347. Unlocking Business Success: Boost Productivity and Efficiency with Nick Sonnenberg

Welcome to episode 347 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Nick Sonnenberg, CEO of Leverage and author of Come up for Air. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Nick Sonnenberg. Nick is an entrepreneur, Wall Street Journal best selling author, Inc. Columnist and guest lecturer at Columbia University. He is the founder and CEO of Leverage, a leading operational efficiency consultancy that helps companies implement implement the CPR Business Efficiency framework outlined in his book Come up for Air, which we are definitely discussing today. This is the culmination of Nick's unique perspective on the value of time, efficiency and automation, which stems partly from the eight years he spent working as a high frequency trader on Wall Street. The CPR Business Efficiency Framework consistently results in greater output, less stress, happier employees, and the potential to gain an extra full day per week in productivity per person just by using the right tools in the right way at the right time. Nick and his team have worked with organizations of all sizes and across all industries from high growth startups to Fortune 10. I could gush about his book for hours, but I'm going to refrain and just jump right into the discussion because I can't wait for you to learn from Nick really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show notes for everything including related past episodes, links to articles and books including Come up for Air and a full time stamp summary of the episode, and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 347. Now let's jump right in. Nick Sonnenberg, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Oh yeah, I'm super excited to talk with you today. I have been quoting your book nonstop and talking about all the things I'm going to be working on. So I'm very excited to connect. For everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about your background and the work that you do?

Yeah, sure. So my background is actually in finance. I was a algorithmic trader on Wall street for eight years. And in that job I'm coding computers based off of math formulas I'd create, trying to capture fractions of a penny fully automated. And so I kind of in that space, developed this, this muscle for automation and the value of time. Because a microsecond can mean millions. You fast forward a handful of years. I was, I did that for eight years and then I got into startups and my company leverage. We grew very quickly. The first year we were a freelancer marketplace. So I've always been obsessed with time and the value of time and, you know, whether it was high frequency trading and literally you would have to obsess over a microsecond or in leverage, which in the initial version was a freelancer marketplace. It's always been, how do we save time? And my journey with leverage is quite interesting. We grew very quickly in the first year. Too quickly, frankly. We grew to seven figures in the first year. 150 people on the team just by leveraging systems and tools and automation in smart ways. But under the hood, we were a mess. Like, we had a lot. We, we had a lot of operational debt. And one day, one day I'm having a coffee in our co working space that we'd work at with my partner and we're sitting there laptopping and he taps me on the shoulder and tells me he's out. Not in two weeks, not in two days. He's out in like two minutes. And I'm sitting there holding my coffee and I go white thinking like, holy crap, we're going to go bankrupt. Because although we had this large team and a lot of revenue, you know, we had all these, all these problems. Like, for example, we had an org chart, just the two of us. He was the head of people, as head of non people. So literally no one knew who I was. We had three quarters of a million dollars in debt, losing half a million a year. And so I had to make a decision. Do I bankrupt the company or do I try to fix things? And I realized in that moment it's a fixable problem. The issues that we had under the hood. And I started analyzing kind of where we were tripping up. And I knew that the biggest limiting factor was back to time. Like I could fix these things if I only had an extra, you know, handful of hours a week that would just give me the breathing room. And it's a challenge. Like when you're just scrambling, you're working a lot of hours, you're stuck working in your business. When you want to work on your business. And finding it takes time to make time. And I started analyzing kind of where I was wasting time and communication was just all over the place. It was taking up an exorbitant amount of time listening to the pings and dings and everyone trying to grab my attention. So I knew I needed to clean that up. Then I knew that it wasn't easy to answer basic questions around who's working on what. So I knew I had to solve planning and then I knew that it was important to be able to have some standard operating procedures and have a basic point of reference in terms of the right way of doing things. And I'd already started doing that and what I found was like this CPR framework, communicate, plan resource, started very quickly turning things around and simultaneously people started reaching out to me, asking me to consult them on their company. So like Tony Robbins, poo pourri, cryptocurrencies. And what was really interesting was it didn't matter if you were, you know, a poop spray or a million dollar a year financial advisor, you, everyone needed to be communicating better, planning better and they all had resources. And so I had this light bulb moment around, hey, maybe the real business here is developing content and IP and training teams and companies on when and how to best use all these modern day technologies to maximize the efficiency of a team or an organization. And here we are. And that's what my book is about. And that's my long winded way of explaining what I do as an entrepreneur now, which is I run a company called Leverage which does all this stuff. We do all the training and consulting for teams of all sizes to make sure that people are successful and using these tools. Right. And you know, ultimately we're seeing crazy results of like a full business day plus per week back per employee if you just use the right tools in the right ways.

