391. The Art of Apology with Marjorie Ingall and Susan McCarthy

Welcome to episode 391 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Marjorie engel and Susan McCarthy, co authors of Getting to Sorry. Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I am joined by Marjorie Engel and Susan McCarthy. Marjorie is a former columnist for Tablet magazine and the Forward. She is a frequent contributor to the New York Times Book Review and has also written for New York Magazine, Town and Country Magazine, Ms. Glamour, Self, Elle, and Sassy. Susan has written for Parade, the Guardian, Wired, Smithsonian Magazine, Outside, and Salon. Her work has been anthologized in the Best American Science Writing and in Mirth of a Nation, the Best Contemporary Humor.

They have both written multiple books separate.

From each other, sometimes with other co authors and together they created sorrywatch.com which has now turned into the fantastic book Getting to Sorry, the Art of Apology at Work and at Home. And of course that's what we're going to be talking about today.

I loved this book.

It was so fun to read while teaching valuable lessons and insights about apologies. How to say sorry, when to say sorry, when not to say sorry, how to do it well, how to take apologies well. So much great stuff in there.

I absolutely recommend you check it out.

Once you've finished the episode. And there is of course a link in the show notes to make it easy. And so you know those notes are found within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 391 now let's jump right in. Marjorie, Susan, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for having us.

Yes, I'm so excited for you to be here. As I said, I have so enjoyed your book. I laughed more than most anything I feel like I've done recently. Lots of screenshots to text to my husband so he could laugh along with the the silly things people say in apologies. And before we jump into all of it, I would love if for everyone who doesn't yet know you, if you can each share a little bit about yourself, the work that you do, you know, I guess how we, how we got here.

I'll go first. So I'm Marjorie Engel and I have been, you know, I've written about. I've been journalist, have written about social science and health for many, many years. But my interest in apology comes probably from being a Jew and also writing for Jewish publications. Every year we think about apologies at the high holidays. And I also gave birth to a toddler who. I mean, everybody's babies and children are feral, but mine was super feral and spent pretty of pre k in the consequences chair. So I had to think about, like, how we teach people to apologize when we bite and how to, you know, make apologies and seeing what prompts apologies as part of what makes us human and kind and people who deserve to live in the world. And Susan and I are longtime friends.

I will say as a my. My now two and a half year old. So he turned two and a half. It's been two, about two and a half weeks, actually. And he just full on decided, like, terrible twos. I'm here. I'm here for it. Right. And he's like, he's been having many a timeout recently. Like you said, consequences chair, whatever. And he is so. Was well timed.

Yeah. Sorry about. Welcome to the jungle there.

I know he'll get through it. I'm confident. I have to believe that there's a light on the other side.

The biter is graduating from Yale this year, so I think.

Yes. Okay. We're feeling good. Yeah. So, Susan, love to hear from you, too.

I'm Susan McCarthy and I have traditionally written about wildlife and animal behavior, and believe me, there is a connection with apology. In addition to writing about animals, I've written humor. And that's kind of how I got into this. I wrote a humor piece making fun of bad apologies. And the response I got to it made me realize what an important subject this is, how much people care about it, and how often it's done badly. And so I knew that Marjorie had a strong interest in this, and this was a chance for us to work together and both go down deep rabbit holes of research.

Yeah. So a decade ago, we started sorrywatch.com together. And then a decade ago, we were mostly being just funny about bad apologies. And the longer we did it, the more serious we got about it and the more we tapped into our science writing backgrounds and were more interested in good and bad research on apology. And when we wrote the book Getting to Sorry, we wanted to go deep into and in a humane way into why good apologies are so difficult. Um, which wasn't the original point behind sorrywatch.com, which was mostly like, oh, my God, Lance Armstrong, you are the worst apologizer ever.

