409. Driving Microsoft Love Through Research and Strategy w/ Haley Swafford

Welcome to episode 409 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Hailey Swofford, market research manager at Microsoft.

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You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Haley Swofford. Hailey is a brand strategy market researcher at Microsoft with a passion for uncovering emotionally centered insights that diversify and strengthen traditional research approaches. In 2019, her newfound passion for market research led her to obtain a master's degree in marketing research from the University of Georgia. Some highlights of her professional career thus far include biometric innovation research for medical devices, mentoring early market research professionals, and leading the emotionality research and strategy within her team at Microsoft, which we're definitely talking about today. And her current role focuses on driving Microsoft love through research that enhances rational insights to be more humanistic and communicating this to teams across the business in a way that's energizing and approachable. And I can't wait for you to.

Hear all about it really quickly.

Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for everything, including my top related past episodes, articles and books, ways to connect with Hailey and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com409.

Now.

Let'S jump right in. Haley Swofford, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you. I am so excited to be here and very honored to be a guest on your podcast. Melina.

Thank you.

I'm so excited to have you as well. I know that in the intro I will have said at least a little bit about how we met at iiex North America in Austin, which at the time of recording was about a month ago. But for everyone who doesn't yet know you and the work you do, can you share a little bit about yourself and your background?

Absolutely. So I live in Atlanta, Georgia with my fiance and my two dogs. And outside of work, you can find me on the tennis court and running, hiking, hosting game nights, spending time with the people that that fill my cup. But on the work front, which is more the focus of today is I work at Microsoft as a market research manager. I've been there for about two and a half years now, but I started my market research and truly my professional career upon pursuing and completion of my master's degree in marketing research from the University of Georgia. That was in 2019-2020. And then I joined Johnson and Johnson Vision Care, which working on product innovation and packaging research for contact lenses, so med devices. And then I joined Microsoft. And at Microsoft, my role has, broadly speaking, been focused on understanding how we can drive Microsoft love as a company and helping scale that across our organization. In short.

For sure. Well, before we jump into that, I feel like I have to ask your episode is coming out very shortly after an episode with Kelly Clancy about her book Playing with Reality about how games shape intelligence and learning and all these things. So you mentioned hosting a game night. Do you have favorite go to games or or where? Do you have insights into where your love of games maybe comes from?

I love this question so much. So I grew up with my family playing games, card games, board game nights. That's pretty much what we did all of the time. And the friends that we've come to have strong relationships with and see often are also big game night people. And I would say some of our favorite games to play are Secret Hitler and codenames a game called Poetry for Neanderthals and honorable mention for Rummy 500, which is a card game.

Other than the word rummy. I definitely don't know any of those games and so I'll have to be looking them up. And I know we don't have enough game nights around here and the game nights we do have are with our littles and so and it's a lot of, you know, the virtual stuff now. So it's like they want to play Mario Party, right?

That's totally so yeah.

Which I mean who doesn't want to to play Mario Party, really?

Very true.

Awesome. Well a fun little anecdote there on on games, which is great. So you also then talked about why you're here, of course, which is this idea of love and Microsoft. And you did this as your talk at iex to which I of course, you know, came running over I'm sure after and but waited very patiently because you're very popular. Everybody wanted to talk to you after you did discussion there to see if you would come and talk about this on the show.

Can you share a little bit of.

A background in, you know, the intent of this project, you know, why it came about. You know, if you want to just do your Whole speech, I guess you could do that, but.

I'll try to limit it. But yes, essentially the story that I told At IIX was our journey of the past two and a half years summed up into, you know, the beautiful 15 to 20 minute presentation. But it all started when our CMO at the time actually got one of those emails that said, did you know your brand? And da da, da, da da, all these things. But the thesis of that was basically that Microsoft provides so much revenue and has very high sales, etc. All the things in terms of profit, but when it comes to our brand value, we're often second or third or maybe even lower on the list. So there was some discrepancy between those two things. And he did what a very good partner would do and wanted to have a discussion with our research team about that. And so the essence of all of that is that we decided or the what he was seeing was equal to what we saw in our data that we have been tracking through our brand health tracker for years, which is that Microsoft has a neutrality problem. And my role was basically created as a result of prioritizing Microsoft love for the business. And not to say that we hadn't been measuring it or keeping track of it, if you will, but this time we had true accountability, focus and support for looking at our brand at that highest level and having attention to it. And so when I came in to the team, I was tasked with this thing called emotionality and our team and my manager expressed, we've never had someone that, or the time really to go super deep on this subject and this topic and for our brand. And so I started scratching my head and also getting kind of nervous of the accountability that this, this project had or that I had for this project. And essentially the, the story at IEX dives deep into those insights and those learnings in my journey of understanding emotionality for Microsoft and what it means to then socialize that and scale it across our organization.

