331. Building Productive Relationships: Taking Responsibility for Your Impact with Brian Lowery

Welcome to episode 331 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Brian Lowry, author of Selfless Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello, everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Dr. Brian Lowry. Brian is the Walter Kenneth Kilpatrick professor of Organizational Behavior at Stanford. He is also one of the founding co directors of Stanford's new Institute on Race. His recent book, Selfless Was, which we will be discussing today, explores issues ranging from the nature of gender identity to an understanding of the way others help us generate meaning in life. He also hosts the podcast Know what yout See. And he has a course webinar based on one of the classes he teaches at Stanford called the Leadership for Society series, which is open to the public. There are, of course, links for those podcasts in Brian's book and how to connect with him, along with related past episodes and more. It's all within the app, listening to and at the brainy business.com 331 now let's jump right in. Dr. Brian Lowry, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you for having me, Melanna. Oh, wait, by the way, I should have asked, how do I pronounce your name?

I know it's Melina.

Melina. Melina.

Yeah. Yeah.

Great.

Yeah.

Happy to be here, Melina.

Happy to have you. Excited to be having ourselves talking about ourselves. I feel like this is going to be the most meta sort of conversation that we've had on the show yet, which I find very exciting. For everyone that doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about your background and the work that you do?

Yeah, like I said, I'm Brian Lowery. I'm a professor at Stanford University. I'm in the Graduate School of Business. I am now one of the co founders of the Institute on Race at Stanford. So it's a new institute that we are creating. My work primarily focuses on how people make sense of the self. That's most recently what I've been doing and that's in the book. And then prior to that, I did work on how people think about social inequality, how they perceive it, and what they want to do about it, if anything. And why.

How did you get into. I mean, just even the idea of the self and how we, like, determine, like myself versus you and how it's created. Like I said, it's really interesting to read how you talk about it in the book. Do you remember when you got really interested and kind of into the rabbit hole of this?

Depends what you mean. So fourth grade.

Okay, expand.

So for a long time I've been interested in, really since middle school, why people's lives work out the way they do, why some people are treated one way and other people are treated another way. So I've always been kind of interested in that social, psychological or sociological kind of lens on the human experience. Like, why are things. Why are things the way they are? So I've always been interested in that. I can't remember how I came to the stuff in the book. How I got to the particulars of that is something that evolved as I just been studying psychology, you know, more than two decades. And I think that it's a way of understanding our experience in the world that psychologists have a sense of that I don't think the average person thinks about. So it was just an interesting conversation to be had with people. And then I was like, why don't I maybe write a book about this? Honestly, here's the. Well, that is all that is true. And I guess it was kind of my agent that suggested I write a book, but that she wasn't my agent at the time, she became my agent.

Later, just to be clear.

So the book thing wasn't really like, oh, I always wanted to write a book. It wasn't like that.

Right. Yeah, but even the thoughtfulness and the deeper questions, and it's very philosophical in vibe. Right? Like, but what is the self? And how do we determine this? And do I determine me or do you determine me? And how all these sorts of things I find just really interesting. And seeing how. How people get to where they are, I think is always just sort of an interesting topic.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's one of those things where most really deep questions like your listeners have thought about on their own. Right. The only difference between like the, like, say, me or a philosopher or someone else who writes a book is that they just can't stop thinking about the thing. It's the sort of thing that, like, people like, ah, I wonder, blah, blah, blah, and then they go about their lives, right? Then they're the weirdos like me who like, just. No, they don't go on about their lives. They Just keep thinking about that same thing.

Yeah, for sure. Well, I sort of lightly touched on some of the aspects of the self that make up this sort of first part of your book. And I'm sure as someone who has talked about this exponentially more than I ever will have or will into the future. Right. Like, can you share. How do you explain the self to people and like the way to think about it in a way that is different than maybe we may be programmed or wired to think about it?

