

Yeah. So ultimately, when we looked back at the data we were seeing it was over 10, closer to 15% increase in the folks that got the messaging with the endowment effect that were signing up to receive their kits. So super substantial from the health plan's perspective, they were getting such minimal results. And this was actually one of their first tries at doing SMS versus IVR as well. So we had that. We saw that SMS on its own. The initial messaging, even without endowment effect, was higher up from what they had been working with. But that added increase of using endowment effect just really pushed it further. And then with that, we were able then to analyze and plan for the next thing, which is ultimately, okay, we can send you a kit, but you have to also do that kit and return that kit. And so there's then that bit of effort. And how do you actually lower that perceived effort for the member and try to make them think that it feels easy? So that's our next test that we're working on is how do we actually also boost all those people that got excited and did opt in? How do we make sure that they're on that tail end also completing it and sort of sticking true to that commitment that they made?

Right. And so have you been looking already into some things that you might consider testing? Like as you look at that problem. Right. So there. What I love about this is behavioral science isn't just a thing that we put, you know, at the end. I love Michael Hallsworth saying it's not a tool that we use where we're like tightening the, you know, at the end, like, beep, beep, beep, beep, like we did it. Yay. But it's that lens. Everything should be looked at through human experience. Experience and how people think and really make decisions. And so, you know, you have the. Just even opting in to get the kit is one spot, right. And then we have. But we have these other nudgeable moments and points where people could leave and not do the thing that they're supposed to do. And as we've already said that they want to do, right. They want to have this awareness. And if they opted in, they intended to complete the test. But then there are some other barriers here. So what happens at the point of opening the box, taking the Test putting the sample back and then mailing it and do we have to be putting a stamp on it or is it prepaid postage and where can I drop this thing off and what is that like and do I have to schedule for someone to come and get it or you know, all the questions that.

Come back in my head.

Right, well, share a little bit more then about kind of the thought process as you look at and thinking for everyone else that's here, that's in very likely a different industry that you're in. How do you even approach a problem like that and pick those phased points. Right, because you can't do everything all at once. You started with that opt in being a first important moment and then there are these other things. So how do you prioritize and look at that bigger problem?

Yeah, so it's like you said, it's like we're taking the overall view, the journey and then we're stepping in and really like, you know, taking a microscope to these mini moments. And so like even something as simple like we've said, you have the best intentions. It can be the same as, you know, health is like, oh, maybe I don't want to do this but I sometimes like I put something in my shopping cart and I forget about it and sometimes I do that on purpose and I'm like if you remember and come back to it, you get it. But, but sometimes it's just oh, I like someone called me or something like that. And so you see it now where you'll get those emails that are like, hey, you left this in your cart. We do something similarly within the healthcare space, within these offers is we know that the time we're constantly looking at best time of day data based on the audience when would be the best time to send. But that's still not the best time to send for everyone. So we always add in additional nudges or reminders to try to actually get more engagement to that initial ask. And it's pretty incredible. Sometimes we see double the initial engagement rate just from a four hour later reminder or a 24 hour later reminder. Almost always we're seeing anywhere between 10 to 20% just from sending just a little light nudge. And again it's because the most part people probably want to do it, they're just busy and maybe they're dropping off their kids. And so that's one piece. We're very mindful of the barriers and so everyone here been familiar with AI talk and so our platform is also sort of sitting on that AI Using natural language processing. And so we also try to get really creative in that almost the gray space so we can design as much as we want in terms of the pathways that folks are going to follow based off of again, our best understanding of the research and insights that we've seen. But in a way, some of the responses that we get back are then, you know, building into more of our understanding of where members might be facing barriers. So we build out then in the background response sets for that like if someone, even if we say, you know, this is free and reserved for you, we almost always still see like I can't afford this, how much is this going to cost me? Understandably, health care is confusing as all heck. And people like it's not somewhere that you necessarily want to lose all your dollars. You know, it's so it's like people that are on that fixed income thinking about that, you know, monthly budget, how much do I actually have to pay for this? So even if we try to say it, they'll come up with it. And so that might not be one of the set responses we were looking for, but they could respond at any time throughout this journey that we've set up and said cost, say transportation, different pieces that will trigger them to go down these different journeys and get those resources. Which is great because we'll do these barriers analysis. And then once we've actually provided the resource, kind of overcome that barrier that they're telling us, we then do sort of a follow up, barriers, intent, sort of like, okay, now that, now that you've gotten this, like do you want to get your colon test kit? And we saw of those who had a barrier uncovered, over 30% who had originally like said no, they weren't interested, who then learned a little more and then signed up for it. So there's really power in overcoming the barriers and focusing on that. And so I spend a lot of time nerding out in like the member response data, what are people saying and how, you know, how can we almost categorize that? Are there potential new barriers that we want to position around a certain topic? All the fun.

