411. Behavioral Science in Action: From TEDx Talks to Real-World Change with Jordan Bridger

Welcome to episode 411 of the Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Jordan Bridger. Ready?

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You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Palmer, hello. Hello, everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Jordan Bridger. Jordan is a behavioral scientist, social psychologist, comedian and speaker who has spoken on four different TEDx stages, exploring the details of why we do the weird things we do as humans. Jordan is also a lecturer, rock climber, author, and obsessed with all things pumpkin spice latte pay year round.

Really quickly, before we get into the.

Conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for everything, including my top related past episodes and books, a timestamp.

Summary of the episode, ways to get.

In touch with myself and Jordan and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com411. Now let's jump right in. Jordan Bridger, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you, Lena. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for the hospitality and looking forward to the conversation.

Yes. I'm so delighted you're here. It has been, I feel like I've had a couple recently where it's very much in the like years in the making that we've known each other slash of each other for what feels like forever and then we're finally able to have the conversation. And I've always wanted to have you on the show and I'm glad that today is the day we're making it happen. So for those who don't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Yes. Well, thank you again. I really appreciate it. So my name is Jordan Bridger. I am a behavioral scientist and a social psychologist and I'm trained in neuroscience with a focus on linguistic neuroscience as well. But most of my focus within the field of behavioral science is actually on the social psychology side, so and applied psychology. And when I say that, meaning I'm not in a lab somewhere or I'm not in there somewhere, like writing up an academic article, I tend to be on the ground a lot with people, with groups, working for governments. I've had the opportunity to work with huge organizations like the United Nations, Los Angeles film companies, global NGOs. You know, one of the experiences I've had was working with the city of Vancouver. I talked about that in one of my TEDx talks, and that was a really cool experience. But yeah, I mean, that's kind of me in a nutshell. I also do stand up. I'm a rock climber, all of that good stuff. I feel like I'm on a dating show right now. But those are the things that I'm up to, you know, in terms of the human side, rather than. Here's the title of everything. I'm really big on names and I'm really big on humanizing everything. So, yeah, that's a little bit about me.

I love that. Well, I. So I keyed it. There are a lot of things I want to follow up on. This always happens. And I told you going into this, I feel like I can just say, you just talk for 45 minutes and we'll. I'll see you on the other side. Right? And it would have been. Yeah, well, it would be great. One of the things that I really picked up on when you were just giving that intro there is linguistic neuroscience, right. So I am all in on cognitive semiotics and metaphor and word choice and don't get to talk about it enough because I want to talk about it all the time. So I would love to hear some more about linguistic neuroscience. And whether in names of things or people or any of that research and stuff you would want to talk about, I think could be really interesting.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, so, I mean, my, my understanding of linguistic neuroscience as it pertains to the training I went through was actually ironically focused more on semiotics and what. What semiotics and symbols do to the brain and all of the different strands of semiotics. So you have ethical semiotics, existential semiotics. Like, you can just keep going through the library of the different types of semiotics that are out there, right? Academic semiotics. And so it's just basically a contextualization of symbols and their meanings, you know, and their hyper dependence on the actual context rather than this universalization of, hey, this is what this symbol means. And it means that. That everywhere. Like, for example, the word love, which obviously that means, like, if you're watching a rom com, it means something very different than if you're trying to go on a date with somebody and eventually marry them. Right. Because what you see in a rom com is very much and this is going to sound extremely judgmental, but I actually don't like Rom coms because they're. Because they define love in such a way that isn't realistic. And again, there's linguistic neuroscience saying, okay, well, we experience things through language, and language contours and shapes our experience of reality, right? One of the best quotes I've ever run across is actually in the work of the linguistic philosopher Julia Kristeva. And she says, you know, language exiles us from the object of our desire. Language exiles us from the object of our desire. And I'm going to use a really, really dumb example to make her point clear. For those of you who are like, I need to go and think about that for seven weeks. But is, you know, once we say, this is a phone, this is no longer. There is no other potential for this to be anything else other than a phone. Now, for those of you who are extremely logical, you're like, that's extremely dumb example, because, of course that's a phone, right? But what, what the example shows is that, you know, language in and of itself is very restrictive. So I always say this because I've lived in various different countries and I've learned various different languages, right? This is going to sound, again, judgmental, but to me, the most boring language in the world is English because we don't, we don't have that symbolic side, right? We, like, when we talk about a tree, we're thinking about an actual physical object with a tree. And there's a semiotics and the sign and the signification and all of these kinds of things that are related to that object. But when you, like, are going in the Middle east and they're like, well, a tree could also mean, like the mental metaphor of the human mind because of the roots and the thoughts and all this kind of stuff. And so there's a lot more poetry to language. And so for me, my interest in linguistic, like neuroscience, obviously started out of passion for language and meaning, because that's what we get. I mean, no matter what field you're in, you're always playing with meaning, right? And so, you know, in terms of what it does to the brain is even next level, because. And there's loads of research and I'm sure you even come across it is, you know, how the brain can't always dictate the difference between what you're saying or expressing versus if you're actually experiencing it. And I know people quote that all the time, but it's simply, to me, a beautiful piece of research. That shows. Okay, well, you know what? We should really be aware of our language. We should really be aware of it. Not to the point of, like, walking on eggshells, kind of like how we are now, but to the point of, like, okay, how I talk to somebody. Like, for example, since I do stand up, right. How I talk to a group and what I'm talking to them about matters. It isn't just, hey, I can be irresponsible with everything I want to say and just throw everything out and see what sticks. It's. I've got to treat language like an art.

