341. Unlocking Deeper Connections: The Power of Thoughtful Questioning with Meghaan Lurtz

Welcome to episode 341 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Megan Lurtz.

Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palme Palmer.

Hello. Hello, everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Megan Lertz. Megan is a writer and senior research associate with Kits'.com, a financial planning blog.

She's also a professor of practice at.

Kansas State University where she teaches courses for the Advanced Financial Planning Certificate Program and a lecturer at Columbia University where she teaches financial psychology and an undergraduate adjunct professor through the University of Maryland system in their CFP program. She's also a past president of the Financial Therapy Association. As you can tell, Megan has a really cool and interesting background that I can't wait for you to hear about today. And the best part is what really solidified that I had to have her on the show and is that she focuses on the power of great questions. So, yeah, I love this one and I'm sure you will too. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for everything, including related past episodes, links to articles and books, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 3 4, 1.

Now let's jump right in.

Dr. Megan Lurtz, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Hi. Happy to be here.

Yes, yes, happy to have you here. As we've said, we've become fast friends in our kind of intro calls. So I'm delighted to see you again and excited for everyone to get to meet you. And of course, thank you to our.

Mutual friend Mike Schein for making the introduction.

For everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself, your background and the work that you do?

Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's interesting. So I kind of sit at the intersection of finance and psychology, and I mostly work with financial professionals, but I've also worked a lot with consumers of, you know, people just trying to make decisions about their money and their life. And one of the things that I do the most with is sort of, you Know, like, not sort of, but like, communication skills and how. How to talk to each other about such difficult topics. You know, money, among many things, is a very difficult thing for people to have conversations about. And so I have pretty much spent my. I don't know, at least the past, like, six or seven years working on being a better communicator and helping others to be a better communicator when the stakes are high.

Yeah, well, I know that there are lots of people in the financial services space that listen to the show. For myself. I have a long history in that area as well. I worked in a credit union for six years and have ties to the industry and do a lot in that space, too. So we definitely know that, you know, when you do the rankings and people ask, like, least favorite topics, sometimes money is above, like, death. And that's, like, such a taboo sort of thing. And so it can be on, like, investments, and it can be on savings. It can be about budget. It could be about all the things. Do you have some insight into why people hate talking about money?

Yeah, I think just because it's connected to so many other things, you know, like, if you say you're a saver, you know, some people will look at that and say, well, you're stingy. And other people will look at that and say, oh, you're responsible. And maybe both of those things are true. Maybe neither of those things are true. You know, when people talk about what they want to do with their money or, you know, the things that they buy with their money, when they talk about, people have a lot of shame about their money. And this can be whether you have a lot of it or have very little of it. And so I think it's difficult for people to talk about not. Not because of the. The thing itself, but for what the thing represents in our society. And I will say, I'm a military spouse. I move around all the time. This is a universal concern. Like, I have yet to live in a country where. Or in a state or around anybody worldwide that thinks, like, oh, yeah, I love to talk about money. Like, few people feel that way. And so it's kind of a worldwide universal truth that money is a thing that we need. But money is not necessarily the thing that we love to sit around and talk about, much like, you know, politics or, I don't know, intimate relations. Like, you know, these are all. That's always, like, the funny. There's a. Every once in a while, somebody gets a wild hair and they go out into the world and they Go around asking people like, what they do behind closed doors with their intimate partners, or they can share how much is in their bank account. And most people default to talking about what they do with their intimate partner. And you know, that's how upset people like, that's how like adverse people are at talking about money. And so being a skilled communicator, being good at asking questions that don't rile people up and instead support them, that's what I'm interested in doing. Getting better at those kind of conversations, which, when you get better at those types of conversations, you get better at all conversations. That's a useful thing to point out. Or I usually have students tell me just about. So I didn't mention I am a professor. I'm a professor of. Well, at some schools it's in finance. At some schools it's in personal finance. At some, you know, it's like different things, different places. But I teach at. I teach a lot of financial psychology classes in addition to financial planning classes. And students every semester, you know, will take my class and then they'll go home and they'll use like a scaling question or something with their spouse or with their teenager. And then like, you know, months later, after the class has ended, the students will write to me and be like, oh, yeah, I. I use that on somebody other than my client. And it actually worked. And I'm like, yes, I'm. I'm so glad that you did like your own tiny experiment and that what your teacher has a degree in that, I'm telling you, works that you finally, you know, you finally believe me. So that, that's always kind of a, a funny, a funny moment. I'm glad that my students try it.

