383. The Power of Ritual w/ Michael Norton

Welcome to episode 383 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Michael Norton, author of the Ritual Effect. Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Dr. Michael Norton. Mike is a professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School. His research on topics ranging from the hazards of humble bragging to the rewards of matchmaking and volunteering have been published in top academic journals as well as popular media outlets like the Wall Street Journal, cnn, Forbes, and the New York Times. He co authored Happy Money with Elizabeth Dunn, which was named by the Washington Post as a book every leader should read. He received his PhD in social psychology from Princeton University, and I'm so excited to have him with me on the show today. If you've been tuned in for the last couple of episodes, you know that Mike did the initial research on the IKEA effect, which we definitely talk about.

Today, to get some of the behind.

The scenes of that concept, including why they chose that name and not the Lego effect or the Bionicle effect or something like that. And he's the author of the new book the Ritual Effect, which is what we're mainly discussing today. If you're ready to learn the difference between a habit, a routine and a ritual, and why ritual is so important in our lives and how to incorporate more of them so you can increase your presence within your life, work and relationships. Stay tuned really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including my top related past episodes, articles and books, including the Ritual Effect and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com383 now.

Let'S jump right in.

Dr. Michael Norton, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yes, as I've already gushed to you and I'm sure in the intro outro that I'll be recording later, everyone will know how excited I am that you're here and there's so much background. But for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about Yourself and the work that you do.

Yeah. I'm a professor at Harvard Business School. I'm a psychologist by training, so I kind of do behavioral economics, psychology research about what weird things humans do. But then I'm at a business school, so I also look at how they play out in companies and our relationships and in other areas of life as well.

Yes. And that. I mean, that's the jam. That's the total vibe around here. So you're definitely the perfect fit for the show, Zane. Like, where it belongs. So excited to be talking about rituals with you today and your new book, the ritual effect. As I mentioned to you, we've talked about habits a lot on the show, and so if. Can you share a little bit with everyone about the difference between a habit, a ritual, a routine, you know, how these things come up and why it matters.

One of the ways that I think about the differences. It's a silly question, but I'm gonna ask you anyway. So when you're in the morning or when you're getting ready for bed, do you shower first and then brush your teeth, or do you brush your teeth and then shower?

And so I am one of those people in the it doesn't make any difference to me category. And what I thought was very funny in reading the book, I used to brush my teeth in the shower, which you made a joke about how, like, no one should ever do that because they're terrible. Now that. Yeah. So that is not one of my routines. But I bet for everyone listening, they've got a. A camp that they fall into. Right?

Yeah. It's funny. So in. Across, like, lots of different audiences when I ask that question, what's weird is for humans, it's about half. So half of people say they shower and then brush their teeth, and half of people say they brush their teeth and then shower. And often I can even see in the audience people looking at each other like, what's. What's wrong with you? How could you do it in the opposite order? But you're right. So if the next question that I would ask is, like, imagine doing your thing in the other order. So, you know, if you brush your teeth and then shower, imagine tomorrow, I told you to shower and then brush your teeth. And I just say, does that bug you in any way? Do you feel weird about doing it in the other order? And about half of people are like, you. Where they're like, I don't care. I could do it in any order. What difference does it make? But about half of people say something like, I don't like it. And if I say why, they say, I don't know, but I don't like it. And I wouldn't feel ready for the day. I wouldn't feel right. And that is a little bit. If you think of habits and rituals as a continuum, the. I don't care what order it's done in. It's more of a habit. So you're going to make sure to do those behaviors in the way, you know, every morning at the same time, you want to do those behaviors, but you're just doing them to get them done. Whereas a ritual is when you do behaviors, you care, there's more emotion in them. So you care all of a sudden about the order in which you do them. Flipping them feels weird. That's getting you more toward the ritual end of the continuum. It's not like people in robes chanting with candles, obviously, but it moves you toward. There's more meaning in the actions than just the actions themselves. And that's one of the ways that we start to say for this person, this is more of a ritual than just a habit.

Right. Or I don't have the toothbrushing and shower ceremony each day. Yes.

Yeah.

But someone might, though.

No shame.

No shame. If it's a ceremony for you, for.

