324. Decoding Organizational Culture: How Ethnographic Research Can Transform Your Company with Dr. Felicity Heathcote-Marcz (refreshed episode)

Welcome to episode 324 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. Today's episode is all about ethnography and why it matters in business.

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You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

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Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Today's episode is all about ethnography and ethnographic research and why it matters in Business with Dr. Felicity Heathcote Marks. I'm really excited to be refreshing this episode for you today, which originally aired in January of 2021, because observational research and being able to really pay attention to what's going on with your current research or potential customers is so important, and ethnography is such an important way to make those connections. Felicity will of course explain what ethnographic research is for anyone who isn't yet familiar, and as you'll hear, connecting with Felicity was the first time I recall learning the name ethnography for something I'd always just sort of grouped into observational research and an area of qualitative research. I, of course, now see it all the time, and it's funny to think that I didn't know more about it back then. The reason I'm refreshing this episode with Felicity today is because of our guest for this upcoming Friday's episode, Christian Meshbia, author of the new book look, which is absolutely fascinating and all about growing your skills of true observation, really seeing and intuiting and feeling before forming an opinion. And of course that felt related to ethnography, which is why I wanted to get your brain buzzing on the possibilities and benef benefits in this conversation with Felicity, which can lay the groundwork for that episode on Friday with Christian. Don't forget that there are links for everything, including past episodes, books like look and articles all waiting for you in the show. Notes for this episode, which are found within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 324 all right, let's talk about ethnographic research. Dr. Felicity Heathcote Marks, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thank you so much, Melina. Really nice to be here.

Yeah. So excited to have you. I know we were talking about how we got acquainted and that you had reached out to me, but I would love if you can just share a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do in your own words. And I know we're going to define some of these things as we go, but give the initial spiel and then I will dig in for the questions. Because your title and background is different than anyone we've had on the show yet before. So I am very excited about that. So tell us about you.

Amazing. Thank you. I work for Atkins, which is an engineering and transport consultancy, and I am their resident ethnographer, or cyborg ethnographer, as some people prefer to call me. So what that means is I am the point of contact in my organization for ethnographic research. So I lead and conduct quite a lot of ethnographic projects and deep dive research, all to do with the transport industry. So that can be from looking at future trends and future mobilities, which is bit of a specialist area of mine. So particularly things like mobility as a service and connected and autonomous vehicles. So what are the futures of these kinds of technologies from an ethnographic perspective? So from a point of view of what's really going on in localized context for user groups and for specific kinds of users who might have really specialist needs, we can go into that a bit more. But also I lead quite a few projects which are more traditional ethnography. So you're going out into the field and studying how people currently use public transport, how people currently drive, and what kind of signage is having the most impact on the highways, for example. I've done a few projects looking at that and several projects looking at the kind of ethnographic angle on incident management. So things like breakdowns. So what happens when people break down in their car or other kinds of breakdowns? More metaphorical breakdowns occur in terms of journeys and transportation. So I definitely do a lot of ethnography, but I also do more general consultancy as well for Atkins. And I've also done some of my own work previously as well.

Awesome. And so I think it's really important that we go ahead and define ethnography. And I know from when you would reach out to me and I was looking into what you do, and I had that moment of what is that? Exactly. And when I found the definition, I was curious. And as I had said to you before we started recording to make sure I wasn't completely off base and thinking that it was sort of like anthropology, but not. So can you explain what ethnography is in more. Hate to say layman's terms, but. But for those of us who don't know what that means, how Would you explain it?