Yeah. So the first thing I have to say is it's going to sound crazy to people. I just have to start with that. So I get it. I'm not confused. And it's not how it feels to me either. That's the other thing that's important is that sometimes the way things feel are not how things are. So I think the way most people experience the self, not. I think I know because there's research on this. Like, healthy human beings tend to have this experience of being in their head, certainly in the west anyway, and about two or three inches behind their eyes, looking out, making sense of the world like they're in there. And obviously that cannot be true. And what does that even mean that you are in there? That's. When you think about it, it's not really sensical. My claim is that. That you. That experience of you is a combination of relationships, social interactions, culture. That's where that comes from. There's no you, absent other people. The sense of you that you have, the sense of yourself that you have as a coherent entity doesn't just spring into existence. It's a construction of relationships and interactions in culture. So that's how I talk about the self. Now, again, I just want to be clear. I don't deny the existence of your physical body. Right. Like you are a physical thing. That is true. But it's easy to kind of explain to people. One, that's not really what they're talking about when they talk about the self. That's not what they have in mind. It's not important. It's just not what they are thinking about. I think when they think about the self. And two, you can actually create a sense that you're not in your body. Like that is. There's studies that demonstrate this illusion, they call it where. Which suggests that that sense of being in there is evolved because it's useful. But there's nothing about that that is fundamentally the reality of things.

Yeah, well, it's not a completely foreign concept here on the show, at least. So know that there have been other conversations. And so the audience is at least somewhat familiar. I really loved the the Power of Us by Dominic Packer and Jay Van Bavel. And so. And the insights that they kind of provide of how our identity shifts throughout the day and ways that we think about this, which then, you know, this is just, I would say, you know, another layer, a sort of different approach at a very similar concept of some of what was talked about in their. In their book. And so the audience is familiar. And I recently refreshed that episode. It'll be in the show notes for everybody to go check that one out. Can you share a bit about your perspective on how you talk about the way that we kind of shift identities throughout the day and how other people influence kind of who we are in the decisions that we make? And I have a specific example from the book that came to mind when we were talking about this. In case you don't know what I'm getting at, I'm happy to bring it up.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

Okay, cool.

I assume you're talking about the study with Asian American women. Is that the one that's on your.

Yeah, that's a great one, too. Yeah, we've talked about that here on the show a lot. I have it. And it's a citation in my first two books, so. So that one's a good one. I was actually also thinking about when you were talking about the action that you took in, whether you were a good son or, like, a strong kind of man in that space, and how, like, living up to one is letting the other one down. So which one are you?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you talk to Jay Van Bavel and you have a sense of, like, this in the audience, had heard those episodes or heard that episode, they'd have a sense of this, which is that you are an identity and relationship to other people. Right. It doesn't just exist absent relationships. And as you go through your day, different aspects of those relationships are active. Right. So when you're. The easiest examples are things like, you know, if you're at home and you're with your parents, Right. You go home to visit or you live there, whatever the situation, people get that you're not the same person that you are if you're, like, at the bar with your friends. Right? Like, that's easy. But the reality is that that is happening constantly. Like, there's this constant shift. And the point that I like to highlight is that people think of those things often as, like, Masks. Like, I'm putting on this mask, I'm putting on that mask as if there is something true underneath. And the point that I make is that they're masks all the way down. So as you move through, there is no, there's no. Without the mask, there is, There is nothing else. Right. That, that's, that's what there is. And mask is the wrong metaphor because it implies, like, something is hidden underneath, when really it's. You are as a human being incredibly flexible and vast in terms of the ways you can engage, in terms of the way you can experience yourself. The only limit, I argue, in terms of what you can be is what others will allow you to be right in your relationships. So I won't. You know, the example of the Asian American women and math is an easy way to talk about that. A lot of people talk about that one. But I think what's more profound is that you are changing in ways all the time in response to other people. And mostly you don't even know it. And not only are you changing, like your beliefs are changing, like, one of the studies that I did early on demonstrated that people's attitudes around race shifted in a non conscious way. Like in a way that they probably didn't realize, certainly couldn't do on purpose in response to what they thought the person standing in front of them thought. And if you think that's happening all the time, think about that. That's happening all the time at levels you can't really understand. And that, I think demonstrates the degree of flexibility in terms of who we are and who we can be. Mm.