That's awesome. Well, you mentioned then a scaling question. Can you maybe introduce to the audience a little bit? We love questions around here, as you know, because we've been talking about it a bit. But can you do a small version of teaching a bit about different types of questions and how we would use them?

Sure. Scaling questions are one of my favorites. I wish that more people use them because they work so, so well. And it's actually the question itself doesn't matter. It's the follow up that's like the cool part. So scaling question just goes something like this. You're like, hey, you know, Melina, on a scale of 1 to 10, you know, like, how are you feeling today? And then people will say, or you.

Will say, I'm a nine.

Nine. Okay, awesome. Nine sounds like you've got like a Lot of energy. What would make today's conversation a ten? I don't know.

Magic?

Yeah. So there could be many things that people can go on and say the opposite is also true. This, like scaling. The scaling questions come from therapy. And a lot of times in therapy people aren't feeling very good. And so the therapist will ask, you know, how you doing? Or you know, how you feeling about X? And people will say, you know, two. You know, it's not great. We're worried about this person. And so the trick then is when they give you a really low number, you say, gosh, two. Okay, well I'm glad you're here. Tell me why not a one? And when you say why not a one? Now this person is going to list off all the positive things in their life that are keeping them from being a one and not a two. And when a person is having a really rough time, whether it's like with anxiety or depression or something worse, you know, asking them why their day is bad and telling them to list off all the things like if you have a mom like mine and it makes me crazy when she does it. But of course I always feel better afterwards. You know, I call her and I'll be complaining about my day and she'll be like, yeah, Megan, sounds like you really need to count your blessings. Like this is that same sort of effect that you get energy where you put your brain, you know, and so if you are putting your brain or focusing your brain on the positive things, which the skin scaling questions can help you do very quickly, then that's more so how you'll feel. And yes, it's a quick, a quick little trip, but it makes a huge difference. And that follow up, follow up questions make you more likable. You know, I think that, that there's a different study that I love. I tell everybody about the study because I think it's just so funny. So I'll quickly tell you, please do.

We love studies.

I swear it was done by like sociologists. And so it makes me laugh because in my mind I think about like super nerdy sociologists and what did they study? Who gets a second date?

Yeah.

And so what they found, they, they watched these speed daters was what they were doing and they found, you know, tried to figure out who and why, you know, gets a second date. And what they found. The, like the most statistically significant consideration was who asked the best follow up questions. That's who gets a date. And you may be thinking follow up questions. Yeah, you know, I follow up and ask people things all the time. But it was very specific in that it had to keep the information on the person. So sometimes when I'm teaching, I. Well, I have a personal example, you know, you know, this example with my friend. So I was having a rough day a few weeks ago and I caught one of my friends called. You know, I'm like rattling off to her like all the crazy things that have happened. You know, I'm sick, I'm trying to work, my kids are sick, Everything's just crazy. And she's like, you know, kids are crazy. Just like, go have a glass of wine. You know, I've been having glass, like, I started at noon, you're fine. And you know, this is like a good thing, like a nice thing for a friend to say. Like, you know, she was trying to be supportive. But a couple hours later, my other friend calls, who happens to be a marriage and family therapist. Her name is Dr. Megan McCoy. She works with me at Kansas City University. And she, I tell her, you know, all the crazy things that are going on. And instead of saying, you know, this or that, she says, tell me how you're coping. Sounds like you have a lot going on. And so it became about me, not about my friend who had also just started drinking because her life was also crazy. You know, like it turned into. Sometimes it's easier to hear like, you know, a client again. I work with a lot of financial planners. A client comes in, it's like, oh, I'm going to Italy. And the advisor's like, great, you know, are you going to go to Rome? And the client's like, yeah, maybe I'm going to go to Rome. And the advisor's like, I've been to Rome. Okay? You just, you ask that follow up question to talk about you and your trip to Rome. And I will say, or it's important to point out that that did not have statistical significance in the opposite direction. You know, so it's natural as humans that we want to share our experiences. And you can. You ate at a really good restaurant. Of course you want to tell your friend that you know about that restaurant. So just think of that as like static. But then, you know, the other way where, like, oh my gosh, you're, you're, where are you going to go? You know, and then they say Rome and you're like, oh my gosh, where are you going to eat? You know, like asking them lots of questions about their experience and plans. This, this builds connection. We know in the brain, like neuropsychological studies that answering questions about yourself, you know, stimulates that prep pleasure center and it makes you feel more connected. And so doing this, you know, asking questions in the right way at the right time, using the dance between asking just a really good open ended question and then, you know, using some follow up questions, I love, I love studying that and, and the impact that it has, you know, on people's conversations.