Absolutely. It's. It's something I spend a lot of my doing at my company, which is full of engineers who might not have ever heard that word before or know what that's all about. So I do quite a few kind of webinars and education sessions around ethnography. So you're absolutely right. It is a methodology that originates from anthropology and traditionally it is very much a method that would have been used by traditionally trained anthropologists who would go out into the field which again, traditionally would be cultures which were quite far removed from western cultures. So there are quite a lot of famous anthropologists that have, in the kind of 19th and 20th centuries when anthropology was in its infancy, they would go out and study remote tribes, you know, in America and Africa. And that's kind of how the method began. So studying cultures which are far removed from one's own personal experience and really trying to understand them from the ground up. So we've come a very long way in sort of anthropology, but also other areas that have spawned ethnographic schools aside from anthropology, since the good old days, the Clifford and all those kind of big, you know, Margaret Mead, all those big names, anthropology. So in the sort of latter part of the 20th century, there became a lot more of a business interest in terms of anthropological research methods and an interest from organizations as to how can we utilize some of these more anthropological methodologies to help us in our business, to make sure that we've got brilliant business, to make sure that we're understanding our customers properly and to understand the nuances that occur specifically in local contexts where one size doesn't always fit all. You know, you need to have that really kind of in depth knowledge of your customer or consumer group, for example. And I think where we are now with, you know, in terms of ethnography, we're a really interesting kind of place where the practice has matured and we've, we've got a lot of networks now among organizational ethnographers that just weren't there even 10 or 15 years ago, where we can share kind of knowledge and we can evolve our practice a little bit more. So it's become a little bit more mainstream now to have an organizational ethnographer at certainly the big blue chip companies. A lot of large operations will have a kind of either sociologist or an anthropologist, a traditionally trained anthropologist or a specialist ethnographer who specializes in the study of culture in organisations. That's what I do. So, you know, rather than going into contexts which are really, really exotic and different in that sort of traditional way, which, you know, these days that's quite problematic for a lot of reasons. And, you know, you've got all the issues around white privilege and, you know, making sure that we want to be co creating knowledge with the people that we're studying, not kind of saying, oh, well, we as researchers know so much more than those that we're researching, because, you know, that those kind of hierarchies don't. Don't really apply anymore and they're not helpful. So these days, myself and other organizational ethnographers normally study the cultures that we're in so that we're much more close to. And that poses lots of other challenges because it's a bit like, you know, that saying, the fish can't see water because it's there, it's just surrounded by the water. But it can also pose a lot of opportunities by having an ethnographer integrated into a business and organization, because you've got somebody there who's trained to be an active listener. So not to always be thinking about a specific organizational agenda or a political agenda, but actually be always listening to different stakeholder perspectives and making sure that they're developing relationships at different levels of the organisation. So from, for example, those who might be dealing with customers, customer representatives who are at that cold face, if you like, those operational staff, all the way up to senior management, all of those levels really create the culture of an organisation. And it's up to the organizational ethnographer to study those spaces, to understand the concerns and the realities of different organizational stakeholders at all those levels and then be kind of providing back to the organization a narrative of that and holding up a bit of a mirror to say, this is what's happening. Did you know that there are some really obvious things here you could be doing to improve your culture and to improve morale or to improve turnover or whatever it might be. An ethnographer is a bit of a jack of all trades, if you like. They can go into all these different organizational contexts and feedback, whether that's to senior leadership or a specific change program or a specific team, to say, this is what's really going on. Did you know that we're not just working in one small silo, but all these possibilities are currently going on in the organization and here's what you should be aware of, here's what's really happening in your local context. And it's the same for ethnographers that go out and study customers. So, yeah, as I said, in the transport sector, that might be Going and doing a company drives with customers on, on the highways, which, which I've done quite a lot of just before the COVID lockdown in, in the uk. So that was quite interesting, you know, to kind of understand what, what are really people thinking and feeling when they're on their journeys, how do people enjoy their, their space in their private car and how that can be really valuable to them. And all of these kinds of really, you know, immersive types of data and types of knowledge that aren't available to other kinds of research methodologies like surveys or, you know, traditional interviews. So I guess that's what kind of ethnography can, can do and can give you really get under the skin.