Sure, that that was their only win of the day, that everything was downhill after the morning routine because they could control the morning routine after that. Off the rails.

Yeah. You know, we. Those wins, you got to take them where you can get them. So can you share a little bit then, about how you got interested in rituals and. And habits and this, like, what was the. Feels like a slippery slope more of. As you start to. Or like, you pull up the sweater and you're like, wait, what? What? What? And you keep finding more and more about it. Can you share, like, how'd you even get into this?

The very first thing that. That got me. I mean, I've been interested in behavior changes. Lots of people are. And better habits and, you know, how can we help people, including ourselves, have better habits? The rituals thing came about very different. It's kind of a totally different track at first. Then later it's clear that they became related. But I was reading the former president of Harvard, Drew Gilpin Faust, wrote this amazing book on the American Civil War. This is going to be really nerdy. Sorry. But she wrote this amazing book, Civil War, and she talked about how in the south in particular, the casualty rates were so incredibly high that there was a level of death that had not happened before. And the question is, what do cultures do when things like that happen? And they can do all kinds of things to deal with that kind of grief. But one of the things she talks about is they came up with new rituals. So we all, we've all heard of funerals and we know that when people die, there's a funeral, but when there's that much loss, you have to do something else. You have to do something unique. And so this culture, and it's funny because it wasn't like people got together and decided, but what emerged was different mourning and grieving practices. Like in particular, you wore black for a while, then gray for a while, then you could add lavender a little bit and then you could go back to dressing the way you did. So that's interesting. Just like, why do we use clothing and stages of clothing to try to help us with our grief? But the coolest thing that she wrote about was that the amount of time that each of the phases lasted depended on how close you were to the person. Some these numbers are totally not right. But if it was your husband, a year of black, a year of gray, and then lavender, and if it was your sixth cousin, it was a week and a week and a week, making it up, something like that. And that to me is so interesting. Right? Because when you're in grief, if people have grieved, it feels never ending. It feels like the state will never get better when you're in deep grief. And this idea that you could look down at yourself, literally look down at yourself and see gray and think, maybe I am doing a little bit better than I was. And in fact, everyone else has been using this black and gray and lavender thing and they seem to be okay also. Maybe I'll do it as well. And for me that was just so fascinating. Number one, that we come up with new stuff all the time. It's not just, you know, 10,000 year old, 2,000 year old things that are official, we make them up all the time. And the question really was like, what role do they really play? And it started with grief and as you said, it kind of snowballed to all these different domains.

Yeah, the chapter on mourning in the book was. I was definitely being teary eyed multiple times while reading it. So just to put out there of like a very well written chapter, the whole book is of course well written, but it was one that, you know, just hit me at the right points.

Or whatever it is while I was reading it.

So. And I think it was just a really interesting, like you said, the idea of the transition of. And where, you know, in this. In our culture, black is a color associated with grief and mourning. But that's not the case everywhere. And it is. I love the openness that can come with learning about anything. Right. But to see, you know, while for us it's of black, for others it's white, for some it's yellow. And so as you were digging in, you know, on this, I guess, what's the research process look like as you just start digging up and finding more information? Because, you know, for one, that chapter on mourning was toward the end of the book. I think it's chapter 10, maybe. And so as you. But it, you know, like you said, that was the beginning of your journey. And so it's interesting, you know, how it all comes together and how you break things up. I always ask people about how they write books, so we'll just transition to that too, I think.