I was gonna ask, like, what. What was the one that started it all? And I. I would love to hear. So we will definitely, of course, get into the components of a good apology where we can talk about forgiveness, whether we have to forgive and. Or accept apologies, whether you actually need to apologize. It's coming, everyone. And I always love to ask people, as we think about, like, how you built your business sort of around this, and there are a lot of small business owners and things listening, and I know you do lots of different things, but, you know, the idea of building a website that then has so many people and people finding you and sending stuff and engaging with you that then turns into a book. I know there are people listening that love the idea of this, and I know there's a lot of, you know, luck and serendipity that comes into these things, but what thoughts and advice do you have of that? Like building out something that gets people excited and engaged and interacting with users in that way.

I love that you asked this. Nobody has ever asked us about building this as a business, and it's so awesome.

I love it.

Yeah. Thank you for. So, thank you for, you know, making us both perk up with a question we have not heard before in doing this.

Always my goal. Yeah.

So I would say it's been amusing. I would say don't start anything with the goal of publishing a book or I. I think. I mean, this is obvious, but you have to start with a subject that you are truly passionate about and that you would be happy exploring even if nobody looked at it, which is a pain in the butt to think about, because we're all thinking about. You know, we live in a heavily freelance economy and an economy where everything is encouraged to be monetized for both of us. I used to live in San Francisco, where Susan lives. We were friends. I moved to New York. It seemed like we both had so much respect for one another as writers. This seemed like a really nice opportunity for us to work together, even if nobody ever looked at it. And I think the you. Because times change so fast and mediums change so fast, you have to be ready to pivot all the time. Like, people were constantly telling us for a while that we needed, you know, for a while, you're supposed to have a Facebook business page and a Facebook regular people page, and now it turns an author page. I'm sorry. And now that's. That's not true anymore. Oh, you have to be on TikTok. No, you don't have to be on TikTok because you have to be on Substack. Substack is run by Nazis. You know, like, there's. The rules are constantly changing. So you. It's stupid to say this, but you really better like what you're doing and hope that, you know, you can figure out how to bring the audiences to you. And Susan, go for it.

Well, you'll notice that Sorry Watch is not ad supported, which may make it more attractive for people to come to. Although people are getting so numb to being barraged with ads. I don't know if that's true. One thing that SorryWatch really did for us was we turned out to be a great resource for journalists all across the country and even around the world. And they will call us and they will say this, you know, here in our state, here in our small country, this apology is all that anybody is talking about. You're on apology experts. What do you think? And so, in fact, when we did sell the book, we were able to say, we've been quoted in the New York Times, we've been quoted in the Seattle Times, this Italian paper, this Dutch paper. So we became a resource almost by accident. That wasn't something we set out to do, and that has proved to be a great credential for us. Plus, we got to learn about some amazing apologies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would also say don't be afraid to pivot. Just because you were doing a thing one way doesn't mean that you can't start doing it another way. You know, we were talking about sometimes people who are being disingenuous about our work will think that we exist only to make fun of people. And we should probably actually go back and change some of the wording on the homepage of Sorry Watch. But people who have agendas about thinking that apologies are weak or that nobody is ever going to forgive you, so why bother to apologize? Will misquote our stuff. But they're also, to be fair, we gave them that opening because in the beginning, we did mostly make fun of apologies, and that's so not what we do now. And I think it. I am glad that it's not what we do anymore. We sometimes make fun of terrible apologies when somebody's really, really asking for it. But we also want to talk more seriously about, you know, psychologically, why apologizing well is hard and why people deserve the chance to learn.

And why, if you mess up and apologize badly, it is perfectly possible and not that rare to go back and do better.

Yes. I love that there was an example in the book. Not to jump way into something that's deep in the book, but it just reminded me of. It was the husband and wife, and it was like they'd been married for 40 years or something. And then it was. He had made a mistake and then had apologized a bunch of times. She had hadn't accepted it. I know that you all will explain it better, but the. And then at this one moment, gave the Apollo a good. An actual, like, learned enough to give a really solid apology. And then it actually.

And it happened.

It worked. And she, you know, forgave. I think that was in that chapter on forgiveness.

Yeah, he fixed it.

Right.

After all those years.

Right.

Susan, that was that. You brought that one to the table. Do you remember exactly what the wording was? That was what she needed to hear.