Yeah. Oh well, as I said I, I really enjoyed your book. It's funny for like you and my husband would absolutely be best friends. Like no question, you are so like similar approach on things and, and whatnot. That, and it's a lot of things that he has said to me over the years but I would say like, so I'm like I need you to read this book because it's like I don't know if it's the way it was explained or it's just like far enough removed. It just like feels better to me that I'm excited about.

What does your husband do?

He actually was intending to be like investing in trading. That's what he went to School for. He's a chief revenue officer of a financial institution with a master's in data analytics.

Oh cool. I have a background in that stuff.

Yeah.

Give him a copy of my book, see what he thinks.

Yeah, we've definitely. He's heard me talking about it to be sure. I really like the way that you communicated about the value of time. And there are multiple points throughout the book where you showcase the little saving and how it can have an impact. So the reason we got introduced is someone who is a fan of, you know, my work in books. I had asked who I should be talking to. They recommended you and I think because of my second book, what your employees need and can't tell you. And I talk about how change happens in micro moments and how we make these little decisions and it's important where when people are under time pressure, they make worse decisions and they're less creative. And it's like all very similar space in that, so. And I liked some of the studies you quoted. Different ones than I had. It's always fun to see that sort of stuff. But like I said, I like the case studies, you included. I liked the, a lot of the value you were able to showcase. Do you have any kind of like for someone who knows that they are needing to make some changes, they're feeling the stress, they're feeling like they're pulled in too many directions. They know their team's not as effective as it should be, whether that's a team of one or a team of a thousand, and they need some help. Is there a particular place you like to start? I know you break down of course the book into internal communication and email and all these different aspects.