Definitely. Well, and. And I mean, it is, right? In so many ways. And this is where, like, in storytelling, stand up. Like, you're saying, I. I. And I talk about it in terms of the concept of priming because it's the one that I think ties in so much, but also it's like foreshadowing in the story, Right. And being able to have a really good callback at some point. Right. That's fun for people to have that experience of feeling like you're kind of smart or where it feels like something is plausible because of this thing that you said, you know, 40 minutes ago that was just sort of offhanded, it felt like. But then you get to the end of the story and go, that had a reason why this happened. Or, you know, if we read really great novels, you know, or whatnot, that you get to remember that thing that happened three books ago, you know, sometimes that it makes its way back. I'm thinking of Harry Potter, you know, specifically there.

Oh, yes, right.

It's been a while since we've talked about Harry Potter on the show. Feels like it's the right time, right? Oh, Dobby.

Oh, I know. Poor Dobby.

So, but with all of that, I think it's. I teach a class on storytelling, creating better presentations. And I know you've talked quite a bit on storytelling as well. And I think this is such an important aspect.

Even.

Even just when we think about. It doesn't have to be doing standup comedy. It doesn't have to be doing a keynote. Right. This is. We do or writing a great novel. But when we think about a pitch in a business meeting or even just we're having a conversation and understanding what the other person needs to hear to be able to make a decision, understanding the thing that you say here, you know, at the beginning and how it can impact the choice they're going to make later is such a key piece of behavioral science for me and a big Area that I like to focus on.

Oh, that's super important because so I remember when I was doing marketing for the longest time and Content Marketing Institute came out with like this year long. It was, it was a long stretch of research and they. It was really cool because what they did is they segmented everybody. So, like, I mean, they got the baby boomers, they got, you know, Gen X, they got the millennials, they got Gen Z, and they did this basically test amongst them all in terms of branding and branding and storytelling. And what was very, very interesting is there was one common thread amongst all of the generations, even though we love to kind of like hyper focus on the sociology and the differences between these groups, which to me is really helpful.

If I'm honest, but agreed.

Yeah, no, it's problematic. Right? Um, and so you're like, okay, well, Gen Z. All right, but anyhow, sorry, that's a soapbox for a different time. But, but yeah, so basically what they did is they found the common thread is that especially with the millennials, actually Gen X to. To basically Gen Z was that, listen, we don't care about price tag anymore. Whereas the boomers were still in that. Now that made sense because again, and this comes back to the importance of context, right? The historical context, where it's okay, it's like World War II, like, or even pre World War II. And it's like, okay, we're in the middle of an economic depression and so on and so forth. And so they're like, okay, we gotta watch our pennies and all this kind of stuff. But what was really interesting is all of them had this common thread of, hey, we don't care about the price tag anymore. We want story. We want to know what drives you and your intrinsic motivators, you know, which to me, I was like, wow, that's actually really, really important, you know, for brands to realize is that people are in a space now where the price tag doesn't matter as much as feeling like they belong to something bigger than themselves.

As someone who wrote a book called the Truth About Pricing, in which the main thesis being the truth about Pricing is that, you know, pricing is not about the price. Hey, you know, like, that's kind of what we're all about. Yes. Yeah, for sure. I love that.

Awesome.

Well, okay. Thank you for taking that little journey with me. As we're talking a little bit about word choice, linguistics, and it just comes to so much of the. My favorite pieces of behavioral science, I would say, is in that. That little tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny change and being able to think whether, you know, we're looking at those, the ripple effects, the, the, you know, butterfly flaps its wings sort of deal, right? But if we, if, but when you start to unravel and be able to think about it and ask, you know, the question of, like, but why did that happen? What if we did this other thing and if we. Did we say something funny over here that we didn't even realize that's maybe making us really successful? Or is there something over here that we did that made this one flop when everything else went really well? You know, I just love to think about that sort of stuff.

