393. Mastering Workplace Conflict with Karin Hurt

Welcome to episode 393 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Karen Hurt, co author of Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict.

Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I am joined by Karen Hurt. Karen helps human centered leaders find clarity in uncertainty, drive innovation and achieve breakthrough results. She is the founder and CEO of Let's Grow Leaders, a global leadership development firm known for practical tools and techniques for human centered leaders. A former Verizon Wireless executive with more than two decades of experience in sales, customer service and human resources, Karen is known for growing courageous leaders, building great cultures and inspiring high performance teams. Since 2013, Karen and her husband David have grown tens of thousands of leaders on every continent except Antarctica with their leadership development programs and keynotes. They also provide clean water to the people of Cambodia through their winning Wells Philanthropic Initiative. Karen is an award winning author of five books including Courageous Cultures and Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict. We're going to touch on both of those today.

She's also the host of the popular.

LinkedIn show asking for a Friend and was recently named by Inc. Magazine as a top 100 great leadership speaker. Really quickly before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show notes for everything including my top related past episodes and book, including Powerful phrases, of course, and more.

It's all within the app you're listening.

To and at the brainy business.com 393 now let's jump right in. Karen Hurt, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yes. So excited to be talking about your new book. And before we jump straight into that would be great if you can share a little bit with everyone who doesn't yet know you about the work you do, your background, you know, how we found ourselves here.

Yeah. So thank you. So I run a company called let's Grow Leaders. We are known for very practical tools and techniques for human centered leaders. I run it with my husband, David Dye and we have written a number of books and so I know we're going to talk about powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict today, but also have Some books out what are. We're actually getting ready to go on our Southeast Asia tour for courageous cultures. How to build teams of micro innovators, problem solvers and customer advocates. Before founding let's Grow Leaders, I was at Verizon for 20 years. So everything that we talk about is based on extensive experience. Things I learned the hard way, screwing things up, leading a 10,000 person customer service organization, a 2200 person sales team. So if there is a mistake to be made, I have probably made it.

Well, I appreciate that you have plenty of examples in the book of experiences and having so many team members and such a. You say the scope of so many conversations over so many years. What I love about this is it's easy to just sort of get lost in the rigmarole. Of course, tons of people have that, like large teams like that and they're not necessarily weaving in the expertise and finding the language of being able to reuse information. So I always find it really fascinating. I know we have a lot of people that listen to the show that either write books, aspire to write books, are thinking about creating frameworks, all of this. So I actually was fascinated by how you structured the book. So can you share? Knowing we haven't gotten into the details of what's in there yet, but I feel like we'll kind of get there in this kind of roundabout way. How did you go about realizing, hey, I have like, this is like this and this is like this and this is how they go together. You know, how do you even start working with frameworks and stuff like that?

You know, it's, it's interesting because this has happened every single time we've written a book. We have it structured one way and then I wake up at 3 o' clock in the morning in a dark night of the soul and say, the whole thing is we got to reorganize the whole thing. So that happened again this time as well. And it's funny because David is like, was getting worried this time. He's like, you haven't had your dark night of the soul yet, so please do that soon so we have time to restructure it. But you know, we really like to ground our books in the research and you know, this one is grounded. The World Workplace Conflict and Collaboration Survey, which was, you know, 5,000 participants in 46 countries. And so we started there and that part didn't change because I really believe that no matter what you're doing, you know, you've got your own frameworks and opinions, but it's really helpful to ground it in research. And I know you are very big on that. So that's the starting point. So as we're thinking about structuring the book, we began with the research and really wanted to ground it in on why is workplace conflict happening and why is it so much harder now? And so we really do begin with the why, and then from there, really wanted to make it easy for people to have a framework to deal with any conflict situation that they could possibly encounter. And so that's when we start and talk about the four Cs of effective workplace conflict. Because not all conflict is bad, actually. You need that healthy tension. And we wanted to give people the courage and hope to lean into this right away, right off the start. So we talk about the four Cs, and then we give people 12 goats, greatest of all time, powerful phrases so that they can deal with any conflict that they're experiencing. So our hope is that even if you don't want to read the entire book, if you can read that first section, we want to leave you with the confidence to master any conflict that you're dealing with. Well. And then from there, we really wanted to make it easy with the table of contents. If anybody was in an ace, an acute conflict emergency, that they go to the table of contents and say, right now I am dealing with a boss who is a screamer of F bombs. What do I do? Or somebody just stole my credit for my work. What do I do? So you can certainly read it all the way through. But we really wanted to make it easy and practical for people to be able to implement right away.

