339. Mastering User Behavior: Data Insights for Exceptional Experiences - Lucie Buisson

Welcome to episode 339 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Lucy Buissant, Chief Product Officer at Content Square. Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Lucy Buissant. Lucy is Content Square's Chief Product Officer. She joined the company in 2014 as one of the first few employees and today the company's over 2,000 employees. We absolutely talk about what that journey was like and Lucy's insights for anyone in a growing company. So be sure to tune in so.

You don't miss that.

Today, Lucy leads the product vision strategy and co leads the go to market for Content Square. Her team's mission is to develop innovative products that empower businesses to make the digital world more human. Autonomy and uniqueness are key areas of focus for the product team as they work on making Content Square the world's leading customer experience optimization platform. Lucy moved to New York in September 2018 to help crack the American market and empower brands to stay ahead of tomorrow's digital challenges. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 339. Now let's jump right in. Lucy Buisson, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. Very exciting.

Yeah, I'm super excited to have you here and to be able to chat about products and behavior and millions and billions of purchase moments that we get to discuss today. For everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Of course. So I've been with Content square for almost 10 years now. When I started, it was a very small company, only 10 people in Paris. As you can hear, I'm French now. It's a 2,000 people company. So it's been an amazing journey and maybe I can say a word about what contentsquare does. It's digital experience analytics. I'm sure we're going to dive into it. But basically we create a software, an analytics software to help our customers understand what's engaging and what's frustrating into the online experience on website and app. And when I started at Content Square ten years ago, I was on the customer success side and at that time our engineer were dealing directly with our CEO and they convinced him that they needed someone in between and they asked me to create the product team. So we created the product team I think six months after I arrived. And at first we were like only four people. I was me, a product manager, a designer and a product knowledge manager. And what was super interesting is that we were in charge of both creating the product but also onboarding as a customer that were going to be self serve. So we basically had to get our hand dirty training customer. And so we've been very craft on how we started the product and how we started our discovery and our customer understanding.

Oh yeah, that's such a great opportunity. One going from 10 employees to 2,000 is a huge journey to be on board with and knowing that anytime you get to develop a department and like help to shape it up and where you've been seeing how much growth has happened. I know we have founders and small business owners listening to the show and like do you have any like thoughts or successes knowing that your role is a little bit different but just from being there, what are your thoughts?

Yeah, I think one day someone asked me how do you know that you have scale in this scale up environment? And my answer was if you are scaling up, you will know that you've never done. And this goes back to my advice which is when your company is growing super fast, you need to be able to adapt your organization and the way you work at least every year. If it's not every six months, you know, because your context is changing so fast. But at the same time you need to make sure that you stick to your vision. Because if you are changing your organization every six months or every year and your way of working plus you are changing the North Star and the direction, it's too much for your employee. You see what I mean? So I think you need to have like solid goals and stick to your goals and stick to your three year vision but at the same time be able to be super adaptable into the means and how you're going to achieve that.

Yeah, for sure. I'm going to link to my interview with John List in the notes for everyone on his book the Voltage Effect which is about scaling and really, really interesting stuff as well, as. So my second book, what your employees need and Can't Tell youl is all about change in the same way. And like how our brains react to it, I think will be really nice, kind of dovetail for everybody. So those will be linked in the show notes for sure. And just even thinking about that. Yeah. Because how much change comes if you go from again, like 10 employees to even just 100. Right. So 10 to 100 is a huge difference in resources and who's job, job is what and all these things. But like you say you still have that like North Star goal that you're working towards, so it's being fixed while flexible.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's so funny. But it's my peloton trainer that is saying solid gold flexible means, you know, and like.

Yes. Oh, fun. Oh, good. Now I get to link to. I did an episode on behavioral economics of Peloton and I feel like that's enough of a reference that we can list the put the peloton episode in the show notes too.