Well, and I mean, I think, you know, all these kind of micro changes, right? Which is, I mean, that's, that's the heartbeat of behavioral science, right? I mean, like, it's, it's all of the, I won't say macro versus micro, but you know, even, even in human identity, which is another area, it's really cool. So the, the company I'm the CEO of, we just got accredited with apa, and one of the areas that we got accredited was in identity psychology.

And so congratulations.

When it comes to change, and this is obviously something I think that you're passionate about as well. Just seeing some of your stuff is understanding that, you know, we, we kind of put so much pressure on ourselves as a cultural value, like, oh, you should change. And the change should be so drastic. It should be overnight, but in reality that causes more, way more stressed, way more eating of way too many Oreos late at night, turning yourself into a gremlin. Right? I mean, like, and so it's. Right. And it goes the way of, okay, I like more self control now. Right. And so now you're looking to extrinsic motivation and all of this kind of stuff, right? But when it comes to change, it's actually we find more, more of change as a process from within to without. And this is another area, by the way, that sometimes I think behavioral science, we focus so much on changing the outward environment that we forget the importance of the inward environment. And so this is one of the areas that I focus on. It's like, okay, well, let's talk about the inner world, because the inner world will impact and influence the outer world. And so when you're talking about change, you know, it's got to be holistic, right? And so I remember working with an organization during COVID and they were like, okay, well, hey, you're a behavioral scientist. And you know, they took the stereotype and ran with it. And I Was like, yeah, I'm not the one who just. Let's, let's do some environmental changes. It's. We gotta go inside first. Like, what are the belief systems? What are the ideologies? What are the values? And not just your values. What are the values around you? What are the values around the city you live in? What are the. So it's, it's kind of like looking at the idea of change, obviously. Yes. From the inside out, but also looking at change as kind of like a concentric circle.

Right? Yeah. And so let's, let's dig in on that a little bit more. And so I know that in all the times when we work with clients, we can't always share specifics, be it, you know, names of the clients or the specific work you. That you were doing. But, you know, to. I make an argument that I think every, you know, every kind of these micro moments and like, when we're working with our teams that, like, as a manager, I think a key. A key, if not the main role that managers have is. Is navigating and helping their teams and employees to navigate through change. Right. So we're constantly dealing with ripples of change that has already happened. Right. Is impacting this moment. We're either. And we're in the midst of at least one change, probably in that moment, and we're preparing for change yet to come. Right. So if we know that something's coming in six months, how can we be helping our team to prepare for what they're going to need in the, you know, wake of all these varying ripples all the time? And so it sounds kind of lined up with what you're. You're talking about here. Right. As you're thinking about a problem for that client. So can you share and, you know, we can, you know, step aside from the specific work you were doing. But let's say if there. It sounds like similarly, if there's a type of problem you're presented with, do you have an example that you can share as you start to think about those change ripples and understanding what's happening in the belief systems? What are some questions you ask? How would you guide a client through that process? And why does that even matter?

Yeah. So I don't mind kind of giving you some of the context. I mean, it was during COVID I was working with a national hospital system. I say system because there's loads of them across America. And I worked with a neuroscience department there for about a year. And again, like, this was like, right in the height Right. The height of COVID And it was kind of sad because their hospital had made the news for a higher rate of staff suicide during this time. It was just. People were just totally exhausted, emotionally depleted. Right. And they just couldn't go anywhere and they didn't know what to do. And they actually kind of pinpointed that one of the areas was this neuroscience department, department of this particular hospital group. And what was very interesting is we spent the first, I want to say the first two to three months literally not doing anything other than working with the staff and the higher up staff, like, as in the management. Right. So I don't know why I just went back to like being a four year old to hire up staff management, let's just use the word management.

So.

