365. Unlocking Business Potential: Implementing Brain-Friendly Practices with Felicity Heathcote-Marcz

Welcome to episode 365 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy in today's episode, I'm excited to have Dr. Felicity Heathcote marks back on the show. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation I am joined by Dr. Felicity Heathcote marks who was on the show once before talking about her work in ethnographic research. Yes, we will talk a little about.

What that is and what it means.

In today's episode if you aren't yet familiar and her previous episode is linked.

In the show notes for you as well.

Felicity will introduce herself in a moment, but here's a little bit about her. She specializes in immersive research methodologies providing rigorous research design and project outcomes to both large and small organizations. In her new consultancy, Bare Analysis, Felicity aims to bridge traditional boundaries between academic approaches to ethnography and industrial practices to ensure clients gain unique and highly valuable insights and and solutions. Felicity has led and carried out behavioral research projects for large public and private sector clients utilizing ethnographic research methods along with other mixed methods approaches to achieve operational and customer focused findings and results. Felicity has also led on high profile social value work engaging with stakeholders to ensure the impacts of interventions are fully understood. Felicity has also undertaken unique ethnographic work with traffic officers on the Strategic Road Network and one of the largest banking technology centers in Europe. These ethnographies have allowed her valuable insight into socio technical systems and the cultures which emerge in specific organizational spaces. These commercial ethnographies provide rich data for clients that support business change recommendations both operational and and strategic. Really quickly before we get into the conversation and she can tell you more.

About what all that means.

I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything including related past episodes, links to articles and books, a full timestamp summary of the episode and so much more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 365 now let's jump right in. Dr. Felicity Heathcote Marks, welcome back to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thank you so much Melina. Really happy to be here. Thank you for having me back.

Of course.

I'm so excited.

I know we've been talking about this coming back again for a while now, so it's exciting to have it come.

To fruition and be able to chat with you again.

I see you on LinkedIn all the time and it's so nice to be.

Able to actually have a conversation.

And what is better than a recorded conversation for the whole world to listen to, right? For our culture, nothing. So for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself, your background and the work that you do?

Yes, absolutely. Thanks, Melina. So I am a doctor of Ethnography, which is an immersive research method. It's using anthropological research methods to understand businesses. So I'm an ethnographer of organizations first and foremost. And exciting news for me really recently is that I have set up my own business called Bare Analysis. That's B A R E Analysis. This is an insight consultancy and we bring together a network of freelancers and access to partner organizations to deliver research projects predominantly and also services that support insight and research. So strategy, creative marketing, UX or user experience and also like accessibility services and project management if required as well. So only work with experts. Really, really excited to have been setting this up just, just last month actually. And for me it's really exciting time because, you know, we've been hearing a lot recently about, currently we're in this time of disruption, this time of change, uncertainty with, you know, the economy and geopolitics and like all these shifts in power and priorities and that's really impacting organizations. And I think it could be seen as a really scary time to start a business or to start anything new. Right. Like people are sort of hunkering down. But actually for me it's, it's perfect because everything is up for recoding if you like. So, you know, the rules of the game are kind of ready to be made new into this new almost like image of what is really essential. Like what do businesses really need? What, what, you know, services do we have to keep doing? And you know, for me, insight and research is, is really up there and this sort of time of uncertainty has just made it more apparent that we need really good insight and research. And so Bare Analysis, I've sort of set this up with the ethos that we want to provide our clients with insights they really need, what's really essential, whether that's solving problems that they already know that they have or identifying problems that are yet to be known but that really need to be tackled. So those unknown unknowns, if you like, I Think they're just becoming more and more important to acknowledge and to understand. And it got me thinking as well in our last conversation. It kind of goes back to that image of the cyborg, which I don't think we got a chance to talk about fully last time that we spoke. But the cyborg really underpinned my PhD research and my first forays into ethnography and into immersive research methods. And for me, it was Donna Haraway's image of this cyborg as this, you know, quite powerful feminist image and this chimera, if you like, this kind of monster that can bring together lots of different domains and be lots of different things. Quite chameleon like. And I think, you know, Bear has, has grown up from, from that. For, for me, it's, it's almost the logical conclusion of, of some of that work. And, you know, having kind of worked in industry for, for some years now and seeing this real need for things like ethnography and for insight that will inform the decision making in a way that can bring together real specialist skill sets and, you know, different domains, different kinds of sectors, because things are just so siloed, you know, normally and. Yeah, and also kind of trying to inform different kinds of clients who are trying to solve problems in different contexts. That's really the kind of work that Bar Analysis is developing at and that's what we aim to excel at. So. So hope that wasn't too long winded and that sort of answered the question.