Yeah, yeah. And so just to make sure, you know, for the audience listening and everything too. So you're saying with the tie in with AI so what I hear from that is so if like you said you're doing some testing with SMS and like starting to use that or that was part of this process. So you're sending the text message about how the kit's reserved for you and then if someone responds and Specific words come up. So you were thoughtful about it in advance that the objections people might have would have to do with cost or transportation or difficulty of use or whatever. Right. So then you can see what pops up. The AI is going to be reading to know, okay, they mentioned cost and so they get this type of a response to be able to help in that first layer of the most common stuff. You know, looking at our Pareto principles there. Right. So the 80% of things that people may have a concern with are gonna fall into these, I don't know, five categories of concern. So we've created journeys for those. And then for people that, you know, maybe the AI can't do the response, there's maybe a person or something that can be following up in the process to help those people move forward.

Yep. Yeah. And so we really wanna allow for barriers to be uncovered, like, because the, like, consumers never know what journey you've developed for them. They don't know if their barriers are going to get answered over here, over there, like tomorrow, whenever, like, they're very like, in the moment I'm having this barrier, like, answer, like, tell me how to overcome that. And so I think like, the beauty of this is that we have that the AI and NLU listening the background and we've kind of set up those, you know, think those listeners for those certain types of categories so we can keep the conversation going. So many texts, like, I know with some of my health plans, I'll respond and they'll be like, sorry, we don't know what you're talking about. Like, you know, like, call your doctor, call the pharma. And it's like, oh, no, I'm never going to do that. So I'm just not going to get my medication, I guess, like, you know, but so how do you, you know, we have those listeners. But then if someone, when we ask, you know, do you want this test? If they say no, we also then dive into a barriers analysis and we're really framing it around, like using social proof, using relatedness. These are things that other members said that are getting in the way for them. Are any of these a struggle for you as well? You know, something along those lines that then takes them through those, allows them to identify it at that point us to address it and overcome it. And then ultimately again see that lift in folks who end up committing to the health action.

Yeah, and I think there's an interesting lesson there too in that even so some people feel the need to respond to something in general and be a kind Person and potentially in the age demographic you're talking to feels more obligated to respond to stuff versus as long as they're not saying stop, right? Like leave me alone, I'm opting out. If people have some sort of a response, you know, there's probably some level, especially with something like this, I know that I should do that thing, but I'm gonna put it off or I don't like thinking about it, so I'm just gonna say, no, no thanks, I'm okay. And so the door is not fully closed. And when it is something like healthcare and something that is really helpful for them and that long term value, very low barrier to entry for this type of test, it's free and all that. When you can say, are you sure?

Maybe not.