Yeah, that was. It was too sad of a chapter to open with the feedback, open with something a little more uplifting. But I mean, the. What's been so interesting about studying rituals is first off, people have been studying rituals forever. So there's an enormous amount of research by sociologists, by anthropologists, documenting just the, I'm saying, insane as a positive thing, insane variety of rituals that humans engage in. So mining. That is always very interesting. And then right after that, you start comparing and contrasting cultures. And color is a great one. Everybody uses color in some way or another, but what color they use is very culture specific. So literally, the way that we start the project is we just ask people, like, think of somebody that you lost. What did you do? And people will say something like, well, there was a funeral. You know, they'll say the official thing. But then we found that they would then say something else private that they did themselves that honored that person in particular. And that was a real insight that, you know, rituals, for sure, they are the official, culturally sanctioned, you know, religious history, for sure, those are rituals. But what got me really so interested in them, and partly because I think I'm a psychologist, was individual people coming up with their own to try to honor somebody they lost. The woman that I think of all the time she wrote she kept washing her husband's car every week because he had done that when he was alive. Now there's no text that says car washing is a grievous ritual. You know what I mean? Cars did not exist 2000 years ago, for example, so we know there weren't. But you can see how meaningful it is to this woman to continue to honor her husband in this way. And the other thing that was so interesting was that sometimes when people tell us about their rituals, grieving or in any domain, they kind of. It's like they're confessing them. They kind of. You know, I never really shared this with anybody because it's kind of weird. But what I do before a meeting or. But what I do with my spouse or what I do when I lost this person I care about is this very idiosyncratic, specific thing. And that kind of opened up the whole world, which is, my God, what are people doing? They do the public things that we all know about, but what are we all doing behind the scenes with ritual to try to help us through our day?

Yeah, well, and that definitely just opened up for me in the. When we think about sports and how much. And you said about the meeting or. I know in the book, you talk about some of your students before a test or if you're going in for preparing to give a big speech. And what I love about the sports piece in particular, so with some of these people really know, and it's a very conscious process. You do this, and then you do this, and this is the step, and then I do this three times. And that feels like the ritual. But what I like about the sports piece is that you don't even have to really, like, be consciously aware of what it is, but other people, you can see it happen again and again, even if you're not thinking about it. So can you share a little bit of those examples we see?

You know, sports are a very funny one because they. They happen in public. So any rituals that people have, they're right out there on the field. So we get to see them. And we allow very talented athletes, I shouldn't say insane again, an enormously wide latitude on what they're allowed to do that we would never allow to, for example, our spouse or our coworker. So if you think of, like, Nadal is one of my favorites because he does a very complex ritual before every serve, including picking a wedgie out of his butt, which is. Again. But we allow it because he's so good at what he does. But if, like, his boss suddenly, before every speech, bounced a ball 12 times and, you know, did all this stuff, we wouldn't allow him. He'd be like, I think she's lost her mind. So we have this funny kind of calibration where if we know something is really, really hard, we'll accept pretty much anything that people do because we understand it. And then what's acceptable kind of comes back and back and back from that until it's like I'm just preparing for a meeting that probably nobody cares about anyway. And those ones I do privately, I do them a little bit by myself. People go into the bathroom, talk to themselves in the mirror. You know, all of these behaviors that people do before they go on. We see them constantly turning to them when they're feeling like they need to do something to prepare.

Yeah, yeah. Just watched the movie, and now I can't think of the. But the grand. What? The. The kid that played the video game of race car driving and then ends up being able to get the spot. And I don't know why I can't think of the Gran Turismo or something.

Maybe is what it is.

But where, you know, he's listening to Enya and Kenny G, like, before, you know, the big. Any of the drives or races, even, you know, getting prepped for the simulator that he's gonna play. And it's, you know, definitely getting into some of those rituals. So what's the importance of ritual? Why do we need them? And I guess we can transition maybe for that work context. Right. And is it something that. It is that we want to be adding ritual into our life? Do we want less of them, more of them, better ones? You know, what's the kind of goal with ritual?

I think that we. One reason why I find them so fascinating is because we use them across so many domains of our lives. So we use them if we have to perform. We use them when we're eating and drinking. You know, we do toasts and things like this. We do them at family holidays. We do them with our romantic partners. We do them with our sports teams. We do them with our teams at work. You know, we use them when we're grieving, as we talked about. So it's almost like life gives us these things to deal with, and we do lots of things to deal with them. But across all of them, for some reason, humans tend to bring ritual as one of the tools that they try to use to cope with whatever it is that's happening. It could be coping, like, let's get really excited about the game. It could be coping, like, let's see if we can reduce our grief. But we're still, no matter what, turning to ritual in one way or another. Not all of us, not all of the time. But so often people are turning to ritual to help them in these kinds of situations. And at work, we see it really In a bunch of ways, but we see it kind of starting your day. We see them in what people do in their teams at work, and then we also see them when people are trying to leave work behind at the end of the day. So literally at work, it's kind of from start to finish, we're using ritual to help us get ready for work, which is different than lying in bed. We need to do something to get ready to type and talk to people and be a human. Then our teams are very maddening and frustrating. So we often, you see teams reporting, they have little rituals that they do. Again, not like people in robes chanting, but little thing idiosyncratic things that groups do. We do that through the day, and then at the end of the day, we got to leave work behind and go back to normal self. And we use rituals there to try to leave work behind. So it's. It's like we started out looking at rituals at work, the team kind of rituals. And then you realize, well, wait, we also use them to start work. And then you realize, oh, wait, we also use them to end work at the end of the day. And that's what keeps happening in the research is it's like, let's look at this domain. And we say, oh, also there also. They're also there. And we can really start to see them popping up everywhere. It's the kind of thing where you start to feel like you're going insane, to be honest, because everything starts to look like a ritual to you. So I have to kind of keep it under wraps. But sometimes I think I'm. I'm accurate in saying, wow, these really are happening.