Oh, never. Yeah, it's always great to be able to talk through and I love being, having this conversation at such an early point in this new journey for you with Bear Analysis. That's a really cool opportunity for us and being able to hear what has you so inspired and excited, which I know there are plenty of people who are small businesses owners, entrepreneurs, what have you that are listening to the show, that tune in often and they can relate to that. That moment where you've been thinking about something for a really long time and trying to shape it and bring it together. Out of curiosity, since you're in that moment now, I know there are also people who kind of are living on the fence maybe right now, trying to decide if they should make that leap or, or not. Do you have any insights into some of the process that you went into, Lessons learned in getting started, knowing again? It's been a few weeks since you launched fully.

Oh, wow, that's a great question. I think I'm probably still in that newbie camp that needs to be getting you know, tips and mentored by, by, by other more, more seasoned business owners. And I've been doing just that, actually. So I suppose that would be one tip from, from me, you know, having kind of gone into this and I mean, I, I'd worked, you know, I'd done freelance work before, worked myself a little bit previously and had always been a little bit entrepreneurial at school and sort of, you know, made a bit of money in the playground, you know, selling various things like rings, like random things like that. But this is the first time, you know, sort of taking it very seriously. You know, you have to get all the admin set up and, you know, have to kind of make know, know what you're doing, you know, self assessment and things like that. So I suppose, yeah, what one of the tips I would suggest anyone thinking about starting a new business should do is go and seek out others to be mentors. You know, those who have been running their own businesses successfully for many years, you know, those that you would admire and you feel inspired by. You know, even if there are people, for example, you follow on LinkedIn, but you don't know them, you know, reach out to them, you know, see if they'll get coffee with you, see if they'll just share some of their knowledge and insights with you from, from their time. I've been really lucky in that I've, I've been able to get some great mentorship from, from some, some folks who, yeah, have either mentored me more formally, like through the Market Research Society, for example. Jennifer Brennan. SHOUT OUT she was, she was fantastic that we've continued that relationship. And also others, for example, this Wallace, again. SHOUT OUT she, she was the MD of Sarah Consulting for many years, really, you know, successful consultancy. So it's just fantastic, I think, especially if you're a female, seeking out other women who have, who have done that as well and will give you a unique kind of insight. But yeah, I think that's, that's probably like the best tip that I can give at the moment. I mean, it's, it's really exciting that you are in the driving seat of your own future and success. And I think if you've got that entrepreneurial spirit, you'll probably end up doing it at some point because, you know, it just might take, you know, something to push you in one direction or another. Um, but, you know, sometimes the stars just align, right? And it's like, this is the right time now. Even, like I say, if it seems scary or seems like economically, you know, you want to Kind of batten down the hatches. Sometimes that's the best time to actually throw a bit of caution to the wind and say right now I'm going to believe in myself, I'm going to do this, you know, I'm going to make this work and go for what I want in life. And I think, yeah, that's probably the best advice I, I could give anybody. Any advice others have, please, please let me know.

Yeah, I know. I was just as you were talking and thinking, it's like we need a, some sort of contingent or, or cohort of, of experts in this or just even the like people to go ask who've been there before sort of deal. So I know that I've had so many people over the years that, you know, we connect and they go, ah, so, so I'm so curious like you have your own thing like how did you do this? What does that look like?

Right.