Yeah, I mean there's so many different places to start. Right. Because I can guarantee you, if you're listening right now, there's probably thousands of opportunities to save time and they all have different levels of effort and different returns on time. Just like you have return on investment, you have return on time. So you know, kind of being strategic with what's going to give you the best return on time. Meaning, you know, maybe if, if you can clean something up in five hours and then for the rest of your life you save 10 hours a month. That's a pretty high return on time. Other things might take six months of a full time person to fix and it might be hugely valuable, but you know, it's just a higher upfront investment. And what we have found and we've actually kind of like totally changed kind of our business, our funnel with our business around this because we've spoken to literally thousands of people and analyzed what's broken, what's the biggest impact. And what we found was the, the most, the, the highest return on time thing that we, that we've seen we're able to do for people is what we call our foundations program, which is you one, you teach people when to use each of these tools. You teach people what's the purpose of email versus Slack versus Asana versus this. Because people need to know where to put, put information because that's what's causing the scavenger hunt issue that we see in businesses. You know, it's like where did, where was that thing? Nick told me? And then you've got to look in text, email, Slack, Asana, you got to look in 10 different places. So the first thing is you, you align your team on what are the different buckets or drawers, so to speak, where information should live. And the underlying principle of my book is that to be a high performing organization, you want to be optimizing for speed of retrieval of information, not for speed of transfer. So you want to align your team around that concept and that everyone should take pause and put things in the right drawer where they belong. And even if it takes an extra five seconds to put something in the right Slack channel instead of a text message, it's okay. Because if everyone's doing that now, everything's well organized, you're not going to have to waste an hour and a month from now doing it. So getting a mutual agreement amongst your team on what are the different tools and when at Company ABC are we going to use each tool? That's a quick win. It doesn't require being a rocket scientist to do that. Then also what we have found after that is start with email. Optimizing how you use email is probably the highest return on time system activity that you could possibly do. It's literally within five hours. It's, it's unbelievable the transformation. We're able to teach you a new way of thinking about email. It's just an external to do list that you, that other people can add to. And we're able to teach you the best practices of inbox versus archive, snoozing, search folders, settings and within five hours you know how and when to use email and get your inbox down to zero. That can save you 10 hours a month and give you the breathing room to then go and do whatever that next thing is. But the most important thing is you need to get some breathing room if you're Currently drowning, you know, you're in a tough spot and most people right now are drowning in work. And if you are drowning in work, the only way to get out is you have to find a quick win to give even an hour extra a week. That could be huge if you're drowning and take that extra time and kind of put it to the side, carve it out and play with those chips. In terms of cleaning, you know, reinvesting it back into the system and cleaning up things, the next thing so, you know, you get your email to zero. Now you're saving 10 hours a month. Use 5, 6, 7, 8 out of those 10 hours and use that for the next thing, which maybe is how you use another tool or cleaning up how you run meetings or whatever it is. And it's kind of this snowball effect where you just kind of, I keep reinvesting back in and you turn that 10 hours a month into 15 hours a month, into 20 hours a month, into 23 hours a month. Before you know it, you know, maybe you can be saving 30 hours a month quickly. And the cool thing is, which is what I'm passionate about is that's just for one individual. If you can save 30 hours a month or 360 hours a year, if you're a team of 10, that's 3,600 hours back to the company. And like, that's crazy how valuable that can be. Like, imagine what your business would be like with just like a gift of 3,600 hours extra for people to build stuff for you. So I'm really interested in kind of the scalability of this stuff and which is why I'm really passionate and obsessed on like, how a team or an organization can be more efficient. And then, sorry, back to email. Another benefit of email versus other tools is it's a single user activity, meaning, I hesitate to say the word challenge, but something that you have to work through is the change management. And with some of these tools, you're going to find people that resist it or like refuse to for a long time to open up that tool. And so the early adopters get punished because they're putting something into the tool. But half your team still wants to use text or Outlook or whatever it is with email, even if no one else in the company or your team wants to adopt the best practices, you get the full benefit. So it's like, you know, your loss, I'm saving the 10 hours a month. Does that make sense?

Definitely. And such a great opportunity to start the process, right? To know that if you are ready to do something, you can do it now, that you don't need approval from a boss, you don't have to invest in any new tools. You can just shift your own perspective and approach and like you said, clean up your own email and have some sort of a plan for where to find things. And then ideally, when people will look at you and say, hey, like, how come you're getting so much more done or you seem less stressed than the rest of us, what are you doing? You know, maybe you get some more people to adopt.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, you mentioned meetings and I, you know, working on the value of time again here and saying about, you know, cutting the 15 minutes sort of deal, which, oh, this is like I'm one of those people. It's like I can't possibly. How am I supposed to find everything out that I need in 15 minutes? Or how could we, how could we do the discovery call in that time? I need at least half an hour. But knowing the way that you've proposed, you know, cutting the 15 minutes or 5 or 10 or whatever it is, is compelling, I will say. You want to talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. So you know a lot. A large part of my book is all around how you can save time. And this framework, cpr, helps you to save time by being organized and using tools when they should be used and how they should be used. But then I also point out in the book that it's not just about saving time, it's about optimizing time. And that time isn't linear. Not every time slot on your calendar is worth the same. For example, you know, Monday at 9am after a relaxing weekend and you've just woken up and had your kombucha or workout or your journaled, whatever you, whatever you're doing, your brain is going to be at full horsepower that our time slot from 9 to 10 might be worth 10 hours of a different time slot. Right. So like if you're, if your hourly rate is, I don't know, $50 an hour in general, the 9:00am on a Monday might be worth 250 versus Friday at 7:00 clock after a long week and 100 Zoom calls for the week and you're in the back of an Uber with no wi fi and no laptop, Maybe that's worth $10 an hour, that time slot. So you know, how can you acknowledge this and optimize around it? And so one of the examples I use in the book is, you know, if you can save time at the high value time slots and do like a time shift and now make better use of time in those low value time slots that could be worth millions of dollars to a company, right? So oftentimes meetings are longer than they need to be for multiple reasons. There wasn't proper pre work. You know, Amazon is famous for like a six page like pre read that people kind of have to read before kind of the meeting starts. So pre work, like have you given people information to read beforehand to make the meeting more productive? I talk about this tool Loom, which is like a screen recording tool. Oftentimes you can communicate a lot of stuff via loom. So you know, do meetings really need to be. As long as they need to be. Like, what if you were to give people pre reads or videos and things, could you cut it down? Like most of the time you can. So mo. And then another thing is a lot of, a lot of meetings don't have agendas so they just go off the rails. It's. There's no clear purpose or goals of the meeting meeting people aren't taking action items or decisions. And so even if you just take though that point about Loom, if you, if you were to take an hour long meeting and cut it down to 40 minute, 45 minutes, right? If it's a team of four, that's like an hour of time savings at potentially the super high value time slot. And imagine if you could just send out like a 15 minute pre record that people now watch when they're in the back of an Uber, right? So for me, the purpose of a meeting is it requires synchronous collaboration. You need to come to a decision and there's back and forth pinging and you don't want to, you know, send a 10 second video and then like have to wait and someone else, like there is a clear purpose for meetings, but if you're having meetings where people are just like talking at you for 15 minutes, why not just record yourself going on that rant? And now we can watch it on our own time. I could go on a walk. The weather was nice today in New York. I could go on a walk and listen to it, you know, versus like if it's live in a meeting, like I can't be getting my vitamin D. I gotta be sitting here on a screen. So as much as you can do asynchronously better.