Yeah. And I was so impressed by the short chapters as you're going into, like you said, those sections on the. The ace, right, where you really need help really quickly. Some examples, something you can just get the little bite that's enough to go. Feel like you're ready to go. You can get a bit of a script, right. And see some of what not to do and what you should do. I love that it includes some. Still some reflection, right? Where it's saying, like, is your boss actually a micromanager or are you not quite meeting expectations? You know, like, take a moment, look around. Is this an everyone problem or a you problem before you go start a fire that you don't want to start. Right. You want to think about the way to ask these questions and have that conversation in a way that's supportive is really, really helpful. Right. But still, those chapters are, you know, like four pages or something. I mean, you Breeze through them and they've got a nice summary and they give you sample language, they tell you a little bit about. This is probably what you're experiencing. This is what you should think about. Here's a phrase for this, for this, for this, for this, for this. Good luck. Right. You got this. And as someone who clearly always joke like brevity and I are not the best of friends, especially as when I'm talking on the show, when I'm thinking on stuff for books, I just, I want to say all the things in all of the places. So I'm always very impressed when people have really true short chapters.

Oh, well, thank you. You know, it's interesting, the other thing that we really were very intentional about when writing the book. So if you've got people who are writing books to think about is including other people's expert insights. And so that in every chapter, pretty much every chapter, we ask someone else who we know is really a smart thinker about that particular topic. And I'm really, it's interesting now as I'm, you know, going through and getting ready to do promotion for the book. And I'm really grateful for those experts. Right. They said wise things. And so I think it's nice to have some different points of view.

Yeah, definitely. And I like the way you have them as the call out boxes in the sort of case study examples that come in there where it's, you know, someone saying, when I was a young manager, this thing happened. And then I learned this where you can have the little blip of storytelling from another perspective that helps to showcase that, like, you will get through this. People have been here before. It's okay. Even like the thing that feels like is insurmountable.

It.

There's, there's light out there, right? You'll, you'll be able to, you too, you know, this too shall pass. Sort of a space with that.

It's so funny that you say that because, you know, when we started writing, you know, we always start with what do we want someone to think, feel or do after reading this book? And that is the number one thing I'm like, I want them to have hope that they actually can do this. Right.

And I think it's a really valuable, the way it comes through. There are points where you say like, if, if you've tried this, if you've done this, if you've looked at this, if you've made it this way, it might be time to look for another job, right? Like, there are some routes that end there and that's okay. And then, but it's saying, like, try some of these things first. Especially if you love the idea of the opportunity, if you love the organization, but you're stuck with one difficult person. You know, we don't have to totally throw in the towel immediately. There, there are options when you can be thoughtful about the conversation and, you know, some things to say, some things not to say, some that, you know, you really don't want to step in this thing over here. So avoid that.

Yes.

So can you share a bit about the, like you said, There are the four Cs, I guess, is that the right place to start? You're of course the expert in talking about this. So if that's not the right place, you run with that ball. You go where you should go.

So we call the four Cs, which are the four dimensions of constructive workplace conflict, or on the flip side, how to collaborate. Four Cs of collaboration. And it really begins with human connection. You know, are we connected as human beings? Do we know one another as human beings? And I like to think about this in two ways. One is, are you connected before you are in an acute conflict emergency?

Right.