I get that question a lot. So I know that the listeners are, are thinking about that and I'm sure that for you it be, it's really second nature at this point because you have a lifestyle, be it in real life or in business only or training I suppose of being really good at asking questions and observing and learning from. Because of your work in ethnography and of course background in anthropology. And so do you have any tips? Knowing we'll of course link to your past episode where we really talked about ethnography and what it is in the show notes for everyone. But if you were going to give a tip for someone who is a little bit nervous or scared about asking people questions and doesn't even know how they might do that or trying to observe better, you know, what might you suggest? Whether it's about, you know, starting a business or something else.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think for, for me putting that research hat on, even if you're not a researcher and thinking about approaching somebody to have, have a discussion, you know, have a conversation that's meaningful in, in any way, you, you should almost, you know, imagine putting a even literal, you know, research hat on.

And yes, yes, please put a literal research hat on.

Everyone required.

Mandatory. You must put that on. Okay, sorry, continue.

No, that's, that, that's all the end. But one of the things that we try and do as researchers is called active listening, which, which many of your listeners may have heard of before or, or if not, it's really this practice of trying to be fully present in the, in the moment and, and you know, focused on what your interlocutor should we call them, you know, some of your kind of. Because you're co creating knowledge with whoever you're talking to really as a researcher, if you've got that research hat on, the questions you're asking are informing something. You know, you're creating some kind of dialog, some kind of knowledge. So by doing that active listening, it's, it's really trying to make sure that you're staying in that present moment. And with ethnography and the praxis which needs to be really self reflective and self reflective, you need to be really aware of your own body and your own head and what you're doing, but trying to stay in that moment, trying not to become distracted or even be too, you know, led by your own research questions. Actually you need to be led by that person and the story that that person wants to tell you. So you might approach somebody and you know, you want to get their tips for starting a business or whatever it might be, which is fine, you can kind of start off like that. But that person will have their own story and will have their own, you know, narrative and way of telling you those, those tips and, and they might have things that they want to say that aren't, you know, part of the narrative you're sort of looking to get out of them. So not seeing a dialogue as a kind of, you know, means to an end or something that's too transactional, but really being present in that story and then things can emerge, you know, the unexpected. Let's space for the unexpected come up. So yeah, I think that's, that's probably what I would, what I would say in terms of advice about that.

Wonderful.

That led me to one follow up.

Question which is do you have a.

And I think this comes up for any sort of. If someone's looking to start to be more curious and just like dip their toe into the idea of ethnography in the work that they're doing. Like do you have a go to opening question that you ask people or a way that you. Because you have to like introduce yourself to different types of people that you're potentially nothing like and you need them to trust you and be open to a conversation very, very quickly and to show that you're, you know, to be inviting enough but not overly eager. Right. I feel like there's this whole balance of the right way in. So do you have a go to question that or statement or anything that you do in that process?

To be honest, Malia, not really. Because like you say it really does depend on that context and on those different stakeholders that you're talking to. So being able to become part of that stakeholders world and like you say, letting that stakeholder trust, you will depend very much on your free research, if you like. So, you know, try and understand as much about their context as possible. So, you know, if this is somebody in a customer service role, understand as much you can about that organization. You know, maybe go in and do a mystery shop as a customer, you know, understand what that experience is like, what's happening in that business at the moment. Go and do your desktop research. Again, it really depends on the context of why you're there as well. Because if you're there doing an academic research study, you might not be too bothered about a lot of the politics, for example, that is going along there. But if you're in as a consultant and you've been brought in by management, you'll have some, you know, added issue to get over or kind of barrier to get over in that your interlocutors may think that you're there as a spy or kind of, you know, to judge them or their performance and that sort of thing, thing which, you know, it can happen, ethnographers can be used for that sort of thing by managers. But the best way to again have that dialogue that's, that's authentic and truthful and you can build trust and you can really get the insight that you want from those kinds of stakeholders is to go in and make sure that they understand that this is, you know, following the ethics of any good ethnography. This is not anonymized response research. Nothing they say will be kind of used against them, as it were, in the future. They are protected and you care about them as a stakeholder, you know, you're really there to listen and hear and understand their true perspective. So yeah, in terms of opening questions, I mean, it will really depend on that first sort of desktop research and on who you're speaking to. But if you can get a sense of their concerns and a sense of, you know, what's really driving them at the moment, that might be, you know, really different. If you're talking to say, the C suite or if you're talking to someone at the coal face. But yeah, definitely, if anyone is thinking about doing that, speak to an ethnographer and yeah, do, do your homework. I would say yes, I think that.