This is something where when we look at moments of friction, I know the next example we're gonna talk about. You talk about friction here. Able to make it easy, make it simple. And when you add in those partitions or points where you say, are you sure? When someone's looking to buy in that buying journey, that's a point where people can bail out and you lose them. So you want to make it as simple and streamlined as possible. In the case of something that you're trying to get someone to opt in, especially for something that's really important for them, adding those partitions of like. But are you sure? Because a lot of people like you do this, like people your age, you know, 80, 90, whatever percentage of people get their colonoscopy or do these cancer screenings like they're supposed to. What about you? You know, this might be something there, there's room for those nudges when you look at that in a different way. And you know, we don't have to be crazy aggressive or anything. Like when they're done, they're done. And that's okay. But it's usually there's a little bit of room beyond where we feel like it's over. And so it's something to keep in mind, especially when it's something so valuable like health care and preventing cancer. Right. Like that's something that people would want to know about. I do want to make sure we have some time to talk about the additional study that you've done some work on. Because it's so, so interesting looking at video with diabetic eye screening and looking at loss aversion in a different way. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, that was definitely a passion project of mine and something that I'll give away The Ending now was successful. So I think like we've had a few sessions here that have talked about storytelling, we've seen a few different chats that have talked about neuroscience or your emotions and how that activates engagement or like a purchase or something like that. And so we were really interested in, obviously when you're in an emotional state, you might be more likely to make a decision or might make the wrong decision, but emotions definitely do impact that decision making process. For this client, we were specifically looking at the eye exams for diabetic populations. So it's something that that population is encouraged to do yearly. And that's really because problems can happen so quickly. And so by having that preventative steps, it's really taking control of it. But again, for the folks that have to do it so regularly, they need to overcome that present bias. They need to start thinking about future them. And that's so hard in the moment to think about. Like, you know, they use the big words and like glaucoma and this and that and they're scary and what the heck does it mean? Most people are just like, you know, I don't, I don't know, what does that look like? One of the presentations I think I saw yesterday was how do you actually show people versus tell people? And so text messages, sms, great, they're gonna get read most of the time. So like 90, 90 something percent. But are they actually taking action on it? Obviously not everyone or we have a lot healthier America. But for this specifically we wanted to create a video that could activate that storytelling effect, sort of that neuroscience of the brain on stories that it's activating all these different parts of your brain and memory and emotion and get it to encourage folks to schedule that eye examination. And so the video itself was utilizing loss aversion. And what it did, I wish, you know, we could show it. I'll try to describe it in the best of my abilities, but it was from, it was, you know, it was almost as if you were the person viewing the screen and the. And so you were walking down the street, maybe walking your dog and all of a sudden there were like these, there was like these black spots and it was like, you know, this is like what it looks like if you have glaucoma. And you know, then the next one would be like someone like holding maybe their grandchild. And again different types of spots, different things coming up that are affecting your vision. Like this is the other thing that can happen and it ends with someone walking with a walking stick. And then it just goes black. And it's trying to say, like, there is such a real risk of, you know, blindness from. And all of these risks of inaction when it comes to it, and really trying to connect the person who's living in that present bias to their future state. And I think of it, but when I see it, I get emotional. It definitely activates like that. And when we ran it, what the study was, was one message. Was the message, you know, we still were trying to use loss aversion within the message just of, you know, like, take care of your eye health. There's, you know, this risk. We sent. We added the link for them to try and make it easy just to go schedule. But in the experiment, it was to see if, when we added that video and at the end of the video is where we had the call to action and the link for them to go schedule, would that boost the overall click rates. And we saw, like an over 200% increase in folks who, after seeing the video, took that step and scheduled. So it was just incredible to see because as someone who worked on creating it, it had an emotional impact on me. I am not even a member of this population necessarily. And so to see that it also was driving that emotional aspect and resonating with them was just really powerful.