It is. The more you can get to know people as human beings. You know, Bert A. Brown says it's hard to hate people up close. That is so true. Right. So investing in those relationships before you really need to collaborate, before you need to have a difficult conversation is the first piece. But then the second piece is how do you connect when you are in a difficult conversation? And so a couple of the goats, greatest of all time, powerful phrases for that. One of my favorites is just tell me more. So if someone comes to you and they're really, I'm really frustrated by this. And I, you know, I, I, you shouldn't have done it this way. Oh, gosh. Can you tell me some more about that? You know, can you tell me more about how you're feeling there? And then they're so they're not going to continue to push until you, you know, in frustration now they're feeling heard immediately. And so they, they will lower, you know, I know you're all about, you know, psychology, right. They're going to lower that angst in that conversation. Another thing you can do is reflect to connect. Sounds to me like you're really frustrated about this situation. Do I have that right? And so again, so the person immediately feels heard. And then finally, and this one, it works so well, is I really care about you and this team, this project, whatever it is that you really care about. Now, this only works if you actually really care. Right? But I really care about you. I care about your career. I want you to be successful. And I'm confident we can find a solution we can work with here. So you're expressing the connection. You're also showing up confident in the conversation. And that said, well, at the beginning of a conversation with the appropriate tone of voice and facial expression is going to get you a really long way no matter what your conflict is. So that's the first one, is connection, then clarity. Do we have a shared understanding of what success looks like? We always say one good conversation about expectations can prevent 14 wide engine conversations. Most conflict is coming from an expectation violation of some sort. Right. I thought that you would empty the dishwasher before you left for work. I came home to dish full of sinks. We have conflict. And maybe it was just like, oh, I was going to empty the dishwasher, just not before work. So it's that clarity. And one of my favorite quotes there is what would a successful outcome do for you? So this is, it goes one step beyond do we have a shared understanding of success? Now you're getting into that psychology of what are the real motivations? Why is this person caring so much about this? And you know, another one is, let's start with what we agree on. You know, because in most conflict you can go around and around and around because you're talking about all the things, but if you can establish up front that actually you agree on a lot of things, then you can streamline the conversation to talk about the elements that are really a challenge. So you've got connection, clarity. The next one is curiosity. And this. Are you genuinely interested in other people's perspectives? And you know, this is if you can show up, it's hard to be furious and curious at the same time. So if you can get yourself into a place of genuine curiosity. I'm curious what this looks like from your perspective. Is a goat there? What do you suggest we do next? What can I do to support you right now? These are all ways of showing up genuinely curious in the conversation. And then the final element is commitment. And this is another area we see people struggle with because they, they must share the courage to have the conversation. They have the conversation, but then they don't agree on next steps or they don't schedule time to follow up to see if it's actually going to happen. And now you are in a groundhog day of conflict and you've got to now muster the courage again. To have the conversation if it didn't go well. But if you can schedule a time and say, okay, so it sounds to me like we've got a great solution here. Why don't we check in and pick the appropriate time in three weeks and see how it's going. Let's put that on the calendar right now. Just 10 minute check in now. You don't have to muster the courage again to rehab to say, ah, it's not working, you're already having it. Plus you're both looking at this commitment you've got on your calendar. So you're paying attention to doing what you said you're going to do. So those are the four dimensions of constructive conflict. Right.

And it's not just to say, well, I'm really good at being curious. And so I've picked my avenue of powerful phrases. I will always go with curious. And I don't need to worry about the other three.

Absolutely. These work in combination. Right. And you always need the human connection. And you know, so it's, it is. And that's why we have such a menu, because we're not going to be able to give you a powerful phrase for every conflict that you ever have. But if you can say, all right, am I showing up connected? Am I curious? Am I creating clarity? Do we have a shared understanding of success? And am I moving this conversation towards commitment? If you can just remember that framework, you're. You're good. Right? Right.

And I think this very much ties in with, I'm assuming with the, the first book, looking more at culture. And like you said, it's about if you've never really had a, any sort of thoughtful conversation with someone, having the first time you have to sit down with them and saying, okay, I'm paying attention to you now and it's for a bad reason is hard.

Right.

It's a lot more difficult than if you already have the established relationship, if you have that psychological safety, if you're able to just sort of know that you both have each other's best interests really at heart. So if something does feel a little bit awkward, it's not going to be, you know, the end of, of days and this is kind of your first encounter with this person. But so how do you recommend, as far as. For people that are listening and let's say they're not quite in that ace moment, but they want to start laying some groundwork to where they can be ready, like, or trying to mitigate, reduce conflicts before they even come up. Right. What are some of the suggestions they can use, the insights you have, the powerful phrases so you're ready when you need them. You can be on the lookout for those, but what can you be doing to avoid even having to. To get to some of this point?