What I see in this, especially as people get nervous or anxious and if they're getting into a point where they're asking something, where they feel like they have something to gain. I think that people then tend to really lean on that like self deprecating chatter, like weird rambling in a way that is like apologizing for taking the person's time but like way over the top in a way that I think would then make this person kind of be questioning like why am I even here? Why did I commit to this thing? And so I think that there, that feels like to me in one of the big, don't do this sort of world, you know, like hold yourself back from that. And in my opinion that the best way things to keep in mind are you have very limited time with this person, you're trying to learn from them.

So you speaking the least amount possible.

Is probably the goal.

Absolutely. And I think that's a great point. You know, you can go in there and you could maybe because of nerves or maybe you've not done your research and you know, you're not confident in what you're saying. You could end up like you say, becoming self deprecating or rambling, etc. And it is really, you're there as a listener, as an active listener. You're there to record, record the experience of those stakeholders and to record the context and what's happening in that space. We can never be tabula rasas as researchers. You know, we're always going to go in there and we've got our baggage and we've got our models of looking at the world, etc. But as much as possible be aware of that and like you say, be aware of how much you're speaking and just try not to be putting your own, you know, kind of value judgments or your own questions too much at the center. Just, just let things happen. Just hang around. Let, let, let, let it happen. Yeah. And it will be great.

Definitely. I know, I think it's like in that case, if you're, you know, with the idea of doing an informational interview because you're going to, you're thinking about starting your own company, you could very quickly have that entire conversation just be you talking about what you're thinking you might do with your business instead of listening to what they had to say and making sure it's a good use of their time. So I think being thoughtful to that is, is a good additional first step. So.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, thank you for going on that fun. We'll say tangent, but I feel like.

It'S important for people that are listening.

Because like I said, I think, yeah, a good tangent. I don't know what Our word with that foray. Thank you for that foray into this additional conversation. I would love to hear, I guess.

A little bit more about. You were talking about some of the.

Like, work and research and where someone's bringing you in. When you were on the show before, we talked a bit about some work you were doing that had to do with transportation and, you know, observing how people drive and things, things like that. Do you have some additional examples of, you know, when do people need to have ethnography be a part of the work they're doing and how, you know, do you have examples of how you've helped to kind of change or shape a business?

Yeah, sure, absolutely. I think towards that first point of that question, you know, when should a business or an organization look to do some ethnography? I think it very much depends on what kind of question they are trying to answer. And sometimes the businesses and the organisations that really need ethnography are the ones that don't know it or that know it the least, you know, that they maybe haven't heard of it, haven't thought of it, or it's not really part of their current insight methodology, certainly not to deal with internal challenges. And that is often where ethnography can really shine and can really bring the value. You know, it's to support with internal stakeholder engagement, to support with problem definition, because it's the ethnographer going in at the beginning of a, if you like, discovery phase of any sort of project, you know, whether that's internal or external, that's where the emergence of the lived reality of the organization will be revealed. And if an organization can understand that from the beginning and understand the problem that they're trying to solve well enough, because we can never fully understand problems. We find that as researchers, there's always more, there's always another problem within a problem, etc. But if we can help businesses and organizations understand their problems well enough using tools like ethnography, using methods that are immersive and rich, then we'll be able to begin designing the right solutions, you know, at least pointing organizations in the direction they should be going in to try and start that solutionizing. Because I think a lot of us in consultancy, in business who work with clients, we find that often what will happen is that not enough effort and energy is expended at that beginning discovery stage in project to really understand the problem, to understand is this the right problem? Do we know what the problem is? Or is it going back to those, you know, unknown unknowns or known Unknowns. Once we, once we do that, then the solution can look really different from, well, we're not really going to bother with that. We're just going to jump to a technology or a solution. You know, like AI for example, is, is, you know, we hear so much now about, you know, AI and ChatGPT, etc. And actually while I was in Italy, I just got back from Italy today and I was there for a conference. I posted a little video about how we need more romance in our value propositions to our customers and this sort of idea of romance because yeah, we're hearing so much these days about sort of AI and yeah, you know, other things as well like mythologies like Agile and you know, technology platforms, etc. And it can be awfully sterile and technical and just dull, I think basically. And what we all really want is a story, you know, and it's, it's a compelling story. We want a narrative that can generate an emotional response and a connection to who we are. And you know, going back to ethnography, if we can do that for our clients and for organizations at the beginning of any project and help them to define that problem and help them to see their own organization or their own customers problems differently and create a narrative and create a compelling story, then that is much more valuable than just saying, right, we're going to bring in some AI to solve this thing over here. When have you really defined what the problem is? Is it really AI to solve that problem or is it because, you know, your staff are all fed up and there's a terrible culture? You know, it's, it's sometimes it really just needs that sort of in depth problem definition. And that's what ethnography can really help with.