Yeah, and I liked the point you were making. I love Loom and I've used it for years. It is nice that a lot of the things I'm Already doing a lot of what was in the book. And it's like, ooh, a little tweak here, a little tweak there. I'm excited for all the things I'm implementing and, you know, for others I work with. But it's funny how we like to think that people can only listen to us, like at the speed at which we speak. Right. Like this. This the way. I'm ready to talk to you today and you want to hear me in the meeting. And it's easy for our minds to wander because it takes you maybe a little bit longer to get to the point than you realize. And I knew what you were talking about like three minutes ago. And so this like two times speed or one and a half times speed.

Great point. I'm glad, I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, I listen to most of the limbs at 2x spe now. Actually, as of this week, Loom just came out with like a AI add on that, like can do like summaries of looms and action items. I. I believe I haven't played with it yet, but I just signed up, so I'm looking forward.

But totally check it out. You.

There might be also something that takes a little bit more thinking and, you know, you actually want to rewatch. So that's another benefit too. Like I can go and rewatch. I could take these looms and I could stick it in coda, our knowledge base. And now anyone can go and, you know, look at it if they need to, you know, see something.

For sure. Yep. And then you can see on some Loom videos too. I think you can. Even then, if people wanted to have comments or a discussion or chat on things, you can see who's been watching and have multiple people engage in a way that can be helpful for. For some in a way that you don't get in the meeting when everyone's just existing in the same place at the same time.

Yep. Loom is my preferred. But you could also in certain cases, like I was on a trip once in Bali and I didn't have wi fi and I was on a two hour cab ride and I just used my iPhone audio recorder and I did 5 to 10 minute brain dumps for each of my direct reports. And when I got back to the hotel, I just sent them that in Slack and I made very productive use of that car ride that most, you know, most people that would have just been a dead two hours.

Yeah, no, that's great. Really a good way to think about, like you said, the Value of time and how it's different in different scenarios. And while it might be like it could have been a nothing, but if you take some time to step back and know all of what you're needing to complete and where you're going at the end, and like this little thing could go into this slot right when you're looking to optimize, it just opens everything up in a really interesting way that can help bring value to. To all those points.

Totally.

Yeah. Well, as we look to close out our conversation, we're being efficient with our time today, of course, and for everyone who's listening while they're walking and everything. But one of the things that I really think is so important that's in your book and it's getting there right at the end. And I think it's good for people to think about before they jump in. For everyone who I know is going to go buy this book immediately after listening to this is understanding your own bandwidth and thinking about it in a space that is. Should be really obvious. And we know these things, but when it's kind of spelled out of how we can calculate how much time we really have can help make the case for why you need to do all of these other things.