So the management was very interesting because they wanted help but they didn't want to change. So. And a lot of the change came from, well, I'm a doctor and I. And let me just be blunt with like here, like they had a God complex. It was like, I don't need to change and I can save the world. Right. And so, and what was very interesting is they were very restrictive initially towards any even external changes that we wanted to map out for them. And so we were like, okay, listen, if you're reaching out. And by the way, like this is. I got the connection through Jim Gaffigan. Yes, that one. And so he was doing a call out and he said, fellow comedians who are, you know, queued up to get in touch and I'll give you this, this email. And so we, we got in touch and you know, again, like, we started out doing like mindfulness for example, and, and that was a big hit. But then it got deeper and they said, okay, listen, we found out that you're behavioral scientist, can you help us? And so we started working and mapping out. And again, just back to what I was just saying, like there was a huge, huge subculture of, of this. We don't need your help, but we want it. Right? So there was this, there was this dichotomy the whole time up until I just kind of said, listen, if you're going to see change. And because my big argument here is we always talk about biases and being from, you know, like the environment or even from within to without. And we kind of almost don't, don't really focus on the fact that there's an environmental impact as well. But the environment isn't separate from the inner self. The environment is part of the inner self. Right. So again, for example, really Dumb example, if I'm afraid of heights, okay, I'm not going to jump out of a plane. Inner to outer, right? So internal to external. And so once they got on board, it was amazing. I mean, we did like, amazing things in terms of incremental change. And we got through the door, like I said, through mindfulness and meditation and so on. And they were huge on that. So much so that they were actually willing to gouge out some of their storage areas. Right. And then turn those into mindfulness rooms. And then they ended up. This is really cool. They ended up buying old, old ATM kiosks and they created member. Well, this is something that we worked with them on. We incentivize their behavior. So every time they took breaks, every time they actually ended up taking, you know, mental health breaks, that's just what we called them. Any of the staff, they ended up accruing more time off or they ended up accruing some sort of gift of their choice. Right. I mean, some of them, even something as simple as like, hey, here's a $50 gift card to Starbucks. Who doesn't like Starbucks? So, you know, anything along those lines that, you know, gave them a little bit of self efficiency, but also the idea of like, hey, I'm getting my autonomy back. Like, I don't feel like I'm so overwhelmed by this scenario. But so in terms of the way in which we incrementally did this was that we had to honestly first go through the mental door first and then go through the actual. Okay, this is the. These are the environmental changes that we need to seek out.

Hmm. Well, and it's an interesting aspect too, of like, okay, if I take a break, I get a break. Like, that doesn't seem.

But it was weird to them. They were like, what? Never thought of that.

And so how. So one is, you know, I get how that's coming into play. But I think to explain for people that are also listening, going, why would. Why would you want to be doing that as a business that doesn't seem like something that you want to be incentivizing. And then the other side of this, I think being for everyone listening. And I know for sure because I have this conversation all the time, who is listening and saying, I don't work at a hospital group. Maybe I do. But like, my bosses, the. The management I'm dealing with has a similar thing that they like to say. It's like the buzzword of the idea of wanting to change or think about human behavior. And I'm rooted so Much in the way I've always done things that I don't actually want it. That's where management might say they want a thing, but they don't actually want to. Like, I don't need to change, but you all should do something, right? So how did you break through that barrier? What's some advice you might have for those who are listening if they are thinking that, you know, they're ready to jot down notes so that they can work on this problem in helping, you know, others to see the light in that way for them to be making some great progress too.

So first and foremost, electric shock therapy was really huge for people. I'm kidding. But I mean, so. And I. Oh, this is great, by the way. I think there's a pattern here. So, you know, I do think coming back to language and, you know, language and space, you know, the idea of us being situated so like our, like, and this is more of a philosophical term, but our situatedness, as in those things around us that are always impacting us, sometimes that we're not even fully aware of. And so to me, like, people taking in, let's say that their manager has their own situatedness, right? And so maybe they have pressure from the board, maybe they have, you know, things that you're not fully aware of, and so taking those in, but at the same time being assertive enough that you can use language to speak their language, right? Because at the end of the day, like, even. Even here, right, We. We didn't grow up in the same family. We didn't grow up in the same environment. So I'm using words, and I'm assuming that you know exactly what I mean when I use them. But that isn't always the case, right? I mean, I mean, people always joke about marriage. And, you know, one of the biggest issues within marriage is communication and so on and so forth. I mean, for example, my wife is from Britain. I'm from Los Angeles. We still have. And I've been married like 15, 16 years almost, right? And we're still trying to figure out how to speak to each other. You know what I mean? And so the. The reason why I bring that up is because I think if people learn how to speak the language of their audience, as in your boss, where they're at, what situations they're in, what they're experiencing, even in their life, and this is something that I don't find enough of within our field as well. Like, people are like, no, this is like, we're very kind of tunnel vision where it's like we almost kind of remove the human element and we need to bring that back in and say, okay, this person is a human. They like things. They don't like things. Right. All of. So relate to them in such a way that you use language as a bridge rather than a barrier.

Someone who, as we are considering, you know, the hierarchical piece matters here. So for us, I would say as consultants, you know, coming in and being able to say, hey, you're paying me to be here. And you said you want the thing. So, like, maybe we do the thing. Right. You have a little bit of a different conversation than someone who is inside of an organization and wanting to have that upward change and to be able to show to a group. Whenever I teach about confirmation bias, focusing illusion, I made a note too about like fundamental attribution error. I think kind of comes into play, play in some of this too. But I always have someone who will say something along the lines of, oh my goodness, I'm so glad to be learning about confirmation bias. How can I show the people on my team that they're wrong and that they're dealing with them?