Oh definitely. I, you know, in the preaching to the choir world and you know, the audience, you know, has heard me talk about it a lot. The problem you're solving, understanding the problem. I'll link to. I have an episode on it. It'll be in the show notes for everyone. And I know a question that I get asked a lot really ties into something you were just saying there is, you know, because I'm constantly talking about we need to ask more questions to fully understand the problem. It's super easy to find the right answer to the wrong question. We waste time and money on solving, you know, the wrong problems. And then, you know, the question is, but like, okay, I'm, I'm bought in on, on asking the questions and how do I know when to stop? Because we can also then Just spend our entire lifetime asking too many questions. And as you said, like we can never fully understand every single aspect of the problem. But like, do you have a response as far as helping to know, okay, this is like the problem or a big enough problem that it's worth focusing on here and how to any sort of, you know, telltale signs or things you found in your. As a good point to say, you know, now is time to transition from questioning to doing things. And I bet your answer is it depends. And if we can go beyond that, let's do that too.

Yes, yes, the predictable.

It's my go to. I've already said I knew. Okay, so we're gonna get either matching shirts or like mugs that say it depends on them. So happening.

Do you have a background in research? It depends. Yeah, absolutely. It's our go to phrase and say. So I think it's a really good question though, honestly. I think in reality that question. It's always bounded by your material conditions. Right. So it's always bounded by we've got this much budget or we've got this much time or you know, these stakeholders have one hour free on a Friday to define your help you define the problem and then we need to report in three weeks. So, you know, in reality those kinds of material conditions bound what that problem definition phase looks like. And I think the, the challenge for a lot of us from, you know, insight and research and consultancy backgrounds is to persuade client organizations to invest more time in the problem definition stage. Not in the, you know, technology build design, you know, other stages further, further down, which are fine, they're important. Absolutely. But we could be like you say, leader, you know, asking the wrong questions, building the wrong thing. If we don't get that right, it's so, so important. So, yeah, I mean, in an ideal world, I think we could, you know, create a whole epistemology around, you know, what's the right kind of problem, when do we know how well we've defined a problem, etc. But in reality, I think, you know, unfortunately those material conditions kind of block us in a little bit and often the debate needs to shift to we just need a little bit more time here to define the problem. And this is why we need that time, because it's important and it saves money further down the line and it will make sure that we're creating value for an organization, but also social value in the world if we can get it right first time. If you like. And be designing the right thing.

Yeah, definitely. So I know this becomes Our kind of choose your own adventure moment, I would say, which comes up often in the show where we can go as explained.

Right. Wherever.

What feels good to you. So I know that in kind of our pre talk we talked a little bit about, you mentioned the conference you were just at that was looking at futures and, you know, what's on the horizon for us. Some of that technology, you know, AI, machine learning, whatever, like aspects there and how that ties in or anything else.

In the future stuff I think is.

Good, or, you know, if you have a case study or worker research you've done that you think is really exciting or interesting, that has a, you know, surprising lesson that came out of the ethnography piece that people might not have expected, that can showcase kind of that value. And I would say the, I guess, third piece becomes. I know you have a chapter coming out in a new book soon, so if you wanted to talk about that and. Or if you want to talk about anything else.