Yeah. So of course, first start with genuine human connection and building those relationships and investing time. Particularly if you're working in a remote environment, it's easy just to keep your head down and not, not really learn about the human aspect of people. And, you know, imagine you're in a situation where you've got a co worker named Joe. And you know, Joe is like a super nice guy and he got you out of a jam when your kid was sick and by the way, just told your boss how great you are at pivot tables. And then he does something that really ticks you off, like it appears that he has stolen credit for your work. You're going to show up more curious if you're like, Joe is a nice guy. I already know Joe. I think Joe has my best interest at heart. This must be, you know, this must be an accident of some sort of. But if it's somebody that you have zero relationship with, you've never really talked to them and then you're like, who the F is this guy? Right? So that's the first thing. The second is, I would just say it's all about clarity. It is, you know, are we really clear about expectations? Are we clear about norms? And that's some of the conflict that we're seeing in this new uncertain world where everything is changing. Right. We have now conflict about should we be using AI or is that unethical? We are having conflict about should we turn our cameras on or off when we're doing our one on one meetings. And all of this can be resolved if we have clear expectations. This is how we're going to use AI. This is the times we're going to have the cameras on. When we say office occasional, no, we don't mean you can work from a petting zoo. That's off limits. Right? And so it's those. I would really say, have I been clear about what success looks like for my team? And you don't even need to be the manager. A lot of what we talk about in the book is how do you, if you don't have the clarity that you need, how do you ask for it instead of getting frustrated and trying to guess, right. And then you've got rework and all those other frustrations, right?

And having someone cross a line that you thought was Obvious or implied or whatever it is. And you wouldn't even think that anybody would get close to this thing. But if you didn't define it in advance, it's also, you don't really have recourse. And then it's this really weird situation that is hard to get back out of. Right. But people do have a hard time often, you know, setting the expectation, partially because we get busy, partially because it seems obvious, all sorts of things. And that may feel like you're bringing up a conflict before you have to bring up a conflict by trying to set the expectations. This is also where sometimes you might not create a contract because it feels like it's getting into this weird scenario. You don't want to put someone on the spot. Side note, always have a contract. Must stop. Yes to contracts. They are important. Even if it's like free. If it's internal stuff, it's really good to have contracts because like you're saying, it helps to clarify expectations. If you were talking to someone who felt insecure about the idea of being bringing up these expectations, maybe it's because they have a boss that doesn't set expectations for them. Worry about the accountability that comes with an expectation. If you go in and set it, you know, what advice do you have for someone to start this conversation?

You know, it's interesting. When we wrote our very first book, which is called Winning, well, David said we've got to put this concept of a check for understanding in there. Now a check for understanding is just a send all communication as a send and receive. So this is not saying, hey, all right, you tell somebody something and then you say, do you understand? That's not a check for understanding. A check for understanding is. I just want to make sure I'm real clear on this and that we have leave nothing to the benefit of the doubt here. Like what did you hear me say? Or what do you think are the next things steps here? What do you see as what needs to happen this week with this project and hear it back from them. Now when David said that, I'm like, you have got to be kidding me. Everybody knows that we don't need to put that in that book. And we had very few real conflicts when we were writing that first book, but that was one of them. And I'm like, it's going to be too simple. Do you know that we have now we work with organizations all over the world. We do training at the C level of organizations all over, all the way through at the end of a six month program. Do you know what the number one thing always is every single time, without fail. What did you really take away from this program? Well, I've got to tell you that check for understanding has changed my life. So it's not that hard. And you know, you're not. People worry about doing it because they don't want to sound, like, condescending. Now, what did you hear me say? It's not that. It's like, I just want to make sure, like, we're at full agreement here about what we're doing here next. And, you know, part of this can save you so much time. So your boss comes to you and gives you a huge project, and you are looking at this thing and you're going, oh, my goodness, this thing is going to take me three months and I'm already underwater. What do I do? And so you can do a check for understanding and say, just want to check for understanding here. I see this project. These are the components. I think. I think this is going to take us about three months now. It's possible that your manager is going to go three months. No, no, no, no, no. I don't need fancy schmancy with this. I just need you to, like, a quick hour and tell me, is this a market we should pursue? Right? Oh, good thing you did to check for understanding instead of stayed late and worked all that extra time. And you know, I really. It works really good with your kids, too, right? Because. And you know, when people do this clumsily, they're just saying, do you understand everybody good? Do you have it? And when you ask, is everybody good? And your team all looks at you and they're totally silent, you're gonna. It's easy to assume that silence means they got it, but they could be walking away doing seven different things.

