397. Exploring Behavioral Economics with Jeff Kreisler of JP Morgan Chase

Welcome to episode 397 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Jeff Kreisler, head of behavioral science for JPMorgan Chase. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Jeff Kreisler. While Jeff is now the head of Behavioral Science at JP Morgan Chase, the story of how he got there and all the twists and turns in his life and career are fascinating. I won't spoil it for you. I gave him lots of time at the beginning of the conversation to share a about his background. So you do know he has written multiple books and also appeared on cnbc, cnn, Fox News, msnbc, Current tv, Sirius XM and at events all over the world. Jeff uses behavioral science, real life and humor to understand, explain and change the world. Sounds like a perfect fit around here and I'm excited to introduce you to him today. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything, including my top related past episodes, articles and books. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com 397 now let's jump right in. Jeff Kreisler, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Thanks for having me. Long overdue.

Exactly. I was just going to say the same thing. I While I will say I haven't pestered you for a long time, you've definitely been on my list for a long time and I'm so delighted that you are here. For anyone, the few out there who don't yet know you or your work, can you share a little bit about your background and the work that you do? And everyone, Jeff has a very interesting background, so I hope you go into great detail with us.

Well, do you want the short quick version or do you want the.

You may. If you so choose, you may start with the short version and know that I'm going to make you give the long version. So if you just want to jump in.

Thank you. I'm Jeff Kreisler. I am currently the head of Behavioral Science at a little mom and pop called JP Morgan and that's about it. Good night, everybody.

Yay. The short version. All right, now give me the real, the real story.

So I will say that I often by luck of circumstance am asked to give like career advice. And I always like say I can't like fail upwards or get lucky because my story is not replicable. As I'm sure other guests you've had like behavioral science wasn't really a thing when I was like in college and growing up and all that. So I'll tell you how I got here. Relevant points. I'm the youngest of three children and my mother always put no. I went to Princeton and studied economics and politics and Russian studies. Then I went to law school so that I could be Thurgood Thomas or Tom, excuse me, Thurgood Marshall or Thomas Jefferson. Those jobs were taken. I took time off in the middle of law school, went back and finished and it just, none of that stuff clicked for me. I had plenty of opportunities, I had plenty of work things handed to me somewhat on a platter. I'll admit to that bit of privilege there. So after law school I became a stand up comedian, moved to San Francisco and, and it was great. There's a lot of reasons why I did that. You know, with the benefit of hindsight now I see a through line of comedian to behavioral scientists. Comedian says, hey, look at these people do these crazy things. And behavioral sciences, yes. Yeah, this is why. But even more so if I include like my interest. I love studying the law, by the way. I just didn't want to be a lawyer. If I include the law and comedy and behavioral science, each looks at a situation, something happens and they break it down into its elements and then retell the story of that for a reason. For a lawyer, it's to get his or her client off. A comedian to get a laugh and a behavioral scientist, I believe to explain why that just happened. And so, you know, if you want me to lay on the therapy couch, my dad is a physicist. And so that it, there's a scientific element through everything that I've done more relevant to why like I bailed on the, the, the law and or finance initially was because that wasn't like, it wasn't how people really acted. Right. All these rules and systems in place, it just people. My day to day was not driven by like supply and demand, but it got solved, that sort of missing piece. When I discovered behavioral science and how I got there was I was doing stand up comedy in San Francisco. A friend of mine was a editor at TheStreet.com, which is Jim Cramer's finance website. He said, hey, do you want to write a weekly business humor column? I said, that sounds stupid. He says, we can pay you some money. I said, that sounds great. So I get it. Nothing like struggling as a creative personnel. Do you make career choices? I did that for a while. That got some attention. Then I got offered to write a book for a publisher. That was my first book. It was a satire called Get Rich Cheating. To be very clear satire. It was like how to be Enron or Lance Armstrong or you know, use steroids or cheat in Hollywood and all this. And it was so fun to write. And a lot of thing good things happened with that TV exposure and different festivals and, and you know, I was doing okay with comedy and you know, scrapping together a tiny living. But the relevant thing that happened is the book got in the hands of Dan Ariely, who I'm sure your, your listeners know who at the time was working on his book about dishonesty. And he invited me to come speak at his class, which is amazing. He like, we decided I spoke in character, right? So my get Rich cheating character was this pro cheating. And I, it was fascinating to be in front of this class of Duke business students and event and you know, I'd be like, hey you guys, let's just put aside your morals and ethics and just make money. And unique wealth building tricks. Take steroids, don't worry long term health. And then at some point someone in the class would go, hey, are you full of crap? And I say like, what do you, what do you think? And, and it was always like a tiny little percentage of them were like, hey, you got some great ideas. Like hey, no, that wasn't the point. Anyway, let's not go too far down that tangent. But, but basically from the relevant career move or a boost was I then discovered behavioral science, which this is an audience I don't need to spend time explaining. It just sort of was a light bulb for me. It's not the cure for everything, but that perspective of like, yes, we have economic systems and data and numbers and legal systems, everything else. But at the end of the day, individuals make decisions as people. They're flawed and they're not super computers. It was just like, oh yeah, I love this. I was writing for a TV show for at the time I was doing a bunch of stuff, but Dan and I did some small projects. And then actually when the network that I was working on this TV show got sold and I remember I was down in Durham at Duke. And Dan was like. Basically said, hey, you're gonna need health insurance, aren't you? I was like, yeah, I'll figure it out. And he said, you want to work on a book with me? And I was like, sure, I guess so. And that book would end up being dollars and cents, which came out in 2017, is now out in 22 countries. And, you know, in the process, I never, unlike probably many of your guests, like, I don't have a PhD in behavioral science. I like to think I got sort of an informal degree and that Dan gave me. He said, here's every study ever written about the psychology. Here is like, all this, all this other books and TED talks and things. And he was always the filter to make sure anything that we put out or that I wrote was, like, accurate. And he was very adamant about that. And I just sort of was like, listen, how can I. As the book approached, I knew that given Dan's popularity, there'd be sort of a pop, like, what can I do here? Like, I want to advocate for this as something that organizations and individuals and politicians and governments could use as, like, an additional tool. I know this is a long intro.