Yeah. So when we think about that for work. Right. So I'm thinking about like, of course you work with a lot of, like you said, financial planners and you need people to open up and trust you to be willing to share some of the scarier things when it comes to money. Right. So like we've said, there are a lot of people listening that potentially have that aspect of their life and their job, but we have other things that people maybe are a little bit sensitive to talk about. If the end that psychological safety really matters and having it so that somebody trusts you enough to have any sort of conversation is valuable, whether it's your, your co worker, your employee or a client or customer or whatever it is. Right. Asking good thoughtful questions so that people feel safe with you is, is going to be beneficial for everybody.

Yeah. Right. Well, and to your point, or an additional point to make, questions in and of themselves don't make people feel safe. Right, yeah.

Tone really matters here.

Yeah, yeah, I joke the well joke, but it really happened, you know, Socrates was put to death, you know, and all, and he ran around asking people questions. And I hear people talk about the Socratic method. I'm sure everybody has seen a movie where there's like some mean evil professor that like uses Socratic methods. Nobody likes that. Nobody likes that. People hate those people. Don't be that person. So yes, asking questions, being curious about another person, this is really powerful for connection, but also thinking about the right way to phrase a question. Which questions are better phrased as statements. So instead of saying, okay, I'll give an example. Dishes are like always a fight in my house. And I could certainly say to my husband, what are you going to do with these dishes? You know, there's a right answer to that question and he knows what it is, you know, but this is sort of almost like instigating a fight. Whereas I could say, babe, tell me your plans for how we're going to get the dishes done. I'm still asking how we're going to get the dishes done. But I've now set it as a statement, not a question. And this has a very different response. Or will Solicit a very different response in the way that my husband responds. You know, am I on his team or is this about to be super contentious? These small changes in how we communicate can make huge ripple effects in the way that people respond to us.

It's interesting too. Like you think about that type of a questiony statement thing and like when you say it that way, I feel like that may also come off. Like in my house, if I was to be like, so, hey, like I see some dishes, you gonna tell what's your plan? Like, tell me about the plan for these. Like, I feel like that wouldn't fly.

Super well around here.

So we have to like find our right balance of stuff. And I think there's testing, right. Like a little bit of seeing what. And it's like what works for, for you. And like you can see there's a, like a way that you can say something that feels comfortable and someone can tell you're kind of comfortable or if they can tell you're uncomfortable, then it's kind of like feels weird. They don't want to answer. Right?

Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean any relationship or any conversation that you begin, you're 100% responsible for your 50%, you know, so if you're coming in like guns blazing about the dishes, it probably doesn't matter what you say, it's not going to solicit the best response, you know. So thinking about what you want to say and preparing yourself, like, how are. Well, we're online right now, but you know, even just are you standing? Are you laid back? Are you sitting, you know, open posture, closed posture, what direction are you know, are you holding your body? There is a lot of our communication they say 80%, you know, that comes through non verbal. And so if you look like you're ready for a fight, you know, walk into the kitchen and you're like feeling like moving around like a boxer, you know, and then you ask what's up with these? Yeah, this is probably not going to go well. And so just being, you know, a little bit aware of yourself, even in a small way can also. Yeah. Make a huge, huge difference.