Yeah, I appreciate Ann taking notes while you're talking, but it's that questioning area. I love to be able to come in as a consultant and be asking those sorts of questions. Appreciate that there is a field that allows for someone to be trained to be able to, even as you become part of the internal culture of a business, being able to look around with the sort of fresh eyes philosophy all the time to where you're constantly looking as if you were an outside observer. I've had a couple of people that I've interviewed recently that have either specifically mentioned or touched on something that I think impacts something that I haven't done an episode on yet. But it may come out before this or maybe after, I don't know. But to do something on the Hawthorne effect, which I feel like could be very inherent in what it is that you are doing. And so the, the Hawthorne effect, essentially, for anyone who's not familiar yet, since there hasn't been an episode, is just when people know that they're being observed, they change their behavior. And so I am curious, does everyone just sort of change when you walk into the room? They assume that you're studying them for some reason. And when you do get into someone's car, I was even having this thought of, you know, do you sit in the backseat and hope they forget that you're there? Do you sit in the passenger seat? So it's more like you're a friend on a road trip, sort of. How does all that work to where you're not impacting the behavior, but you're still able to kind of see what's going on?

Oh, it's such a good question, Nina. So it's an important kind of first step, I think, with ethnography is to be really aware of that and really reflexive and think about the impact that you're having as a, you know, just a body in the space of the people that you're researching. We might have this idea that there's an objective way to collect data and we can come out of the field with this, you know, wonderfully objective and truthful kind of data. And of course, that's never the case for any research methodology. It's always subjective and it's also always fragmented and piecemeal. But with ethnography, it's almost much more important to realize that one can try and go into the field as a bit of a tabula rasa, you know, a blank slate, and not bring your own emotional and, you know, political ideological baggage with you. And one of the key tenets of ethnography is always take your research interlocutor seriously. You know, so whether you're researching a group that you may be politically really disagree with, or you find yourself uncomfortable in a culture that maybe you find is misogynistic, for example, just making up some examples, but it's always really important to just be very aware of one's own feelings about that and one's own baggage that one is bringing into the field. And then the really great thing about ethnography, when it's able to be done properly, I suppose, if I'm going to be purist about it, is the longitudinal aspect of the research. So if we're spending weeks, months, often years as well, with a specific group of interlocutors, that Hawthorne effect really quickly melts away because it's not possible to kind of keep up a pretend display of performance of what's doing, nature of the work dissipates and you become part of the culture. The longer that you are there studying a group, which obviously also has certain risk to it, as in going native. And then one wouldn't be able to necessarily come out as easily. And the people you're researching may feel a little bit betrayed if you do leave them or you do come out of the field. So there's always a little bit of a balance there with ethnography. It's one of the key challenges, though, with doing ethnography in business and organizations. And one of the key challenges that I always find it's time with ethnography. You always want as much time as you can have with, you know, in the field, with if it's multi sited, you know, with your different sites, or if it's one site, you know, you really want to expend as much time as possible with the same people in that site, in that space. But Sometimes that's just not possible because of budget constraints and time constraints of a project. And, you know, businesses, they want results now and it's all about driving productivity, etc. So often it's a case of trying to utilize ethnographic methodologies where one can, in a shorter time span so you don't get the same level of richness of narrative. Or there would certainly be some more purist academic ethnographers who would, you know, just be up in arms about doing ethnography in that way in a kind of very condensed sort of time period. But often if you want to get any of that really great rich data in a business context, it's going to have to be a lot more succinct. So that Hawthorne effect, therefore is still quite a significant issue. And the ways of getting around that would absolutely still, number one, be try and spend more time there. Try and spend as much time as possible. And if you don't have long in terms of, you know, you don't have a year or, you know, six months, if it's possible to spend as much continuous time with a specific group as possible, that always helps because you can try and as quickly as possible, understand the group, meet the group, integrate with the group. It's not always easy to do that with a condensed time period. But if it is possible to spend, say, a full working week, every shift with a group, it's always better than say, spending one day and then coming back three days later and then coming back a week later, because you become just like a visitor rather than part of the culture. In terms of your question about the accompanied drives, the way I like to do those is to sit in the passenger seat with the driver, just us in the car, and just ask them to give a bit of a narrative as to what they're seeing, what they're feeling. And you do find quite quickly, if it's a kind of one, two hour drive, they kind of forget you're there and, you know, they might talk about their own issues around road rage or the things that they would normally be thinking and feeling when they're in the car, or, you know, more personal issues, which again, is something that as an ethnographer you get really used to people talking about such things. And of course, ethics is really important in ethnography and making sure that, you know, all your participant identities are anonymized and everybody feels comfortable speaking to you. And that's another way that you can get around some of those issues of going into a field and people being Suspicious of you or not wanting to give you a lot of information. If they think, oh, are you a spy from management? Or, you know, are you. You going to tell all our secrets to, you know, our competitors or anything like that? It's, it's, you know, trying to say, actually it's completely anonymous. None of this will ever come back to you as individuals. And this is like an opportunity to feedback and to tell your real story. And usually people are really keen to open up and to give a bit of an insight as to the realities of their, you know, whether it's their job or their journey and, you know, that their experience of whatever it is we're studying. So. So lots of ways to get around the Hawthorne effect, but it is certainly still a thing. It's still there.