So for those who aren't familiar with, I mean, we can make a gander at the term emotionality and what that might mean. And I'm sure for you, like you said, having this be your entire role, there's a lot of depth and interest in there. How, how would you explain that to people what it means to be focused on emotionality both generally and then as it relates to the way that we interact with brands.

Absolutely. So thinking about emotionality generally is not just emotional components of how we think. To me it's the combination of both the functional and emotional components of us as humans, of how we operate with brands, of how we make decisions. So I'm sure most of us have heard the fact that 95% of our decisions are made with our emotions and our subconscious. And the 5%, the rational is what happens really after we've already made the decision is when we rationalize that. And so I like to draw that parallel. And when I think about what it means for brands, it's that we do lead with an emotional component and we focus on having a strong positive relationship with the brand. In summary, and for us at Microsoft, we have a long history and legacy of being a huge productivity and tech company that oftentimes sits in the background and is forgotten and that does not reflect a very emotional, positive relationship that's memorable also, might I add.

Mm, yeah, yeah, we definitely want to be remembered in, in these ways. I, I had written down. I'm going to be linking to. I always link to some, you know, top recommended books in the show notes for everyone. One of them I'm going to put in there is a book that's called Neuro Branding. And one of my favorite quotes in there from Peter Steidl is that a brand is a memory. And knowing that our brands are built up of all those little micro moments of how people are going to be relating to us and it builds this P. And so we need that consistency and knowing that the way that it's just like building upon itself. So that is a thing to know when you're integrating something like this, of trying to change, like you said, this neutrality problem at Microsoft to say if we want it so that we are beloved in a different way from our customers. It's not just a. And people love us now. Right. There's a lot of overcoming what has been in to shape the new reality and form enough memories where people can, you know, embrace the brand in this new way.

Absolutely. And we actually have a practice in our research and insights team here at Microsoft that we call peak moments. One of my colleagues, David Evans, runs that practice and it's highly tied to driving love and very similar to what you're saying, Melina, which is that we remember first of all, we have thousands of memories and most of them are neutral or in the gray, if you will, if you were to plot them out. And the ones that we want that are most memorable are the peaks, the highs and the pits, unfortunately, as well the lows. And so driving peak moments, driving positive, memorable and influential brand memories, to your point, is something that we focus on Formally on our team as well.

Oh, perfect. Well, I'm definitely, I'm so delighted. I don't know if you saw. You know, I'm always taking notes for different episodes and things to be linking to in the show, notes for everyone while we're talking. And so my episode on the peak end rule happening, we will be linking to that one in the show. Notes for sure for everyone who hasn't yet heard about that. So one of the things that I really thought was very powerful that you did in your talk is that you were asking, you know, this question about if we can actually love a brand. You know, if we can love and. And say, can we. Can you even love technology? And having people do a. A raise of hands, series of questions. Are you able to. And knowing it's been over a month, so potentially you don't remember the exact questions, but if you do, do you remember the questions that you ask people and can you be asking them for our audience to reflect on now?

Absolutely. So I think I could even start broadly of think of someone or something that you love. And I think we can all think of something or someone that we love. But where I started with the audience was raise your hand if you can think of any brands that you love and keep them raised. And now keep them raised if any of those brands might be technology brands. And then finally keep them raised if any of those brands might be Microsoft. And we see the hands lower, which is true. It was market research in real life, which reflects the data that we see in our brand health tracker and all of the research that we do, which is that we have a neutrality problem and we needed to understand how we could drive a more emotional relationship with our brand because we've got the function down pat pretty much. And clearly there was something missing.