Right.

Get to really say what feels good to you.

Perfect. This is the ME show now. Great.

It's been the ME Show. It's been the you show the whole time, for sure. All you meet me having a chat.

No, I won't. Yes, I won't turn that down. So, yes, I've been in Business Week in Venezia and Padua to Ben at a conference about futures and a couple of other events as well at the Italian Cultural Center. But the conference was really interesting because it was looking at, like you say, these, these trends for the sort of short term Future up to 2025 and models and risks and sort of how can we think about the future? And bare analysis fits really well into this because my aim is that we will support businesses, make sense of the future and what these different futures mean for them. And at the conference there was a really interesting concept, talked about plural singularities. So, and I talk about it a little bit in my LinkedIn video as well. But how the future at the moment is very fragmented and you've got, you know, those of us who've got very, very different sort of political and worldviews and that's informing our expectations of the future. You know, is it utopia? Is it dystopia? Is it, you know, is it AI? Is it all, you know, doomsday, you know, climate crisis, etc. And how can we sort of navigate that and how can we support organizations to understand what, what do those different plural futures, you know, mean mean for them and how can they navigate that? And at the moment, I'm supporting some clients to think about strategy and strategy for the sort of short and medium term for their organization and looking at futures. And I think again, now is a really interesting time because yes, you've got AI and you've got ChatGPT kind of coming along and changing the game for research specifically because now for the first time you've, you've got an algorithm that's able to sift through, you know, so much information and actually provide you with, with something quite, quite sensible. You know, really sort of sensible paragraphs of meaning in terms of, you know, a massive desktop review of whatever's published out there in the Internet. And, and really that, that's a literature review, right? You know, that that's the kind of research that, you know, many researchers have been, have been doing for, you know, a very long time. And, and Chat GPT has kind of come along and revolutionized that really quickly. And for me it was, it was interesting having it, having a think about that and the impact of these technologies for research and for insight because actually for me it shows that there's never been more need and more value than now for really insightful research that is embodied and that brings networked insights to bear on really complex questions that organizations have. So questions about culture, questions about people and politics and business, problems that organizations are really facing today. And they're not simple questions that can be, be answered by an algorithm, you know, that, that can, sure, you can do a desktop review, but how can we then make meaning from that and how can we then know what to do next and what that right decision is? So for me, yeah, it was, it was really interesting thinking about these themes at the conference and you know, in the next few weeks and months supporting some of my clients to be thinking about these things as well. So the fact that insights like that are never more needed than now, never more valuable and not sort of losing sight of that and feeling, oh, it's all been taken away by AI and algorithms like ChatGPT when actually it's not at all, it's really putting into quite stark relief how much we need that really good quality insight.

Definitely. While you were talking, I was reminded of, and it's like a snip of a video of something I saw in passing to where, apologies to the world that I have no idea who the professor was that was saying this and where they teach or anything along those lines. But there was a question that had to do with some tips on like, as you look at the problem that you have a lot of universities and things Having, with integrating, having students wanting to use ChatGPT, of course. And then you had issues where people were using the many people using that to write a paper or to answer whatever it is. And when you look at, I think really building on what we were just talking about and understanding the problem and like taking that step back and thinking about it in a different way where she was saying that, you know, you end up with, you know, the go to thing is we as the teacher, the university, the institution, the company, whatever, are trying to hold on to our own status quo of the way that we've always done things and how it should be done and how we did it. Right. And so you feel like, you know, it's. We're going to put up the. Trying to find new AI, like something an AI to identify the AI so we can catch someone when they tried to use Chat GPT or whatever else to write their paper. Right. That we're going to somehow, you know, you're layering all this complexity into it and you know, like she was saying, it's never gonna do as well as you think it should. And even like trying to shut down Wi Fi stuff or all these things, it's a whole mess.

Right.

To try to make that happen.

But if you instead stop and we.