I love it.

I'm almost at the end. And I have my. My own skill set, which, roughly speaking, let's say, is communicating. Right? If I can tell jokes in a country western bar in West Virginia about progressive politics, I can explain a lot of things to a lot of people. That's my humility. So I. I got an opportunity to run People Science, which was a website and a platform that at the time, it was pretty much People Science and Behavioral Scientist.org were the only places that were sort of putting out behavioral science content to be more consumed by a broader audience. And I also did some speaking and consulting with different industries, different companies, and that was great. And I learned again, like, how it's applied. Like, the people science is all talking with scientists and talking with business people. And, like, how do you bridge that gap to, you know, get things done and. And do this? Covid hit. Everything stopped. I had amazing covet hair, which, if I were prepared, I would have showed you. Like, the pair was like, this big, was so good. And I got a LinkedIn message from JP Morgan saying, hey, we have an interesting opportunity. You want to talk? And I'd be like, maybe it's a chance to do, like, a virtual training or whatever. And they said they were looking for a head of behavioral science. And I was like, oh, I can do that. I hate to say this to your audience. People probably looking for opportunities. But it was, you know, they reached out to me and, you know, I know we were thinking about talking more about, like, why I decided, like, I can talk more about how that all came about. But basically In December of 2020, I started in this role and it's been incredible. That's the story. There are many things were left out, but I think that's the relevant outline.