Right. And so we, we know at least a piece of the problem. Right. We want to not be in that neutral space anymore. And how did you settle on love? Right. So in this space of emotions and your space with emotionality, I'm guessing there was some debate of what emotion you might want to be tapping into for the brand. You know, was there anything else that was a high contender or was it very much we wanted to jump into love, and if so, why?

That is such a wonderful question. So we did extensive qualitative and quantitative research to understand the emotions that were powerful when it came to having a strong, positive relationship with a brand. And two of the really interesting insights were, one, that love may not always be the perfect word to describe the relationship with A brand, an ideal relationship with a brand. However, people would say, yeah, but we know what you mean. And we got enough of that to understand, okay, a productive amount of people understand what you say when it means to love a brand. So that was one of the moments that helped solidify. The other insight I want to speak to is some of those contenders that we tested and that was more on the quantitative side of running different structural equation models. We were wondering about love. We also saw opportunity with innovation and empowerment as well. But after running so many models, we love our data at Microsoft, we landed with love. It was the strongest model and it honestly was something that we hadn't shined too much light on before in a way that was focused and I think that was part of it too, was that we needed a renewed objective for the company to focus on, to put effort behind. Because it was pretty often that we focus on things like innovation and empowerment. It's in our mission statement for Microsoft. And so having love, turning a new leaf, if you will, was a huge opportunity. And that's pretty much how we landed on it or some of those things that I just spoke about.

Well, and like you're saying, I mean innovation, I mean it definitely doesn't tap into any sort of emotionality, right. As far as empowered sort of. Right. Like I can feel empowered, but not in a way that is as relating it back to the brand in a way that love does. And so with that love, does that then help with the idea of wanting to, to share? Is it about loyalty? Is like what's the, the root value that you see in that approach?

There's really two big pieces to love that we've identified. One is a sense of identity with a brand. Being able to see oneself quite literally in a brand. Which we have a really cool piece of neuroscience that tells us when people who love a brand look in the mirror, the same part of their brain lights up when they're looking at themselves for when they love a brand. However, that's a different part of the brain that lights up when people look at family and friends that they love. So when we talk about loving a brand truly and the concept of identity, it really is about seeing yourself in a brand. A brand that helps you express who you are, a brand that represents you, a brand that is there for you along your journey. The other part to love that we've identified is trust. A little bit more intuitive, a little bit more self explanatory. And Microsoft runs on trust again. That's something we had been focused on for so long and we'll always continue to do so. And seeing those two things come to fruition in our Microsoft brand love model was really, really cool. And there's additional layers to identity and trust that are represented by perceptions. One of them for identity being simplifies technology for people. Another one being helps me feel connected on the trust side. A couple of those are has secure products and services and Microsoft will do the right thing.

Yeah. And it's so key that love and trust go together. And I love that aspect too of being able to see it's like that the brand is of me. Right. Like this is me versus like something I would surround myself with. Like you say that identity pieces is really helpful as brands look at ways that they can be tapping into that identity piece. And, and thank you for sharing some of those insights. So you, you talked about doing qualitative and quantitative research on your own, right? Of course. And it sounds like you also had some extensive literature review potentially going in and looking at existing research and, and things that are out there. Can you share a little bit about what your process and approaches on that type of literature review and do you have any sor. Go to source when you're. If you have some sort of a question to see what already exists to shape some of your hypotheses or whatever?