Yeah, well, and I really liked the section where you're talking about COVID And for people, as they figured out what was like, they needed the ritual as going to the new office and a couple of the. So that was the person who would cycle to work and then felt like something was off and realized. And I thought it was going to say, you know, so it's like I did a ride around the block and then came back. Like, I came to work, but it was like I rode my bike from my room to my living room to get. So, you know, just the little bit of it didn't need a whole whole deal. And someone else, you know, is like, walk around, like, said goodbye to my housemates, you know, kids, basically, and, like, walked around the room three times and, like, sat in my little corner. And they're still there, but it was like, see you after work. I'm on my way and it's so silly that you. When, you know, on the surface, when we say that we would need that, but those points of comfort that come, I would say, from that to mark a transition, I was just reminded of when Troy Campbell was on the show and he was talking about from when he worked at Disney. And you have the Portal, like if you go on a ride at Disneyland and that you're going from A to B, and there's this transitional process, like getting onto the ride, getting off of the ride, as you think through that, grouping it in as an experience and how we think and feel in this space. And so seeing how rituals were created, going, having to transition to be working from home, like riding the bike across your house and then also coming back, you know, where someone was saying they started to wear, they bought a second pair of slippers that they could wear at work because they now had this as part of what work was from being at home. And again, pre pandemic, that might have been really weird. And a bunch of people would say, absolutely not. You cannot wear slippers at your desk. And then everybody just says, I get it. Like, I see that. That's okay. Right? And so it's interesting to see how these things can adjust and transition as we all went through a collective thing. Kind of like you're saying in the morning during the Civil War, and just like, we need to adopt something new. And like, we lived through that. So I get why this would be this way. And, you know, we don't go back. It's like, this is. You can't unring the bell, I guess.

Yeah, I love the slippers example, too, because even though it's slippers at home and slippers at work, you're still using slippers to have a line between work and home. Because you literally have your home slippers and your work slippers.

Right.

So even there, it's like Mr. Rogers, like taking off his shoes and putting on his other shoes to get ready. Even if we're keeping the footwear the same slippers, we still think, maybe I'll use these ones over there and these ones over there to demarcate again, that work is different from home.

That's so interesting that you say Mr. Rogers, because if I. I don't believe you mentioned Mr. Rogers in the book. I don't think so. I might have missed it if it was there or I forgot. But that is such a good point in teaching us as children a little bit about ritual. Like you say of the, like, I'm here now putting on the sweater, tying and untying the shoes. And like, he always had a lesson, you know, it's like we're thinking about the day and, like, transitioning into our time together and, like, out of the time together in a way that is such, I think, an interesting lesson when we think about our kids. And you have really great examples of how you can use ritual with family. I really liked some of the thought. And whether it's, you know, significant other or it's with your kids or it has to do with holidays and looking at rituals and ways you can have, you know, our dinner together being a ritual that people look back on and remember that we always did that. So, like, when you say, if we think about it from the sake of the morning perspective and in a way that if we want to be remembered and have a tradition live on, right. This nostalgia of who we were and what it was like in our family and like, the thing that our children's. Children's children will do because it's so meaningful. There was the. The recipe for the. That became empanadas. I forget what it started at. Right. But like, a thing that passes on through the family. I think everybody would love to have something that they create that is something that's, like, uniquely them and that their family gets and loves and has those bonding moments that are kind of stolen moments throughout the day, the week that go along. What tips do you have for helping people to create that sort of ritual, nostalgic tradition that comes within their greater family unit?