Yes, this is my perfect point to be able to say one of my personal mission is to remove the phrase does that make sense? From all communication. I cannot stand that. And it's a thing that I know. What's hard about it is. So it's really common. People say it all the time. And some of those, like, habitual questions that feel like you're checking in can be one rubbing people the wrong way. And you don't realize how. How it may put people on the spot. You don't want to say, like, no, it doesn't make sense. I'm stup right. Like, that's the way that you feel on the other side. And that is definitely not the way people mean it when they say it. I've always Recommended. And the way I've reframed this, because again, natural turn of phrase, we do it all the time, is to instead say, did I explain that well? Right. And like you've said here in the. Let's have a check for understanding. Can you, can you share back to me what you think or like, what you interpreted or like, if I explain again, if I explain that well, right. To be able to say, I want to make sure that I'm not missing something, but make it about me. And then it's able for someone to say, well, actually, I didn't quite get this. Can you go get some more depth on it versus it being something inherently in them? If. Does that make sense? Do you understand in this?

Yeah. You know, I also. We also teach a emotional check for understanding, which I actually learned from a boss named Ray Davidson Sim when I was about 27 years old. And he said, karen, when you end, I was very gung ho. I know you find that hard to believe, but I would end meetings like, oh my gosh, thank you so much, everybody. You did such a fantastic job today. Let's go do this. And he said, karen, when you end a meeting like that, you make it impossible for someone to raise a concern. You're too gung ho, you're intimidating. He said, what instead? And I think he was also trying to teach me executive presence, but said, what if you edited your meetings like this? Thank you all so much. A very productive meeting today. I really appreciate it. Before we close, let me just ask, how are you feeling when you did that? How are you feeling? Well, actually, I'm feeling a little concerned. Right. I've got this issue. I don't know if we can handle it. How was this prioritized with everything else? So just pausing from time to time and asking people how they're feeling? We do that in our training programs too. You're in a day long session, it's three o', clock, asking genuinely, how are you feeling? Like, is it too much? Do we need to take a break? Do we need to slow down? Do we need to revisit something? It's always good just to take a.

Little pause and asking the question. And like you said, with enough of a pause that people can then respond. And knowing how you ask the question, I often laugh. I had a. At a previous job, the CEO was one that tended to be someone that would say, how does that sound to everybody? Good. Okay. Right. And would just like kind of jump in. And so someone had told him that he needed to pause, you know, take 10 seconds. You. And it feels like a long time for you, but you got to take 10 seconds. And he would actually say. He would ask the question and then go, 1, 2, 3, Counting, you know, so like, you know, he's at least trying, but kind of an interesting inside.

Voice he was supposed to be counting with.

Yeah, yeah. The first time you're in that meeting, you go, what's. What's happening right now? But it works out, right? So you can tell that someone is at least putting in the effort. There are so many avenues we could go for some of the areas of support. And the one that stands out for me first would be the overwhelm. And knowing there are so many people that are overwhelmed. And I think that this expectation piece really comes into play like you were just talking about, which is why it came to mind for me. But, you know, in my book, what your Employees need and Can't Tell youl, I talk about this kind of. There's a whole chapter that's this, the two week, like three weeks.

We'll do it in two.

Right?

This idea that you're going to way over commit and feeling like, you know, sometimes genuinely the person asking what you need or like, can you do this? And like you're thinking it's three months and you say, oh, yeah, we can do it in lesser or whatever. You're trying to really stretch. And maybe you say, oh, I guess it'll take us two weeks. They go, whoa, I thought it was going to be at least six, but great, I'll tell Bob we can make the budget meeting next week or whatever. Now you go, oh, no, we've overcommitted the team. Right. So what are some of the thoughts? I just really like the chapter on overwhelm. So whatever, however you want to take that.

Yeah. So it was interesting. My favorite powerful phrase from this section also came from a boss that I had back in my Verizon days when I had moved into a bay. I was leading a bunch of large call centers. And she took me aside on my very first day and handed me a scorecard of 27 items. And she said, okay, so I want to know which of these you're going to fail at. It's my first day, right, Maureen, I am not going to fill it any of these. And she just looked at me totally seriously. She says, karen, not all of these metrics matter the same. If you're going to drop a ball, I want to know that you and I are absolutely aligned on which of these you can drop. And so the powerful phrase that I've taken from that is, if I had to drop a ball, I am feeling like this is a lot. If I had to drop a ball, not say, I'm going to, but if something were to not get done as well as the others, what would that be? Right. And I think if you say that, you know, with a real, like, I am committed to doing a good job, and I'm concerned that I might not be able to get it all done. Can you help me prioritize here? Right. What you're really getting to is what we call mit. Most important thing. What really is the most important thing that you're working on, and you have a shared vision of success. The other, you know, another is, can you ask for help? And that is a lot of times. And I even see this on our own team, you know, we write books about this stuff and we have people on our team who, they'll work so hard on something before they'll raise their hand and say, you know, I don't understand, or I could use some help, or this isn't realistic. So being willing to just advocate for what you need because. And to get the courage for that, you know, because you're like, I don't want to look like I'm. I'm inadequate. You are committed to doing a good job. Right. Running around, being overwhelmed and feeling scattered is not going to make you do your very best job. So you coming to a place of, no matter who you're asking for help, whether it's a co worker, whether it's your manager, whether it's somebody in another department, I'm really committed to getting this done. Right. And I got to tell you, I need some help. Everybody would rather hear that than for you to screw it up. Okay.