Not. Not me. Yeah.

How do I, I prove this thing right? To which say, okay, so first is like mirror up, right? We've got a thing we're going to work on. But for someone who's in an organization, and I know I would always say, you know, look at you. And I think this comes to some of that storytelling piece as well. Right. But do you have some. Go to questions that you use to help someone have that kind of breakthrough moment to say, oh, okay, I guess I can make a little bit of a change, or is there some sort of experience for them to recognize that, um, like you, you know, you'd mentioned that kind of God complex or whatnot, if we're trying to break through that and you know that there's a lot at stake if you work in the organization. Right. Of how you can help someone to see that there's some. A different way to look at things, think about things. Do you have any suggestions there for a specific question or experience that someone might be able to consider trying out themselves?

Yeah, no, I think that's a great question actually for questions is, you know, I think one of the things and it's kind of like we're almost trying to orchestrate epiphanies, right? We're trying to be like, okay, oh, wow, I didn't think of it that way. And most of the time is because people are locked within their own context, right? And so allowing people a different perspective and allowing the opportunity to explore. And this is something. And I'm sure you probably experienced this as well, but on the consultant side of things is when you go into workspaces, you know, sometimes there isn't that opportunity to explore. So then the person will enter their workspace and thinking, okay, I'm just here, I'm a cog on a wheel, and then I go home, right? And so to actually even allow a safe space to say, listen, what questions do you yourself have? Or what would you like to explore? Right? And so how do you see this working out? Okay, so yes, you have the hierarchy, but the hierarchy isn't and shouldn't be militant, right? In any kind of context. But let's just say, okay, we are trying to orchestrate some sort of awareness or, you know, opportunity to be aware. And so one of the questions that I tend to ask people is, you know, what do you want out of this? Whether it be a manager or whether it be an employee or hr, whoever I'm working with, right? Is what do you want? What are your intentions for? Like, why do you want me here? Like, that's first and foremost, right? What am I doing here? But then at the end of the day, great, I'm here to do something. But how willing are you to get there? Because at the end of the day, I could be here and I could be a shadow in the back of the room. Not in that creepy old guy sense, but I mean, like, right, but how willing are you? Because that's the flip side that I think you and I are even talking about here, off and on, right? Is you have these people who have a desire, like, they know that something needs to change, but they just don't want the mirror. And so it's like, okay, well, if you're not willing to change, and you're the one who's asking for change, it's that idea of embodying your own values, right? And so it's like, well, how can I help you as the consultant? Come side by side with you and help you embody those values? Because, you know, the whole idea of my messes, or the idea of us, you know, kicking on the mirror neurons, if they actually exist, right? And, you know, demonstrating to other people. So I really love this term, right? And so you were. You had asked me if there's an experience. So this is something that I try to do with almost everything, and I did. This worked out really well with the city of Vancouver. And so it's actually from Philosophy, and it's called heterotopia, okay? And so it's actually building out an experience for this change to happen. And it's from the work of the French philosopher Michel Foucault. Basically, his concept is he combines these two words, right? It's like heterogeneous and then utopia, right? Heterotopia. So it's taking all these kinds of concepts, all these different values, all these different belief systems, and saying, hey, how can we build something? But his argument is you can't build it from the outside, right? So again, I can't go in as the consultant and say, I know everything, which obviously they're paying you to do that. But what you're trying to show them is you already have everything, right? You already have the internal and external resources. You just don't know how to use them yet. Obviously, I wouldn't say it that way, right? But, you know, it's one of those things where you're kind of just demonstrating to them that they have everything at their kind of fingertips. They just need to become more aware and become more utilitarian with them. And so what his concept is is that you build the community that you want from within, right? And then that becomes the template. So you don't come from without. You don't say, this is wrong. That's what you should do, and that's what you shouldn't do. And oh, my gosh, and look at these people over here. Because all that does is it evokes more competition, especially because in the business world, people kind of almost use that as a metric, right? All right, how are they doing? How are we doing? Well, that isn't going to really work in the same way. What can work is that if you embody those values yourself and you begin getting a handful of influencers within your company and say, how can we build this kind of community that can show people from the inside out? Hey, this is how we can enact change, right? And yes, you can do the cheesy things where you're like, hey, here's a really cool, like, poster from the 90s that says, we love everybody. You know, if you're doing DEI or whatever. But, like, as. As cute as that is and as maybe necessary in terms of visual imaging and how our brain obviously goes to image making. That's. That. That's great. But people. People love to copy, people love to mimic, and that's how we learn, right? So that's. That's, to me, I think, a huge tool that I've seen almost work Every. Almost every time that I've. I've used it.