I think it's funny because. Because our families and our. And our children and our. And our spouses are, you know, the source. The source of our greatest joy, but also they're the source of our greatest problems in life. So the kind of. If you want to have the good part, you have to have some of the stresses. And we do, again, use rituals in all those domains as well. So with family, rituals kind of do two things for us. One is they're a reminder to gather, which we sort of take for granted, actually. But it's a huge, hugely important part of what a family is. Because if your family never, ever gathers, ever, technically you're still a family. But how would we define family then? Maybe we're related to each other. So these rituals. And people always complain about having to travel for Thanksgiving, of course. And I totally get it. It's hard. But for some people, that's the only time all year they see their whole family together and the only time they see their extended family. So I had this realization of my Uncle Bob and Aunt Joan. I don't know if I ever saw them except on rituals meaning weddings and funerals and Christmas and Thanksgiving and the times when families gather. And I might not have even known them unless the rituals prompted us to get together. Maybe we would have figured it out on our own. But they allow us or force us in some ways to be a family and get together. And then, as you said, that's kind of like the. Feels like a push to get together. But we also use these funny rituals that we come up with to show how unique we are as a family, to show how much we love each other, how much we loved our grandparents, to bring forward history through this way. And, you know, you do. If you think about. If you're, let's say, Thanksgiving, and you could reflect on your grandmother, you could take a moment and think about it, but it's very, very different if instead what you did is you made the pie that she made and everyone eats it. It's just a very, very different way of thinking about the connection with somebody else. It's not that rituals are the only way to do it, but when we bring these things forward, they really give us a tangible way to remember the person and connect ourselves with them and tell our grandchildren who never met our grandmother that there's that connection as well, because this is the same pie that I made with her when I was your age. Again, you can do it in other ways, but rituals give us these really lovely, kind of simple ways to bring forward all of this emotion through our families. And I say that because it can be very small. You know, family ritual is not like everybody stands and claps for seven hours kind of thing. They're these little, tiny, meaningful actions, but they really become important.

Yeah, I loved, through the book we were talking about kind of that shorthand that comes up between, you know, a best friend, sibling, significant others, or someone at work, right? To where, you know, someone says something and you can just sort of like, look. Someone makes the look, and you know exactly what it means. And there's a whole era of time and, you know, conversations in that single moment that someone else would totally miss. But, like, when you're part of it, you get it. And the little things that we're saying, the thing that you and your significant other say, or that you always order cherry sauce on the. Whatever. Because the first. Or there was a thing about ladybugs, right? And so when you see a ladybug, you send a ladybug for this one couple, which means nothing to Anyone else. But it's their. It's their thing and how that comes together. And I think bringing it back to some of the business aspect reminds me of the. In playing the game or the test that you were doing where there were the different cards and people were put on a team and they have to explain and get the other person to guess what's on the card and how they developed a shorthand and what happened in a merger. Can you tell about this research?

Sure. This is research by Roberto Weber and Colin Cameror, and they wanted to study cultural conflict, which is a very large topic that in many, many ways they developed this really ingenious game that somehow recreates some of the dynamics. So, as you said, we'd be looking at a picture of something together. It could be of anything. And I would have to describe it to you really quickly so you knew what it was. So I might be like, there's a guy that has red, ha. And there's a bicycle, and there's a something and a something, and then we do it round after round. So by the fifth round, I just say red and, you know, it's the red hair guy. So we have this thing going between us, right. And it's great. And then they show we get faster and faster at the game. It's really going really well. But then they do the cultural conflict thing, which is they. Another team has been doing the same thing with the same pictures, but they settled on bicycle as the description of that picture, not red. So then we all get together and we switch partners, and I'm like shouting at you, bicycle, bicycle, bicycle. And you're getting mad because you have no idea what I'm talking about. And the other theme is happening as well. And it's very hard for us to go back. We develop this rapport between us with the shorthand, and it's really, really hard to unwind it and go back to, in this picture, there's a person with red hair and there's a bicycle. So you see these real benefits of creating these cultures, which is things go so smoothly between us and it's fun. And then you see sometimes these downsides where you conflict with these practices that another group has come up with. And how are we going to sort out? Are they just idiots or are we the idiots? What are we going to do to try to figure this out so we, again, we can communicate in an effective way?