We weren't given the. It comes from work by Claude Steiner. And he doesn't give us the entire exact wording, but what he said. And this was in a workshop on emotional literacy, if you can believe that. What he said is, I've apologized to you, Rose, so many times. And by the way, well, let's just say he cheated on her the night after their child was born. Not a good thing. He said, I've apologized to you so many times, but I never realized how much you were hurt. How much I hurt you. And I want to apologize for that. He had never apologized for how much he hurt her. He'd apologized for what he did. And, like, I will never do it again. It's been years. I've never done it again. Lay off. But he hadn't really turned around and acknowledged the impact of. On her, of what happened. And when he did that and apologized very sincerely and passionately for that, that was what she needed. That was what she needed. And, you know, a year later, he ran into the guy who ran the workshop and he said, she's never brought it up again.

Yeah, Yeah. I think too, in that I remember from reading, it was like, got, like, down on, like, knees, was holding her hand, looking her in the eyes, like, had this moment. I see someone feeling, seen, understood. Like, that's such a big impact. And making it to where it's not just about you and all your. Your stuff. So I do feel like this is a great opportunity to get into some of the makings of both good and bad apologies. And maybe starting with. I think it's a little obvious since we're talking about it, but maybe not, like, is it important to apologize? Should we apologize for things. Do we have to feel like we're apologizing all the time? Is it weak to apologize? All that good stuff.

I feel bad for the people who aren't watching video on this. Because your eyes, like, rolled back in your head.

Yes, I have very. I have a very expressive face. This is you.

Do you. Do we. Obviously, from the fact that I commented on your eyes rolling back in your head when you asked whether apologies are weak, I'm going to say that we absolutely agree with the face that you just made that apologies are not weak. That apologies are, in fact, a sign of great strength because we are overcoming our animal self. That our own belief that we are always the hero of our own story, our own faith, that, you know, whenever there is, you know, whenever we're faced with cognitive dissonance, that we see, oh, I'm a good person, but I hurt someone else, and I was a villain in their story, and clearly I'm a good person, but I did a bad thing. When we are willing to resolve that thing not in our own favor and not make excuses, and when we actually are vulnerable enough to say, hey, I know I hurt you. I did something wrong. I'm sorry. That is a huge act of bravery, not an act of cowardice. Sorry. You hit me somewhere. Where? Somewhere where I live. There.

I love it. I totally agree with it.

Yep.

And people who see that apology are not going to think that the person who apologized was weak and apparently they made a mistake. They're going to think, wow, he or she stepped up. That is strength.

Right. I think also we should differentiate between public and private apologies, that a lot of times the people who are saying apologies are weak or the people sort of, you know, playing along at home are people with their own agendas and people who are not looking at apologies either as a blank slate. Let's just see what's actually happening here. But somebody with their own, you know, targeted reason to say, oh, cancel culture, or, oh, apologies don't work. Apologies are, you know, they show that you're embarrassed for America, which is often a thing that people say about political apologies. So just remember that everybody who is viewing and commenting on a public apology is probably coming to it from a specific place with specific politics and specific baggage and reasons for the sideline reporting that they are doing. So we're actually really interested in private apologies between regular human beings in a workplace, in a home, in a school, and how they make those environments safer, kinder, more functional.

Right. And I know that there's some. So if we think about this in a, in a workplace and we will get to the structure of good apologies, of course. But like, so if something happened in the, like as a rule, or there's some like, rules of thumb of whether it should be a public or a private apology, I would think, and I, from what I read in the book, you know, first thing comes to mind here is like, if something happened in private, only one person knows about it. And this is also some of the lessons, I think from the. With kids, right? Like, why are you making them apologize in front of like parade them out to go apologize in front of their siblings to teach everyone a lesson or something? Like, ugh, like, let's, let's not do that, right? If it happened though, and everybody else saw or you did something and the team is aware, it impacts them, maybe making the public apology might make sense. But if it was kind of more in that one on one, we don't need to bring more people in and make it a big thing that then everybody's gonna be like, why did this, this is weird. Why'd that happen? Or I don't want to get called in front of the class, you know, to have to have this apology this way. What, what other thoughts do you have about that? Like workplace wise and you know, just in general for private and public apologies?