Yes. Yeah. One of the things that I used to tell my team was there's a moment like when you feel in the pit of your stomach that you might not hit the deadline, something might go wrong, you have that moment, that's the time to come talk to me. Whenever that happens, trying to work through it, mask it, you know, spin around on things, by the time you've missed the deadline, it's really hard to help. Whereas if we're a week or two weeks out, there are options, you know, that we can go. And so someone doesn't have a manager that's telling them that, and they're feeling like they have to be taking it all on and they are working late and they're working through the weekends and they're doing all this. And they feel like it must be known that they're dealing with this. Their manager has to know what sort of nightmare they're dealing with. Is that always the case or should they bring it up?

They should bring it up. But I will tell you, a lot of what we'll do is in our work with organizations, we'll be doing executive coaching with the senior team and then we'll be doing training with managers below that. And I cannot tell you how often I'll hear some. A manager, like, I worked all weekend and I am just exhausted. And I'm like, do you think John knows that? And they're like. And I'm like, either you can ask John or I'm going to ask John, but let's. Do you have your permission to ask John how much? And he's like. And John says, karen in no, by no. Stretch the imagination. Do I want this person working on Sunday? Like, it's not that important. We can figure this out. Right? And so I think a lot of times, you know, we work harder than we need to because we're just not elevating the conversation.

And so what's the. When they, if someone doesn't have you, they need to go have this conversation with their boss. What's, what's a phrase? What's a way to start that conversation?

Yeah, I would start with the. I really care about, like, I'm really, I'm really committed to doing a great job with this. And I gotta tell you, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm gonna give you some examples. You know, this weekend I worked all day Saturday, all day Sunday. What do you. And then, you know, what do you think we can do to make this more manageable? Right. And I mean, there, you know, there are times in everybody's career where you're going to have a crazy, you know, run of things. But most managers do not have an expectation that that's going to be all the time. And I think inviting them and say, what do you think we could do? What ideas do you have? You're going to have a receptive manager. I mean, most managers are not psychopaths. They really do want a care about you and two, care about the work. Right?

Yeah. In general, they, they want to support you as you, you found here and asking about, there may be something that was a priority three months ago that you, you still have at the forefront of something you think matters and they forgot to tell you that that project got nixed or, or whatnot. And so if you aren't continually asking about and setting priorities and you're not letting them know that you're still working on a thing that they forgot that they thought they told you or maybe, you know, got lost in an email somewhere that that got dropped. Resetting those expectations, having the conversation is really important. I think along those lines, you know, with something like workplace conflict, it can feel like it only applies to the, like you say this the screaming manager with the F bombs or whatever else. But how do you define and think about conflict? How do you think people should be thinking about workplace conflict in a way that helps to consider the scope of the value from the book.

Conflict is inevitable. If you've got people who are working together, who care about what they're doing and all conflict is not bad. Conflict means you have a different point of view. And so, you know, David is my husband and my co author. We are in conflict all day long and it's, it's good conflict. Right. So it's the kind of conflict of I see a brand new opportunity for us to go after that is a really strategic, possible game changer. His conflict as the, you know, the more of the operations guy is okay, maybe. But let's also consider the downstream implications of all of this. And often he'll say to me, we could, here's what will happen if we do that. This is what's not. If I focus on this or if we have our team focusing on this, this is what we're going to have to, we're going to have to delay our product launch. We're going to have to not take any more on any more keynotes we're going to have. Right. And it means we might not be able to put what we need after around this. And then so now we are now having a conversation and a lot of times there's this chapter in there about how do you say no. Right. And then when you're saying, one of the best ways to think about saying no is say you've got. When you say no, what are you saying yes to? And so you're redirecting the conversation to okay, I'm going to say no to this because this is the most important thing I'm working on. What do you think about that? Yeah, you're right. That probably is. This was a good idea, but maybe we'll do it three months from now. So, you know, I think that if you can think about conflict as the best way to get to a bigger result so that you're going to have attention, you're going to have different points of view. And the best teams actually have more conflict. Right. Because they're talking about things but they feel safe to do it just if you've got it. If you tell me you've got a team that never ever disagrees, I'm going to think you do not have a very high performing team. Right, right.