And yeah, and like, to build on what you just said, I think there are two things when you go from 10 to 100. The first one is like your 10 first employee. Most of the time they are Swiss knife, you know, they know to do a bit of everything. But now if you want to be a hundred, you need to make your business. Being scalable means being more repeatable. So it means that each role, each mission needs to be more defined, you know, so it's really like always a tricky question of like, how do you make your Swiss knife employee successful and engaged and still passionate about this new world, you know. And I would say that the second thing is like, when you are 10 people, a lot of things are implicit, like as a vision, the culture, all those things are so shared between everybody that you don't have to talk about it. But when you are 100 now, you need to explicit it, you need to explain it, you know. So I would say that for us, that was a true big difference. Going from 10 to 100.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Thank you for those insights. I'm sure people are taking good notes and being thoughtful about, you know, as they look those dreams of what their businesses can be at whatever stage, you know, they happen to be. It's inspiring and really cool. So of course you grow from 10 employees to 2,000 employees over 10 years by having really cool stuff that you're doing for lots of really cool clients. You touched on it a little bit, but so you're looking at website interactions and mobile, like in shops and stuff. Right. Can you share a little bit more about how you're looking at behavior and kind of what you find there?

Sure. So the basic of our technology is that we're going to collect every interaction between the website or the app and the user. So every scroll, every swipe, every mouse movement, like also hesitation, time span and etc. And from those behaviors that are totally anonymous, we don't know who people are. And I think this is something super important for us at Content Square. We really think that you don't need to know who your customer are, but you need to know what they are trying to achieve and how they feel about it. And if you think about it, the experience you're going to get in store is like most of the time, much better than the experience you're getting online. Much more positive from an emotional standpoint, much more efficient. The chances that you're gonna find what you're looking for are higher. And nobody in a store is never going to ask you for your name, your age and where you live before starting to help you.

Right.

You see what I mean?

Yeah.

So if we think that in store experience is one of the best you can get, like, why not? We cannot mimic the same thing online. So our job, and this is why we connected, I guess, is to try to understand from those micro behavior, from these digital body language, we could say what customers are trying to achieve. Because if I am a window shopper or if I am a fast buyer, I don't have the same expectation. If I'm here to start a new project and ask for a loan or if I'm here to check out my account. If we are like in the banking world, I don't have the same expectation. And if you give me again and again the same website and the same app, while I don't have the same intent, you're not going to help me. So it's really about understanding the behavior to be able to understand what's engaging and what's frustrating. Depending on your intent, which means depending on what you're trying to achieve with the website or the app.

I really love all of that and the point you make too. It would be super weird if someone's like, and your zip code is.

Yes, exactly.

I can't show you what aisle you need to go to until you give me all this information and last four digits of your Social Security number, whatever it is. Right. And also, I think, you know, with behavioral economics, you know, people like, for my own, you know, Clients and things they. People will ask like, well, I want to know about, you know, like how generations are different or how these things happen. And you know, for me, the thing about behavioral science is looking at how we're all the same as human people and why we do the things we do and being able to understand those. You know, of course context matters and there are things that we're looking to test, but being able to know again, the, the way things are actually happening, kind of. And I like this. Like you say that it's kind of regardless of who it is. It's randomized in a way that you can see that people are. The experience is working for people that want to work with you or it's not.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, definitely. And I think we get to realize that more and more, and especially in product management, that it's like getting to know your customer and understanding your customer is a science and you need to go through. The closer you are to scientific methodology, the better. You know, at Content Square we say without data, it's just another opinion, you know, but like everything around analyzing your data and then like driving experimentation and just after experimentation, doing a conclusion on what you are trying to test on is the scope you are trying to test and then try a new scope and etc. I think this is why everybody's getting better now that we are getting much more scientific, you know, in our, in our approach.

Yeah, definitely. So I know that you have many, many then, you know, customers and micro moments of data. Do you have any? I'm trying to decide. This can be our choose your own adventure moment. So if it's best to start with some of the, like a case study, something you've done, a project that was really cool, or do you start with like some surprising findings that you've had along the way that's like all so different than what people would expect in customer behavior. Like, you know, general things that people should know for their. Is it. It's websites and mobile. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So whatever you think is the best approach, however you feel inspired, I support it.