Absolutely. So going back to when I first started at Microsoft, you know, I knew little to nothing compared to the members on my team, compared to the 85 to 90 of us that sit on the centralized research and insights team at Microsoft. So I have to say when I was tasked with emotionality, that was one of the first things that I did was pick everyone's brains, especially on my team, understand what do we have available, where do we typically go, what do we typically do? And that was part of my desk research. Another part of my desk research was of course doing my own literature review. So from sources like Work Arf AMA to read up on having emotional relationships with brand, loving a brand, emotions that are important to drive strong brand relationships. And after doing all of that desk research, I then moved on to forming those hypotheses about driving love and starting to interview and talk to many different partners and suppliers. And this was the really fun part because again, similar approach. I got to talk to many suppliers that we work with already at Microsoft and we'd establish relationships with. But then I went to other people in my market research community to get recommendations from them as well as just did my own searching, you know, quite literally going through many, many pages Binging different suppliers who have and do emotive research. Then from there on out, I at least had researched over 25 different partners, both current and new to Microsoft. And I ended up with about 12 official proposals on this thing we're calling emotionality and what it means to understand and drive love for our brand. And from those 12, I ended up making a big deck full of recommendations and what we should do and criteria to establish. And two of the slides that were the most powerful in that entire deck was one, what I learned throughout the process, and two, my very clear evaluation criteria plotted against each partner that I had evaluated and that I was proposing to move forward for a pilot stage. And so we then selected a few pilot partners and did the research. And I know we'll probably get deeper into that, but that was ultimately the process, and bringing people and my team along on the journey was a huge part of that.

Yeah, well, before we get into the research, just that little piece there where you were saying it was really powerful to be able to have some criteria that you could then communicate clearly to people on the other side to get your recommendation through. Right. Because even though you've been invested in this for a long time, I'm sure there are many people listening who have been tasked with a project and that moment comes that they go to pitch it and it doesn't go anywhere. And so what would you say as far as thinking about that clear insight into the pitch, if you were just to give someone a tip of how, how you think maybe you were successful in that process, something they could learn?

Absolutely. So upfront, having a very clear, simple, straightforward objective, not only of the entire process, but for that specific call in the moment, it's so easy to get distracted. But clearly, defining both of those objectives was crucial to the success and the focus of our team and being able to make that decision and then again, sharing the lessons learned. Because it was oftentimes I would go away, you know, for days at a time and do my own research and have my own calls with different suppliers learning different things. So showing them up front, what I learned throughout this process, in terms of suppliers needing to have thought leadership, there's many ways you can define love, but at the end of the day, what was important is that it came down to both a functional and emotional component, as well as both your rational and your more subconscious layer. And then the proof points like, hey, can they actually do this? Can they walk the walk of the talk that they're talking? And then when it came to those pieces of selection Criteria. Some of the things that I focused in on to evaluate suppliers on were their creativity, their capabilities for audiences. Because at Microsoft we focus on, of course, the general population, but also very technical commercial audiences that were important for them to be able to do research with and to capture in research, as well as the sense of partnership. I got from them their knowledge of our business, the potential to scale something like this, knowing that we're trying to apply this and bring this to hundreds of thousands of employees at Microsoft and their capability in different markets as well.

Wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing those insights. I know they will be very valuable for many that are listening. Let's talk about the research. Right, Roll right in. Keep on with the story. What came next?

One of the partners that we move forward with in our pilot, if you will, which now we've done, I believe, four projects with them, so certainly moved from pilot to true partnership phase, which was awesome. But that's a supplier called BrandTrust and they leverage a technique that they call emotional inquiry, which is essentially having people share their most memorable experiences with a brand. First starting broad and then going deeper and getting more narrow into our focus to then aggregate all of those things to say these are the components and emotions you need to drive in order to maintain and continue having a positive relationship that flourishes with a brand. So we started with the general population first. It felt a bit more approachable to talk to the gen pop about emotions and memorable moments with a brand, at least compared to some of the more technical audiences that we focus on at Microsoft. And it helped us get sort of a lay of the land and build the foundation of those emotions that people talked about. And that research was so cool and so different. And we got to be let in on so much more of the process, specifically the analysis pieces with the moderators. That was very eye opening and it was really cool to be a part of that and not feel so in the dark during analysis and just see all of the pieces really come together. And after we did that, we got some amazing learnings. And one of the things that we came back to was our brand love model. And we wanted to organize the learnings and anchor them by the model because that was another big part of the process was repetition and showing people the model and continuing to contextualize research learnings with our brand love model so that it felt like one cohesive source of information and learnings. Then we moved on to commercial audiences and this was more challenging and even more rewarding for someone like me as a newer employee leading Commercial research at Microsoft for the first time. And it took a lot of upfront work and bringing our commercial colleagues along the journey, making sure that there were real case studies and proof points of brand trust, being able to capture these technical audiences, as well as getting their methodology and their approach to work with technical audiences. Because most of the time, if you're talking about Microsoft or our competitors in research with developers or IT decision makers or business roles, it's about things like the partnership and licensing and products like Azure and gcp, et cetera. But this time we were taking a hard left turn and just asking them to sit down and close their eyes and think about their most fond vivid memory of Microsoft, which is quite different. And I will say it was very successful. And bringing those colleagues along on that journey was super rewarding. And they provided so much expertise that I couldn't have provided on my own. So that upfront part of bringing them along and making connections and establishing trust between brand trust and those commercial colleagues was super important. And then bringing all the insights together. Because one part about focusing on love at Microsoft meant that we were taking a human approach. So that meant that we were looking at people holistically, not just identifying them by the way that we measure them in research as someone in Gen pop, as a Gen Z or as a developer because. Or a gamer, because people can hold many of those roles or those identities at the same time. And so we brought those pieces of research together. Having the continuity of BrandTrust doing them both as well was super, super helpful too.