Yeah. When I talk about it, you know, with the behavioral economics sort of layer on it, look at how it's the priming aspect as well as some of the. What is called the focusing illusion. But in a world of like, how we have to filter information based on what's around, you know, we're gonna focus on something and like filter it down. And so when I'm with my mom, have a different interaction than when I'm with my husband, than when I'm with my kids, than when I'm at work, than when I'm standing on a stage, when I'm in a meeting, right. Like those sorts of things, you know, we kind of filter and change who we are in all these different aspects. So when you. What you're talking about, I think it's so interesting and important for people as we think about, like you said, they're very vast. And it's not the masks sort of approach. And so why is it important for people to see or and accept the difference? I guess. Is it important that. I'm assuming you think it's important for people to know that since you wrote the book and whatnot. But how does it change the way we approach our life and our work or anything, if at all?

Yeah. So I'm going to give the answer that I give that's not popular first, and then I'll give you the answer that I think people will resonate more with. 1. I think understanding the human condition is fascinating and awe inspiring. Even if there's nothing to be done with it. If I told you there is, there's a, there's another three colors in the world, you don't see them, but I'm going to point them out to you. Once I point them out to you, you will now see them everywhere in the world. Like, would you want that? What are you going to do with that? I don't know what you're going to do with it, but if you. Would you say like, I don't care. What can I do with that? So don't tell me, don't show me. You'd be like, wow, that's incredible. But you're going to make, you're going to change the way the world looks to me. Like, please. I assume that you would like that. I don't have those three colors, but, you know, you get the idea. And so when I think about this stuff, first thing I think about is, don't you want to understand the world you live in? Don't you want to look into the world and see it in a more interesting and, I don't know, bigger way? Don't you want to live in a bigger world? Like, do I need to be able to tell you what to do with it for that to be valuable? So that's the first answer. That's the one that's not popular. Here's the second answer. The second answer is that if you don't take this seriously, I think people don't take enough responsibility for their role in creating others. And when you think about management, when I talk to leaders, what I say is if you're a manager and something's going wrong, right, the first thing you should ask is, how did I produce that? Right. That's a, that's a different question. I think most people ask, right, like, and if somebody's not performing well, you're like, how did I, how did I construct that? How did I produce that? And the point is not that the other person has no agency. The point is that you, if you take what I'm saying seriously, you are participating in the construction of the people you engage with. And if you have problems with those relationships or with the way they're behaving, you should think about your contribution to it. When I tell leaders, it's like, look, I get it. You're like, sometimes people have things going on. It has nothing to do with you. That's fair. But you know what? It's more powerful to ask the question first, what am I doing? Because that maybe you can change. Right. That could be more. It's a more powerful way to think about the world. It gives you, in some sense, greater agency. And I think the way that we normally think about people, which is like, I'm an island, they're an island. I can tell them this thing and they can listen to me or not. Like that, I think is not the reality of the world we live in.

Right. That definitely gets to the next question I was going to ask, which if you want to expand on the idea of they can take what I say or not, I do something, it's up to them whether they do something with that or not. Do you want to expand on.

Yeah, I just. I just think that. That it's just. It's naive. Right. If I. So one of. One of the things I say in the book is like, wiggle your little finger. Right.

Oh, my gosh, I loved this example for all the reasons. So. But go ahead, keep. Keep talking and then we'll potentially talk more about it.

Yeah, yeah. And then. And then I ask people to do this in the book. And I don't know how many people that read the book do it, but the point that I make is like, it doesn't.

Everyone does.