Okay. So I think we can do a bit of both together. So the first, first customer I could tell you about is Zenny. You know, like it's optical online. And I love their approach because they are like very much into what I just described around experimentation, you know, and they've been like. So they've been using Content Square data to do two things to identify where they are, like, unexpected frustration. I would say it's not the right way to Say it. They've been using Content Square to identify where they have like errors, you know, like real troubleshooting. I don't know, like there is a rage click here because this button is not working. There is a GS error, there is an API error. So all those things that all the website is super slow, all those things that create frustration and that were not meant to be and then you can fix that. But the other thing they do is to identify unexpected behavior. The website is working the way it's supposed to work, but still it's creating frustration. One of the things we see all the time, we have one of the graph, we have one of the report we have in Content Square is like what we call the journey analysis. And it's showing you the different steps a customer is following in a sequential way. And most customers, they will have one of their Most used journey, I.e. homepage, homepage, homepage, homepage, meaning people are loading 2 times, 3 times, 4 times the homepage, which is super weird, right? Why would you do that? When we discover these kind of things within the product, then you can go into what we call session replay, which is a replay of some session of the user and then you're going to start understanding why they do that. One of the main reason is because people just don't understand that they're on the homepage. They click on the logo again and again, you know, so this is the kind of insight you can get. Or like in a checkout, for instance, like you go into the checkout and you see that they are loading again and again the first step of the checkout. And this can be either because there is a bug into the checkout or because one of your field is mandatory and customer don't understand why this information would be mandatory. I don't know, like maybe your age or your birthday, your birthday date and they're just not fulfilling it. And if you don't have the right UI to show them exactly what's missing, they can click again and again and again and then they won't buy. So this is a kind of expected. I think it's part of the most interesting thing when you have an expected behavior. Like when you design your website, you expect something and customer would do it differently. Or you created something that is so hard to use that customer are trying to go around it, but it's making your website crash. So those are the kind of insights you would find very often with Content Square. Right?

And it's not that someone has to know what they're looking for. Right. To say, oh, I want to see, see how that cart's doing and the form is performing. Right. There's something that's pointing them in the right direction of like this is, something's weird over here.

Yeah, you're completely right. I think. And this is one of the main difference between Content Square and Adobe analytics, for instance, is that with Content Square you don't have to tag your website. You deploy as the Content square tag on every page and then we collect every interaction. So you don't have to choose in advance what's going to matter. Because the issue with tagging plan is that you don't know what you don't know.

Yes.

If you need to anticipate what matter for your customer, you are not in a research mode. You already have your hypothesis and you are just trying to confirm your hypothesis. And so you're going to miss so much about what your customer are actually doing with your website. So definitely you're making a very, very important point is that Content Square is very exploratory. So most of the reports we have, you don't have to choose what you're going to look at. We are like, for instance, if you look at your homepage, we're going to give you the click rate on every single element of the homepage in a very visual way. And you don't have to choose in advance that you want to look at the menu or you want to look at the slideshow. You see what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, that's really important. I think, you know, I talk a lot about how often I see with companies that the issue is, you know, so it's really easy to find the right answer to the wrong question. And if you don't spend enough time thinking about the problem, like you just waste a lot of time and energy and money and everything in doing something that it doesn't matter. And like you said, if you have to go in in advance and say, well, we just, we only care about the X page and the Y page because we think that's where the problem would be. How would you possibly, how would you possibly know what the problem is going to be? It's, it's really great.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I keep bugging my team with this because I think what is interesting with my job is like I'm in charge of products, so my team is product manager building a product for product manager, you know, like, so it's kind of an inception. But I keep telling them like the best you can find the best solution if you are not solving the most important problem, you're not going to create value. You know, and being provocative, we could almost say I prefer a less good solution to a bigger problem than the best solution to a smaller problem. You know, the level of impact you're going to get is much higher if you can identify as the most pressing or the most challenging problem for your customer. So definitely I agree with you.