Well, consider the example of someone who gives a presentation at a meeting at workplace and someone else has done research for them and laid out stuff that they can say and they do not acknowledge that person. In that case, they definitely owe a private apology to the person whose work they used without credit. They also probably in the next meeting should say, I just wanted to say at the last meeting, I failed to credit Jordan for all the work they did. I'm sorry about that, Jordan. And people are not going to think worse of you if you make that apology in the second meeting. If you don't make that apology, if you think, well, who cares? Maybe I'll apologize to Jordan in private. Believe me, everyone's going to know. People will find out. And so then they'll be looking at you and they go, hmm, there's that person who takes other people's work and doesn't credit it, which makes you look weaker. Right.

A good rule of thumb is if the offense was public, then the apology should also be public. If it was private, then the apology should be private. You can also consider how the recipient would respond to, you know, if you make something public, the recipient might appreciate it or they might not. And I'm thinking about how you Know, with politicians in particular, it's so easy to be called out when thinking about when Chris Christie closed that bridge in New Jersey and said, oh, I've called the mayor privately to apologize. And the mayor could immediately be like, no, he didn't. So just be aware all the time that you do need to do if you've done something publicly to shame someone, apologize publicly but also apologize privately. Right.

I love that example too, Susan, of the acknowledging that. So while that was a public thing and you could have just said in the next meeting, oh, you know, Jordan did this and I should have said something, but you still should do the private conversation to acknowledge that person so that they know that you care about them and that you didn't mean to do the thing. And it's also a, it's very different if you start and say, I, I cannot believe that this, you know, I, I, I, I started to think about where it's, you know, in the like Grammy or Oscar thank you speeches and someone forgot to thank their wife or they forgot to thank their manager or whatever it is, you know, and it's like the really obvious person and you know, it's one thing to if, if they then come to you and say, what Right. And then you say, oh, I'm so sorry in the moment, blah, blah, blah, is different than realizing like where you're walking off the scene. I was walking off the stage and I realized I forgot to thank you. I'm so sorry. Right. That this, I was, of course I was thinking of you and you're always central to me and I, you know, whatever. Right. You have a reason for it. But for that person, if you can bring it up first, it's always, always being general terms here, but like most likely going to help smooth things over better than if you think if they bring it up, I'll be ready to apologize, but they probably didn't even notice to where we'd say in general, like you said, like they noticed and they'll tell, they'll talk to someone else. Someone else also noticed. And there will be conversation whether you hear it or not and whether or.

Not they noticed, you know, even if for some reason they didn't, they will be delighted to get that apology from you. Nobody is ever bummed to get a heartfelt apology.

Yeah, right.

Right.

Yes. I, I love that there was an example from early in the book of someone who had been bullied in high school and the okay, I feel like you at least remember, I knew you would remember. But like, details enough, it's Such a potent story.

Anyone who ever hears it remembers it. Susan, do you want to tell it?

Yeah. This guy was a designer in Hollywood, and he gets email, I believe, on Facebook from someone that says, I don't know if you remember me. We went to high school together, you know, in a small Alaska town. And my daughter. I now have a daughter, and she's doing a unit on bullying at school. And we were talking about it, and she asked me if I had ever been bullied, and I said I didn't think so. And she asked me if I've ever bullied anyone. And I suddenly remembered the way we treated you and that I had to tell her. Yes. And I'm looking back, I feel so bad about it. I am so sorry. You did not deserve that, and I just wanted to reach out and apologize to you. And the guy who was apologized to, Chad Michael Morissette, was just stunned. He didn't remember this particular guy because he had been bullied by so many people at this small school, he had to have adults walk him down the hall. The entire football team was bullying him. You know, he was a small, meek guy, and he was just the appointed. Let's get him. But he wrote back after a day or two, and he said, thank you. No one else ever apologized to me for that. And it means so much that you remember this and you apologize for it, and please tell your daughter how grateful I am that you did that. And then the guy, the ex bully, wrote back, and he said, thank you. You're accepting. This apology means so much to me. And it went viral for a while. Everybody was just amazed by this story because so many of us have been bullied or shunned in school years and almost never do we get apologies for that.

