329. From Present Bias to Future Focus: Emotionally Connecting with Your Future Self, with Hal Hershfield

Welcome to episode 329 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why people Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Hal Hirschfield, author of your future self. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host. Host Melina Palmer hello.

Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Dr. Hal Hirschfield. Hal is a professor of marketing, behavioral decision making and psychology at UCLA's Anderson School of Management and holds the UCLA Anderson Board of Advisors Term Chair in Management. His research, which sits at the intersection of psychology and economics, examines the ways we can improve our long term decisions. He earned his Ph.D. in psychology from Stanford University. Dr. Hirschfield publishes in top academic journals and also contributes op EDS to the New York Times, Harvard Business Review, the Wall Street Journal and other outlets. He consults with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, many financial services firms such as Fidelity, First Republic, Prudential, Morgan Stanley, Merrill lynch and Avantis, and marketing agencies such as Droga5. The recipient of numerous teaching awards, Hal was named one of the 40 most outstanding B school profs under 40 in the world by business education website Poets and Quants.

His book, your Future self, How to.

Make Tomorrow Better Today, published in June. And you know, I am so, so.

So excited about this one.

Those of you who've been listening to the podcast and following me for a while know that I love time discounting and this book and how's work are all about it. I can't wait to dig in and.

Get right to it with you here today.

Really quickly, before we get into the.

Conversation, I want to be sure you.

Know that there are links in the show notes for everything including related past episodes like the one on time Discounting, which I just refreshed for you on Tuesday. Links to articles, books and so much more.

It's all waiting for you in the.

App you're listening to and atthebrainybusiness.com 3 to 9. Now let's jump right in. Dr. Hal Hirschfeld, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you, Melina. I'm, I'm happy to be here.

Oh, I'm so excited to have you here. I know I was trying not to gush too much, but the audience I think knows, especially those who've been here for a while that time discounting is my very favorite. And so when I saw your book was coming out, I got so excited and I'm delighted that you're here to chat with me today. So for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Sure. So I'm Hal Hirschfeld and I'm a professor of marketing, behavioral decision making and psychology at UCLA's Anderson School of Management. And I largely study long term decision making. Why do people often fall short of doing the things that they say that they want to do? So sort of understanding what happens and then also really trying to figure out solutions and applications to help people do more of the things that they say that they want to do. That that's probably my, you know, where I sit in a nutshell.

Yeah. And I, like I said, I love this whole concept. And so a little bit of my background is, you know, before getting into behavioral economics specifically, I was working in a financial institution. And when you look at things like saving money as well as dieting and exercise programs and all of that, you know, you end up in this space of people know what they should do, they know what they want to do, they understand it, and yet they still don't often do the right thing. And so when I started my, you know, research and I was doing my master's and reading about, you know, this thing called hyperbolic time discounting, which I call the I'll start Monday effect, I feel like.

Yes, yes, exactly.

Resonates a little bit better. We don't see ourselves in the future as we do, you know, ourselves today you go, oh, it just makes so much sense.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's funny because you said it really well. It's, it's these decision making domains or arenas where we kind of know the right thing and then we don't do it. And it, I mean, of course there's the, you know, the exercise and dieting and saving money, but it's so many other things too. You know, when you start looking, it's environmental decisions, it's like relationship decisions and how am I acting in this moment? And parenting decisions and, you know, all these other areas of life where there's any sort of consequence now and later for some sort of action. That's where I think a lot of these ideas become, Become relevant.

Yeah, for sure. And like you said, as you, you get the first thing of like, oh, yeah, like I get the, like, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna get up at 5am on Monday.

Right, right, right, right.

And Monday never comes.

Right.

That we. We all know how that goes. But then as you start to look and go, oh, oh, it's, yeah, I do it here, I do it there. It's. It's all of these things. So, personally, I really enjoyed the, you know, the beginning of the book and you're talking about this sort of like, what is the self? And how do we define all of this? I feel like I'm guessing that was pretty fun to write and to research and not just because of some of the very interesting interviews that you got to do. But do you want to share a little bit about this, I guess, concept of how we even define the self? I thought it was a cool way to start off the book.

Yeah.