Embrace that they are going to use it and this is a part of the future of their life now. Right. It's not that people need to know how to use this in the right way and what it can't do for you. So if instead your assignment is say go home like and do a first draft of this using Chat GPT to do the first draft of the paper and then you're going to come into the class and we're going to have a discussion about, and you're going to be working on like what questions come up for you based on the response that it gave and how might you look to expand on a certain thought? Like that it's using your knowledge in a new way and turning that into a tool instead of this thing to be afraid of and knowing people need new skills now. I think it's, it was such a prime example of how we just naturally get it wrong and how it's such an obvious way to do it when it's laid out for you that way. But I think very few people would naturally get there themselves and I think that has lessons for companies as well.

Yes, absolutely. And it's been interesting for me, speaking to some of my old colleagues who were still in academia who are still, you know, Marking papers from students and still very much in, in that world where, you know, cheating happens and it's always happened and whether it's sort of SA FARMS or now chatgpt, you know, any teacher worth their soul knows their students, they know their voice, they are fully aware when they've used ChatGPT to write their essay or to do their coursework, you know, and I think like you say, it's calling that out and saying, right, you know, you can't outsource your brain here. Like, you know, it's fine to use that as a maybe desktop review, you know, as a research tool for doing that, but those tools around thinking critically, being able to write properly, you know, create an argument and evaluate different perspectives, those are things that are critical for students, any kind of student, but also critical for organizations. You know, when they're hiring and you know, when they're bringing in consultants, etc. The last thing that an organization is going to want and the most unvaluable thing for them would be just to hire someone that's going to use CHAT GPT, right, to create research and create value. Because that isn't creating value, that's already there. Anybody can do that. And so, yeah, again, it just demonstrates to me the real importance of having those skills and they're actually more valuable than they ever have been because now Everybody can use ChatGPT.

So yeah, and I think that it's. The tool is only as good as the questions, you know, to ask and being able to understand when something comes back and you can say, no, that's not what I meant. How do I ask this in a different way? Right. You can deduce what's happening there and if you don't have that underlying knowledge, it's not as useful of a tool as it could be. So there it's an interesting balance and I think conundrum for, for people moving forward, which it'll be interesting to see how that all comes together as time goes on. So in just do you have any.

Last things that you might want to touch on?

Just a last pointer thought before we.

Close out the show.

I will just plug that book chapter actually. Thank you, Melina, for the reminder. Yes, I do have, I'm delighted to have a book chapter coming out with my co collaborator, Dr. Sadiq Mohammed. So we have got a chapter in Emerald's upcoming title, Ethnographies of Work. And this actually gets us back to the relevance of ethnography from covering hidden problems and solutions for organizations. So our book chapter focuses on A set of ethnographic vignettes or kind of mini stories from my time doing ethnography with traffic officers. So those folks who are out there on the strategic road network in England, so basically our motorway network and major A roads who are supporting people that have broken down but also doing so much more, you know, dealing with incidents, they support police, ambulance and fire when there are incidents as well. Clear debris, you know, they do a lot of things. They are not a first responder or emergency service but they, they do a lot of the things that those services do. And it's quite an interesting kind of politics. And it was absolutely fascinating spending time with traffic officers and also those who work behind the scenes at the call centres, taking SOS calls from the SOS phones, etc. Really amazing the job they do and really important. And it's one of those hidden jobs, if you like, that we don't often get to see or hear about. So ethnography was used as this technique to fully explain, explore the embodied realities of being a traffic officer. And this work was able to reveal the importance of the concept of the breakdown. So that's what we're exploring in the, in the book chapter. So we talk about breakdowns not just as this, you know, thing that happens on the side of the motorway in a car that's one kind of breakdown, but we also have this concept called the fractal of breakdown. So you've got breakdowns all the way down basically. So all the way from your macroeconomic cost of living crisis, you know, meaning that drivers sort of forced to skimp on their maintenance and breakdown cover and even putting petrol into their cars so therefore they break down. But also the breakdown of a rules based model of organization. So when you've got stakeholders doing dangerous jobs and you know, doing jobs with members of the public and it's very dynamic environment out there on the, on the road network, on, you know, on the motorways especially you, you've got these moral dilemmas that are there every day and that traffic officers are having to navigate and that, you know, image, almost sort of fixed image of an organization with rules and that, you know, it's got a certain hierarchy and it's got certain things you do and you don't do. That doesn't apply really in a, in an environment like that, you know, and it was fascinating to learn from these stakeholders how they did manage to kind of navigate, you know, what's written and you know, what's stated and the rules, if you like. But then the realities of, you know, somebody wants to jump off a bridge or you know, somebody is at risk of harming others, etc. And they're first on scene. Like often they'll have to make it to decision even if that's really difficult from an embodied point of view and not, not easy and not straightforward. So all these different kinds of sort of breakdown that we, we discovered. And again, ethnography was the only methodology that would have allowed us to get at that really interesting like embodied reality for that stakeholder groove and you know, therefore support the organization in understanding their own stakeholders and understanding what they want for the future and, and supporting the organization to create that more, you know, kind of knowledge based set of principles for the future that's, that's, you know, really based on that embodied rich lived experience. And I think that's something that a lot of organizations that want to improve culture, that are seeking to do culture change programs and support their own employees, they should really look to that methodology as a first point of call. Like we were saying earlier, sort of part of that discovery phase really because it can really reveal some amazing truths, home truths that can be really, really valuable for management to listen to.