I think that's a lesson to take away from. That also is the people who talk about how, oh, don't apologize because people won't accept it, and you, you could go viral for a bad apology. People forget that people go viral for good apologies and their businesses can really benefit. And it is a joy that has reverberations in the world. Right. Because people love stories of good apologies and forgiveness.

Right?

It's the end.

Redemption, right?

Yeah.

Yes, redemption. When we think about that ex bully, we don't think, oh, he was bad in middle school. He bullied people. We think, wow, that's impressive. He realized. He looked back and realized what he had done and tried his best to.

Make it right and that, like, owned up to it in the moment with his child, admitted to it. Took the action. Like, following all the way through on that is, like we said, it's definitely like, I think we can all see, like, I admire that person. And I think we have the moment to say, like, would I have been thoughtful enough in the moment when my child asked, would I be willing to admit to something I might have done? Or would I feel ashamed, too ashamed to say something, you know, in that. In that moment? And I think it's a really inspiring thing to be able to see. And hopefully we can all get to see and experience more positive apologies when we know what makes a good apology. So can you please share the. I believe it's six pieces of a. Of a good apology. What is. We heard some of what that looks like. What are the steps? What do we need?

The first thing you must do is say the words, I'm sorry or I apologize, not I regret. Regret is about how you feel. Apologies are about making someone else feel better. It seems ridiculous, but you will look at, you know, headlines that say so and so apologizes, and then you'll look at the statement. You're like, I don't see the words I'm sorry or I apologize in there. So that's number one.

And number two is say what you're apologizing for. And this is surprisingly frequent. People will say, I'm sorry for what happened. I apologize for the way that turned out. You know, I'm sorry for Wednesday.

For Wednesday. Just that Wednesdays exist. I am sorry.

No one likes Hump Day.

It's a rough one.

But you have to name the thing. Names have power. Number three is to show that you understand why what you did was hurtful. We see so many bad public opinions. Apologies, where people talk about how they're ashamed. They're, this is not who I am. No, not about you. About. Show how you understand how you had an impact on the other person. Earlier in this podcast, we talked about, you know, the guy needing to say to his wife how, like, he had said, I'm sorry for cheating, but not, I'm sorry for how it made you feel. So, yeah, that's three.

Number four is don't make excuses. Don't say, I was having a bad day. I was really irritated that you even brought that up. If you need to, you can explain and you can say, oh, I thought that was my kid's tricycle. My kid has a tricycle. I wasn't trying to steal your kid's trike. It looked just like my kid's trike. But don't go into excuses. And be so you have to be careful when you.

Excuse me. Explain number five is make clear the steps you are taking to ensure that this will not happen again. That is a thing that is often missing in public apologies. When we hear politicians and celebrities say, you know, that they're, you know, super sorry about the bad thing. Hey, guys. They're super sorry about the bad thing. What are you doing to ensure that this will not happen again? What steps is the company taking? You know, what kinds of training are people going to get to make sure this doesn't happen again?

And six is making reparations, if that's appropriate. If you use someone else's work without credit to give them the credit and say, jordan did all this research and pulled this together, that's one form of making reparations. I would also say that these six steps ensure that you're making a good apology, but they're not necessary for every apology. There may be apologies where, you know, there's no way it would ever happen again. So you don't have to explain why you will never take their kid strike again.

Also, if it's going to be something again, the apology is always about the recipient. So if something. If you're going to luxuriate in an apology when somebody would rather just hear a quick I'm sorry, like, say if you misgendered somebody in the workplace, nobody wants you to go into this long speech about, you know, how awful you feel. Just, I'm sorry, I'm going to work on it. It won't happen again. Great. We also have a half step, which can be extremely difficult, which is let the other person have their say. If they want to vent to you, listen, don't respond, don't. But you let. Just listen. If you. If somebody wants to talk, definitely.

And. And then this is the perfect apology sequence and everyone will always accept it.

The end.

Right? It's. So we. We're good.

We're done here. Good night, everybody.

Yeah.

Thank you, Wisconsin.