Yeah, I'm curious now and I might be completely off, but I would expect that often the things that the customer thinks the problems are like your customers, your clients, right. Like what they think needs to be fixed is probably some like big gigantic project that would be some massive overhaul of stuff that would take a really long time and a lot of money and investment to make happen. And that potentially there are some things that are a really simple fix that they can do that's actually much easier, that can have a big lift in the results. Like hey, the hero image on your landing page is too big and people the call to actions below the fold. So like let's shrink that up and people can see what they're supposed to do. Like ta da.

Right?

Exactly. Now you're completely right. And it's exactly what happened with Zenny. You know, like some like we work with very big customer. Like we have a lot of them and like in the telco for like you know, like they are selling phone, there's like massive traffic and on a day like the iPhone launch where you the placement of an ad, the placement of an add to cart button, the placement of a slideshow, it's like you really count million dollar per day, you know, so you completely. Right. It's as simple as making sure that your call to action are above the phone line. But it can be as big as million dollars per day. So yeah, definitely. And the other situation we see very often is customer that have a gigantic list of stuff they want to do on their website and they have like, you know, they have so many things they want to do but they don't have prioritization because they don't know which one is going to be the most helpful. Because you have what your boss wants you to do, you have what the wife of the CEO or the husband of the CEO struggle with and then you have what you think you should do. And I think one of the things we try to do at Content Square with our customers is to help them size the opportunity. So for like for retail it's pretty easy. We just look at the revenue opportunity miss. So we compare population that had this issue or that had this behavior with the population that didn't. And this helps you size how much you're losing every day, you know, because you're not acting on your website. But you can also do that with bank, for instance. Like, you just have an average value per session because you know your lifetime, your customer lifetime value. And like this, you can start prioritizing what you're going to do on your app and your website, not only based on who has the loudest voice, but on what's impacting the most, your business. Do you see what I mean?

Yeah, definitely. And I love that it comes back to like you were saying that the being able to let the actual actions guide you when you see what's happening, right? So you can implement, like, you have some ideas of what you think and what everybody's bickering about, what the real problem is. And then you can put some stuff in, see what's really happening and say, well, like, it's actually not this one and it's not that either. But we found this other thing that was really weird and. Or like, you guys were both right. And it looks like this one's the bigger one, so start there. Or there's more revenue opportunity here, so let's start there. You know that it can help guide the path based on actual action.

I think I have another example that you're gonna like because it's like very in line with a lot of things you're saying. Like, are you advocating A lot of our customers, they use voice of customer, so voc tools, you know, which I think they are amazing because they are really giving you direct feedback from your customer in their own world, you know, and you can really uncover very, very interesting things. But everybody knows that people who give you a feedback are the people that love you the most or hate you the most, you know, and if you have a. If you have a very great feedback practice, maybe 2, 3, maximum 5% of your customer are going to give you a feedback, you know, so how do you make the difference between this one customer that has a really, really bad connection and so or like is using like Internet Explorer 7 and so nothing worked for him, you know, to a behavior that is symptomatic and that is actually happening for a lot of customers. So what we do, like, what we allow our customer to do is that for each feedback that they get, they can tie this back to a session replay. So they're going to be able to look at the behavior of this customer and they're going to be able to identify the action that creating the frustration. And from there they're going to be able to quantify how many people had the same behavior, but without complaining. And so now you can really make the difference between what is an isolated behavior due to a particular context and what is something that is happening to 4% of your customer and that is costing you a lot of money every day. So I think it's another example of how you can give more space to your customer, listen more to your customer, but at the same time prioritize what's going to have the biggest impact and going back to solving the biggest problem first.

Right. Well, I'm curious too like adding on to that. So what's the process of helping as far like how do y' all approach if you have you find that there was an issue with the journey somewhere, right. Something is wrong. It looks like this point is where something is off. And again in the like what customer wants and can't tell you, like they, we don't really know exactly what's going on. You don't know the people, you can't go ask them specifically. And so what's the process of helping to identify what to test? I'm assuming you do like AB tests and things with the clients to see if this is going to improve the situation or not. You know, how do you go about helping to solve those issues and look at testing.