I mean, so a lot of. A lot of what I sort of get into there in the beginning of the book and in my thinking is what do we even sort of mean by who we are now and who we are later? And, you know, the way that I think about it is that, you know, or the way that many researchers have thought about it as well. Right. The self is kind of this bundle. It's this bundle of associations, emotions, feelings, thoughts, ideals, etc. And it's something that has some stability over time, but also can change quite a bit. Right. And so, you know, when I was doing the research for the book, I started by thinking, you know, well, are we sort of the same over time or are we not? And of course, of course, it's such a complicated question that it begets a really complicated answer. We're not the same, and we're not necessarily totally different. There's parts that change and there's parts that stay the same. And as we start thinking about ourselves over time, what becomes important is what are the aspects of the self that we're considering? And I think the nutshell version of this is that at the core we have these moral traits. And those are the things that I think we really point to is the things that we want to have stay the same. If I see you, the morality that's at the core of you, if that sort of goes unwavering over time, I say, well, Melina's basically the same person, but if those things change, then I'm not so sure. Like, maybe now you're totally different than you were when I first met you 20 minutes ago.

Right? Yeah, but the best 20 minutes ever.

Right.

So I'm fundamentally changed since we've been able to.

Yeah, right. There we go. That's Right.

But I mean, the other piece and I know. Okay, so. Because I'm too excited about all the things we're gonna. I'm gonna jump around.

That's fine by me.

That's fine in a way that I'm sure doesn't follow the. Like the book.

That's totally okay.

Okay. But, you know, even just looking at the, you know, asking people how if you were to rate how similar you are to yourself of, you know, 10 years ago or yourself 10 years from now or 10 minutes from now, and like, all of these and how close, like three years and 10 years and how this all goes, just really enjoy. As we think about how we think about our present, past and future selves, I think is kind of fascinating. And I would love to hear you speak about. Obviously, I read about it, but I think it'll be interesting for the audience.

Yeah. So, I mean, I think at the, you know, the. The first level here, one of the things to consider is that in. In many ways, people think of their future selves as if they're other people. And that's, you know, that's, of course, an analogy. It's. It's like it doesn't work out perfectly. Right. But. But when you start to start with that assumption, then it becomes. I think it becomes really interesting to start to think about some of the decisions that we started by talking about. Right. These, you know, the saving, eating, et cetera. Because what you start to realize is if my future self is this other person and I'm not that connected to them, like, I don't feel an emotional bond, then I'm probably going to be. I won't be that likely to do things for their benefit. You know, it'd be like asking me to do stuff to benefit a total stranger on the street. Right. Sometimes I'll do it, but I don't know how often. Right. But the similarity then becomes really relevant because, for instance, I can be. I'm clearly a separate person from my best friend. I'm a separate person from my wife and my kids. But I feel a great degree of overlap, emotional overlap, with my spouse, with my kids, with my parents. And that overlap predicts the likelihood that I'll do things for them and help them out and want to make sacrifices. And so the same ideas apply, I think, to our future selves. If they are other people, but other people that we're really tightly connected to, that we just see the similarity, then. Then I think it becomes that much more likely that we will at least try to do the things Today that'll benefit them later.

Yeah, I really loved that point, you know, as far as. So my husband and I are essentially one human.

Yeah.

Like it's. And you know, it's not that way with everyone, of course, Ian. But like we, you know, it's definitely a we situation. Right. Like, oh, well, we don't do that. We don't like those things and whatnot.

Right.

And so being able to see that layer of overlap which, you know, is the most with my husband, to be sure. But then, you know, you have friends or family members and the Venn diagrams are maybe not quite so much of a circle as you see with that. And then you're able to layer that, like you said, as you think about yourself in the future. Do I have the relationship with my future self that I have with my husband or with somebody that I'm less connected to? I don't want to like throw out any names. Name names.

Yeah.

Yeah. Someone else who maybe I know less.

Right.

But. Or like an acquaintance from work or something.

Right.