Right. We've talked with the kids before where child like hey, Melina. And you go, what? Like is very different than yeah, right, right. Or, or what? You're like, what's up?

Right.

Is it, you know, even the same words the way you say it? And people, I think, know a lot of that aspect. I'm definitely going to link to.

So.

I know I told you I'm gonna link to Warren Berger's episode. When we talked about a more beautiful question, we also. I'm gonna link to Jonah Berger when he was here. We were talking about magic words, which is really valuable. And then also I had a conversation with Nick Epley that was really interesting. Tie into some of what you're talking about here. And he was talking about having better communication with people and how, you know, that slight difference in a question. There's kind of the default question that we ask people. So if you have. He was talking about, like, seeing people on the train and you know, like, hey, where. What are you up to? Or where are you going? And somebody says they're going to work. And you say, like, oh, yeah, you. You like it there or what? Like work or something, right? You just sort of leave it where it is and like, what do you do? Sort of question. It just kind of has this like. Like thuds of questions. Even though it's a question, it's not really interesting because we get asked those same kind of surface level questions all the time. And he asked something to the effect of, oh, is that what you always wanted to do? Where someone said they were like a software engineer or something? Like, oh, is that. Did you always want to do that? And you go, huh?

Like, it's just.

It makes you think a little bit differently. And you get to this deeper level of connection when you ask that, like, actually interested question. Like, you were saying the thing about Rome, like, oh, I'm going to Rome. And you go, cool, like, what made you decide to go there? Or have you been there before? Or what are you most excited to do? Like, again, the helping. Let them talk because they obviously want to talk about the thing they brought up in some way.

Yes, this is a really, really good point. Okay, so you can almost. I got this from a researcher who actually does interview research. And the book that she wrote is Listen like youe Mean it. And I'm going to pronounce her last name wrong, but her first name is Ximena X I M A and her last name is Bingocha. B E N G O E C H E A And in this book she talks about, you know, her job is to get people to talk to her. And she talks about, you know, there's always the fact that she envisions it like an iceberg, where the fact is at the top, then there's meaning and then there's feeling. And these are like in the bottom of the iceberg. And yeah, a lot of times we ask questions where the first response is some Sort of fact, you know, oh, where are you going? Work, you know, like, and when they answer like that, you know, you, to, to the point that you just made about oh, is that something that you've always wanted to do? Whatever this work it is that you're going to like what, you know, that can get more at the meaning, you know, and you can ask then another follow up question about how, like how, how does that make you feel? So like in the financial space this happens all the time. You know, you may have somebody come in and the financial planner says something to the effect of like, so, you know, tell me about your financial ecosystem. You know, just like tell me about all your assets. What's, what do you got? And maybe somebody's like, yeah, you know, I've got four 401ks. Why did they say that? Like yes, I know I just asked a question about their financial ecosystem. I know that the fact that they're responding with is that they have 441ks, but are they telling me that? Because that feels like a lot and they feel confused like that it just feels like it's out there and they're not sure what to do. Are they saying that because they want me to be impressed? You know, are they saying that because that was just like, it's just top of mind for them because they've been thinking about rolling one over. You know, like people never say things just to say things like we're not just like bird vomit and then like walk away. There's always meaning and feeling behind any fact. And if we take the time, you know, to ask a question that relates to the meaning or a question that relates to the feeling. Yes. This usually stops people cold in their tracks. You should count to five in your head before you say anything else so that they have a moment to think about, you know, what it is that you've asked them and be able to, to give you like a more interesting response.

So in that scenario, because I'm, I'm.

Guessing people are then wondering like, well, what is the follow up question that I can ask that's not assumptive. Right. So I don't want to be making that assumption that well, they're probably saying this because they think it's a lot.