While it would be nice to believe, you know, and say, like, if we put in all the work and we do the thing and we said the apology, we put it out there, they must. You must accept my apology. And I need you to tell me right now, in the moment that you accept it and you forgive me, maybe how we feel. And yet.

And yet.

And yet. Well, one thing is we don't have. We don't often get to see people accept apologies. We may not have a model for that. And if you do accept the apology, you can say, thank you I accept that apology. You can say, I think that wasn't easy for you. I appreciate your apology. You can say, thanks for apologizing. I need to sit with that for a while. And definitely, a person making an apology does not get to demand forgiveness. What do you say about that, Marjorie?

Apologies are mandatory. Forgiveness is not. Is that what we're discussing?

Forgiveness is optional.

Yes, forgiveness is optional.

So you may say, you know, I hope you will be able to forgive me, but don't say, do you forgive me? Is everything forgiven? Are we good?

Right?

I know. It just undoes everything. It's back about you again, right in that moment. Right.

It's making it transactional.

Asking for forgiveness is like asking for a gift. You know, when you go, it's tacky. You know, we all know that when you go to a wedding, you are supposed to give a wedding gift, but you don't get to say, you know, you don't. You know, that's why people write to Miss Manners saying, you know, people are, you know, this horrible thing where you're, like, supposed to go put the thing on the gift table and everybody's watching. You know, you. It is tacky and rude to ask for a gift. You can say, I hope you will forgive. I hope I can. You know, I hope with my behavior, you'll be able to forgive me. As I change my behavior, I hope one day you'll be able to forgive me. But you never put someone on the spot, which is unfortunate because there are cute signs in schools often about how to apologize. And I love the idea that that's a kind of social and emotional learning that people are encouraging in schools. But so many of the times, the signs end with, say, do you forgive me? And then we go, no.

Right?

And it's.

It's such an important point of, like, we want the kids to know that forgiveness is a thing and that there's this other step in there. But, yeah, just. Even the I hope you can forgive me.

Just a phrasing, right?

And then you don't have to respond. Whereas with a question. We talk about questions all the time here on the show.

Like, our.

We feel like we have to respond to a question in a different way where it's like, do you forgive me? Now, I can't just say, thank you for your apology. It feels very weird question. Whereas if you say, I hope you can forgive me, I can say, thank you. I'm gonna go sit with it and whatnot. Where you really, like you said, you put them on the spot and made it Just awkward. One of the things that I really appreciate in the. Throughout the book and thinking about apologies in this way is, you know, our brains were really wired to be thinking about us all the time. And the big thing about apologizing is having to get far enough away from the situation to separate the you and what you need and what you want and what will help you to feel better from what it is that they need. And, you know, you have examples of like, sometimes it's maybe you write the letter of the apology, but you don't deliver it because it's not going to help them. And your version of letting go of it is maybe just in the writing the letter. In some cases, you do need. Want them to know, but, like, what's the thing? Like, if I was them, if this had happened to me, how would I feel? This actually, this is really. I don't know how often you get to talk about perpetrators and victims and the way that the research, you know, comes in on how our minds, like, shift when we're put in different contexts. But I thought that section of the book was so fascinating that if you can think about yourself as if you were the. The victim of the thing that happened instead of associating with being the perpetrator of the thing and worried about yourself how much that changes the way you may be able to construct your apology and actually own the thing you did and how it made someone feel so that you really, truly won't do it again and that you're not just, you know, it's not just lip service.

Exactly.

Yeah. So with apologizing, we talked a little bit about forgiveness. Word choice to then matter. So let's say someone apologizes to you for the thing, whatever that thing is, and you aren't feeling ready, or you don't want to forgive them and. Or you get a bad apology. Like how. What do we do when we're the recipient of an apology, good or bad, and we want to respond? I also want to. Part of where I'm hoping to get here too, is we have the conditioned answer for responding to apologies, which can be like, oh, don't worry about it, no sweat. But if we consider the other person, maybe they should have worried about, we know they stressed about it. Right. I'll let you take it from there.