Where it's like, you know, I like them, but it does, I don't, doesn't connect all that same amount. And so, but then we think about what impact this has for us over time. It really matters how much our Venn diagrams a circle. Right. With our future self.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I love, I love the description you have of, of you and your husband. And that's, you know, and then it's funny to say, well, is that the relationship I have with my future self? Right. But it, but it, the idea, the sort of idea of like the, the we rather than the sort of separation. There's, you know, there's, there's me and there's them. Right. I think what's important about that idea is that the, that sort of like collective aspect of identity. It's going to help out when it comes to making decisions that might, you know, might benefit that future version of you, but also you now. Right. In the, in the same way, you know, I think it's not just one sided. Right. So with your, with your husband, you know, it's like you might do something that benefits him. It might also benefit you because you feel a sense of connection to, to him. Right. And so, you know, it's like I've always wondered this, you know, if I could just, you know, with, with saving. It's like it's not just that I'm saving for the future. I can't spend now. Like there are ways to reframe it. So that I also get some pleasure out of the idea that I've done something good, you know, quote unquote, good for future me. And I know that's like a really sort of like vanilla surface level example. Right. But I think that is one of, that is one of the sort of ways to think about these sorts of decisions.

Yeah, I, I am pretty sure that this was from Dan Willingham's book to outsmart your brain, which is about better studying and stuff. Really awesome book. And everyone who wants to do a better job of reading and learning things. Highly recommend. Even if this didn't come from there. But I think it was this book. But someone was reframing the idea of if you want to put off the studying or whatever it is, and we have a lot of that. You think your motivation is going to hold, right. You've got 16 hours of time, right. And this sort of thing. And so. Well, I got two really good hours and I got through two chapters and I bet that's going to continue all the way through. So I'm going to go watch Netflix for six hours now and then come.

Back and then go back because I'll still be able to maintain that same level of energy.

Right.

But this reframe being something along the lines of instead of saying, like, how much do I want to do this thing now? Is, you know, sort of in this vein of like, how upset will I. Like how much will I regret this later? Or like if I was in the moment now and having to do it, you know, how upset will I be at myself? How much will I dislike it at that point compared to how I feel about this thing right now and being able to even just take the moment to disassociate and think about how bad you'll feel then can make such a big difference in doing a little bit of something right now.

Yeah, I think it's such a good, it's such a good way to think about things. I mean, I think about this a lot with so many different, you know, so many different decisions. Right. And you know, and sometimes you still have to say, well, you know what, I'm not going to enjoy it, but I'm still going to go, you know, go through with it. It's like, I mean, Friday night I went out with my brother in law and we haven't been out in ages. I haven't been out in ages. And it was like we stayed out and I, and I was, I should probably go home now. And I just, we just stayed out a little bit Too late. And I knew, you know what? I'm not going to like this tomorrow morning. But I. Well, whatever worth it, you know, But. Right. But I mean, so it's like sometimes it doesn't always, you know, the math doesn't always work out. But at the same time, I think that idea of, you know, not, what are my feelings now, but how will I look back on this is a really nice way to sort of step into the shoes of your future self and sort of reassess these different decisions.

Yeah. And, like, do I want to feel the. I think the other thing he was saying too is, like, how much will I value the relief that I feel knowing it's done?

Right.

So looking at both the, like, how much regret will I feel? And, like, how nice will it be to have, you know, these three hours of time where I have it done instead of feeling stressed at the end? And is that better than going to watch the movie right now?

And I think that, you know, that's the. The thing that's really nice about that is that you take a decision that we're only. We're normally only looking at one side of which is, will it feel nice to watch the movie and adding sort of the other side of, you know, so there's some researchers who call this the hidden zero effect. So, you know, you say, you know, the classic decision. I know you said you love the temporal discounting. Right. But, you know, the classic decision is, do I want $10 now or $20 in two weeks? But both of those leave out, you know, the hidden zero, which is to say another way to sort of spell that out is, do I want $10 now and $0 in two weeks, or do I want $0 now and $20 in two weeks? Right. And so it's like, I think, applied to your example with the, you know, studying, it's like, do I want to watch a show right now and feel regret later?

Right.

Or do I not want to watch a show right now and feel relief later that I did this thing? You know, and the answer may still be idiosyncratic. Right. And there may be times where you say, screw it, I still want to watch the show. But at least you've thought through the full outcome matrix, if you will, a little bit in a little bit of a deeper way.