Oh, it's perfect. And thank you. And I know that of course you're a funny guy. You're joking along the way of the, like, that's my humility and whatnot. And yes, there's luck and things. There is like you mentioned, some privilege, right place, right time sort of stuff. And there is a bit of owning your thoughts and the, the story and the belief and seeking things out and making those connections that, you know, Dan meets a lot of people and he doesn't just ask all of them to write a book with him. Right. And all of these aspects. And so I'm sure, you know, and I think for everyone listening to, as you think about those. I talk all the time about just being a good, kind, human person out in the world and knowing that it's going to come back, you know, at some point. And it may not be J.P. morgan calling everyone. It can't be right. But everyone can have their version of whatever, of whatever that is by you know, putting. Putting good stuff out into the world and being curious, I think.

Well, I mean, I will say I mentioned people sometimes ask career advice, which makes me very uncomfortable. But I. I will say there are a couple things that are to take from my story, which is one, like, I just kind of always kept my head on a swivel, if you will. I'm always seeing what opportunities around because for a decade plus I had a North Star of. I want to create and host my own version of the Daily Show. Right now that is like a one in a gajillion chance. But there are opportunities that come along, like, does it scratch some of the itch? Does it satisfy some element? Check some boxes. Right. Writing a business humor column that's not hosting a Daily show, but like it's getting out there. It's thinking about news. It's. And then I wrote on a political opinion news show as a writer. And so just keeping an open mind about where things were going and trying to be honest with myself. I'd love to say I debiased myself, but I didn't really. But honest about where things led. All that is I Think healthy, particularly in an economy now where people don't have a lifelong career. And I'll also just repeat my caveat that I did have, I did have the privilege that me walking on a tightrope also had a safety net of a Princeton degree and a law school degree underneath it. And like, that was not, that was always in the back of my mind. If need be, they're there. So it made it easier to take those chances.

But yeah, definitely. Well, I'm curious too. I, I definitely see the tie in and connection between humor and behavioral science in the same way you were talking about, of, there's the comedian side of like making the joke about a funny observation and then understanding kind of why we do these things. And I, I like to use humor in my stuff. I don't think anyone's begging me to go do any sort of stand up comedy, but I think helping people to see the humor in it is valuable. I don't know, I feel like there's a question in there somewhere, but I haven't gotten to it.

Well, I too think obviously there's a connection. And I think it's like if you observe there's two elements. One is that the old, like the more you know, the more you realize you don't know stuff. And like sometimes coping with the, the unknowable of the world, if that sounds very grand, like you have to laugh a little bit. And there's also in, in my mind, like people are like irrational is the, is the word of choice here. They're absurd, they're silly, they're. We're just very human. And I know I can remember a moment in my life when I was just like, I was like 15, I was so stressed about getting everything perfect and then something switched and I was just like, I'm gonna do the best I can. And like the mistakes, I'm just gonna laugh at them because it's funny. It's a unique, special thing about being alive. And I think that in some ways that mindset also translates to behavioral scientists. I mean, how can you observe people's behavior, right? And like do something where you test, hey, if I put the bowl of grapes in front of the cookies, like, how do people react, like these tiny little things, like potentially massive impact. Could you not see that that's just absurd?

Right?

I am very much have a mindset of. I like to think I've, I'm good at taking tests, I can get A's in classes and I know stuff, but I don't know how the world works. And it's easier to laugh at that absurdity than it is to stress about it.

Yeah. And it's just I think noticing things like you're saying and then asking the question and then testing. Right. Those little bits of what would happen if. And like you said, it doesn't have to be a big formal over the top test, but just, hey, if we put the grapes in front of the cookies, do people make a different choice?

You know what's interesting, I hadn't even thought about this comedy science connection, this specific element, which is that that's what you do as a comedian is you write a joke and then you try it out 10 times, 100 times, and all you're doing is you're changing a word or a place or a pause or a breath or like how you to get it perfect and then somebody younger and better looking than you gets the job anyway. It's fine. I'm not a bitter. I don't have any.

For sure. Well, and in that, I mean when it comes to that, you know, the public speaking or any of that too is, you know, it's not that it's the first time great comedians make it feel like this is the first time they're saying the joke and it just like came to mind. But as you're saying, it's been worked to get to that point.