Probably, but if they don't, the point is, here's the thing that's amazing. Even if you didn't, you had to choose not to. If you read the sentence, I affected you like, you did it. You didn't do it. Doesn't matter. Like, I created. I put you in a situation where a decision was. Had to be made and you made a decision. And I think that people don't understand that about the world they live in or the interactions they have. Like, when you engage with someone, there's not. They have to. I mean, they have to respond like you have imposed something on them. Right. And there is responsibility in that that I think people don't take seriously.

Yeah. Well, I. Getting back to the wiggling your finger in a minute, I really liked some of how you explained even this. So you're on your way out the door to go. On the day you have a big presentation or something, your significant other or parent or whomever makes a comment that hits you the wrong way and then you feel self conscious and like this kind of snowball of how that impacts everything that follows. And then it's like, so you don't. You're thinking about it, you're distracted, you don't do as well in the presentation and it goes beyond the way you feel about that person. Maybe it's like always going to be going back to this new thing that has happened, but also now you feel about worse about your job or you think that someone is out to get you or whatever. And like it just can totally spiral from this one little thing that they don't even remember having happened. And, and how does that ever happen to you?

It feels like you understand. I actually.

So yes, in all the ways which I'm sure everyone relates to that sort of example. But I actually talk in my book what your employees need tell you. I talk about an experience with an old boss. I got an email from her at around 10am on a Thursday that said we need to talk. Be in my office at 2. And I had been there for less than 90 days. Like this is this terrifying email that impacted. You know, it's not like I ignored it for four hours. Right. I'm freaking out every project, every person texting my husband, like all the things like that. Right. So I go to have the meeting and she has me sit down and says hey, wanted to let you know I'm going to be out tomorrow and I'm putting you as the contact in my out of office responder.

Great.

Yeah. Okay. And I'm sure we talked about other stuff in that meeting. Like who knows what it was. And 10 years later when I was writing about it in the book, like I felt my heart rate increase and like looking back at all these other interactions that may have been impacted by that type of relationship and knowing that was how she sent emails and she was busy and all of that. But you know, I talk about it as the, like those things that you don't think are that important. This is I talk about in terms of burnt popcorn. Right. So is my email coming off as burnt popcorn? How might I change it? So. Because you can't like that lingers for a really long time, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So yes, that's what comes to mind.

Flashbacks.

Yes. Yeah. Trauma past. Which is like from the little email. Right. I Mean, it's. And something that for her, she didn't even think about it, not even a blip.

Yeah.

But if you think about how you could make a change with something like that, that's the question of, like, how am I contributing to this? Or how did I cause this situation? And maybe it wasn't all that. Like, it's not that to say that that email was everything or the thing you said in the meeting was the only reason everything went awry, but doesn't mean you can't tweak it and try to make it better. Right?

100%. I agree with that completely.

Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, that. I guess that brings us back. It feels like an abrupt shift, but back to the wiggling our finger scenario. So one, I even had, like, with my husband. I was like, let me read this section to you because I thought it was so interesting, even just how you talked about this. And I don't have it pulled up to be able to. I don't know how well you even remember exactly what you wrote. But when it says, like, I want you to think, like, we have an experiment. Think about wiggling your finger. And then you bring it up again. So, like one. Of course I did. But even if you're not, you're thinking about, like, should I wiggle my finger? Like, why does he want me to wiggle my finger? And that you talk about how you, like, you writing for me shaped. This is the meta part, right? Like, shaped the way that you were writing and thinking about it. You were thinking about me before you even knew who I was. And you may never even meet me, like, this whole, like, how I impacted the book without even being a part of the book yet. So thought that was fascinating. And when you, like, reference the finger again, you know, several chapters in. And then I'm still like, like, I gotta do it. I gotta move it.

I love that. I love that it landed for you.

Yeah.

I mean, I think it's just so. It's just such an interesting thing. Right. Like, when I wrote that, I didn't. I mean, I didn't know who was going to read it or how people respond to it, but I had to think about you. Right. Think about as you as an audience. And that affected me. Right. I wrote that for you without knowing anything about you or any of the other listeners who happen to read. Read it. Right. It's a. It's an interesting thing. It's a way in which you all were making me an author. Right. We were in. We are and were in some Interaction, even if it was imagined at the time.