Yeah, yeah. And helping to just see the choice for more of what it is, knowing that there are so many variables in the multiverse of life. Right. Of, like, what could happen if this or that or the other, and we have to have some way of making a decision, but.

Exactly, exactly.

So one of the things that I really enjoyed about your book, amongst all of the things, is. But I like this analogy, metaphor, what have you of the missing your flight and packing the wrong clothes and your portrait planning. I think it makes it one. It's just fun to read. And it also helps compare it to something that we do. And then you can, like, see this other layer. Can you talk a little bit about that? Which is like the bulk of the book, but.

Yeah, totally. So, okay, so just to reframe your question, the first thing you said was that it was really fun to read.

Very.

Right. I just want to emphasize that. No, so. Yeah, so I mean, one of the things that I talk about in the book is the times when we make, you know, quote unquote mistakes with our mental time travel. By that I mean traveling ahead in our mind's eye to some later point in time. And, you know, the way that I outline the mistakes, you know, are there sort of. Sort of three versions of them? So one is, you know, I call it missing your flight. And the idea is, the analogy is that you go to the airport, you're ready to go. It's not like you haven't thought about the future. You've got this trip planned. You get there, you're a little early for your flight, you go have a beer in the airport bar, and like, before you know it, you look up and it's like boarding and you've. You've missed the flight. Right. And the application to mental time travel is that we essentially get so anchored on right now that we almost fail to look up and, you know, remember, oh, there's this future that I have to plan for. But I'm like, so I'm so drawn into the present moment that it influences everything I'm doing right now. The sort of second level mistake is I. I do think ahead to the future, but I engage in, you know, what I call poor trip planning. So it's. I mean, I think everybody's had this experience where it's like you might plan whatever sort of trip, you know, is something as, you know, is on the one end, like just a car travel trip where you're going somewhere else to a flight, somewhere, whatever, you know, if you're so lucky, whatever it is, you know, you're going on the trip and then you get there and you realize that you've done very little to plan the actual trip itself other than, like, how am I getting there? Right. And there can be something that's like beautiful about the spontaneity, Right. In theory and in practice, you know, you may waste half your trip figuring out what the next thing to do is. Right. And so applied to mental time travel, there are these times when we tell ourselves that we've, you know, we've thought ahead, we're going to do this thing or not do this thing. And then we don't really think through the future on a detailed level. It's more just on the surface. And we end up arriving at a future that may look different from the one that we had, quote, unquote planned for. I point to procrastination as a great example of that. Right. Where you're like, yeah, I'll do that thing. I'll just do it in a week. And it's like, really? Are you really going to want to do the same thing that you're avoiding right now in a week's time? And then the third version is, I call it like packing the wrong clothes. Basically, you do plan for the future, but in planning for the future, you get so anchored on what's happening right now that you project that ahead to the future. It's like, you know, when you go on a trip and you're going to a place that's different weather than where you're in, and you say, yeah, I know it's going to be hot there and it's cold where I am now, but I should still pack some sweaters. And you waste half your bag, you know, on stuff you don't need. No, I mean, that's like a silly example. It doesn't really matter. But there's times in life when we lock ourselves into plans or we're not that flexible because we're so focused on how we're feeling right now and think that's how we'll continue to feel later even if we won't.

Yeah. And with that, like you're saying the kind of unaccounted for sort of consequences that come from it. Like you were saying, it's like, okay, so I had a sweater in my bag that I didn't end up wearing. And like, who cares? But say if you checked a bag and you had the extra expense and that, or you had to buy new clothes when you got there because you packed wrong. And being, you know, that's the metaphorical example of these sorts of things we do all the time. So we can like tie that into what that means for you in your, your day to day life. But I think that it just helps to see how we do all these things all the time. And you do a good job of kind of layering that into other decisions too.