Yeah. So what would be, you know, if. If someone is listening to this and realizing, oh, my gosh, this is the problem. I'm having in my team at work, right? This is the situation I'm dealing with right now. What advice do you have for them? Like you said, where it is hard to go back, especially if you don't realize kind of what the problem is, you know, what's their best next step to help overcome this problem?

One thing I would say as a general rule is so sometimes when I say team rituals at work can be helpful, the first thing people think about are kind of like forced corporate retreats where you have to do these terrible team building activities together and nobody wants to do them, but you know, the manager said that you had to do them. So a visceral reaction to the idea of team rituals being helpful is, no, no, no, I've done that and they are terrible. And the reason I raised that is because when a manager forces people to do things, it's often not going to go over very well. So the idea of teams coming up with their own rituals based on things that maybe their shared language, like red or bicycle, them surfacing, what the group is going to do seems to be much more emotionally resonant than when a manager says you have to do this. So honestly, the first thing to do, I wish I could say in all the research, I always wish that we could say things like, well, it's three claps and then two stomps. And that's the one. I would be amazing if I discover that. I would have a cult if I discovered things like that. And that's not how it works. It's often very specific to the group. So three stomps might be great for your group, but not wouldn't work well for our group because stomps mean something different. So it really is kind of asking the group what are the things that we do in common? Some places to start are literally how do we start meetings? You will see. So when you start in a new company and you go into a meeting at the new company for the first time, it often feels kind of surreal. It's a meeting, but it's the sort of dynamics happening that you're not really sure what's going on. And then over time you learn the dynamics. But if you unpack how the meeting is actually started, that can be one spot to say, hey, why don't we just do this a little bit? Not formally like corporate retreat formal, but let's just make sure at the beginning of every meeting we do this. Some teams do, for example, a check in at the beginning of every meeting just super quickly around the table. How are you doing? And you get used to it. You know it's going to happen the next day. You know that you can share. You know you're going to know how other people are feeling. If you don't do it every day, it doesn't work in the same way. But if you make it a habitual practice, it starts to have meaning and it starts to be a bigger deal. I will say the last thing is there's a. There's a thing that happens where if managers mandate a ritual, it makes the employees really mad, but it makes them all mad in unison at the manager, which means it bonds them together anyways.

Yeah.

So there's funny accidental bonding that happens from a manager being a jerk where the employees at least get by. I'm not recommending that because nobody wants to be hated. But you see it sometimes in practice.

Yeah, there's an episode of Ted Lasso where Ted, the team's not playing very well and they're kind of rallying against. And so he becomes led Tasso, which is the complete opposite of Ted, to make them all hate him or whatever. You know, it's the same kind of vibe there for sure. Which like you said, long term strategy, not. Not good if that manager is going to be hanging around.

Parents do the same thing with kids are fighting and they say, well, he started and she started. And parents just say, I don't care, you're both grounded. And immediately the kids are bonded together against the parent because the parent.

For sure. Well, you didn't use the term specifically in the book, but when you were talking about trust falls and things. I have an episode on vulnerability loops that I'm going to be linking to in the show notes for everyone in that way. Especially, you know, if. Since we don't want to be the manager that people then hate. You know, there is a bit of though if you can expose and feel a little uncomfortable in a way that makes it so people want to, you know, catch you as you take that leap of faith. Can help to create some sort of thing that then you bond over that maybe then could tie in for some sort of ritual effect.

I love that idea. We. We do see sometimes. So if I'm teaching, for example, if I ask a group of people, do any of you do anything before a test or a big meeting or a game and there's kind of an awkward silence and then finally one person will be like, well, I kind of do this thing with my shoelaces where, you know, I have to make sure that this. And then Other people chime in, well, I do the same thing. And there is this sense of if one person is vulnerable enough to share what they think is kind of a very weird thing that they do about themselves, it does liberate other people to chime in and say, oh, I do that too. And suddenly you realize everybody's doing these things. And that in and of itself is a bonding situation where we're all acknowledging that we're a little bit unusual when we get money for stuff.