Right.

And it was affecting me.

Yeah.

And I affected you. You wiggled your finger.

It's crazy, right? And like this like past you impacted today me, it's like a whole thing. I love it. So I, I was into it. I thought it was cool. Like, maybe that's just me, but we'll go from there. Even if I'm the only one, it still worked, right. That you can do from it.

Although if it makes you feel better, other people bring that up too. The wiggle finger thing. Yeah, it comes out.

Yeah. I'm cool with being unique too, but.

Like, it's good to me. You are.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. When Vanessa Bonds was on the show, we were talking about how when someone is giving a presentation and how they end up being impacted by people who are in the audience. So her book is, you have more influence than you think. And knowing, like, even if you don't say something, you know, when there's a woman presence, it can impact the topics that people bring up. Or if you do raise your hand or you're nodding along, the people change what they're saying based on the reaction they're getting and that ends up impacting some of their beliefs as it goes on. Even if it's something, you know, as you're sort of, you know, non conscious or subconsciously adapting to the people around you. And I felt there was a little bit of that in your, in your book as well. This sort of thought both of impacting those around you and how others impact you. I don't know how you may want to.

Yeah, like, you know, one of the things I think about now is I didn't, I don't talk about this in the book so much, but there's, there's the, your behavior impacting me and my behavior impacting you. That's in the finger and it was in audience members. But there's also all this work on contagion. Right. I don't, I don't know if you've talked to anyone about it, but this work on like social contagion behavior, you know, belief contagion. It's really fascinating. Like people suggest that emotions are contagious, right. That you express an emotion and other people, you know, for lack of a better term, catch that emotion. And so there's a way in which even these fleeting interactions can have much larger effects than people imagine. Because it's not just in that interaction. This goes back to your, your point about your boss and her email, right. That it affected you. And then who knows how you're interacting with everyone else during the day, waiting to see what would happen. And that could have an effect on the culture of the office. Right. Maybe there was. Maybe there's more tension in the office, not just for you, but for everyone else because of that event that day. So I think that people sometimes don't understand the potential breadth of the effects they have via what might seem like fleeting interactions.

Mm.

Yeah. I feel like I go back to this quote far too often, but I really love the book Fierce Conversations by Susan Scott. It was one that I was introduced to really early in my career, and I'm thankful about that. But she talks about how, you know, in every interaction you have with people, you want to be asking whether you're leaving an aftertaste, an afterglow, or an aftermath. And. And as you get higher up in an organization, essentially the little one off, things that didn't really matter can be hugely impactful for the people around you. So, like, as someone who's lower in the organization, if you kind of roll your eyes or aren't paying attention, people don't really notice. But if somebody comes up and says hi to you and you ignore them or didn't notice as you're a senior leader or their boss's boss or something, then people worry way more that something's off. You know, you have to be on your game more because those little interactions, you know, just become so much more impactful for people.

Yeah, I talk about that all the time when I talk to executives. I'm like, look, as a leader, one of the things you have to think about is communication. And as a leader, everything you do is examined for information, Right? Like the way you dress. You're. Whether you like the icons that you have in the meeting, like, you know, the tone of voice. All of that is communication like people are trying to divine. Like, are you upset? Are you happy? What do you want from them? Are they doing well? And everything that you do is seen as information about. About that. And that's a hard thing for people to internalize. And again, going back to your example, my guess is your. Your boss just didn't think about it. They didn't. She didn't understand how that would have affected you. And that's. I think it's hard to internalize that. And it's even harder when you think about it, not as a leader, but just as a person. When you're interacting with people, it's not as acute, but it doesn't go away. You still are affecting people with your behavior in ways that you probably are not paying attention to.

Yeah, definitely. Well, knowing that this is the brainy business and there are many of those executives and people in organizations, small business owners, so many people that listen, what sort of advice do you give? I know you've been sort of touching on some of it, but what's the topic stuff that people either bring you in for that you like to talk with teams about?