Yeah. So in the book I talk about Sprint planning and like kind of mapping out kind of your ideal week or month or whatever time period you like to kind of plan. And something that I hear often is like, people get to the end of the week and they're like, man, I worked my ass off, but I didn't even put a dent into what I was hoping to accomplish. And I, I developed kind of this very simple, kind of obvious, but people just don't do Sprint planning. Like this framework for doing Sprint planning. And basically it's, you start with kind of what's your capacity. So like, what is. You could just take a piece of paper and a pen right now and write this out and kind of follow along. But what's your capacity? Like, what's an ideal work week in terms of number of hours? You know, let's just say 40 for, you know, just easy, easy math and kind of standard. Okay, so 40 hours of capacity and then it's like, okay, well what can I accomplish this week? And you don't have actually 40 hours towards doing projects or new initiatives because you've got pre commitments. Like take a look at your calendar. What are all the meetings that you've already got? So it's 40 minus calendar events. So say that's 15 hours in the week for calendar events. So now, you know, 40 -15, you're down to 25, but you still don't even have 25 because there's things that just you need to do to keep the lights on. So, you know, you've got emails to respond to, Slack and Microsoft Teams, messages, systems, hygiene and maintenance that all might take, you know, another 15 hours. So now that 25 is down to 10, so out of 40 hours, you might actually only have 10 hours towards, you know, new initiatives or projects and stuff. So, you know, a lot of the times though, you're like telling your boss you're planning out, like, oh, I'm going to get all this done. I got like this stuff. And when you add it up, it's like, yeah, it adds up to 40 hours, but actually like you've got 30 hours of pre commitment there to take into account, which is also why it's so impactful some of this stuff because if you can give people back an extra 10 hours a week, you're oftentimes actually doubling, like literally you're doubling the amount of available time they have for those new initiatives. So an extra 10 hours a week sometimes is actually in some respects doubling their productivity when you factor in kind of the, kind of deep, like just kind of the dead, the dead time that just you need to account for to keep the lights on. So yeah, that's, that's the way you should be thinking about how much you can accomplish in a week.

Oh yeah, I love that. And I think for people too, where you don't have to get all the time back and that it all goes to like right back into company either because balance is really important. And so people that are stretched super thin and don't have any time to be, be doing anything that they would enjoy, it feels like, and you're starting to get burnt out, you know, getting that time back like one when you're more efficient and productive and you're actually checking things off your to do list. There's a lot of brainy benefit in that and feeling more motivated and that snowballs in a positive way. And now maybe you can go back to that yoga class that you've been missing or you get to go have dinner with friends once a week or have a phone call, go for a walk, whatever. Things that will help you to be really feeling more complete and calm in a way that's going to just benefit everybody and everything.

For sure.

Yeah. Is there anything that I should have asked about that you think is really important for people to know as they think about optimizing their work and life.

Well, I'll end with this. I mean, I already touched on kind of the central concept of the book is changing the mindset to optimizing for retrieving information versus transferring information. And I just want to highlight that in our personal lives, we already think like this. Like, when you do your laundry, the fastest way to be done with your laundry would be you take everything out of the dryer and just throw it in a drawer. But you don't do that. You invest the time to separate the socks in one drawer, the underwear in another drawer. Not because it's the fastest way to be done with your laundry, but you know that tomorrow when you need to put an outfit together, it's much faster to find what you're looking for to put an outfit together. And it's the same thing in business. We've got all these different drawers that information can live in. And you should invest the time to put stuff in the right drawer so that tomorrow when you need to find what you're looking for and when your colleagues need to find what you're. What they're looking for, it's exponentially faster to retrieve. And so that's, if you take anything away from kind of today's chat and.

The book, it's that, yeah, I love that point. It's something that we, again, you know it and you, you, you hear it and you get it. I love that sort of stuff. Right? Like you hear it and you didn't necessarily think about it in that way before, but it's said in such a way that you're like, of course, like, why, why have I been so silly for all these years? You know, totally perfect. Well, Nick, for everyone who is now so excited to get their copy of Come up for Air and to follow and learn more from you, you know, what's their next best path to do? So.