Yeah, well. And then not even seeing it. But as you were describing it, and I don't know if the audience that's listening later, that's here. I got goosebumps as you were talking about it. And in this way of, like, I want to prevent that, like, the idea of it. And I think you mentioned to me when we were talking about this in some of our prep conversations, that part of it where they're, you know, playing with the grandchild and then the spots actually cover the face, and so then you can't see them anymore as you're trying to, like, oh, gosh, I know. Like, I've just. Even in the moment, it's hard to talk about. Right. Because it's something that you just really hate. But you. And saying, like, you might lose your eyesight, go, okay, right. It just. It seems weird that it doesn't have that same impact on us, but seeing it, experiencing it, and then in the moment, just like, imagine, you know, if you don't have the power of video, you're able to say things like, imagine this to help someone to be in that moment. You know, we need emotion. People need to feel something to make a decision. And stories are a really great way in order to do that, to get them to have that emotion. And it doesn't have to be that real story, but that video of something that people want to avoid. And you're in that moment again. What I love about these two examples, they're so different. They're very, very different experiences, very different moments, very different things you're asking people to do and to prevent. However, you know, they're using a lot of the same tactics, like you know, loss aversion in both of them and thinking about even that like endowment effect. We're overcoming that time discounting problem in both of them. But the slightly different application and how that shows just how wide reaching behavioral science is and that the same concepts can be applied in so many different ways. Which is one of my very favorite things about the field in general.

Yeah, I think for me, like, you know, content has kind of always been my where I've lived content and like the overall design. And so this idea of, you know, narratives for healthcare is just so exciting because we know one of the talks yesterday, I love how she simplified it, but you know, really was like, you know, we prefer gains over losses or you know, things we follow the crowd where she talks about, you know, we're all sitting here with these headphones and like, well, this is weird. No one was like, no, I don't want the headphones. But we are this social animal and so we're very much looking to what other people do. And in healthcare especially, because there's such a high level of uncertainty, what am I actually supposed to do? And so one of our other things that has been so impactful is really pulling on self determination theory with relatedness and then just overall social proof, social norms is we have recently in our prenatal and pregnancy course that we created, we've actually had moms who we give them phones, we give them recorders. They actually are videotaping themselves throughout their day, getting ready for their prenatal visits, like talking about the concerns that they're having, just that real lived experience. Like when you're so maybe nervous about it yourself or have questions or don't even know what questions you have. Like, it's just sparking that engagement in folks healthcare that they might not otherwise get somewhere else. And we just see such engagement in those videos and folks really tuning in for them and like, you know, watching them all the way through. Like because of our NLU and a lot of the times we provide moments for open feedback, you know, folks will say like, wow, this, this helped me so much. Like I didn't know This, I didn't know this. Like, just like, you know, that is what makes me so happy about the work that I do is like, seeing the actual impact that it's having on like, individuals and their health.

Yeah. I will say I don't think I ever googled more than when I was pregnant. Is this normal? I don't know. That's a definite tool that we all end up using in that. So as you think about, you know, other fields, we talked about it a little bit. But like, if you were working on a different project or to give advice to people who are here that work in research, that work in insights, what advice would you give them as they're now hopefully, I'm sure, very interested in the idea of applying some behavioral science into their work. You know, where would you say that they should start?

Yeah, I think with all of these, like the key, like you said, they're so different. So it was. It always starts with that understanding of the audience and either whether it's like actually working with them, like we did with some of the mothers when we were designing that course, or working with folks that had diabetes and actually following along and seeing some of their journey. So I think really trying to get as close to as you can to the people that you're trying to change the behavior of and really trying to understand it, understanding their barriers. I think that's one of the hugest things. And my. At the end of the day, if, when I tell my team to focus on one thing and I think it's applicable across, you know, all the work everyone's doing here, as we're trying to get people to do something or not maybe think here it's a lot of trying to get people to do something versus not do something. It's like, how do you make it so damn simple? Like, you know, like the perceived effort, even if, even if the thing isn't as easy as it is, how do you make the perception of doing it easier? And so I see a lot, like, I always like to learn from, you know, different companies and their products that are doing this really well, like Duolingo. And, you know, how are they pulling people back in to like, learn about languages? And they're doing it in these small tidbits. And even like the madness of like, when the screen's loading, like, that's for a purpose. And so I think, you know, even if you have to build in, I don't know, these kind of moments of like, sunshine where the friction is to try to just make it still feel Easy. And I think like when people are shopping or, you know, just in the market for products or things like that, again, how do you remove complexity a lot and just make it seem like it's gonna be a simple experience?