Right?

And the, we don't want to be leading the conversation based on the question that we ask. And I think people try not to be the. Like there's sort of the quintessential therapy style of question of like, well, how does that make you feel? That a question that People don't like to ask that, but so if somebody asks about your financial ecosystem and they say they have four 401ks, and you know, it could be a multitude of reasons why we don't want to ask a biased question that's leading them to what we think the problem is. Do you have kind of a go to type of question that you can ask to help the person feel comfortable enough to get into the meaning or the feeling response?

Yeah. So if you watch, like, master interviewers like Oprah, or if you ever. Anybody's ever listened to, like, this American Life, awesome also as well. And they use a lot of what's called, whether they recognize it or not, reflection questions where, gosh, you know, like, you've just told me that you have 441 KS. Okay. So when I'm thinking about that, like, two things are coming up for me. One, this feels like, whoa, you know, that's like a lot of potential, like, disorganization, you know, the other thing that's coming up for me, and I want you to let me know, like, which one of these is actually right. That it's just like, you've worked really hard, you know, like, there. There's just like a lot out there, and there's probably, like, more assets like, which. Which one is right? And so you can tell them, you know, like, what it is that you're thinking, you're trying to reflect and get information back from them about, like, what's going on for you so that there can be a moment of connection. So this isn't really asking about how do you feel sometimes. This is getting into the meaning by simply letting them know, like, what's coming up for you? You know, is it like this or is it like that? When you say this, I'm hearing this. Is that right? And you can choose to reflect back all kinds of things. You can choose to reflect back emotion. Labeling is another term that comes from therapy, but also from mediation. So you have a person that's just going off about something. And a lot of times in those moments, we feel like we need to give them some advice. Like, oh, man, it sounds like you're. I'm not even good at giving advice anymore. My default is, it sounds like I.

Was gonna say, that's not advice. I heard what.

I know what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to say, man, it sounds like you're going through a lot. You know, sounds like you're really busy. This is very different than saying, gosh, you should probably like just tell your boss that you need a week off. You know, like when people, sometimes people need to talk and they just need to get it out. Like, like verbally processing their own stuff and letting them know that you hear them by either repeating back like, man, it sounds like you have a lot going on or man, it sounds like you're feeling kind of confused. People will correct you if you pick the wrong word, but you are still connecting with them and that you're letting them know what you hear and asking for the response back. And this is way more powerful in terms of building connection because you have to think about advice. And this can be work, this can be with our spouse. Advice is the thing that moves through the funnel. You know, that is the relationship. And if you have a crappy relationship, it doesn't matter what you put through that funnel. It's not going to matter. Like they've seen that all kinds with doctors, doctors that have horrible bedside manner. Nobody takes their advice because they think they're a jerk. It doesn't matter how smart that doctor is. It's the same thing for financial planners. Financial planners are brilliant people, you know, in many ways helping other people to change their lives. And if you are not a strong communicator, if you don't have a safe relationship with that client, it doesn't matter what you put through that funnel, they're not going to listen. Our personal relationships are the same. This is why teenagers fight with us. Because like the relationship at that point is really unstable because they're going through their stuff. You're trying to figure out what the heck they're going through. And you know when, when you're trying to like give your kid advice, they don't want to hear that.

Yeah, say, well, you should go.

Yeah, should. Shooting all over people never works.

No. Yeah, we definitely say that. Should is a four letter word here at the brainy business. And it's typically in the, the way of like, well, people should see the logic in this. People should buy it.

Like, no, I don't know anybody that's ever done anything really based on logic alone. You know, your mammalian brain is much larger than your tiny little logic brain. If you can't get your emotions on track with your logic, might as well throw logic out the window for sure.

Yeah, that's why we definitely try to communicate more on that subconscious space. As I like to use subconscious, it's just easier for people. So I did have one follow up question I'm realizing now, which had to do with where you were Saying like, well, I. Like in the reflecting, I think it could be this or this. Which one is it? I can see the value in giving a kind of an ultimatum if in that way. And sometimes is it. Is there a point where it's best to have two type of options, like, is it A or B versus like, why here, this and. And this. Are either of those, right? Or am I missing the mark? Like, that's maybe where I, I tend to be like really vague, I guess, in that. But still, still giving a path. Is there a point where you would.