It's interesting. I was definitely having visions of. It's similar to a documentary filmmaker in a lot of ways, where. And I was thinking about the Office being the American Office, because the British version just didn't go as long, of course. But when you get toward the end of the series, which, you know, don't have to be too worried about our spoilers in this world, because that ended.

A long time ago.

But it was a while ago. Yeah, yeah.

But toward the end, they start actually interacting with the team that is making the documentary. And you see their faces and you hear their voices a little bit, which you didn't for the first several seasons, and then see how they became so, so close to them and we're friends, even though. And then the show comes out and they do have that moment of, oh, I didn't realize they were filming us here and there and this and that, you know, so that's the, I guess the danger on the one side of where a documentary is looking to uncover and expose secrets, regardless of what it does for the person. But where you're saying here in the ethnography piece, when done properly, is more about understanding in generalities that you can only obtain by interacting on an individual level so that you can combine all of the data to be able to say, you know, we sat with 100 people and saw that they all do this one thing, and if we can change this one thing, it will make an impact and doesn't matter who they are, just know that they're on the team and that's where.

Where we're at.

I would love to. Now, so you mentioned a couple of the types of projects, and I know that you've done some work specifically with nudges, behavioral science, and you said, I think it was something that you thought would work well or didn't work in a certain scenario. So let's talk about the behavioral science, behavioral economics piece of some of the research or work that you've done specifically.

Sure, absolutely. So in a transport context, nudges have become, as I'm sure you're quite aware, very popular as a sort of policy tool to solve some of these policy issues and issues around information asymmetries that mean people act in certain ways that aren't necessarily for the social good or aren't seen in a sort of paternalistic way as for the social good. So nudges have been seen as a way to make people shift from the petrol diesel cars to hybrid or electric, or to get people out of their private car, public transport, and particularly also to get people to cycle and walk more, to be more kind of active. So the work that I've specifically been doing in this area is with some local transport authorities in the UK and it's really looking at how can they design specific behavioral nudges, again for their context, that will help support residents in specific cities. So, for example, I've done some work with Transport for Greater Manchester, looking at residents and travellers in Manchester who currently use their car and don't normally use public transport or walk or cycle to work, for example. So thinking about the commuting journey and using behavioral nudges as a way to test whether it's possible to move people out of the private car and onto either public transport or even better, from a government point of view, to be walking and cycling, so you get the benefits to the environment and help the government meet net zero targets and all these great things. A lot of local authorities in the UK now have quite stringent targets around air quality targets. So it's really important for local government in the UK to be promoting sort of active travel and public transport as much as possible and getting people to shift out of their cars. Now, there's obviously a bit of a challenge about that at the moment because of COVID and the issue with the potential for Carmageddon to be around the corner when everyone just gets in their car and people now think that the car is this mode of safety because we're all in our little bubbles and we don't have to interact with other people, other vectors of disease. We can be. Be nice and safe, which is a really new way to look at car travel, because historically car travel and, you know, traveling in private vehicles has been the most dangerous transport mode because you've got the Most accidents happen on the roads, most fatalities, etc. But now in Covid, it's, it's just shifted, shifted the paradigm completely. So it has implications for the kinds of nudges that should and can be developed and also ethical implications around should we still be nudging people out of their car if there's a global pandemic on. And actually it's making people come up against different risks if they're, you know, suddenly moving on to public transport and then, you know, moving across another mode and coming into contact with other people. So the work that I did was before COVID and before this whole sort of, you know, paradigm shift, but in a more traditional kind of business as usual context, governments would be trying to encourage people onto, onto public transport and out of their cars. And so we did a project in Manchester trying to ascertain whether residents would be more likely to cycle or to walk or to use public transport if they were just given a nudge via a text message on their phone, a little kind of ping to them when we knew that they would be undertaking their commute. So just before we knew that they would set off between kind of 8:50 and 9:00am so if we would send them a nudge at say quarter to nine to say, have you considered walking today? And then we would give a little bit more information. So either you would burn this many calories by walking instead of using car or the bike or whichever mode was more kind of appropriate for the length of journey. And we had some really interesting results. It was quite a small sample. It was about 40 people in the, in the sample, so it wasn't huge. But we had some really interesting results. I think about three quarters of respondents wanted to accept the nudge, but they didn't accept the nudge. And then when we explored that later in our kind of post trial interviews, we found that it was really weather dependent. So we had people saying, yes, I definitely want to walk more, I want to use my bike, I want to lose weight, whatever it is, but if it's raining and if it's cold, I'm going to stick to my car. Like, you know, I don't care about the nudge, it's not, doesn't work.