Yeah, I love that. I have an episode on Disney, which of course is the, you know, quintessential as one of the first places where you take something like the line that is eternity to go on a very, very short ride. And that could be a real barrier for people because you don't want to stand in the line. But there are people and you know, going over to Harry Potter World is another example, one of our favorite things in places. But there are people that stand in the line, go through the whole line for, you know, over an hour to see everything in that experience at Universal and then leave. They don't even ride the ride because the experience of the line has been turned into something magical, something they're excited to, to be able to see and experience. And so I think that step back, like you're saying here instead of saying, how can we make this less awful? And often you get so myopic with our problems, right to where we say like, okay, well, it's a ten minute wait. How can we make it a nine minute wait? Which for the person in line is nothing. Right. It still sucks. And they don't want to be there. But if you say, how can we make this amazing that people might want to wait. Yeah, they're excited to be here. I recently heard something where there's a. And I forget what the conference call company is, but they actually hired a band that wrote a song that's called I'm on Hold. And it's like people say they love to listen to the song where it will play, you know, while you're on hold waiting for your meeting to start. And I, you know, of course listen to it and it's fun and kind of funny and just like an interesting little joke song to be listening to while you wait for your conference to start. And versus just like your call is important to us, which, like, it's not. You're lying.

We know.

It doesn't matter.

Yeah, you rang? Just too true on that Harry Potter World. But that line, I was like, I'm in Hogwarts. I know, it's amazing. I love it.

I know. My husband and I, when we first went and one of the lines, there wasn't a line. And you're all like, no, oh no. But I wanted to see.

You got to go fast. And then like people And I was like, slowing everyone down.

I'm like, but look at the little things. Yeah, I know we could definitely nerd out on Harry Potter, but to save everyone, to spare you all, we won't. And we'll kind of go from here. So, again, thank you so much, Eden. And as you look to, we'll just leave it as like the future for you of what you're excited. If you were going to do another test or you were going to look at a space that you think is really exciting, what do you think is future of behavioral science kind of moving forward that you are most excited about?

Yeah, well, I think for me it's like, do you stay in the tricky world of healthcare? I think the part that I've been loving most, especially about being at a conference like this and the lovely world of LinkedIn, is I am so inspired by what everyone else is doing. And it's always like sparking these moments for me of like, okay, but how could I get to some kind of version of that in healthcare? And so I think like, on the daily, I'm kind of like, you know, even during the chats here, I'm just like, okay, well, how could I maybe apply more of that neuroscience angle or the storytelling or the narratives? I think that for me, my next one of my next a B test with one of those health plans is going to be around breast cancer screening and mammography. So which again, so damn important, but scary. And if you've had one, you know, like, it's. There's a lot of discomfort. And so part of the thing that we're trying to do there is actually getting knowing that one of the biggest aspects to help with engagement and boost motivation is like seeing other women going through it, thinking of like, your sisters, you know, your mother, your aunts, like, and stuff. And so we're actually, you know, bringing together women in these ways, being able to share some of their stories in order to just drive also some of that social aspect of it. And one of the things the clients we're interested in testing is actually sending a message that then they can share with their friends and family. And so seeing not only the impact we're making necessarily on these individual health plan members, but their entire extended group, providing them a post that they can put on Instagram, providing them with a pre, like written kind of text that they can send to their friends and families, maybe with a link to a video. And so really what I love about that is health plans as we know they're there to make money but we have some of them, you know, that are. That we can really push to try these ideas that are more about their bottom dollar and really are about, like the healthcare of everyone at that point.

Yeah. And I think that's another opportunity where people kind of get it, tend to get it wrong of what we think should resonate with people. And I know that. And the study is from a long time ago, but where it was that messaging of. And I don't know what the stat is now, but it was like one in four women will get breast cancer. Right. But what you hear that and you think that's gonna shock people because it's like, you know, at least this many people. And so this will be part of your group. But then you look and it's like, well, it won't be, you know, we're the one in, you know, the one. It won't be from the four of us because it's like, then we add, there are eight people total and we're in the, you know, six that are safe. Right. Sort of a deal. Like, you feel like you've got more room there. So that's like social proof comes in the wrong way in that hurting behavior. And so it makes it so it doesn't have the impact that we want it to. And it can actually make it so people are less likely to go and get screening and take preventative measures when you message the wrong way.