Recommend one version over the other?

In my personal experience, like using reflective statements when I totally miss the mark on both people actually be like, none of that. I appreciate that you're trying to follow. I guess I need to be more clear or I'm going to restate xyz and then you'll go down a different path.

But potentially it's like a personal style. If you want to say, is it A or B or is it this? A, B or am I way off?

Right? Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, or option C. I listened, but I did not catch on. This is. You can certainly say it and that. I don't think it's going to hurt anything. But I'm, you know, I can think of examples of when I was like, is it this or this? And they're like, option F. You know, like, that's fine. You know, you're still doing. They still know you're trying to listen. They still know you're trying to follow along and through the reflection and correction. Because this is the other thing too. People might look at it as negative, like, I don't want to be wrong. I want A or B to be right so that they know I'm paying attention. But the thing is, people also don't like to give bad news. And, and so if a person is willing to say, actually it isn't those things, this in some ways is a sign that they actually trust you. Right? Because they're about to tell you that you're wrong, which is not something that a lot of people have a lot of comfort doing. So if you're able to solicit what feels like negative feedback in the moment, in many ways this is a sign that you've been a good communicator. They are open to correcting you because they believe that you really want to listen, which is what you were trying to do anyway, right?

Yeah, that's, I think, too, for people understanding the point of a question Right. So sometimes it's not the answer to the question, but it's the question. Not every question's job is to be answered. And knowing that this question might be something that helps get us to a future point in the conversation, it's helping.

Them to feel more comfortable.

It's just you can't be trying to get from, like, nice to meet you, to, like, tell me all about all of your financial decisions you've ever made in your whole life and how you feel about money from when you were a child or what. You know, it's like there's too much that you're trying to have in those questions. So asking really good ones and just even, like you said, showing that you're listening and that you care is. Is a really important aspect there for people to feel safe and. And everything.

I want to make sure we have.

Some time to talk about. You were sharing before we started recording about a study in the value of human connection that comes with questions and how questions actually can turn us into superheroes, which I would love if you could share a little bit about.

It does take jumps to get there.

I love it. But I'm making sure we're getting there. By setting us up to go superhero?

Yes, please. Yeah. So there's been research done, longitudinal research, where. Where they looked at people who were, like, coming into a hospital who've managed to, like, wound themselves. You know, like, maybe they've cut their arm open. I don't know. In my case, like, trying to open a bagel or something. So they. They have a. They're hurt, and they come in, and one of the things that they ask is, how many close, positive, personal relationships do you have? And what they found was that people that have a greater number of positive relationships in their life, they heal faster. There is zero reason that that should necessarily happen. But what that says to me and what that says to the power of communication is that when we are good communicators and we love people and we allow ourselves to be loved, and we express that through positive communication, we become superhuman. You know, like, we don't need, like. I grew up in an era where, like, my brother, I had three brothers and. Or have three brothers, and they were, like, obsessed with, like, Wolverine, you know, and he heals fast because he has, like, alamantium skeleton and, like, claws and stuff. Like, you don't need that. You just loving other people and being a good communicator and people loving you because you're a good communicator, this makes you superhuman. And I think about that and I'm just like, yes, let's quit teaching trigonometry and let's teach people solution focus questions or nonviolent communication or how to ask an open ended question or how to reflect or how to label. Let's teach them that because that seems a lot more useful than trig. In fact, there'll be people that are really good at trig. And if you're a really good communicator, you can get help from those people that are really good at trig. You don't actually need to know it yourself. So that's a bit of a soapbox. Like, I don't know that I agree with all of the things that are taught in grade school versus all the life skills that I have in my life. Trig's not one of them. But being a good communicator changes your life and changes the lives of others. And questions is a part of that. Being interested in other people, like genuinely interested in other people as a part of that and recognizing that most people aren't used to good communicators. Not everybody has a friend like Dr. Megan McCoy who calls and says, gosh, Meg, sounds like you're going through a lot. Tell me how you're coping. A lot of people have like my other friend who is a great friend. And a lot of us have people like, I love my husband, but he likes to respond to things that I say, like with advice. So he wouldn't have even said wine. He definitely wouldn't have said cope. He would have been like, maybe you should think about rearranging your schedule. And I would have been like, maybe you should think about a new wife. But that is like beside the point. So how we respond to people, you know, can build up our relationships and just being open to that. And I encourage, like my students, for example, if you've never experienced, experienced therapeutic communication, like, you don't have to go to a therapist because anything's wrong with you, you can go to a therapist anytime you want. And as a person that wants to know what it feels like to have a really good communicator in the room, try going to therapy. Like get listened to. And it will change your life in the way that what such simple changes, using commands over straight up questions, recognizing that most people respond with the fact, but there's usually meaning and feeling behind it and practicing, you know, like labeling or the scaling questions even. Try like anybody listening tonight? You know, try to try a scaling question tonight. Like your spouse comes home, you say, hey, how was your day? You know, scale of 1 to 10, just throw it out there. They'll kind of look at you weird for a second, but then they'll be like, you know, seven. And you could be like, okay, so why wasn't a six? You know, you can get them to talk about the good things, or you could be like, well, what would have made the day an 8? You can do both. You know, both are entirely fine. And the types of conversations that will come from that are drastically different than how was your day? Fine. What's for dinner?