There's some spontaneity. I mean, if you. Again, I don't want to get on the therapy couch. Part of my challenge was I hated being scripted, so I would script chunks of it. Let's maintain spontaneity.

Oh, yes.

Anyway, let's not make this about my comedy career. Electrodes from not just my, my spouse and my business partners. Don't. Don't be funny. I'm not funny. I'm.

You're funny. Adjacent. That's where. Yeah.

All right, I gotta tell you about. I was on this show. It was an off Broadway show, weekly show from the co creator of the Daily show. And it was, it was a fake morning news program and it came out, it was 2007-09 or something. And when Barack Obama won, we did, we did a, one of those commemorative plates and it was, it was, it was the Joe Biden commemorative plate, who at the time was the vp and it was called like adjacent to history. And it was like a big picture of Obama with like a tiny little hiding in the bottom.

So.

Thank you for making me feel like I'm adjacent to comedy.

You're welcome.

You got me at the end of A long week. So my tangents are like, hot. They're coming in hot and non directional.

I love it. You know, and you can be the president of comedy someday if that story, you know, keeps. Keeps on running along.

Let's not continue that metaphor.

Well, I, I did go and watch multiple of your talks and go. I did my research preparing for this conversation today. As you know, we know we've adjacently known each other for a long time and good to be able to chat here today. One of the things I like is you do actually start several different talks, I think, that have a couple of different questions that you ask to help kind of point out some of these absurdities that people have and the like. In one context we get it and in another one we don't. And specifically this, I really like the, the gallon of gas as an example. Can you share a little bit about. I guess that, but even, you know, how did you come about landing on that being the thing that resonates with the, I guess even the talks you do.

Well, not to get into communication science, but like, I'm just doing stand up comedy. I know you got to start with something catchy like give people a reason to care about what you're talking about and connect with it. And I do ask different, depending on the topic, different questions that have involved. I actually haven't done that one question in a while. But it's basically like, you know, how many people here know within whatever 50 cents the price per gallon of gas to fill up a car? And except in New York City, where nobody drives, most people rate, which I found out the hard way, people, most people raise their hand, say, you know, 80% of a room does. Then I say, okay, how many people know within 50 cents or dollar the price per gallon to heat your home? And almost nobody does. And the point, as you were saying, is to describe, like, I'm basically saying, what's the price per gallon of energy? But in one context we're like super familiar with it and another we're not. And what this then leads to, depending on how the whole talk is structured, is just like the idea of mental accounting. Money is not just the number. It's like, what's our mindset at the time of making a decision? Like, how do we feel? How connected are we to our choices? And I've seen that in so many context, whether it's heating your home versus filling your car, whether it's buying vitamins versus buying prescription medicine, whether it's, you know, being on vacation and buying a soda Right. I'll be on the beach and I'll pay $15 for a warm flower. Coca Cola. Right. I would never do that in the supermarket. But it's like just different mindsets where we're paying attention differently. I see that with wealth planning and financial advice. Right. Is it your, is your safe money? Is it your philanthropy, your risk taking, like, how you're engaged with it makes a huge impact on what we do. And it's something that I, I, it's one of the things that when I stumbled into this, I discovered for me, drove home the, the potential impact of behavioral science. Because this is something that for me, I had sort of, maybe in the back of my head I like, sort of had a, like a, an unspoken inkling that like, I was treating stuff different. But until I heard, oh, this is actually a saying, then I had license to like, lean into it or try to oppose it. And, and honestly, I mean, maybe feel the same way. I feel like every time if I talk to a group of professionals about behavioral science in their field, 80 plus percent of it, if not more, is stuff they already know they just didn't put the words to. Right. If you're successful, you figured out that you, that people have loss, aversion or risk of like you sort of. And so I lead with that because it's with that question, because that and some of the other ones are things that people get it. Like they know. Yeah, you're right. I know when I'm filling up my car, but not otherwise. And it's like an entree to say, I'm not here to tell you what I think. I'm here to talk to you about what you think and feel.