But if it's October in the uk, maybe I don't feel like, want to work today.

That's right, exactly. And so then you get, you know, into that debate around. So are nudges really context dependent? Which is what I would argue for. Sure. So some nudges, like active travel nudges Might be really effective in the summer when people are more likely to be thinking about walking and cycling more anyway. So it's almost just giving them that extra push, that extra bit of information to say you'd be burning this many calories or you'd be saving this much CO2 by walking off that thing instead. Whereas actually in the winter months, what we certainly found is that nudges just aren't, aren't enough of an incentive to move people out of their private cars. And you'd need a much, from what the respondents were telling us, they would need a much greater incentive to do that. So either a disincentive around let's get rid of parking so that people can't drive into city centres and park anymore, which is what a lot of cities in the UK are now doing by providing these kind of car free zones in the city centre, or an incentive to say, actually we'll give you a mobility credit or something to buy a bike or to use the bus for free at a really discounted rate. And it's these kinds of bigger incentives that would be more likely to shift behaviors when the context was not in the favor of the nudge, if that makes sense. That's what we found with that study.

I recently did an interview with a company called Colu and they have. Are you familiar with them?

I'm not, no. Actually, no. Yeah.

Okay. The way that you nodded looked like, oh, really, I know who they are, but we'll hear. No, no, that's good, that's fine. I like having these sort of hidden gem type of interviews on the show and being able to bring light to the cool stuff that's happening that's not mainstream yet. You know, that's one of the things I really like to be able to do. So I spoke with Colu and that's episode 113 of the podcast for when this comes out. And they are in Israel, the UK and in the US and they are using nudges and other behavioral incentives for social good and being able to encourage people to shop with small businesses that they were doing before COVID and now they're doing during that time. And one of the things we had talked about was this piece about masks and encouraging people to wear masks and how that has been proving very difficult. And it's something that from a distance everybody kind of says it's hard to, I don't understand the root of the problem. And so to be able to nudge one way or another is somewhat difficult other than just saying when someone Tells me what to do, I don't want to do it. And we were talking about, in the case of masks, of being able to have it set up almost like a lottery system to where if you are wearing your mask when you're out and then someone sees it, you might win a thousand euro, $1,000 or there's some sort of a drawing of everyone who comes into the store and is wearing their mask, you get a lottery ticket for free. And talking about how with the literary who I've also interviewed on the show before, of turning litter into lottery tickets in the same way, when you throw the garbage away, you might win the state or country lottery. And it seems like there's something in that way where when you do take that even further, step back and look at something where it's really easy to incentivize people to have this possibility of winning something really big. And so you almost wonder if you do, maybe you get a better you multiple tickets or something if you're willing to go on bad weather days than if you go in good weather days. So if you do walk or take ride your bike when it's raining, then you can get five lottery tickets instead of just one or whatever that happens to be, which is just extra chances to win and the prize stays the same. So it could balance out and work and be a nudge that does work, even in bad weather.