Hmm, fascinating.

Okay, so before we jump into the next question that I have, I want to as we put kind of bows on these. So from the, from the hospital group and or where you say this has worked kind of every time you used it, do you have any. And I know we don't always get the types of results where we like to say there was an X percent increase in Y or whatnot, but do you have anything as far as showing what it means to say that it worked if there was a, you know, what that value was for those clients?

Yeah, no, actually, it's funny that you say that because even though I'm not big on the metric side of things, we did have like a 47 increase. 47% increase. So almost half. Right. So for them, they were looking for like 20. They weren't even looking because their bar was so low. Because everybody was just so overstretched during COVID that they were like, we'll take anything Effy.

And a percent increase in what? In a happiness score or in a one self care.

So because I couldn't physically be there, we were basically teaching them how to auto nudge themselves. Right. And which I'm a big fan of. Right. So I'm kind of reducing the paternalism and saying how can I actually bring more awareness? So this actually kind of goes back to what you were just asking, you know, is, is training people in being aware of how to use, you know, self nudging and because again, one that builds the self efficacy side, like, hey, I can do this. You know what I mean? I don't need some expert to live my life for me. Right. I can actually enact all of these changes which are science backed. Right. And so, you know, my experience with them in terms of the 47% was that all of them got to a point of self confidence of like, okay, I can do this, I can deal with the stress. And we talked about reframing, you know, and all of that kind of good stuff. And, and the power behind that, by the way, is amazing, you know, in terms of reframing itself. But yeah, so I mean, so the 47% really does refer to the fact that we influence. Influenced that much of the neuroscience department into shifting their mindset. And the big win, if I'm honest with you, wasn't even the staff. It was, it was that that about 30% of that 47% were, was. Was management, which is where most of the change needed to happen. Right. And so yeah, that was, that was where we were like, okay, this is successful.

I love that. That's awesome. Okay, so as we are thoughtful to time and I always have all the questions, I feel like we've got a bit of a choose your own adventure moment which is always part of my favorite. Right like thing to do that you get to guide the conversations we said. Okay. So some of my notes I have from reading up on. So one is. Would be you mentioned in, in one of your TEDx talks you talk about this. If there's anything from the multiple TEDx's or something that you want to talk about there. There's something there. I love the Wy Coyote example from. I also have a note about AI and bots training that's in here. Something that's going on there. I know we've got a lot of questions about technology and behavioral science. So I think that would be a really interesting avenue. And I think that this also just like comedy and behavioral science is a way that we could go and in choose youe Own Adventure, if you want to talk about something else that's none of those things, you can do that too.

Woo hoo. Yeah. So I mean we could do the tech and beside stuff that sounds good. And then I'm sure we'll meander. So.

Yeah, always. All right. So go, you know, jump, whatever that means to you, you know.

Okay. So. Well, I think we have a very precarious relationship with technology anyways. I mean meaning humans in general. And. And this is, you know, one of the areas that I explored when I was sharing the second TEDx talk, which ironically was about education and how we've silenced children. And you know, that was more of anthropological kind of social, psychological deep dive into what education is and how it's become what it is. Which is again a way to silence kind of the imagination, silence the power of exploration. Right. Through repetition and so on and so forth. But I've always thought that with technology we always seem to be riding like on some sort of thin edge which is unnecessary. Right. Meaning you always have those who are afraid of the technological like advancements like that we're going through now again with AI for example. And so you, you'll have the fatalists, right. Or the, or like the apocalyptic like it's the end of the world and you know we're all going to die and it's going to be like Terminator. Right. Which you know, I'm not saying that we need to be naive, but at the same time that's probably about three to 500 years off, right? We're not talking about AI becoming aware tomorrow, you know what I mean? And there. But what I find is even the anthropology of the fear of technology to actually be very interesting. So you, you go back to these ancient, like, Middle Eastern metaphors, like for example, the, the Tower of Babel. And, and so that was a metaphor for like, oh my gosh, like the Babylonians, they have this new technology and it's called bricks. And what if they get a hold of this technology and they start building things in such a way that they separate everybody, right? And so you end up following that thread throughout history, you know, and people have. We, we tend to be binary in our responses rather than looking at it like from a multiple, like different, like variant angle. It's okay, well, it's either this or it's that. We don't. We. We've almost lost the art of nuance as the human race, even now, even today, across social. Right, it's. We, we need to embrace nuance. And so for me, when I talk about tech and its relationship with behavioral science, that's my first port of call. It's like, how are we embracing nuance here rather than, okay, we either vilify it or we worship it, you know what I mean? Like, we don't have to go that extreme. We can find some sort of nuanced third, third, fourth place, you know, but what I find so interesting is, you know, looking at all of the different ways in which technology is influencing behavior, but also how behavior is influencing technology, right? Because to me, for example, this isn't just a phone. This is an extension of myself, right? So this is an extension of who I am, where I'm at, my value system. All of those kinds of things are actually predicated on the fact that I'm using this as a way to communicate not just to others, but with, with myself. Like my notes, right? I have my text or like, for like doing stand up, for example, I'll use some sort of blank text area on my iPhone, right? And be like, okay, here's the joke here. And obviously it won't go into anybody. Or if it does, it'll be like target, you know, which they won't care anyway. So, you know, but this is. That. That's the other side that's very important, I think, is that we, we see technology as separate to us. And I think that's extremely dangerous because then you, you will run into the binary, right? You will run in. Well, that's either a villain or that's the hero. And so I don't know. And so then what happens is when we do that, we make ourselves the victim all along. So then you end up having like, oh my gosh, what if AI takes over the job force. Yeah, but what if it doesn't? What if it actually increases? Right, so this is what I mean. Like we need to ask different questions rather than just all out, just fear technology.