I do a lot of stuff on communication and perspective taking. Right. So I talk a lot about when you engage with someone, it's often easy to focus on you. Right. And like your intentions. And you lose sight of the fact that that has no. Your intentions have no effect on the person that you're engaging with. What affects them is what you do. And they can see. Right. Like it's your behavior that affects them, not your intentions. And I do this activity where I'll have people code the behavior of different people in the, you know, in the team. Right. And it's a simple coding. We don't have to go into it, but what I ask is like, people to code their own behavior and the behavior of everyone else. And so there's the possibility that the way you code yourself is not the way other people in the team coded your behavior. Right. The. There's this gap between how you saw what you were doing, what you were trying to do, and what the other person experienced. And so I asked two questions. I say, who's right? Who's right? So you think you did X and they think you did Y. In this simple coding system, you did behavior X, they think you did behavior Y. Who's right? I say, you're both right. Like, you think you did that, they thought you did that. That's what your experience is true and valid. Both. Right. Who matters? And then people will say, you know, different things. I'm like, no, the only person that matters is the person that received it. That's it. The only person that matters. Why? Because when you do something, when you do a thing, when you're interacting with another person, you're trying to influence them in some way. You're trying to get them to change their behavior. You're trying to get them to see something differently. Like you're communicating for a reason. And the reason is to have some effect on the person you're communicating to. If that person doesn't take what you intended, you have failed in what you were trying to accomplish. And that's why only the receiver matters, because that's what you're trying to influence. But people, they have a hard time holding on to that. And part of that is because we're so caught by the visceral experiences that we have of ourselves that we're so wrapped up in our experience that we get confused and we think that the way the world looks to us, what we're experiencing is how it is as opposed to how we're experiencing it. And it's hard to recognize that other people are experiencing something else in the same situation. And that is also valid, right?

Yeah, I'm definitely. So I'm going to be linking to the episode I did on Fundamental Attribution Error, which very much links in here on this as well as my interview with Wendy Smith about her book both and Thinking, which is just awesome. And I think very much ties in. I was thinking about that book as well. While reading your book. I know that people say all the time, it's like, we love listening to the show. And it's like, God, my book list never stops. Like whenever anyone talks to me, I give them way too many books to read. So. So I feel like it's a Sorry, not sorry, but that's the best I know. I'm. I'm a plethora of book recommendations to be sure. So like you said that that can be hard for people to grasp onto and accept. Or maybe it's. I think there's a bit of, you know, as we look at habits and things, it's like, I get what you're saying and then actually doing something about it are two different things. Right. So even the people that get it and want to do something probably fall into their own ways pretty quickly. Do you have recommendations to help people?

I have things I suggest people do, but it's not, it's hard if you're like falling into your own, your patterns. Right. I suggest curiosity. So when people are behaving in ways that are surprising to you or upsetting to you should assume that for them it's a reasonable thing. Why? Why is it reasonable? From their perspective, like curiosity is, it doesn't, it's not a cure all. It doesn't mean that they're reasonable, that you're going to like what you think or you're going to learn something that makes you feel good about what they're doing. But it's a way of not, not just relying on your assumptions. Right. Trying to engage with someone to understand their experience is powerful. You know, that's hard to do, but I think that's one thing. And the other thing is what I've already said is. First question you should ask yourself is, how are you creating what's happening? I think that's just a powerful question. You might be like, nothing. I'm not doing anything. Like, okay, maybe that's true. Probably not, but maybe. But asking the question is, I think, again, a way of identifying your agency in the situation that you're experiencing.

Yeah, that's. Whenever I teach and talk about confirmation bias, like, I always have somebody that'll say, like, oh, this is great. Like, I love this. How do I get the other person to see that they are suffering from a confirmation bias and that they're wrong?

I get it, I get it. It's tough.

I say, like, well, it's probably not going to work out. And like, let's look at our own confirmation BIA and see what we're doing here.