The end. Yeah, I love that. And I think that's a really great tactic that people can go try their scaling questions. Do you have any other. As we go to wrap up. So that was something to try with the spouse. I'm sure it works with, you know, colleagues and things as well. But if we think about, you know, for anybody that has, you know, another type of question that maybe people could use, is there another kind of go to question that people could test out? We'll just say at work if they wanted to try one.

This one actually works probably better at work than it would work at home. And the funny thing or the fun thing about this one is that it doesn't actually require that you remember a question. This is more in how you use the pause and what you say back. So somebody maybe walks into your office and they're like, man, today's been crazy. And you just say, today's been crazy. And then wait five seconds and they'll be like, yeah, like, all this stuff is just piling up on my desk. And you're like, stuff's piling up on your desk. This is called mirroring. And you just repeat back what you say. We again, there's lots of research that's been done on couples, and couples tend to do this naturally. Like the ones that stay together for a long time, they mirror each other, they have the same speech patterns, they say similar things. We do this with our kids all the time. You know, how often as a parent do you repeat back to your child? And sometimes when your kids too, like mine, and also goes relatively back and forth between Spanish and English, a lot of times you are really doing it to be like, what on earth did you just say? But this feels really good because it. It feels like I'm being listened to. And so it isn't even a question at all. It's. It's just repeating back what you hear and then not saying anything for a little bit. So mirroring can be a really good One another one that I think works well, although people are pretty divided on whether or not they like it is just to say, gosh, you know, I'm really curious about that. Tell me more. You don't. You don't have to make it about anything. You know, just let it be about them. Just say, gosh, I'm really curious about that. Tell me more. It's a question, but it's coming in the form of a command, and it can, you know, again, this. Your spouse comes home, you know, they say, oh, my gosh, I've had, like, a crazy day. You can say, wow. Like, I'm really curious. I'm curious about your day. Tell me what happened. What was so crazy. You know, this is very different, but, you know, a very small change. Not a difficult one to try. The other one that usually gets people going pretty good is labeling. You know, anytime someone just, like, tells you a bunch of stuff, you know, you can say, wow, you know, it sounds like. Or I'm hearing you say, your inflection sounds to me like, you know, and these are just great ways to let people know that you're. That you're listening and that you want them to continue.