Well, the six steps that we talk about are also really useful to have in your pocket when you get a bad apology. And so if they say, I feel so bad about Wednesday, then you can say, are you apologizing to me? Because I would Be. I'd really like to hear. I'd really like to hear that. And if they say, what about Wednesday? You can say, what about Wednesday are you apologizing for. Because it might turn out that they're apologizing for being late and not for rushing in and turning over the table because they arrived drunk. So you can use those six steps to say, you know, did they say they're sorry? Did they say, what for? Did they understand how, you know, that messed up my whole family's event? You know, you can run down that stuff and you can ask them, you know, are you apologizing to me? For what? What are you apologizing for? I don't know if you understand how that impacted me and you can draw.

It out of them sometimes also, we don't understand why when we've gotten an apology, we don't feel better. And if you look at it through the lens of these six things, you'll be like, oh, because that was a really, really crappy apology. It's also, you know, because we are conditioned also to respond, as you said, with, oh, no, that's fine. Don't worry about. Can be good to have in your pocket. Thank you for that apology. I know that was hard. I need to sit with this for a while, or if you're able to say it in the moment. I appreciate you apologizing for X, but what I am upset about is Y. And I'd like you to think about that and maybe come back and think about whether you can apologize to me for that which, you know, especially for those of us who have been trained not to be confrontational, that can seem like a terrifying thing to do. But it can also be this really productive and helpful and exciting way to communicate in a way that, you know, you're not putting someone on the spot by that you're saying, you know, you go back and think, and I'll go back and think. And that can be a way to give both people a little breathing room to think about how and whether they are able to both apologize and forgive. And again, nobody, you know, if you've wronged someone, you do have to apologize. Some things are unforgivable, and for those, you don't have to forgive them.

Right.

And I, I think what's really important, and I. I love that the book goes into the both sides of this being like, you know, it's kind of a con contract of like, do you accept my terms? Like, no, I do not. Or what? You know, but we have to own. And if you Say yes. If you say yes, I accept your apology. You need to own that you accept the apology. And so we don't want to just say, you know, oh, thank you. Like, it's okay. Right. Oh, it's okay. But I'm gonna bring it up again next week, just so you know. Right, right, right. If you don't actually accept, don't say it's okay. Right. And so. And you need to know why you don't think it's okay and how. And be willing to find the. How we move forward or how we just be done.

Right.

That's if you're not willing to. To draw those sort of lines, like, am I willing to move forward with this person? Under what conditions are they willing to live up to it? We've now set those rules, and I really, truly will let go of the thing and move forward or I can never get over this. And I don't see you the same. It's just I. I appreciate that you put in the effort. Like, I'm not gonna go hate you and tell everybody what a terrible person you are, but we can't. I can't fully accept this. And, and thank you. But thank you for the effort you put in and maybe, you know, call me in 20 years.

Have a great.

Life, and we'll see if this has changed. But, yeah, don't.

That.

You don't have to say, okay. I think that the both sides of the apology matrix or whatever are actually really important. And it's not to just put it on the person that's going to be apologizing and say, well, but they didn't do this or they that or I'm going to just hold on to that. I'll just say yes, but is just not helping the world situation. 1. Don't hold on to that stuff. You talk a lot about the value of how people sleep better and all these things when we can forgive and move forward. But also I think remembering that, like, apologizing is hard. They're probably not trying to be a jerk for the most part when they're apologizing to you. And if you can help move the thing forward, there is value in that, really on. On both sides. I did say the but. Right. So the. You say you have to say I'm sorry. Those are. Those words need to be there. I apologize. And if that is followed up with I'm sorry, if I'm sorry, but I'm sorry, you Right, right.

I'm sorry. You always.

Right. It's so the. The cringy moments of the book, I think are so enjoyable to be able to read. Like, the good stuff is great and so heartfelt and you can feel the good apologies. I love that you break them down and then the, there are the things that we can be reading and seeing and you go, ugh, right? You just, it's the, the I'm sorry if. And you know, there's no way that that is going to come out and be okay. Like, we're not going to.

The, the. The origin story of the bad apology bingo cards that litter the book is that all of those phrases actually appeared in apologies and they were not like the whole as a father of daughters thing just makes me want to crawl under my desk. So it really was a self preservation tactic to be able to continue doing this work, being able to, you know, add lists of terrible, terrible phrases. It was a different time to, you know, to be able to put on these, on these bingo cards.