Yeah, agreed. I'm all about the, that nuance for one. My, my husband will laugh when he hears this because everything I like live in the land of nuance all the time and, and so often where it's, you know, he will ask a question that is very much like, this is a yes or no question. I just need the answer. And like, I can't, I can't do it. I.

Let me think about it.

I can appreciate years, I can appreciate why, why you feel like this is a yes or no. And let me explain why.

Yeah, it's like marital practice. Okay. Let's work on communication.

Right. And are we talking. If we talk about it in this context, then I would feel this way. And over here I would say this other thing. And I think that's such. I find amongst behavioral science and the. In the space, I think as we consider human behavior is so, it is so nuanced and there are so many things happening. It's never just one thing and it's never always going to be exactly the same. Which is what, you know, as we're putting a bow on our conversation in the episode. Right. And thinking about all these different aspects of context and knowing we can't ask everything. We can't possibly. If we were to wait until we knew everything before we were to act, we'll never get anything done. But we do need to put in some layer of thoughtfulness and questions and being able to understand who are we talking to? What's their background? What do they care about? What are we trying to get them to do? What are they doing now? Why would we care about this other thing? Why should they care about this thing? I love to ask, you know, if we only get one thing out of this moment, this interaction point, if it's only going to be one, what's the most important one? And then we can build around whatever that item is because if not, we end up trying to do way too much with. Right. So as you think about that, like you're saying this behavior and technology. So behavioral science and bots and AI, do you have any insights from projects that you're working on or things that you think are interesting for people. Whether. And it could be, you know, just as someone is looking to be incorporating, you know, technology into the work that they're doing or into their teams or if they're programming it, something for customer facing, do you have any thoughts of where people should be focusing attention?

Yes. Yeah. So I think that's a great question. And I think it's all about humanization. I mean, it's, it's, it's. How can I make sure I'm using technology? And that's fine, no worries, Go for it, run with it, but humanize everything. Because the greatest fear is it's gonna eradicate humans. So I think if we humanize it more and if we talk about it humanly, even using metaphorical language. Right. Even using personification language. Right. We're talking back to the use of, like, linguistics and trying to talk about it through a relatable, like a medium and try to understand that, okay, this is a tool and it's technology and it's about progress. It's not about regress, it's not about taking things away, it's about expanding, you know, and so this is one of the areas, you know, because I had the opportunity to train AI over like a year in behavioral science and psychology and, you know, philosophy, and when it dawned on me, like, midway through, I'm like, why are we so afraid of something that we ourselves are training? Because we're the ones who are training it. So if we're fearing them, we're fearing ourselves. Right? And so ultimately, at the end of the day, you know, if you want to use AI, know, it's, it's, it's a tool, and, and the way in which you want to use it is you want to make sure it can relate to whoever your consumer market is. You want to speak their language. So if that means you got to go and pay some sort of AI developer and some app developer, whatever the price tag is, just do that. Because at the end of the day, it's going to benefit you and them in the long run because they're going to feel like they're connecting. Because at the end of the day, humans want to connect. That's what we do. Right. We're these kind of like tribal people who absolutely love relationship. So if you remove that component, sorry to say, you're probably going to eventually fail. Right. But I think if you kind of almost fundamentally have this foundation of, okay, I want to use AI, but I also want to make sure people feel like it's a human and that it knows things that humans do rather than, hi, my name is, you know, robot or whatever it is. Right. You know, but actually name it, you know, give it, give it those things that the brain loves. Right? The brain loves personalization. I mean, it's a storytelling thing. So why not use it?