It's really interesting actually to hear talking about that project and using a kind of incentivization to encourage things like mask wearing, particularly in the COVID context. It's become quite politicised, hasn't it? Particularly in some countries, whether to wear or not to wear a mask and to follow government advice? Or does that show me as a particular kind of person? If I'm not following government advice, I'm the rebel and sort of standing up to my rights, et cetera. It's become quite controversial, I think it's a biased answer, of course, but from the ethnographic perspective I think it's really interesting because it reflects a lot about a country's culture and whether something like mask wearing is either socially acceptable and then becomes completely socially saturated so that everybody's doing that behavior and following that behaviour, or whether you get that backlash and you get fragmentation and maybe some localities are better at doing it than others and then you have flare ups in some spots and you don't. So for example, in the UK it's almost the opposite. I think that there's a bit of social stigma attached to not wearing a mask. Even though you've got people who have perfectly legitimate reasons to not wear a mask, medical conditions, et cetera. I've seen instances where people will go into shops or be, you know, walking towards a bus stop where you have to wear masks now. And, you know, people will challenge and will say, where's your mask and why are you not wearing a mask? And there's this sort of social pressure which unless you do conform, you're a bit of a social isolate and a bit of a pariah, if you like. So it is interesting how maybe in some countries and in some contexts they might need to be setting up these schemes to incentivize people to be, you know, adhering to these social good behaviors. And in other contexts it's the opposite. People sort of do it as automatic and then they penalize anyone that breaks that code. So it's, it's very, you know, context specific, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. And I am obviously in a country where it is very divided. I would say that there's, there's a large portion that wear the masks and are good and a large portion that don't feel good about it. And I think this does, though touch on the ethnographic research and why it matters, where if you see somebody that has a different opinion and I want to lean back to, on an interview I did with Kwame Christian a few weeks back on the show, which will of course be linked in the show, notes that when you go into a discussion or a negotiation or you make it seem like you just are wanting to ask a question, but really you think I'm going to change your mind when you go in saying you're wrong and I'm right and I'm sure I'm going to listen, but it's just to figure out my argument against you. It's impossible to actually understand what's going on. Whereas the importance of this ethnographic research where if you are able to come in and say, tell me more about that, I can see where you become kind of like the therapist. Right. So we're able to come in and say, be part of that experience and just sort of observe their discussions, their experience and hardships, whatever they happen to be. The issue with doing that in a non mask space is feels like you would have to yourself be willing to not wear a mask to be near, to be able to experience that. So, you know, maybe there's some zoom or whatnot that allows for that. But do you have any thoughts? I feel like that gets kind of at the core of what it is that you do.

Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good point. I think it goes back to that quote I mentioned earlier that, you know, as ethnographers, we have to take our interlocutors seriously. So it's not about us and it's not about what we think or the questions we necessarily want to ask. It's. It really is about being present in a space for a long enough period of time to understand those people you're researching, your interlocutors and the motivations around what they're doing and the reasons that lie behind those motivations. So the assumptions. And it's almost like that iceberg model that comes from Shine. I think Shine's kind of cultural model. So at the top you've got the artifacts which are clear. So the fact somebody doesn't wear a mask, or maybe they wear a T shirt that says I'm not going to wear a mask, or whatever it is that. That's a kind of clear, you know, indication of where of their beliefs and the things that sit underneath that iceberg. But then deep, deep down, you've got all those, you know, dark waters of family background and beliefs and country cultural issues and potentially traumatic events that mean people believe certain things above others. And we get into the whole issue of post truth politics and where that comes from, etc. But absolutely, it's really important from an ethnographic point of view that research is done in a way that's not kind of biased, if you like, or coming in with our own politics and our own assumptions of why people are behaving in a certain way, because that's completely unethicratic and you can make documentaries in that way. Potentially they might not be the most fair or the most kind of objective, but certainly you. You can't really do ethnographic work without taking your interlocutors really seriously and stepping into their worlds. And as you say, that might mean putting yourself at some level of risk and not wearing a mask or. I've done quite a bit of research with traffic officers in the uk, who are the people who go out onto the motorway network and clear up when there's been a crash or there's been a breakdown or when people are stuck, they go out onto the motorway and. And they're always putting their lives at risk in a way, really, although they have a lot of safety protocols around that there's a level of risk. And as an ethnographer, I felt it was important to, if I really wanted to understand their worlds, to be Going along with them and traveling with them in their vehicles and standing on the side of the road with them, observing their work. And sometimes it can be scary as an ethnographer going into dangerous contexts, but sometimes that's the only way to really get that data and to answer the realities. Otherwise you're getting a. Not a full picture of the realities of work or of those issues. So absolutely, it's really important. Yeah.