Yeah, interesting. Kind of a reframe there. Right? And helping people to accept what you're talking about as that baseline premise in when they can recognize and say, yeah, I've seen that, I do that, I get that. Then it carries into, and now what can I do with it? What does that mean, you know, to me moving forward? One of the things that I think is sort of, kind of related to this perhaps because I just want it to be and I accept that is one of the ways that you said something that I really liked that I heard a couple of different times in looking is that you saying all decisions are value judgments. And I think that's put in a way that's really helpful for people to think about a little bit. And I think you've touched on it. But can you expand on that idea a little bit?

It's A framing that I thought about when we wrote the Dollars and cents book. Because when we make decisions, we basically are weighing two choices and deciding which one is the better choice. And the biases that we have impact how we value each choice, whether it's how much time we spend on it, what data we use to decide how we feel about it. Thinking about it that way made it easier for me to wrap my head around even what behavioral science can do. Because I started to think about it in terms of what it did. Is it overweighted or underweighted? Sort of one choice. Now, that isn't exclusively how things work. And it's not like fully covering everything. But as a sort of entry point, I found when I talk to people in particular about decision making, science, let's call it, that they sort of understood. Right. That these biases like a sale price. Right. Makes us overweight. Based on relativity. The. Yes, let me buy the thing versus let me not buy the thing. Because relativity makes me think, oh, a hundred dollar sweater, that's marked down to 60. Right. That's a great deal. Right. I'm saving $40. I feel good about making this thing. Like there's a. There's an emotional weight to it that makes the scales tip a little towards that in a way that isn't necessarily rational.

Yes. And I'll definitely link to. I made a note to link to my episode on Relativity in the show. Notes for anyone who's not familiar with that concept yet. It's one of my favorite ones, especially when we get into pricing and things like that.

It's the one that when we. When I talk about the book and I've done the book tour and people read it, that's the thing that people always reach out to me about. Right. Is sale prices. Is the relativity.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Sale prices. You mentioned a little bit that had to do with some of that investing kind of tidbits on there. I would love to hear. You know, you mentioned you've been at JP Morgan for three and a half years now at the time that we're kind of talking. And so I guess a little bit of what drew you to that role. You mentioned they reached out to you, but you obviously had had choices, you know, value judgments in there. And I guess, you know, what's. What's kept you there? What's exciting about the work you're doing?