Well, I appreciate that. But you know, it's funny because the packing the wrong bag, you know, like you said, it's like, ah, the, in the actual travel example, it's like, okay, so I have to buy, I have to buy a lightweight jacket when I get to San Francisco because I didn't realize how cold it would be. Okay, so what? But then there are these cases, you know, you brought up the example of saying, okay, I'm going out, I'm studying at a good clip, I'll be able to maintain this energy level later. Or other researchers have pointed to that same example with entrepreneurs where you say, I've started off, you know, a project, a new business, and I'm really excited and it's going and I think I'll be able to maintain that level. And that's not really that fair to my future self because, you know, that version of me may eventually get tired or burned out or need a break. And then there's a question of like, how sustainable will it actually be for me to keep going at the same rate. Right. And so, and that, that can really be detrimental if I, if I don't think through that carefully.

For sure. Yeah, I have the like the four things that I talk about together that I think really bundle up on us and keep us stuck. Whether it's like, so I do a talk with, where it's like at the conference where you plan like, oh, when I get home, I'm going to do all the things like, I heard this and I got excited. Or you listen to the podcast, you read the book, whatever it is, and you think you're going to do it all again when you get back on Monday. Right. And then it all, you have all the emails and things you get back to, you don't end up doing it. So I think that the four things that really stack up against us are of course, time discounting, optimism, bias. So like, we think we're going to get more done than we actually can. Planning fallacy so we don't allocate for all the extra things that are going to come up, the emails, the interruptions and all those things, we don't have time for them. And then the bike shedding piece where we look at, if you're trying to do too many things, it's easy to productively procrastinate on all of them and never actually get anywhere, you know, so picking like one thing that Matters, that's really important. And do a little bit at a time is always the advice that I give.

It makes so much sense. I think it's great because a little bit of progress on a lot of things results in no like actually completed projects or tasks.

Yeah. And that's like I'll ask people, right. Do you want to get to the end of the year and have done a couple of things on 20 tasks, like 20 big ticket items that you were hoping you were going to do, or do you want to have two things that you fully completed?

Right, right, exactly. That's a. I mean, and maybe someone says a little bit of things on 20. Okay, but if that's what you want, good for you.

Yeah, enjoy your not really getting stuff done world. But you know, good fit for some people as you look to, you know, a business context and application here, like you said, you know, some piece with entrepreneurs and people getting kind of burnt out or you get too excited about something or taking on the project, whether it's that entrepreneur or the intrapreneur working on stuff like how do you think this applies to people when it comes to their work in varying aspects.

It's a great question. So I mean, I think there's a couple different levels, right? So on the first level, I think, you know, there's like an easy connection of, well, am I doing projects that are short term focused or long term one. And I don't mean to make that sound like such a black and white or like silly question, right. But I think it can be very easy, no matter what the workplace to get focused on the classic distinction, the urgent versus important. And the urgent tends to be short term and the important tends to be long term, but you can always put it off. And so I think if I were to think about the tightest connection between my book and the research that I've been doing and the work world it is that it is figuring out, well, what are my sort of long term plans and goals here? Am I getting too short term focus by doing the urgent rather than the important and how can I make a shift there? Right. So I think that is one of the sort of first level questions. But then this, you know, it also becomes interesting because so much of what I talk about is on the individual level. And when you get into sort of the work place, well, you can talk about on the individual level because you can talk about employees, but you can also talk about it more on the collective. So do we collectively see ourselves as an organization that will fundamentally change over time? Or remain the same, or what are the aspects of us that we want to maintain between now and some later point in time? And have we even thought about that? These are all the big questions that I would start asking if I were to try to apply some of these ideas in more of a. In more of a workplace type type setting. Does that make sense to you?

Yeah, for sure. And knowing that organizations are made up of humans for the most part.

Right. Like a dog organization. Yeah, that's. That's fairly true.

You get some machines in there these days. Right. So that's fair.

Yes.

A little bit of AI or something, that's fair. But in general, you still have people doing things, and as you start to layer them on top of each other, I think it just gets more. More complex.

Right.

So it's important to know it on an individual level so you know how it's happening for you. If you're interacting with one of your teammates or an employee, if they're, if they are getting stuck and they keep packing the wrong clothes. Right. You're able to look and go, hey, maybe we should look at this, you know, planning better for what's to come and not. We don't have to bring all the sweaters in the way of, like, we know that when we get there, we might be able to buy a sweater if we need one.