Right.

Which, yeah.

And there's a lot of confusion around numbers in healthcare. Numbers everywhere. I'm not a math quiz and I think I talked earlier with saying, you know, that like, images are everything. And so, like, you can say, yeah, one in four, but like, then the power of like an infographic that's showing like, you know, the 1 and the 4 and like, numbers is something that is. So that's like an area I'm very interested in exploring more is just people are so quick to rattle off stats, but the majority of our country, they don't like, okay, literacy levels are low. Health literacy levels are even lower. And so how do you really be mindful of simplifying those things or using an image or a video that actually makes that understandable, like, jumps that literacy gap.

Awesome. Well, thank you again, Eden, for taking the time to chat with me today. For everyone who's really excited to learn more about you and connect, what's their best way to do?

So I hang out on that LinkedIn, so come find me. And I'm always happy to chat, especially for folks interested in doing more of this or learning more about this. I'm just really happy to support people in that.

Awesome. Well, we'll definitely have links to your information in the show notes@thebrainybusiness.com for everyone who's listening to this after the fact. And just thank you so much again for being here today. And again, I'm Melina Palmer of the Brainy Business and have a wonderful rest of iiex North America. Thank you.

Thank you again to Eden Brownell for joining me on the show today. Or then what got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I always love when there are real world examples from companies doing testing and being able to show how small changes like a difference in word choice or imagery or just considering the flow of the process can make such a huge impact. And especially in the real world, really thinking through the user experience is such a key component of behavioral design, and it's something where it's often hard to get out of our own way and really understand where the other person is coming from. We say things like, well, if this were me, but almost always the user isn't you. They're often nothing like you, and not just because you aren't in the demographic or living that real experience, but because you're thinking about this from a logical conscious planning place. You're thinking of what you or they should do or would aspire to do, not what they will actually do. As I said at the top of the show and we discussed throughout the conversation, people know they should take their medication, they know they should do preventative cancer screenings, they know all the shoulds and they likely even want to and plan on doing those things. Understanding why they you don't the real why, which may be something that seems silly, is critical to incorporating behavioral economics to help solve the problem. This looks at our E and G in nudges as well, which are to expect error and give feedback. Yes, I'm definitely linking to those episodes for you in the show Notes to help people naturally make better decisions. Expecting the errors like thinking you will do this when you have more time or forgetting to mail back the box is important as you design the process. You can then give feedback at the right times, which can be as simple as thoughtful reframing to avoid losses rather than promoting gains to help nudge that behavior. Again, I love when small things make a big difference, and I think this is a great addition to our Summer of Storytelling series of sorts here on the show. Telling the right story in the right way at the right time, where the person watching the video let's say can actually see see their eyesight deteriorating and experience what it would be like to not see their grandchildren is enough to motivate them to schedule the appointment to take the step. It doesn't have to be big to have such a big win and impact. Whether you're in healthcare or any other business, you can do the same thing. And yes, even in a very small business, start by thinking about the experience and it may be a good idea to do some interviews or observe behavior of your clients or customers, and it varies by company and business type. Knowing these journeys and asking great questions are key to understanding and shifting behaviors when it comes time to implement your interventions. Just like Eden and the Impulse Mobile team. And of course, if you want help as you go along this journey, I do offer consulting for people in business just like you. Head on over to the BrainyBusiness.com to learn more and see how we can work together as we close out the show. Don't forget about those show notes, which include links to all those related past episodes, including with Sarah from Walmart, Greta from Maker's Mark and Beatrix from Mars in past live interviews at iiex North America and iiex Europe, as well as episodes on behavioral storytelling and designing for decisions. You'll also find ways to connect with Eden and me and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com3 17 and thank you again to Green Book for having me back on the iiex North America Live Podcast stage. And to Eden Brownell, of course for joining me on the show today. And then it was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.