Well. And that you. Someone says something and they think, oh, I can't even believe I'm saying this, but Right. And then someone goes, oh my gosh, me too. But I don't. Like you said, it's not with my shoelaces, it's with my, this necklace that I always wear. I have to have the bracelet because this is my test taking bracelet or. And it has to go on before I put on my watch because. Right. There's a whole thing in the way that you do it. And I think that that is important to know. While on the one side to say we may feel like it's weird to have the things and we should try to get rid of those idiosyncrasies, let's say that like, you shouldn't need that before the test or the meeting or whatever.

And of course it can get to an extreme.

Yes. However, there is something in like calming yourself down or going through the steps. I know you had though, like one student that said that she would always do it wrong in case she did bad on the test. It wasn't her, it was the ritual. Right. But we can embrace if it is the idea of I do this, I do that, and it's that portal, that kind of mental transformation to be in work mode, to be in speech giving mode, and then how you can be more thoughtful. So every episode of the brainy business here, we end with be thoughtful. And so being thoughtful about if you do a lot of presentations or if you want to be better at presentations to say, I'm going to transition into presentation mode. And I do this to get into it and I do this to get out of it. And this is why I do that. And it's step one, two, three, that can really, I think, help people to take on a different almost like identity. Right. To like, I'm stepping out of who I am to be the presentation me. And even if I've always said I'm really bad at giving presentations, I'm not a good public speaker. It's not you, it's your. Your channeling presentation. You. Right. And then you can make it happen.

I used to, when I taught, I would wear a suit and tie when I taught, when I. Before I had tenure, because I wanted to look like I was a professional person. And then after I got tenure, I started dressing like a slob, which is often the case, except when I teach, I still dress up in a suit and tie. And it's exactly as you said. It's kind of. I put it on, and then I be. I'm a professor for a while, which is a very specific thing. And then when I'm done, I take the suit off and put on my slob clothes again. And now I'm back to who I am. Be like, I don't know if that's my core, but who I see myself as. And I think on the one hand, it's like, what an insane thing to do. Why do you need to change clothing? On the other hand, they seem to really resonate with people when we engage in these things. And I think, as you said, another important thing is, like, don't really feel that bad about it. Sure, it's a weird thing that you're doing, but someone else in the next stall is talking to themselves about the presentation as well and psych themselves up. Also, it's. They're so common that you shouldn't feel like there's something weird about you. It's just. There's actually something quirky about humans.

Right? Yeah. It's what makes us innately us. Right. Well, I would be remiss if we.

Didn'T at least have an opportunity for.

You to talk a little bit about the IKEA effect. I will be linking to that episode in the show notes as well. Can you share about that research and how it ties in with rituals?

Yeah. The IKEA effect research was a few years before I started studying rituals. And like most things, I didn't think they were related until later. But the idea of the IKEA effects, very, very simple. It's just if you ask people, do you have something that you made at some point in your life, and you keep it, like a watercolor or a mug or a coat rack or something like this, Many people say, yeah, I do have this thing that I made. Or they say, you know what? My spouse has this thing that they made, and it's hideously ugly. Mine's pretty good, but theirs is hideously ugly. But of course, if you ask their spouse or partner, they say, mine's pretty good. Theirs is really ugly. So there was just this idea that when we make things ourselves, they get imbued with something that's just different than if the thing comes already made, that there's something about it. And we started thinking about it as literally investing your effort and investing yourself in the product. And we do, of course, because we like to be amusing, we do silly studies where we have grownups put together LEGO sets and things like that. But we can see, you know, if I showed you a little LEGO set that I put together and I asked you if you'd pay for it, you'd be like, I don't, I'm an adult, I don't really need Legos right now. So. No, but if you put the. I love that.

For anyone who's not watching the video of this of my, the shelf behind me is full of LEGO that I have put together. So. All right. Oh, nice.