Right, right, right, right, right.

Versus bringing everything with us.

Yeah.

Loss aversion definitely being an issue coming up there.

I think that is Right. But I also like what you're saying there too, about the sort of, you know, interacting levels. Right. And the interactions between the way I see things moving forward and the way you might see things and the way that, you know, somebody who's an employee does versus someone who's. Who's my boss. And then to model that out is really complicated. And it's not something I've thought extensively about in an empirical way. And it would be great to be able to sort of look into that more.

Yeah, I think it's interesting too, like you're saying is, as an organization, being able to see if you're following a. One of these Personas and I think being able to break it down into these kind of three things. Right. Are we missing the flight? Are we packing the wrong clothes? Or are we doing, you know, suffering from poor trip planning and see whether it's by teams or by the company as a whole to say, you know, if you have a bunch of things that aren't really doing what you want them to or you are late on projects or things aren't getting over the finish line or they're not having as much j. You know, as you think they should. You know, the. Because you didn't have the time when you got there, you were procrastinating or whatever it is to be able to look back and say, you know, what? Do what? Which of these cultures might we be suffering from and we can learn from what the individuals are doing to try to overcome that as an organization.

No, I think that's exactly. I think you said that really well, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Thanks.

Yeah, I think it'll be interesting. So I feel like if any company is wanting to do this and do some research. Right. Reach out to Hal.

Yeah, there you go. Exactly. I love it.

Well, speaking of your research, and I know that, you know, by the time a book comes out, it's based on, you know, research and things you wrote at least six months before and that you were probably researching years previous and you're still doing lots of other work and things now.

So as you're looking into the future.

What are you excited about now? And, you know, what are you continuing to build on and, you know, maybe it's from feedback from the book or anything.

Yeah, no, these are great questions. So, you know, I have so many different things. I know it would be funnier if I said nothing. I'm just tired right now.

Maybe partially true. And you're still excited about stuff.

So I'm, you know, right now I'm with one of my grad students, Megan Weber. We're sort of going a lot deeper on the sort of commitment devices. I know that we didn't talk about this much, but, you know, there's this sort of idea. And I know a lot of other books have talked about commitment devices, but I sort of take this lens of, you know, what we're trying to do here is say, how can I put some guardrails on some future behavior to do more of the things that I want to do or stop some of the things I don't want to do. And very little is known about what are the sort of antecedents of those or like, what are the predictors of who adopts those? Because it turns out some. There's some commitment devices that are wildly effective and people don't adopt them, you know, for a variety of reasons. And so I'm really excited about this, maybe partially. I just had a long call with her earlier, but I'm partially excited about this because we're trying to figure out well, what. What's predictive of who takes these up? And can we sort of inject that into others to help people do the things that they say that they want to do? So that's like, one space that I'm really excited about. You know, another space I'm really excited about is like, thinking about this. These sorts of questions more in the very long term. So thinking about, you know, collective decisions, environmental decisions, end of life planning. End of life planning has been something I've been interested in for years, but I've never really quite put my finger on how I want to look at that. But in writing the book, one of the things I came across was these letter writing exercises where people would write letters to their loved ones to be delivered after they died, which is, you know, it's really emotional to think about.

I was getting my nails done while I was reading the book, and I, like, have my iPad and I'm scrolling through it, you know, and I was just like actually starting to cry as I was reading in this part of the book. I remember it. And it's, you know, partially for having young kids and all that anyway. But yeah, that particular story was one that, like.

Oh, yeah, no, it's. It's emotional to think about some of these things, you know, and I, you know, I guess in a way I would rather that than something that is, you know, too sterile. Right. And not feeling. But. But then, you know, looking at whether or not any of these sorts of exercises can be used to help with end of life planning and. Which is like one of these topic areas that sometimes a lot of people care about, but it's very hard to study. Some people don't want to talk about it. And so I'm thinking more and more about that. Can I tell you one other thing that I'm really excited about? Yes. So one other project that I'm really excited about right now that to some extent derives from some of the thinking that occurred during the book. This is with one of my colleagues, Ali Lieberman, who's also in the book. When I had my first kid, one of my friends from work, who's a little bit. Has a little bit of a dark sense of humor, said one day. I'm sure you've heard this sort of thing, right? One day will be the last day you pick up your kid and you won't know it. Have you ever heard that saying, Sorry, is that really okay? So, all right. I don't want to get too dark and, you know, but it was. It's like it's funny because you could interpret that darkly or you could say, like, well, there's.