You know, I love the bingo cards. It's one of my favorite. And then you also have mad libs in. Sure, sure.

Yeah. Because the bad apology always, not always often follows a very familiar framework. Which is why, you know, I think earlier in the podcast I did a hey, guys. Which is the beginning of every influencer apology. I just wanted to come on here and, you know, we all know the contours of a bad political apology. You know, the whole. The buck stops here. I didn't know about it. It was my predecessor. But, you know, I will take responsibility. Like, oh, thank you for throwing yourself on the sword, you know.

Right.

Yes.

So there's so, so much. I think that the bingo cards too, well, there's the, the humor in them, but that makes it so I want to play the game. Right. I'm so excited. Another thing, I was like screenshotting on my phone, so I will have them. But then when I hear and see the apology coming, like, oh, I want to watch and see where these come up. And I think that that is also a filter you can go run through. Right. So like, if I've scripted out what I think my apology is going to be and I look and it says it depends or like, but they. Or whatever, like I can see them. Right?

Yeah.

Anyone who knows me knows that I.

Don'T have a racial bone in my body, which is always an interesting one. Somebody actually sent us and we didn't do anything with it. Somebody sent us a, an AI apology. Somebody asked an A, you know, chat GPT to apologize. And it was terrible. But I think it's because it you.

Know, it's having to learn from what people have done.

Exactly. And there are so many bad apologies out there that, you know, in some ways it's better to, you know, don't, don't use chat for this. Sit down and think about what you would want to hear.

And of course, you don't need to because you now have the book that can help you as you. As you are getting to Sorry. It's got the steps, it's got things in it. So for everyone who I know is now so excited to get and read the book of which, like I said, I laughed more reading this than I have laughed, I think, in a long time, I truly enjoyed it and I learned a lot. It's a really. It. It says so much about human behavior. I love that we talk about our capuchin monkeys and unfairness. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be linking to the episode. I have an episode on Inequity Aversion that will be in here too. So we could be talking about that. There's so much good stuff in there for everyone who's ready to learn more, to connect. Of course, you know, Sorry Watch, but what's the best way for them to be learning more and connecting with both of you?

You could email us at what are we sorryorrywatch.com Is that correct?

Yeah.

Check out the website, sorrywatch.com we are.

Trying to stay off of Twitter X toxic whatever. But you can reach out. You can reach us on. We have a Sorry Watch Facebook page. And yeah, we always welcome hearing from people.

Wonderful. We will put some links in the show notes. That being said, we don't do. We don't actually put email addresses in the show notes as a reminder to listeners because spam is real and I care about you and your inbox. So you can just go back and get that Sorry at Sorry Watch and make note of it here for everyone. But everything else will have linked in the show notes. And so thank you so much again, Susan and Marjorie, for your delightful book.

And for joining me on the show today.

Thank you so much.

Melina, thank you so much for such an enjoyable interview.

Oh, glad to hear it.

Yeah. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you again to Marjorie ENGEL and Susan McCarthy for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I can't possibly do justice.

To how fun this book was to read.

It's astonishing to see the terrible apologies out there. Fair warning, there are lots of swear words and potentially offensive phrasings as they're often quoting the shocking things people have actually said and done and badly apologized for. But it also has such a great balance of the good apology a message of how to know what's important to you and communicate well, of how to forgive when you want to and to not feel guilty if you don't. There are so many great lessons in this book, and as they said in the conversation, apologizing well isn't a sign of weakness, but one of great strength and confidence. It matters across life and business, and if we all apologized a little better and a little more, I think the world would be a much better place, don't you? As we close out the show, don't forget about those show notes, which include links to my top related past episodes and books, including Getting to Sorry, Ways to connect with Marjorie and Susan to.

Go check out sorrywatch.com and the amazing stories there and and more.

It's all waiting for you in the.

App you're listening to and at the.

Brainy business.com 391 and thank you again to Marjorie Engel and Susan McCarthy for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun you don't want to miss. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.