To answer the last part first, I'm still learning. There's like a lot to learn and about the field and interacting with people and the potential impact and it's been great. What drew me were a few things. One is the potential impact, you know, JP Morgan Chase as a whole, the whole organization, like half of American families have some sort of account. And imagine a world where like the, the work that me and behavioral science somehow scaled out, like, improves people's financial decision making by 1% or reduces their stress by 1 on that scale. Like, you know, I've always been driven by delusions. That's one of them. That was certainly attractive. What was attractive was. So there was someone before that I joined that wasn't a behavioral scientist, but he had like a psychology degree and he sort of planted some seeds for these ideas. So while they were just hiring only me, which is always hard, I really sensed that I was. I didn't have to fight initially to get people to pay attention. Now there's been, you know, fights. Not fights, too strong a word. Like there's been things. You have to still prove it. But, like, it was a welcome thing. I didn't feel like I was going to immediately be on the defensive. And I just don't like playing, playing that politics. I never really have. So the environment was set up and then the particular role just. It felt like they were hiring Jeff Chrysler, not they were hiring a banker who knew something about behavioral science. And again, people ask career advice. I'm like, I got lucky, right? So I sit in the wealth management space, right? Financial planning, wealth strategy, as opposed to like retailer credit cards. So it's giving people advice. And where I was hired in the organization, they were not looking for like a PhD data scientist to come in and run AB testing. They interviewed some PhDs. Their culture, where they sit is more about sharing ideas, communicating, being able to explain things both externally and internally. And just like they, they obviously value the science, but like, initially they. They wanted someone that has more of that skill set, which fit me. I've overcome my imposter syndrome enough to say, like, I'm a fairly decent communicator about ideas. So I'm seeing that that's what they wanted was good. I didn't feel like I was gonna have to share. I feel. I felt like I could lean into my strengths as opposed to trying to learn something new. And that is sort of how it's played out. And it just, it felt to me that was the big thing. Like, I've never in any of. Stop. Along the way, I've rejected, like, I didn't do law. I practiced in a law firm for summer, got the big law firm job offer at the Big thing. And I was like, I'm not going to be me. So that certainly would attracted me to it and then just sticking there like, you know, I had plenty of stereotypes about banking world and for the most part they have not proven true. I mean like in any industry there's people that fit a stereotype. But most of the people that I work with are, you know, the financial advisors. They're there because they want to help people. Yeah, they also get paid nicely. But like they, they meet with their clients who have trouble and whether that's a client with $100 million or $100, like they still have choices to make and they still want to raise kids that aren't jerks and they still want to provide a safe and secure future. And it's been great. It's been really rewarding and you know, it's a, it's a good organization. Not without flaws. One thing that always I chuckle about thinking about this career thing still is, you know, there's office politics, if you will, everywhere. But coming out of show business, it's nothing. You know, it's like show business for constant like self promotion and who do you know and like facts and all this like drama and I couldn't stand it and like at least in the world I am now. It's like, are you competent at your job? That's the first step. Then you can do it. Whereas show business is not always.

Definitely. It's always good to have the context and different perspectives and things. I love that. And silver lining. I think it's always just fun to look back on what we've done. And so it sounds like you do a lot of work behind the scenes like you're saying with the advisors versus working directly with the, the clients. Right. But have you had any specific areas of what you're able to say, anything of where you've used behavioral science in a way that's helped people?

So I mean the practice is built and I want to credit Charlotte Blank. Do you know Charlotte?

Not personally.

Yeah, well, Charlotte Blank, she was chief behavioral officer at a company called Merits, which is the parent company of People Science. And I want to credit her for this Planting the seed in my head is that she built and then I am now built a similar practice at JPMorgan which is there's client engagement. I call mine advisor empowerment and then financial innovation. Financial innovation is what I think most people think of more what behavioral science is. Right. Doing the research, the data, the testing and all that. Advisor empowerment is education, internal sort of helping our Team understand their own biases, understand potential client biases and ways to, like, reframe it and think about things to help clients reach their goals. Right. The classic you want to sell high, buy low. But because of various, you know, emotions and things, people tend to start panicking and selling. So how can we coach our clients? And then there's the client engagement, which might be articles or I do do some meetings or events where it's just like. It's almost like I did a people science. It's like here, this is just a different way to think about your financial decisions. Like, this is what we're all sort of doing. And, you know, it's not a silver bullet, but it's useful to think, you know, you're. You have a concentrated position. Like 80% of your portfolio is in Apple stock. And. And I'm not supposed to name specific companies. So let's say Apple stock, whatever.

ABC.

Exactly. You're an ABC Corp. 80% ABC. And, you know, you should diversify, but you have a hard time doing it. I can tell you in an article or maybe an event, hey, this is, you know, sunk cost fallacy, or it's an endowment effect. Now, is that practicing behavioral science? No. Right. But I have seen that people just like that different perspective, and sometimes it helps them get sort of unstuck the client. I, when I joined, I had a hard time at first saying or accepting going to a client meeting because I'm not a therapist. Right. That's not what we do. We don't, like, look at one person and say, do this. We look at, like, a vast number of people and look at what's our p. Whatever. And our, you know, how. What's our. It's research. But I have seen that people appreciate hearing sometimes putting a name on the stuff they feel. Right. Like, somebody always, like, loves shopping and buying stuff on sale. And they love saying, you know, I saved $40 when they know they didn't save $40. And sometimes just hearing like, you're not saving $40, it makes them feel a little better and able to, like, think about their own choices.