You know, it's like, live in the moment and enjoy what you have.

Yeah. You know, you're living through life. And, you know, and so we had been talking about this. My colleague Ali and I had been talking about this. And so the end of my book really talked, talking about sort of the balancing out of the. Of the present and the future and, you know, when to sort of, like, lean into the present and when to not. And what do I want to look back on? And, you know, one of the things that, you know. So my version of the, like, picking up the kid thing is, like, there will be a day when, like, neither kid wants to spend time with me. Right. Or in theory.

And I refuse to believe it's the case.

I refuse to believe that. Right, exactly. And, you know, that knowledge, you know, look, sometimes. Sometimes I'm still like, I'm sorry, no, you have to go do your own thing. I'm like, whatever, I'm doing something else right now. Or like, sometimes I still am on my phone. But, you know, the knowledge, it's a thought that I've been having more and more lately. And it's not like I'm. It's not like it's a constant that I'm like, oh, this is the last time. But it's like thinking ahead to a distant point in the future when things will be different. And part of the reason that I'm sort of obsessed with this idea right now is because starting the research on this book, so much that I was focused on was this idea that there will be similarities, things will be the same, you should take care of your future self. And this really flips it around to say, things will be very different, but your values may still be the same. And what am I going to want to look back on? So one of the things that we're doing right now is trying to use this idea as almost a behavioral change intervention, not just with parents and kids, but a variety of different things. So that is one of the other project areas that I'm really excited about now.

Oh, yeah. Well, that made me think of similar and yet a different application, I guess. But friend of mine, this was several years ago now, but she'd always had a sort of tumultuous relationship with her mom. Right. As many people have with family members. And I hadn't seen her in a while, and we were catching up, and she had mentioned. So her mom had recently been diagnosed with a terminal Cancer. And that she was talking about how, like, she just was sort of getting over those sorts of things and where, you know, it might have been difficult in the past because they lived long distance too. So it was a, you know, relationship by phone.

Added layer. Yeah.

Right.

And so she said every. She would always just try to have these better conversations and not get upset because every time she would hang up the phone knowing that it could be the last time that she got to talk to her mom, to which me being me, of course, like, acknowledging, like, that's really hard and like, isn't that always the case? That's like kind of a lesson in life anyway.

Right.

Like.

Right. It is. Really. Yeah. It's a. You know, that's such an. Of course. Right. And it's like, you know, of course that's true. And yet at the same time, it's like almost too much to deal with. Right. Like to sort of like to keep that mindset, you know, it's like, it makes sense in a way. Like, for her, she's got that cloud. There's that overwhelming, you know, salient notion. Right. And so. And you're right. That is. That could always be the case. And yet, like, it'd be kind of hard to continue to live our lives, go, you know, day to day, to just constantly be like, this could be the last, you know, but.

Right.

But then it's maybe like, don't get like the thing that if this was the last time I was going to talk to them, I'd be like, I would really feel bad about saying this thing. Like, maybe I don't say it because it's always. Could be like, do I, would I care about this thing five minutes from now, five years from now, like, those sorts of, like we say the mental time traveling, and it's amazing to think of how often we're going, like, forward and back and side to side.

And I love the way you said that. Forward and back inside the side. Because it's exactly right. It's like, it's not so linear, you know, and. And then we do it a lot when it comes to, you know, there actually was a study that tried to look at, you know, like experience sampling, study of mental time travel. And we do spend a lot of our time in the future, but the very, very, very proximal future, like, what am I going to do for dinner tonight? What's my schedule look like tomorrow? But I'm not regularly spending my time thinking about, well, what will I be doing in five years? And of course not it would be kind of. It wouldn't make a lot of sense. Right. I live in the present, so why should I always be doing that? But we probably don't do it quite enough.

But it is amazing when you think about the. As you're doing planning.