And so in that process, then, you know, you're gathering all the research and seeing where did you like, embrace the kind of similarities between all those identities to try and find a unifying message that can work for everyone? Or is it more saying, okay, actually, you know, on this commercial side we're going to do this, and then in more public facing, you know, Gen Pop messaging, we're going to go this way. You know, what did you learn and what were you able to do with that, that research?

Great question, both honestly, but when it comes to our Microsoft love model, we had already validated that among many different audiences, both Gen pop and commercial, before we stepped into this research. We knew at our foundation, at our baseline, that people in general, humans have the capability to love our brand. And we knew the key emotions we needed to drive to do that. But we needed more depth underneath all of those. We needed to dimensionalize them to make it more relevant for people who do focus on developers versus those who focus on Gen pop. And we needed to also understand the differences by products at Microsoft. And so that research helped us expand the learnings to say yes, simplifying technology for anyone is so relevant when it comes to making their lives better and them identifying being able to identify with our brand and therefore love us. But if you blow out simplifies technology for me, there are specific components that are more are going to resonate more with different people and audiences. So again, it was both the model was is all human and then each of the components has parts that are applicable applicable to audiences that people care about and products as well.

And so potentially this is kind of in that underlying where you've mentioned the brand love model. I remember a slide and of course where I'm watching your talk, but it was revealing kind of four pieces I think around a person it might be that that was the brand love model. But whether and I think just even there were you talking about this understanding and simplifying technology and that it's hard to love something that we don't comprehend or fully understand. Hopefully I'm giving enough context for you to know what I'm asking about when I'm trying to remember something from two months ago. Okay, great. All right, you take it from here.

Yeah, absolutely. So the slide I believe you're referencing is certainly our model and we're not able to reveal all of the key emotions and perceptions of course that drive Microsoft love. But continuing with the theme of simplifies technology at its highest level, that is that people can't love something if they don't understand it. And oftentimes technology is in tension with people being able to understand things and therefore gets in the way of them being able to accomplish things, whether it be write code, write a paper, send an email, make a presentation. And we as Microsoft need to be more simple. And that comes to life in ways like providing a cognitive ease, especially for commercial audiences. They have so many decisions to make. Their jobs are often very high risk but high reward. So being able to help alleviate that for them. Another component of that is driving a feeling of confidence for people when they are operating our technology and having a partnership with our brands that also comes to life through innovation and people not feeling left behind when it comes to innovation, which is so relevant right now in our world of AI. And then of course there are the components like reducing friction so that technology feels more natural for people as well as closing the gap on convenience and making it feel more accessible to people. So being able to have that depth of learnings for all of the Components of our model is how we really got to actionability for people in the organization to actually make love a part of the everyday work that they do in conjunction with their business goals.

Oh yes. Okay. So this is where of course my next line of questioning was going to come anyway. And knowing you probably can't share all the things, but as we think about making things actionable, which is all of what we talk about here at the brainy business, this like you know, coming out of the, the research, whether it's academic or your own, to then go do something with it, to embrace it. It sounds like from what I've been hearing in the discussion, you know, you were looking at ways to, to shape the, the message and finding what's important for each team of how they can be thinking about love at Microsoft if they're focusing on like if they're an Xbox versus you know, like you said, the more commercial side or, or what happens to be there and then, you know, I'm guessing too in that outward facing marketing versus internal communication, but needing this to be, you know, a thread that can tie everything together. What can you share about making this all actionable and moving beyond just that state of cool things we learned?