Right? Yeah. Being able to name and label things that even just like when I work with clients a lot and we talk about that, just creating that common language to know that this has a name, it's a thing, it's something that's been researched. I think there is a lot of comfort in that. I always love that. Sam Tatum, he has his book Evolutionary Ideas, which I absolutely adore. Such a great book. And he talks about the Idea of a banana. And if you don't have a word for it and you're saying, hey, can you hand me that like yellow, like long breakfast staple of a thing, it's a really weird thing to ask for. Whereas you can just say, hey, can I have that banana? It's very different when people know the word helps you move along faster.

And it's very true. I mean one thing I take pride at when you think about that internal sort of advisor or internal training is seeing other people use some of the language now like regularly. It's. And it just, it helps move, helps nudge the thing along. One of my biggest challenges, I think it's probably true for anyone. Going from more of like a consultant type role to being in a big organization is like downshifting my time horizon. Like it's, it's great. The potential impact, as I said, is massive. But things move slow and I'm used to like you come in for three hours or three weeks and get it done. Whereas now like I said, I'm at three years and I've, I've saved everybody, I've solved everything.

You've done it. Well. I also wanted to ask, you did mention a little bit on the data side of things. Things and of course with financial institutions, knowing I have a background in that space too. There's a lot of data around there. There is I'm sure stuff happening with a bunch of AI, machine learning and this like question and intersection of behavioral science data AI. Do you have any thoughts on as people are thinking about how these things come together or, or don't that they should be thinking about?

I do and like all these things. This is my opinion, not any institution I'm associated with. And we get asked this, I get asked this a lot and I think it's fascinating. There's a couple things. I think that if AI is considered another tool, I think it can be a wonderful tool. If it becomes like a dispositive decision maker, that's when I think there's challenges. In other words, if AI can help a doctor diagnose something quickly, but that diagnosis is not like the official then medication and treatment, but it's like helps that person save some time and mental energy. That's awesome. It's when it goes to the next step, like for instance, let's say in portfolio management for investments, if it helps the advisor or the client, like get a better sense of some of the options and make it more clear, wonderful. But if it just does it for them, it bothers me. It's like when people ask about, I'm sure you've been asked about creating Personas, right? Or, you know, personal. Like Personas are a great start to sort of understand the type of people, but it's not dispositive, right? Just because I'm whatever I J, N, Q. I don't know if that's a thing, you know, I mean, like, just because I'm sort of type doesn't mean every decision I make, every decision is going to be that. Right. There are times when I do things differently. So I think that sort of in one way illustrates the sort of promise and the danger. I think the promise is that it can process stuff so much faster than we can. The danger is that if we give it that final step of not free will is too big and theoretical, but that final step. The other area that I think is more interesting and probably will have more impact going forward is how do we people interact with AI because we bring our biases to that interaction itself. The doctor. Is there a doctor that is super excited to embrace AI and maybe overweight the AI outcome of the diagnosis? Is there one? That is what old school and like, it like inherently rejects the AI diagnosis because I just think it's going to be wrong. And like all those biases, to me seems like there's more potential for behavioral science to think about that interaction point, like how we use AI, than what AI itself does. And I don't have any answers to any of that as much as, you know, even if I just watch the discourse, if you will, the people that are like, this is going to save the universe versus this is going to destroy the universe. They can each be in the same situation and just have vastly different reactions. And that's to me where the fascinating sort of psychology is for sure.

Well, and I think too, you know, it's kind of at that core point we get in business all the time where the people who are creating the AI stuff and are going to be championing the, the chat bot or the trader or the whatever that the AI is going to be doing, right? The thing for the doctor, all these examples we'll just see, like, why everyone should adopt it and how it's so obvious and clear and like, yes, of course they're going to love it because of X, Y and Z. And if you don't take the time to step back and say, but, you know, but what if they don't. What about those who don't feel that way? You know, how can we be helping them along? You know you're setting yourself up for for something to not be well adopted that could actually be very useful if you put more thought into it. Yeah, well I of course always come into these with way more questions than we have time to discuss and ask. Is there anything that you wish I would have asked about or anything that you're really excited about as you look to forward forward things you don't get to talk about often? Anything like that?