Let's take a look, see what we learned.

Yeah, there's something else happening to be sure. Well, so the book came out by the time we're talking now, it's been a few months. And with that then also it was several months before that. I'm sure that you finished the book. And so you've been working on tons of other amazing things since then. What are you excited about? And you mentioned a new center that you're working on. As you're looking to the future and whatever area that you're interested in, you know, what would you like to talk about? What are you looking at these days?

Yeah, I mean, well, one, I'm doing the. I'm doing a podcast too.

Yay.

Called Know what yout See K N O W know what you see. I love doing that because it's, as you well know, it's a different form of storytelling and getting ideas out there. And so I'm having fun with that. And this season is an exploration of some of the themes in the book. It won't be like a chapter by chapter exploration of the book. It'll be things like friendship. How do we think about friendship? How do we think about gender? How do we think about home? What does that mean? So these are things that I'm really excited about doing and talking to folks. So working on that, I'm spending a lot of time on the institute, so trying to really launch this institute. And that even though it's not explicitly related to the book, it is not because the focus on race, but really I think the institute is designed to be solutions focused, and it's thinking about how we categorize people, affects the kind of lives that people can live. And it's big. It's like the ambitions are really exciting to me. So it's not just race as we understand in the US it's not parochial in that way. It's really meant to be global and asking big questions potentially, like what's the effect on race, thinking in terms of maybe immigration, on democracy, like what is a multi. What does a well functioning multicultural democracy look like? How might we think about race on the effect of race on politics? How is it hampering? Or how could it help us think about responding to climate change in a collective way? So just really big issues as well as kind of obvious things. I shouldn't say obvious, but things that we all have some awareness of like inequities in education or the criminal justice system or housing markets. So it's really exciting to work on that. I'm spending a lot of time thinking about that and the research stuff is that I'm doing is kind of a continuation of the meaning stuff. So self and meanings. That's one of the, one of the chapters in the book. So I'm doing work with some of my graduate, former graduate students that are now faculty looking at that and also thinking about the conferral of gender. That's something I talk about like who gets to decide what gender you are and how does that work? So I'm doing some of that work. And then one other thing that people might really be interested in your audience is I have some work on looking at big data sets on responses to going back to office or remote work. So I have some, I have a little bit of stuff on that. So yes, random, random lot of things.

I love it. It's always, always something and I enjoy just sort of seeing what people are thinking about, you know, where, where things are taking you. Very interested in the podcast, of course. We'll link to it in the show notes for everybody to go check out. Do you want to touch just a little bit as we go to. We're going to wrap up, but you were talking about, you know, if you're exploring an idea like friendship or some of the others you mentioned, you want to talk a little bit about what that might look like of a kind of a snack of what one of those episodes might look at 100%.

So the one we just are wrapping up and doing the editing on now is on friendship. So that will be the first one that comes out in the new season. I don't know when the drop date is for it yet, but you know, it's. We talk to different people. So we think about friendship along life stages. So what is it like right now for college age students? So people launching into their lives. Right. As independent adults. And when we think about college, we think about having a good time or we think about finding your career. Think about maybe romantic life, but it's also a chance to, like, form the kind of friendships that will stay with you for your whole life, possibly. And like, what does that look like? How are they managing that? And then we also talk to some people who are a father and a daughter. The father is like, you know, older, right. In different stage in life and how he maintains his friendships. And he has an agenda that he sends to his. He calls him the board members, they're his buddies, and they meet at a bar and go through the agenda. They've been doing it for, I don't know, 30 years.

Wow.

And so that. It's just an interesting thing to, like, see. Like, okay, how do you get it going? And we talked to a friendship coach. Like, how do you, you know, people, Like, I don't have enough friends. Especially like, you, you know, you're. You sound like you have little. You have little ones now. And at that stage, people are like, how do I manage this? And I don't know, keeping track of people. And later on, how do I get that friendship network going? So there's a coach that we talk to, like, what are people. How are they managing? And what are the questions they ask?