Absolutely. So again, framing the learnings to our source of truth, which was our model was so, so, so important. And the amount of sheer repetition that's needed for people to really remember something and then therefore be able to implement it was way more than we ever even thought. And I've done more than 40 presentations on what it means to drive love for teams across Microsoft and that showed a true need for scalability. So another thing that I can share that our team has been working on are workshops with external partners creating different modules of learning of our foundational insights as well as activities and exercises that really do allow people to roll up their sleeves and bring in the current projects that they're working on or the current things they're going to be working on and understanding how to put love into that as well as a component of it where it can be both beneficial for Microsoft and for the specific unique business goals that they focus on as well, whether that be at an audience level, product level, etc. And those workshops have been really helpful for people to more deeply understand what it means to drive love for the business. And also having top down support, quite frankly is super, super helpful. It drives accountability, it continues to drive focus. We have a new CMO since the first evolution of Love, if you will, and he continues to emphasize its priority and specifically the Priority of driving love, of driving an emotional relationship with Microsoft in the context of AI as well. So those are some of the pieces that have helped bring us to actionability.

Perfect. Well for you and yourself and maybe across Microsoft. But what are you most excited about as you look to the future? If you could work on anything, what would you be interested in researching and tackling next?

Wow, that is a big, big question. A very good question. I think that some of the most exciting things that we've been getting into lately is more learning about everything that's happening in the business and all of the ways that we can bring love into that. So some examples are again the workshops, those have been so fascinating to formalize the intake process and therefore we get to learn so much about the team before we even meet with them and have a workshop with them so that we make sure we've curated all of the content to be relevant. That's been super, super fun as well as I'm working on a project where we are basically prompt engineering using all of these emotionality learnings to help generate more emotive copy for different things that people work on at Microsoft, both internal and external facing. So that has been really cool to bring AI into these types of insights and learnings together. And then finally going along with the idea of actionability and scalability. I'm working on a specific project right now that is going to continue to be valuable in the future which is getting a real like placement tear sheet concept for people in our business to have as a one slider if you will, that they can say here's step one, what do I need to do in order to get to step five, which is ultimately like the shared Microsoft and business goals. So getting really tactical about those steps has been really fun and made my brain think in a different way as well.

Awesome. Well I love that and look forward to of course hearing about all of you, what you know, what's shareable in these sorts of things over time. So for everyone who is I'm sure so excited from, from learning about this that wants to, to follow you and to connect and whatnot, you know what's sort of their next best path to get connected to you.

I would love to talk to anyone who wants to talk about love and these challenges within a business and what it means to have change management. I'm reachable via LinkedIn and then we can have a conversation from there and I'd be happy to talk live with anyone.

Perfect. We will put a link in the show notes to make it easy for everyone to go find you on LinkedIn. And thank you again Haley for joining me today. I loved learning about Microsoft. Love with you today.

Thank you so much for having me. This was awesome.

Thank you again to Haley Swafford for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I absolutely adore whenever we get to have a comprehensive project conversation like this, from problem identification and research, literature review and insights to application, I think that is just so informative for you listening because it gives that peek behind the curtain. You can start to see how this experience ties in with your own projects and find spots where you might be able to start incorporating this yourself.

And I really love when we get.

To dig into the nuance of specific word choices and how two similar things can get to completely different places and realizing like in this case, that love makes the difference they wanted at Microsoft so they can go all in on the that and not something similar that wouldn't have the same impact because they know and understand why when it comes to making your brand a part of someone's identity. Something I talk a lot about in my book the Truth About Pricing, Love sounds like a great place to start. Easier said than done. Perhaps you can tell from this story at Microsoft. It is a lot of work and dedication to make it a reality, but it's so worth it when you get it right. As we close out the show, don't forget about those show notes, which include links to my top related past episodes and books, ways to connect with myself and Haley and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 409 and thank you again to Haley Swofford for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You won't want to miss it. Until then. Thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

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