Right.

And we just jump around so much and don't even realize, you know, in one train of thought could be talking about, you know, well, 10 years from now I'm probably going to be doing this, but you know, because of tomorrow. And like last time I did that, I didn't really like it. But then I remember, like when I thought about this yesterday, I was looking at X, Y. You just like jump so much. It's just fascinating when you think about how much. Yeah. Like I said, we're all over the place all of the time.

Yep, I think that's. That's exactly right. We are all over the place all the time.

Yeah. And maybe taking a little bit of time to be more thoughtful to as we jump around, is it helping us to go to the place we want to get to eventually? Taking some time to plan where you want to be and like, keep that as a touchstone as you go would be my advice. What advice do you have for people as they're like, working toward their future self?

Well, I think, I mean, if I can like almost jump off of what you were saying, I think there's a version of mental time travel that's almost undirected and kind of like reactive. Right. And I think we spend a lot of our time just going through life that way. But I think if we, you know, if we try to apply a little bit more of. Of intention, if you will, to mental time travel, it's not saying that we should always be living in the future. Right. But living for the future, like, I think that would actually be a mistake. Right. But rather, you know, thinking through when I have a choice, why am I doing what I'm doing? Maybe that means go for it today, live in the moment, right now. Maybe it means actually I should probably pull back and like, think about how this is going to impact things later on. But if we have that sort of like, intentional lens to it, that may up the chances that we arrive at a future that we're satisfied with.

Yeah, definitely. I just saw this morning someone had shared a video from an old clip. I think it was Viktor Frankl, and it was talking about how he was taking flying lessons and that it was saying that if you're so that the pilots do something called crabbing. My dad's a pilot. So you think, I would know this, but, like, of the. If there's a cross wind, right? So if you want to go, like, you're trying to head east and land at the airfield, but there's a crosswind, you're actually having to fly at an angle. And if you were to fly straight, you would undershoot and like, end up way south of essentially the airport. And so you have to be flying, like, northeast to hit east. And so you're like, plane is kind of going sideways, like, the whole way that it goes to, like, counter the crosswinds. You. And it's. He's making this, you know, you have to be like, overshooting to help it to land to its act, like what it actually can do, which is really interesting sort of analogy.

Yeah, no, it's a great analogy to, you know, it's also a great analogy to the idea that we probably shouldn't always engage in such linear planning.

Perhaps that'll be the. That'll be our ending lesson point here, because as we know, I could talk to you all day long. So we'll go ahead and close with that. Ben, for everyone, of course, there will be links to get your future self in the show notes and for everyone who's excited to get that and to learn more about you and to connect, you know, what's their best path to do. So.

Oh, yeah, that's great. You can go to HalherSchfield.com or find me on LinkedIn or Twitter. I'm happy to connect and engage and I appreciate. I appreciate this.

Awesome.

We'll, of course, have those links in the show notes for all the future selves who are listening to this and planning and I don't know, it's getting too meta for. For that, but we'll say thanks and see you next time.

Thank you so much.

Thank you again to Dr. Hal Hirschfield for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I'm such a nerd for time discounting and all of Hal's research. I had to apologize to him for being such a weirdo fan girl that.

I got to talk to him today. As I said in the episode, I.

Really enjoyed the way Hal talked about this in terms of going on a trip.

I think that comparison made it so.

You can really relate to these three types of ways that time discounting can impact your behavior.

So you can evaluate if you want.

To make a change. Are you packing the right clothes? Did you plan well?

Did you get distracted?

And miss your flight. Whether you're looking at the things you do individually as a person trying to.

Be more empathetic to people on your.

Team, say when they miss a deadline or get distracted or procrastinate, or if you want to just better understand why your whole team or organization is maybe not meeting their objectives. There are so many ways that time discounting and the insights from Hal's book your future self can help. There are, of course, links in the.

Show notes for you to get your copy of your future self to learn more and connect with Hal, and as.

Well as to check out related past episodes like mine on time, discounting and lots of other great stuff. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 329 and thank you again to Hal Hirschfeld for joining me on the show today.

It was a delight to chat with.

And learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

You won't want to miss it. Until then. Thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly from. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.