No. If anything I think given what I imagine your audience has become will continue to be I just maintaining the optimism for this field and realistic expectations that I think it's not a silver just like we're talking about AI it's not a silver bullet but I've now seen it in a lot of different contexts where it's just another at a minimum it's another perspective that individuals, families, designers, organizations, governments. I could just have that perspective just acknowledge put a name to the fact like how do people feel about this policy, product, whatever. It's so useful. And I think that we're going through the natural sort of fits and starts of an emerging new field that adds value. Internal challenges, external challenges, misperceptions, successes like. Like I I realize I'm sitting in the cat bird seat at the head of behavioral science and the biggest bank in the world to say everything's great. But even as I try to like you know, check my own perspective, I, I do feel like it's hard for those that want to practice. It's hard to convince organization there there's hard stuff. But I think what we're doing and what we've continued to do to to bring this perspective is going to and and is already adding value. Like anything you got to sort of see the forest for the trees, he said as he's working on his fourth night of three hours sleep only because of various overworkedness.

Well, thank you for dedicating some of your day to us here. I know that I and the audience are very thankful for that for everyone who is now so excited to learn more and to follow you and maybe connect. You know, what's their what's their best path to do so as I've become.

A professional or believe it or not, LinkedIn. You can also just go to my like I have a website Jeff kreisler k r e-I s l e r.com which I don't really update much but it has links to all my stuff. But you can also just reach out like if you have a question, just give me some realize I'M only one person with two kids, so my time is tight. I do have a partner that supports the kids so much, you know what I'm saying? LinkedIn nowadays tends to be where I post stuff that's more focused on like the practice of behavioral science. God, I feel so dirty saying that.

What was the, what was the previous? What's the more acceptable. I feel like LinkedIn's My Jam. So what's the.

No, it's not unjam. I just used to like I used to. When I before this job when I was doing political comedy, I used to rant and rage on Twitter.

Ah.

Which is now locked. So go ahead out there. People looking to get me fired. Do your best. Forget it. You can't see any of my stuff anyway. And then I used to tour more doing stand up comedy for sure.

Yeah, that. I'm sure that's changed a bit, but. Well, thank you again, Jeff for joining me. It was delightful to finally have our our chat here. Our moment in the brainy business. Sun today, almost 400 episodes in.

Love it. Thank you.

Thank you again to Jeff Kreisler for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I am so delighted that after years of being connected, Jeff has now finally been on the show. We've talked about it for quite some time now and I'm really glad it's happened. And funny enough, while this episode was recorded, recorded several weeks in advance, if everything goes to plan, he and I will have finally met in person just before this episode comes out. Love when that happens. Let me tell you, the field of behavioral science is one that's full of such kind and generous people who I have had the pleasure to know and work with over the years. So many people I've met virtually some because they were fans of the show or my book series and reached out others because I'm fans of their work or just because we're connected on the socials. Being in the same space in groups and things, usually LinkedIn, but not always. What I found over the years is that this group is one where people want to help others. If you reach out and are genuinely kind and curious and interested and ask a thoughtful question, you will almost always get a kind, thoughtful response and I love that. I love how inviting this group is and I hope it stays that way as the field continues to grow and evolve. Of course, Jeff is no exception to that rule. I have found him to be a wonderful person over the years and I'm so glad he was able to join me to share about his background and wisdom here today. I hope it gave you some insight into what's possible as we close out the show. Don't forget about those show notes which include links to my top related past episodes and books including Jeff's, as well as ways to connect with him and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 397 and thank you again to Jeff Kreisler for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources visit the brainybusiness. Com.