Amazing.

Yeah. So that's.

There's a coach for everything. And in a good.

In a good way.

Right. Because we need support with that support. My husband and I thought of two things when you were. Well, I thought of lots of things, but two that stuck with me that are short enough to make a comment on. One, when you talk about this, like, friendship agenda, like a thousand percent. That would be my husband. Like, he would have a friendship agenda, like, no question, million friends.

But he's listening. It was like a list of topics that the friends are going to discuss in order. That would be.

Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. That is absolutely my husband. Like, if he was controlling his friendships versus letting them sort of experience, like, around him, that is how he would run them. No question.

You should check it out. Check it out this, this episode. Because it's like, there's a whole. And also he can follow along because there's a whole thread now where people ask, like, what are the topics for this week?

Yes.

Yep. Yeah, he. I think he would really dig on that. For sure. So, like, that's the first thing, my, my husband has spreadsheets, like, just to get into, like, how he plans things. And I've talked about this a little bit on the show, but so years ago, this is probably like 2000, we'll say 18, 20, 19 maybe, but probably 2018. And he, like, came in as like, hey, like, I really need to know, like, and this is really important. We have to, like, figure this out right now. Do you think you're going to want a new computer in February of 2024? Because he's, like, working on the spreadsheet and, like, has all the different scenarios. Like, this is. That's who my husband is. So that's, that's. That's my life. So I chose this too. Right. The other thing I was going to say is just like you say with having a little one in daycare. So the Brainy baby turned 2 years old yesterday as we're recording this and him being in daycare. And you look around, my husband and I like eyeballing which kids we want him to be friends with. Based on, as you look at the parents, like, do we want to hang out with them? Maybe should we steer him over to this kid? They seem cool because you're destined to be friends with these people for eternity just because they happen to play together as kids. Right. So it's funny.

But on that, I'll just say one thing, that the daughter and the father, they are, one of the board members used to be the babysitter or the daughter who's now in her, like, I don't know, 20s, maybe 30s. I don't know. Yeah, so there you go.

I love it.

It was carefully.

Right? You don't, you don't know the people you're stuck with, you know, forever after this. But no, I love it. Well, for everyone who is super excited to go get their copy of Selfless to connect with you, to check out the podcast, learn more, all the things. What, what are their best paths to do?

So, yeah, the best way to do it is to go to the know what you see website. So it's knlwnow what you see.com and everything is up there, the podcasts. I also do a, a webinar that's open to the public. It's a Stanford class. So I interview people in that as a. It's, you know, it's a video in addition to the podcast. So all that is there. And the things I'm working on and academic papers, if people are into. Into that kind of thing and this.

For this audience, they Definitely are. We love that sort of thing around here. It's the brainy business for a reason.

Right?

There you go. There you go.

Awesome. Well, Brian, thanks so much for joining me. It's been a lot of fun to chat with you today and I'll keep living my meta self life from here on out. You've. You've fundamentally changed me, which I think was the goal.

Fantastic. It was great to talk to you. So thank you so much for having me.

Thank you again to Dr. Brian Lowery for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really enjoyed the way this book made me think. I mentioned this to Brian outside of our recording, but I thought it was really interesting to be doing this interview with and my reading prep at the same time as Hal Hirschfeld, your future self.

That episode came out last week.

They both took this really deep look at who we are and how it's different than we like to think or may expect. And in a way that was even more than I found in my own reading and research so far over the years. It's just really thought provoking to read about in depth in these books and I think they really complement each other. Of course, that interview with Hal is linked for you in the show notes along with both your future self and Selfless as well as other related past episodes like those on Time Discounting and the Focusing Illusion and Confirmation Bias and so many other books and past episodes I mentioned during our conversation today, as well as ways to connect with Brian where you can check out his podcast and so much more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com331 and thank you again to Dr. Brian Lowry for joining me on the show today.

It was a delight to chat with.

And learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit the brainybusiness.com.