Circle of trust. Yeah, I got it. Many grownups are not comfortable with, with Legos, but the thing is we get grown ups to put Legos together themselves. And then I say, you know, I can either take that and put it back in the box or you can pay me for it. People get a little protective and they think, no, no, I, this is my little LEGO thing that I made. And they will in fact pay more for not $1,000, obviously we're talking about 25 cents or something like that. But just that little difference shows when we make something ourselves, it just has more meaning to us than if it just comes pre made. And that actually then eventually became linked to rituals, which is that some rituals come to us ready made from our culture or from our religion. And those can be incredibly important and emotional and impactful. I don't mean to dismiss them in any way, but we also do this thing where we make them ourselves, we craft them ourselves. Our little idiosyncratic things that we do or our family does or I do with my partner that maybe nobody else does. And I think again, it imbues them with a different kind of meaning when it comes from us as opposed to comes from outside, even though both types of rituals we use for lots of different things in life.

Yeah, I love that.

And is there a reason why it became the IKEA effect and not then the LEGO effect or the Bionicle effect.

Or is it actually a poorly chosen name because people tend to really dislike their IKEA furniture? So they say, well, I don't think it's, it's real. But the question is your lopsided bookcase that you put together yourself from Ikea, do you like it more than the same lopsided bookcase that somebody else put together there. Again, it's like they're both lopsided, but mine has some magical essence. I prefer mine over the other one. So it was an idea of even with things that are boring and mundane, even there. It's not just creating beautiful works of art that we come to love our creations. It's making even really boring things or little things that already we start to imbue it with something more.

Right. It'd be the, like, the paint by number, the like all these little things that you do. Right. Where the intention is that it looks just like all the other things. The same. The Lego is designed to be the same whether I made it or you made it or anyone else. And so. But it does, you know, this is my Lego orchid. It's not.

Not yours. Right.

So, yes, definitely get that for sure.

Any last things that you would like.

To share about rituals? The book?

Something I should have asked before we close out the show.

I think the only thing I would say is I think of rituals in two or our little idiosyncratic ones in two ways. One is kind of to notice what you're already doing. So if you think about just observing your morning routine or observing what you do when you leave work or observing your teams at work, often people uncover things that are already happening and then you can kind of own them a little bit more. Like, oh, this is our thing. This is my thing. This is what I do with my spouse at dinner. And then the other one is people do think about adding them in places. You know, you can think about freelancing a little bit and seeing at the next Thanksgiving, keeping the tradition, but maybe also trying out a new tradition as well. It's not a guarantee it's going to work, but they are. Rituals are these tools. They're already existing in our lives if we look around and we can use them in ways that we haven't thought of before.

Love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show today, Mike. It was so fun to chat with you about all things rituals and IKEA effect and all the good stuff for everyone who is so excited to get their copy of the Ritual Effect, which came out this week. What is their best choice to do that and to get in contact with you? Learn more things like that.

LinkedIn is the best way to get in contact with me. And then the book is going to be released on April 9, so at that point you can buy it everywhere. Quality book sellers exist.

Love it. Well, thank you again for joining me on the show. It was a delight to chat with you today.

Thank you so much.

Thank you again to Dr. Michael Norton for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation for me, with a mantra of be thoughtful for myself and the brainy.

Business, it probably isn't surprising to learn.

That I love the idea of slowing down and incorporating thoughtfulness into the things you do throughout the day. Not everything will become a ritual, of course, but you if you have a few key moments of ritual throughout your days, I see nothing but upside. It can help you be more present in your daily life, feel more gratitude and appreciation for those around you and what you have. Have a better connection with yourself, your family, your friends and your work. Allow you to shut down after a long day and disconnect from work and so much more. All this really is possible when you understand rituals and find some ways to incorporate them into your life. Yes, big moments like holidays are a great time for rituals. But what about Tuesday night dinner, Sunday morning walks? Or a moment to sit and savor that cup of coffee on the porch with someone important to you? It can all be a ritual if you want, and I can't wait to hear about yours. What rituals do you already have in your life? Maybe some quirky ones like we talked.

About on this show.

Where will you incorporate a new one? What are you trying? Why come share it with us on social media. He is Michael I. Norton on Twitter.

Link in the show notes and I'm the Brainy biz pretty much everywhere and.

Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. We can't wait to hear from you. Speaking of the show notes, which include links to my top related past episodes, articles and books including the Ritual Effect, they're found within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com383.

And.

Thank you again to Dr. Michael Norton for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you.

Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode.

Of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit the Brainy business dot com.