Love it. Love, love while. Do you have any, as we close out, do you have any go to from like I said, working with AI and training it and in this learning over a year, if someone is going to be looking to start using some prompts or they want to be asking thoughtful questions to have AI be helping them as a tool, do you have any go to prompts that you recommend or some tips? We'll just say for like content generation or anything else you're using it for that you think would be helpful for somebody to be prompting tools that already exist.

Yes. So one, how do I act respectful on a first date? I'm kidding. So I'm kidding. No. So when I think that you're, you're using prompts and it depends on what AI tool that you're using, obviously that, that matters and what its capabilities are. But you know, when you're trying to do it for content creation, I'll tell you something. So this is, you know, I always add the caveat, you know, make this sound relatable to this particular demographic. So it's never just, hey, I want you to create copy for a Canva or I want you to create like an Instagram friendly, you know, that to me doesn't work. And to me that's a flop. One, because you can tell, right? And then two, I also wouldn't 100% rely on AI meaning go in and edit it and you know, make it your own. But yeah, I mean, for, for me, my go to prompt is okay, here's my demographic, you know, and then I'll even add like whatever elements I want in terms of marketing, right? So I'll be like, okay, use tips and techniques from the Amazon Flywheel or whatever it is that is out there. Right? So it's like, okay, use, you know, loss aversion. So then you can use those things like from our field, right. For example, that, that, that's where it will really shine is when you like are, are very specific. And I find that sometimes you can tell like, I mean, I have, I have an email newsletter from somebody that I'm like, everything this person writes to me is 100% AI. And I'm like, I, I don't relate to you. So there's the unsubscribe. Right. And so because to me, it just doesn't make sense. But yeah, my go to prompts are who am I speaking to? That's to me is the most important one. And to make sure that you add that every single time.

Yeah, love that, love that, love that. Yes, I have found AI loves to use the word delve, which I think is so funny. And somebody I saw commented on it on LinkedIn and now I see it everywhere. And I always like, you're saying I. We use AI for some like first pass on stuff, for creating content off of a podcast episode to see what were the big things, themes, what are the things that it's using as a call out that I can then write a post about or, you know, edit a draft of something. But yes, AI really uses this word delve that no one seems to actually use. And so like, who taught you that this is a good word because. But it's a very quick. That you can say AI, right?

Yeah, no, exactly. You're like, hey, I know that. I mean, it sounds like a 1970s, like professor with crazy hair who's like lit in a lab somewhere. Let's delve into human behavior. Yeah.

No, no, no, I love it, love it, love it. Well, thank you so much for the conversation. We know that we can and likely will continue to chat over the days and years for hours on end. But we'll end it here for now, for the episode and for everyone who is so excited to learn more about you and connect and the work that you do. You know, what's their best path to do. So.

So I'm all over social. It depends on what you want. I have like different flavors per social, but basically it's just Jordan Bridger 58, because there's too many other Jordan Bridgers, so I had to do my height. So. Jordan Bridger, 58, across social. I'm very highly active on LinkedIn, so, you know, get in touch there as well. And I do have a website called wonder emporium.com so that's where we do all of the consultancy and all of that good stuff. So. And that is spelled weird, by the way, so I would probably have to leave that with Molina over here.

Yes. All right, well, you send that to me, which of course, you know, we have that. But we'll make sure we get the perfect link. It's in the show notes for everyone so that they can connect. And again, thank you so much for, for joining me on the show. It was delightful to chat with you today.

Yeah, thank you Molina. I really appreciate you. I love the conversation. I love how we connected. So thank you for your time today as well and thank you for the opportunity.

Thank you again to Jordan Bridger for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I always love being able.

To talk about the power of word.

Choice and how one simple change can make so much difference in where things end up. Metaphors, semiotics, linguistic neuroscience. What a delightful conversation, right? I also love that Jordan has been.

Able to get people who might otherwise.

Be really stuck in their ways to make changes in a way that is having positive impacts across a team and organization. It's great to see a real example of this in action like with the.

Hospital group we talked about today.

And I really love that this all started with comedy and Jordan's work in stand up. Humor and human behavior definitely go together even in really serious work, which is refreshing when you think about it. As we close out the show, don't forget about those show notes, which include links to my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in contact with Jordan and myself, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 411 and thank you again to Jordan Bridger for joining me on the show today.

It was a delight to chat with.

And learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it until then. Thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember, remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.