Yeah, so you can go to come up4air.com you can find out info on the book. The book is like a 320 page long book. There's no fluff. It's, it's pretty dense with content. And you know, I'm a productivity geek, so you can imagine like from. It would probably be like a 1400 page book for a lot of people. But HarperCollins didn't want me adding any more pages to it. So on that website there's a lot of bonus materials. So throughout the book we say, you know, go to comeupfor air.com to get, you know, the quiz or the calculator or the PDF of this. So on that website you can find out info to get the book but also all of our bonus content which is really valuable. And then if you need help with getting any training in any of the tools that we talk about, getleverage.com is my training and consulting company that helps businesses train and use all these tools properly.

Awesome. Well, we will definitely be linking to those in the show notes and for people to follow you on LinkedIn and all that good stuff so they can learn more, gain the wisdom and I'm excited for all the hours and dollars that will be saved for everyone listening. So thanks again Nick for taking the time today. It's been great to chat with you.

You too. Thanks for having me.

Thank you again to Nick Sonnenberg for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation for me? As you've heard on this episode and the one on Planning Fallacy that I refreshed in anticipation of this one. It just came out a couple days ago. I love, love love this book and got so much great insight from it that I was able to implement in my business right away. This book really came to me at the right time because I had already been laying the groundwork for a lot of these concepts for the last year or so. You definitely don't need to have that much background before you can benefit, of course, but it really just hit me at the perfect time where I was able to make a last few tweaks to help everything really just click into place. I by nature am not a procedures and processes person. I really hate writing them. I know why they're important and I'm glad when they exist. But creating? Ugh. I'll put that off for ages. And as a small business owner that's been a solopreneur for a lot of my time here in the brainy business, it's easy to say what's the point? And put that off until I need to have it. Now I know this is something that plagues all sorts of small business owners and even not so small businesses, because most of us don't love creating policies and procedures. The funny thing is though, you often can't expand and grow in the right way until you have them. It may feel like a chicken and egg problem, but it really isn't. Having the optimization first makes it so much easier to hire and grow and get more clients and have more time and and so many other great things as Nick talked about on the episode today and he shares all throughout his book, he regularly gives people full days of productive time back each week. And across a team and a whole company, that makes a big difference. All those projects you've been putting off, until you have more time, you can actually now have the time. And the great thing is it really isn't that hard. One of the key things that resonated for me was to focus on the quick retrieval of information instead of the quick transfer of information. How often have you wasted time trying to find where you saved that document, or to get that piece of information for a client, or to find that email or was it in a slack message or a text? When you have a way you do things and can find them easily, those processes become habits and and as a listener of this show, you know what habits do for efficiency. It lets your subconscious handle the bulk of the processing so you don't have to deal with the slow conscious brain, which is a big win. Spending a little bit of time thinking about the plan and process up front is so worth it in the long run. And this is just one of the many, many tips in Nick's fantastic book Come up for air. It is of course linked for you in the show notes and if you liked this episode, I'm linking to my conversation with Marcie Rader about her book work well, play more as it's very closely related. It was awesome to be reading these both at the same time as they really shaped my perspective on how I wanted to uplevel my business. And you can too. Marcy's episode is linked for you in the show notes as well as both of those books and and more. And before we close out the show, I want to be sure to thank Timothy lynch for responding to a call out I put on LinkedIn asking for potential guests and who everyone would like to have me talk to on the show. Such a great suggestion. I'm so thankful to have been connected to Nick. So thank you again to Tim and everyone who responded to that post. If you aren't yet connected with me on social media, please do so. There are links in the show notes and you don't have to wait for me to ask. If there's a topic you want to know more about or a guest you think would be a great fit for the show, please share it with me at any time. You can share on social media. I'm the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. Or you can send an email to melinathebrainybusiness.com if you prefer. I can't wait to hear from you those show notes, which include links to related past episodes and books including come up for Air, a full time stamped summary of the episode, ways to connect with myself and Nick, and more. They're all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 347. And thank you again to Nick Sonnenberg for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brain episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

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