So I think what is super important with our customer is to work within the ecosystem. You know, so like the two, like the three most deployed integration between Content Square and, and the rest of the ecosystem is integration with analytics. So it can be Adobe analytics or Google Analytics that is going to tell you where you're bleeding, where you are losing people, and then you're going to use Content Square to understand why. Why is that happening? Okay, so with thanks to Adobe, you know that you're losing everybody in step one of the checkout. But once you know that you're not able to act because you don't know why you are losing them and you don't know how people behave, you know, so now you're going to go into Content Square and you're going to analyze the zoning. So it's like a heat map representation of the checkout and you're going to identify rage, click or hesitation, stuff like this. And then you're going to go into the session replay to see some example of behavior, you know, to continue your qualitative discovery. And once you have understand why people are struggling in this first step of the Checkout and maybe going back to what I was saying earlier, it's because you're asking for an information that they don't want to give you. It's too soon. You know, you remove and you say, okay, so now you're going to, we're going to remove this birthday part of the form and then you're going to use an experimentation tool and a B test tool, you know, like optimizing, for instance, in order to test and in order to prove that this new version of the checkout is going to work better. You know, so it's really like Content Square is really the middle piece that is allowing you to understand why customers are struggling. And after you start your experimentation with Optimizely, for instance, then you're going to be able to analyze why the new version is performing better. Maybe you're going to find something that is still not that good in this new version. This is how you start doing a cycle of innovation and a cycle of iteration. Because every time you change something, thanks to Content Score, you can understand what was the impact on a customer and how it changed their behavior.

Fascinating. Yeah. And yeah, good. I really do love the actual real behavior, especially because even when we do any sort of testing and looking at lab testing and academic research, which is really important, and that when you give someone like, imagine you can afford anything here, what would you buy? But like, I can't necessarily afford anything here. Maybe I wouldn't have bought anything. Maybe I would have gotten stuck. And I'm not going to tell you that I don't want to put in my birthday, but you're paying me to be a part of this study, so I guess I'll put in my birthday. Right. So it doesn't necessarily come up into play. Well, and actually I think that kind of brings up what we were talking about in the pre chat. You were talking about the, the book that you, you like and some of the insights and a better way to ask questions of people. Do you want to elaborate on that a little bit?

Yes, yes. So the book I was referring to as a book that Teresa Torres wrote, I think it could be another good reference for this podcast in her book like Continuous Discovery Habits. And basically she's trying to share with us how to do better discovery and how to do better research. And she was like, she explained that the more generic the question is, the less accurate the answer is going to be. So for instance, if you ask people how often they do physical activities, maybe they're going to say they're going to Answer twice or three times a week, you know, because this is what they wish they were doing. But if you ask them, okay, tell me about last week, how many times did you do exercise? Maybe it's going to be one. And then you say okay, tell me about two weeks before, like how many times did you go? Maybe zero, you know, and so they say they're going two to three times a week, but in reality they're going one, you know. And she gives another example of if you ask people, okay, how do you choose if you were to buy a pair of jeans, how do you choose your new pair of jeans? And if you ask the question this way, people are going to say, yeah, I look for a color, I look for a shape because I know which shape suits me best, etc. And if now you ask them, tell me about the last time you, you wear a pair of jeans and tell me about the steps you had and how you decided a lot of them are going to say, oh yes, this was great, I love this brand. And he was in promotion. So there is always a difference between what, what we ask, what we answer in general and what we actually do. And what she's saying is that the best way to get an accurate answer is to ask people about a specific time and a specific story and a specific context. And then from this specific context you're going to be able to quantify and this is where you use tool like Content Square to be able to say, okay, now I know that this is a behavior and I'm going to use the quantitative data to know how many other people had the same behavior. You know, yes.

For the like enjoyableness of the world to know why I was laughing when I came right back on the is had this like perfect moment where I had to sneeze like.

Right as you were finishing what you were saying.