So there's a word that you have said a couple of times, which I believe is a term that must be, you know, part of the field that has to do with a way that you talk about subjects, quote, unquote, to where is that? Interlocutors.

Yes. What is the perfect.

Because you are interlocked within them as you are observing them, essentially. Is that what that means?

Sort of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah.

Okay.

I know.

I heard a couple and I figure there are people listening that are like me saying, what's. What is this word? What am I hearing here?

Why is she saying that? Yeah, I know. And the people that you're studying are your interlocutors because you are co creating knowledge with them. It's not a kind of hierarchical relationship where you're going into the field to sort of find something that already exists or to put your model of how the world should be onto participants. You're interlocking, interlocuting with them as a sort of dialogue. You're in conversation with them and you're making a new kind of knowledge, really, because all ethnographic work is completely unique and it's telling the story of a set of people who haven't had their story told before in quite that way. So that's why. Awesome.

Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed talking with you today and learning a lot of terms that I wasn't even familiar with yet. Like we said of interlocutors, this is one example of that. And we had such a good conversation, we didn't even get to really dig in on cyborgs. So we'll have a follow up at some point. We will talk cyborgs later on.

Oh, amazing. Cyborg stuff. Great.

And see what you're doing in that space because I am sure that everyone else is fascinated, just like I am. So for those who do want to follow up with you and to learn more, you know, what's the best way to learn more about your work and what it is that you do?

Oh, absolutely. Thanks, Melina. So people can reach me on Twitter. My handle is Shops Sister. Or you can always connect me on LinkedIn. So I'm Felicity Heathcote Marks, which is easier said than spelled, as I'm sure you know.

We'll definitely have a link for it in the show Notes.

Thank you. Awesome.

Well, thanks again for joining me, Felicity. It was great chatting with you.

Oh, me too. Thank you.

So what got your brain buzzing as you learned about ethnographic research today? For me, I really love the insights that come from observation and asking thoughtful questions. Too often we take things as we find them and assume that's the only way they can be, or that what we've seen is the only true answer, when even if our answer isn't wrong, it doesn't mean it's the only right approach either. Observational research of all depths allows us to learn more about our customers, business trends, opportunities and pitfalls we may want to avoid. It's so important to just stop and experience to see what's in front of us that others might miss. Whether that is from becoming part of the group you're observing, like Felicity was talking about today, or more peripherally, it's all important. And if you want some more insights into how you might be able to start doing that, I mean, how do you even begin to look at things differently and to be a better observer of the world around you? Well, this Friday's upcoming episode with Christian Meshpia will help you do just that. We are talking about his wonderful new book look, and let me tell you, it has had my mind reeling in the best possible way since I started reading it. Super interesting stuff and I know you're going to love it. That episode comes out on Friday, so be sure to subscribe to the Brainy Business podcast so you don't miss it. And of course, don't forget about the show notes to check out those related past episodes, books like Look, a timestamped summary of the episode, and more. It's all waiting for you in the show notes@the brainybusiness.com 324 and just like that, episode 324 on ethnography with Dr. Felicity Heathcote Marx is done. Join me Friday for a brand new episode with Christian Meshbia to discuss his book Look. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.