Yeah. Bringing stuff up, having that conversation is you have to be invested to be willing to have the conversation. I love so the Power of Us. I feel like I talk about this book all the time but in it they talk about dissent and how dissent in an organization when it's not just to be like, you know, anarchy but like actual say, you know, I've been thinking about this other thing. Bringing it up actually shows that you're really invested in the well being of the organization and wanting to move things forward, being thoughtful. So of course I will link to my conversation with Dominic Packer in the show notes along with that book. And I'm so glad you brought up saying no. While I was reading that chapter I was thinking about my great conversation with Vanessa Patrick about her book the Power of Saying no and like how to say no. And really big tips to for anybody who struggles with that. This book is really helpful for w so you can be ready for these powerful phrases to be able to share with. With saying no to things. As we look to wrap up the conversation. Is there another thing I should have asked about a section you don't get to talk about enough that you're really excited about or, or anything that you think should be shared with those who are listening?

You know, I think the only other thing that I would say is some. And you brought this up at the beginning, sometimes you should quit the conflict, you know, so if there, if there is a major values clash, if you have tried all the things you've worked through, you've tried some powerful phrases, you've tried to build connection. If you are exhausted, if your mental health is really suffering, if you're seeing that you are now becoming that boss that you don't want to be to other people, then I would take a step back and say, is this worth it? Is this the right. You know, because a lot of the times you're going to be able to solve through it and sometimes the best thing you could do is get a fresh start and walk away. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And the book does have support, of course. Like I said, as you're going through the journey, there may be those specific examples of being able to say so if it is that you're Working with credit stealers and micromanagers. Right. You can be going through those chapters in the book and saying, okay, if I try this, I try this, I try this. And then there's some version of a. Like you said, the hope someone's been here before. There's, there's a route for me to be able to try to help, feel confident if I get to the other side and say, yeah, it's, it's time, like, you know, you, you put in the, that sort of best effort to feel confident in that choice.

Yeah, absolutely.

I love it. Well, thank you so much again for joining me on the show to talk about these powerful phrases for your wonderful, wonderful book. For everyone who is so excited to learn more, to connect to hear about these, you know, trainings and things you're doing, get their copies of the book, you know, what's the best route for them to do some of that?

Yes. So the book is Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict. What to say next to de Stress the workday, Build collaboration and calm difficult customers. Our website is let's Grow Leaders. And if you go to the website, you will see you can download free sample chapters. There's all kinds of free articles, lots and lots of ways to see if this is something that would be helpful for you. And then if you'd like to connect on LinkedIn, I'd love to do that. I'm Karen Hurt. Karen with an I. Perfect.

We will of course, link to all that in the show. Notes to make it easy for everyone. And thank you again, Karen, for joining me on the show today.

It was really delightful to chat with you.

Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you so much.

Thank you again to Karen Hertz for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really enjoyed all the examples in the book and as I said to Karen during the conversation, the way they've been able to keep the chapters so succinct, yet powerful. When you're dealing with a workplace conflict and you need that powerful phrase, you want to be able to quickly find it, understand it and use it. No need for fluff that'll make it hard to find. I love how they've managed to strike that, that difficult balance of being informative enough to be useful without feeling like too much. It really makes this into a practical workplace guide that should be on every shelf at home and in the office if they aren't in the same place for you. And to make that easy on you, there is, of course a link in.

The show notes so you can pick.

Up your own copy of Powerful Phrases for dealing with workplace conflict.

You'll also find my top related past.

Episodes and other books, books, a timestamp.

Summary of the episode, ways to connect.

With Karen, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 393 and thank you again to Karen Hurt for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.

It's it's going to be a lot of fun.

You won't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit visit thebrainybusiness.com.