So wonderful, well timed. It's allergy season here. I guess it's were in this. So anyway, yeah, no, I think that's so perfect. And it goes into like I was saying about the easy to find the right answer to the wrong question. Right. So and people are going to answer based on what they hope to be, what they intend to do, what they think they should do, what and you know, and it's again it's not even that they're necessarily lying. They really think that they're going to do this. And even when we look back of what we've done before. I'm going to also link to my conversation with Hal her Hirschfield about his book your Future self in the show notes for everybody too, because that is definitely going to resonate. And I made a note of, I think you said Teresa Torres. I made a note of the book.

Yes.

To be able to link to that in the show notes for people too. But who we think we are in the future is so different when we look at time discounting and who we are today and who we want to be and what we think we're going to want and how we predict things is so, so different. And people like to think that their behavior tomorrow is going to be very different than what they did yesterday. And it's just often not.

Yeah, this is very true. And it's also like, you know, when you do like qualitative testing and qualitative research and you ask customer, she talks about that also, if you, if I come to you tomorrow and like, and I'm like, do you want this new, do you want a new T shirt? You're going to be, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, why not? Like, if you give it to me, I'm going to take it, you know. But now if I tell you, do you want this new T shirt is going to cost you 30 bucks and you have to swear that you're going to wear it at least twice a week. It's not going to be the same answer, you know. And basically when we ask customer, do, would you fancy having this new feature on the website? It's exactly the same thing. We are not asking them, are you going to use it? Is it going to change your life? Is it going to make your life easier? Customers are going to say, yes, I love it, I want it. But if you add stuff that are not really going to use, you are over complexifying your interface. It's not because they said, yeah, why not? That they love it. You know, like you, if like you implement a new thing on your website, on your product, on your app, customer should say, yes, I'm dying to use it. Because if they don't say, I'm dying to use it, they're not going to use it. Because for them to use it, it means that they need to find the time, they need to get trained or they need to understand how to use it. So they need to be desperate to use it, you know, otherwise they're not going to use it.

Right. In my first book, what your customer wants and can't tell you, I talk about an example from Netflix and where they were asking people who didn't end up getting the free trial or like, you know, doing that introductory point like what would make you want to get the trial? And forever and ever and ever and ever, people would say that it was that they needed, they wanted to see what all the options were before they would come in. And people even within Netflix had said that they thought this was the problem. We need to be showing all these shows, you can get an idea and then people will want to come in. And so they went through, decided to do their A B testing to like see which version was going to be the best version. And so they went against control and like the control one. And then they did it a second time against the control and the control one and again and again and again and again and again. It's like people said that they wanted and needed it, but it was actually really overwhelming. And that kind of like paradox of choice problem where and we've all been in Netflix and you scroll through and go, oh, there's nothing to watch. Right? Where there's a zillion things to watch. But getting over that hurdle to do the first month, to do the first thing and go check it out and start to use actually performs better counterintuitive to what everyone said they wanted, what everyone inside believed they were going to want. And so this is why, you know, testing and really understanding behavior is, is really important.

Yeah, completely. And I think we are touching here, maybe what's the most important when you want to create better experience and better website and better apps and etc. Is like you need to listen to your customer, you need to understand your customer. But most of the time you must avoid doing what they are asking for. And you know, it's the infamous Ford story, you know, like they were asking for faster horses and they did a car, you know, and the pain was, it's too long to go from Boston to New York. I want to go faster. But the solution was not faster horses. The solution was a brand new way of moving. And it's something that happens all the time between my product manager and my CEO. My CEO is like, we need to do this and we need to do that because he's talking to, we need to solve this or we need to solve that. And product manager. Now, this is not what customers are asking for, but the CEO is talking to the boss of the user. So it's also a question of not every user has the same understanding of what their company needs and what's going to really move the needle. So you need to listen to your customer, you need to understand your customer. But you are, as a person, product manager. You are the one that has all the knowledge and the customer knowledge and technical technological knowledge story to be able to understand what is the biggest problem and what is the best solution to this, to this problem.