Yeah. My friend Kwame Christian, who has a extensive background in mediation, he hosts the Negotiate Anything podcast. He's amazing. He's written books about difficult conversations and everything. And he has his framework, which he calls the Coffee Compassionate Curiosity framework. I'll link to his episode in the show notes. But in his labeling, one of his emotions that he's found as the most valuable one is to say frustrated. Like, it's. I'm hearing that maybe you're a little bit frustrated. Is that right? You know, sort of response. And he said, like, frustrated is one that people typically are like, no, I'm not frustrated. I'm angry. Which is like, whoa, it's even more than what I thought. Or. No, I'm not frustrated. I'm just a little bit, like, stressed out about it, like you. But it's one, like, where it's neutral enough, but one that people want to adjust from. So I know that was a word that he had. He's found that in, like, mediation and stuff, that that ends up being a pretty solid word.

But, yeah. And recognizing that with questions, you know, you can control in the sense of, like, you know, list your blessings, like, you can control where people decide to put their effort and interest. And I sometimes think that that is an easy one that's overlooked. You have to be a little bit cautious. You know, if someone comes in and they're just crying and you're like, tell me the 10 things that are great today. You know, this is not going to work. But, you know, I do think that we choose where we put our energy and when we, when we're with other people and it's a close relationship where we can encourage people to focus on something else or look at, you know, the bright side of things. I think this can be very powerful.

For sure. Definitely. Well, I'm all about that and just being thoughtful in the question that you ask and where you are hoping the conversation will go. And I would say too, just building on some of what you were saying there. I think there's, there's value in being prepared and having an idea of the type of question you might ask. And there's nothing better than actually listening and, and getting interested in what the person is talking about and asking a question about them that you would actually like to know the answer to. Like to help them to talk. I know Brian Ahern talks about this too, so I'll link to his episode. But his tip being, you know, if you're going off of Cialdini's method of liking. Right. And that you want people to like you, but the best way to get people to like you is to find out how you can like them and genuinely be interested and ask those sorts of questions because you really want to learn more. And like you said, people like to talk about themselves.

So. Yeah, pleasure centers in the brain. You want someone to like you. Yeah. Get them to talk about themselves.

Perfect.

Well, for everyone who does want to learn more and to connect with you and ask all sorts of questions and get question asking tips, where would you recommend that they go to do that?

I would say either Twitter or LinkedIn, which my Megan is spelled pretty weird. So, uh, it's not too hard to find. Like my Twitter is literally like Megan with an L, you know, but Megan, the way I spell it. And I believe that my LinkedIn is the same. It's just like my name. So those are great places to find me and you know, send me like, oh, this happened. You know, write about that or this, this, make sure you talk about that. Like, I always get back to people eventually. So those are probably the best ways to find me and interact with me.

Perfect.

If you're really interested, I am a teacher at a few different places. Come take a class.

Awesome. Well, we'll definitely link to it in the show notes so that people can find you and learn more and read.

Your stuff and whatnot.

So Again, Megan, thanks so much for joining me on the show. It was fun to think and talk about questions with you.

Same.

Thank you again to Dr. Megan Lurtz for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, you know how much I love questions and I love this perspective that Megan adds about something that people traditionally hate to talk about but where it's so important and can be really.

Impactful if they are willing to open up.

While I know how important this is for everyone who works in financial services.

This is something credit unions, banks, financial.

Advisors and the like have been trying to crack for years. These insights also apply to anything else you may be working on. Every industry has its spots where people don't feel comfortable, where they might hold back and you can be someone that people are more naturally wanting to engage with and have great conversations with. And that's something that can help you advance in your career whatever you do, as well as helping your clients, customers, peers and employees to be more likely to succeed. Which is awesome. Plus superhuman healing powers. Yes, please. How are you going to use questions moving forward? Which type of question that Megan introduced today are you most excited to try? Come share it with us on social media. I'm the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. And as Megan said, the spelling on her name's a little different. First name is Mega, H A N last name L U R T Z. So keep that in mind when you search. There are of course links in the show notes to make it easy, along with related past episodes and books, as well as a timestamped summary of the conversation and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 341 and thank you again to Dr. Megan Lurts for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.