Wonderful.

Well, congratulations on that chapter coming out. It looks like, assuming I found the right one. Don't know that there are tons of books called Ethnographies of work, but looks like it's coming out in December of 2023 here.

Which means in the fun sort of.

Meta world that comes with this type of life, while it has not yet come out, it will have already come out by the time the episode comes out. So there will be a link in the show notes for everyone to check that as well as ways to get in contact with you and to help them on their journey to learn more and connect with you. You know, what's the best way for them to do that?

Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Would love to hear from any of your listeners, Melina. They can contact me on LinkedIn I think would be where I mostly hang out. So it's Felicity Heathcote Marks M A R C Z on LinkedIn's Only One of Me. So you will, you will find me. I'm also on Twitter sharpsister as well and if anyone wants to shoot me an email, it's felicityair-annalogy.co.uk. that's B A R E analysis.

Perfect. And we never put emails in the show notes because I care about your inbox and spam is real. And so for everyone who was listening and you want to go, you know, rewind 30 seconds. Write that down. That's great. And we'll definitely put the links though to your website and to your Twitter, slash X whatever we call it these days, LinkedIn to the book. I know. So it'll all be waiting for everyone. And Felicity, thanks again so much for the great conversation and joining me again on the show today.

Thanks so much, Melina. Really happy to be there among all your glittering Illuminati. Thanks for having me.

Ah, I love it.

The glittering Illuminati is the new go.

To descriptor for for guests of the podcast.

Thanks. Thank you again to Dr. Felicity Heathcote marks for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I always enjoy speaking with Felicity and anyone with a background in anthropology, ethnography and similar fields. This focus on humans and how they interact together, the cultural norms and insights into how people really great. It's so fascinating and important for businesses, whether you realize it or not, there are so many tribes and groups with different norms within your organization. You're part of some of them, but not all of them. So having someone come in who can evaluate those groups and help provide important insights about how to communicate with them, what to know about them, what motivates them, what drives their behavior, the slang terms they use, all all sorts of things, they can be so important when it comes to applying behavioral economics and any of the other work you're doing. And yes, this applies both to your customers and your internal teams. It's fascinating stuff. And as you heard a little already, this isn't the first time we're talking about it here on the Brainy Business. There are links to several past episodes in the show. Notes for you if you want to expand your learnings in this area, including.

My first conversation with Felicity, my first.

Interview with Priscilla McKinney on how anthropology and marketing go hand in hand, as well as last week's episode with Leanne Potter on being a cyber anthropologist and why that matters in business. Links to all those related past episodes and books, as well as ways to connect with Felicity and check out Bare Analysis are waiting for you in the show. Notes for the episode, which can be found within the app you're listening to and atthebrainybusiness.com 365 and thank you again to Dr. Felicity Heathcote Marks for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.