Perfect. Yeah, love that. And I was going to ask for some sort of overarching advice and as I transition to that for people this episode is going to be coming around. So sometime in the holiday ish season I'm not sure how far ahead. So you know it might be that this is a bit late for people as they're listening. But if you think about some general advice for anybody that's going to look to try to be optimizing experience for some like top couple of lessons of things, I'm assuming it's like reduce friction, make it easy, make invisible, look for contrast. But like what would you say say that you found in your research to help people as they look at like year end sales.

I think I'm going to repeat myself but I think it's really like to start with listening to your customer. You know, like even if you are your own customer, even if you use your own app and your own website, you got to use it in a way that is different. One because you know it in and out. So for you like everything is easy because you are just used to using it. And second, because your context is maybe not other people context. So start with the micro signal of what's different from what you are expecting. You know, like to go back to my homepage example. Like you are not expecting people to to go over and over into the homepage or you are not expecting people to see a list page, a product page, a list page, a product page, a list page, a product page. So those are the small signals. And then you need to try to quantify how many people are doing that because you don't want to spend two weeks fixing something for someone that is using Internet Explorer 7. So I would say listen to the small signal, try to quantify as much as possible how many people are having this behavior or doing this this way. And then try to find a nice balance between the big rocks and the small rocks. Because if you are only doing quick wins, you're going to have an uplift at first, but then you're going to plateau. And if you're only going for big projects, you're not going to have enough win to prove that your methodology is working. You know. So I would say really a balance between the big rocks and the small rocks. The quick win and the more long term win.

Awesome.

Well, thank you for that feedback, I'm sure that's going to be helping a lot of people as they're starting to think about that sort of optimization of their experience, website and mobile. Especially for everyone who is now really excited to learn more and connect and everything, you know what's the best place for them to do that.

Yeah. So if you want to know more about Content Square, you can go into our websites where you're going to find a lot of case studies, demo of the product, and if you want to continue the conversation about product management and continuous discovery, don't hesitate to contact me on LinkedIn.

Wonderful.

And we will definitely have links for that in the show, notes for everyone to make it nice and easy. So yeah. Thank you again, Lucy. It was a lot of fun to chat with you today and I look forward to our next conversation.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you again to Lucy Buissant for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation?

For me, I really love the way.

That Content Square has been able to infuse real human behavior into the analyses they give to companies. It's such a great way to test theories and form new ones to find areas where it makes sense to test. If you've ever dug into website analytics, you know that it can be a really frustrating experience.

It's a treasure hunt of sorts where you don't have a map and and.

Don'T even know what you're trying to find. It can feel like endless wandering in.

A way that makes you want to throw up your hands and put it off till tomorrow.

Hello time discounting.

I think it's really cool that Content.

Square has found a way to make it so you know what you're looking for and easily can find what's going on. So you can optimize the site, do some tests and see real results that can influence the behavior changes you want in your visitors. They have lots of really cool case.

Studies on their website so you can.

Learn a little more about what this looks like. And I also love, love, love the tips and insights from Lucy on what it was like to go from being one of 10 employees to a team of 2,000.

I can't even imagine.

And while there's definitely so much more.

To learn from Content Square and its.

Team in this regard, I love that she took some time to talk with other all of us about that here today. Even if you aren't planning to scale quite that much, there's real wisdom in her insights that can apply to anyone in any type and size of company? Are you at a size where everyone is the Swiss army knife ready to do anything and everything? Or do you have specialized team members? What does this mean for their working habits and for how you discuss new initiatives and projects? How does this change as you grow? What areas of the team members psyche that might have been overlooked can you be more thoughtful about in advance to help retain amazing talent as you grow? Such great insight from Lucy today. What was your biggest takeaway? Come share it with me on social media. You'll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere.

There's a link for you in the.

Show, notes to make it easy, of course, as well as links to related past episodes and books, ways to connect with Lucy and check out Content Square and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@thebrainybusiness.com 339.

And.

Thank you again to Lucy Buisson for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.