419. The Mentorship Mindset: Insights from Dr. Ruth Gotian

Welcome to episode 419 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Ruth Gotian, co author of the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation I'm joined by Ruth Gothen. Ruth is Chief Learning Officer, Associate professor of Education in Anesthesiology and former Assistant Dean for Mentoring at Weill Cornell Medicine. She is is a globally recognized expert in mentorship and leadership development. Hailed by Nature, Wall Street Journal and Columbia University as an expert in mentorship and leadership development, she was named a top 20 mentor. Worldwide Thinkers50 ranked her as the number one emerging management thinker in the world in 2021 and LinkedIn recognized her as a top voice in mentoring in 2023. A semifinalist for Forbes 50 over 50, Dr. Gotian is a prolific contributor to Harvard Business Review, Forbes and Psychology Today where she shares insights on optimizing success with a focus on the mindset and skill set of peak performers including Nobel Prize winners, astronauts, Olympic and NBA champions. She is also an award winning author of the Success Factor and the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring and we're going to discuss both of those books and the rest of Ruth's work in our conversation today. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for everything including my top related past episodes and books. It's all within the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 419 now let's jump right in. Dr. Ruth Gotian, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

I am so excited to have you. I'm sure that in the you know I do the intro I will have said that we got connected through my dear friend Kwame who I now know is our mutual friend who has been he's been on the show multiple times and as I said to you suggestion from Kwame is for sure and then in reading your stuff it was an obvious fit. For everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do? Sure.

I am Dr. Ruth Gauthian. I am a social scientist and I study extreme high achievers, Nobel prize winners and astronauts and Olympians, NBA champions, Fortune 500 CEOs. I've always wanted to figure out how they, they became so successful and how the rest of us mere mortals can improve our success based on the journey of these extreme high achievers. So I've been studying them for what seems like forever, reverse engineered the path. And now I go all over the world talking about it, teaching about it, keynoting about it, read some books about it, and here we are.

Ah, well, I feel like we'd be remiss knowing we're, we're here talking mostly about mentorship today. And as we think of what you've learned from, you know, that science of success, what can you share, you know, some of the highlights real from, from some of that for listeners?

Well, so that was the topic of the last book, the Success Factor, which talked about the four elements of success found in all of these extreme high achievers. But what's important to note is that they're not habits. So if you ever heard wake up at 5am, make your bed before you do anything else, read for eight hours a day and you'll be successful. And then you wonder why it doesn't work for. No, it's not going to work for you because you're not like everyone else. Every person is different. But what we can do is emulate the mindsets of the high achievers. And very quickly, the four elements that they all had was one, they tapped into what we call intrinsic motivation. This is that fire in the belly, the reason they wake up in the morning. It's not for the awards, rewards, bonuses or medals. That's what we call extrinsic motivation. The second one is what you know, you've heard about the work ethic, the grit and the resilience. Absolutely true. But really what it is, it's how they approach challenges. They never question if they can overcome a challenge. Instead they focus on how. That's number two. Number three, they never rest on their laurel. What made them so great at the beginning is what they continue to do. You see the same warmups in the NBA as you do in any seventh grade gym. They just have fancier sneakers. That's all right, but it's the same exact warmups. And last but not least, and this is really the focus of the new work on mentorship, all of the high achievers, they were continuously learning and they don't just have to go to a formal classroom that's really not for everyone. But they are continuously learning through books and articles and podcasts such as this one, and LinkedIn learning courses and webinars. And they also surrounded themselves with a team of mentors, people who believed in them more than they believed in themselves. And yes, even Olympic champions face that imposter syndrome. So people who believed in them, people who opened doors for them, people who could see way beyond the horizon because they are able to have that perspective, that 60,000 foot view that sometimes when we're deep inside the jar, we can't read the label, we don't have that perspective. And that's where mentorship can help.

Yes, I love all of that and so much of seeing from the new book the tie ins from those successful pieces. And I love that. Taking the dive on mentorship as a place to look at from these pieces of success and this aspect of coaching I think is a really interesting one. And I fully embrace my bias for the love of the forward. Introducing conversations with Pete Carroll, coming from Seattle area and from the Seahawks. But the can you share a little bit on, I mean, that story of. And I know that came from your forwardist, but in the, you know, the question of like, you know, what are you going to do for your team? You know, how are you going to coach them? And knowing that it wasn't about drills. Right. But can you share a little bit about how that ties in?

That's right. And what you're talking about is, is the forward that was written by Steve Kerr, nine time NBA champion, coach of the Golden State warriors and now Team USA as well. After he became a player and when he decided he was going to be a coach, he actually went to his mentor and he observed him and he talked to him and they were talking about how he was going to make a great team. And he said, yes, I have all these drills I want to do and we're going to work out like this. And then his mentor said to him, how are you going to coach your team? What are the values that are important and how are you going to embed those values into the team? And anyone who knows Steve Kerr knows that his values are so important to him. That's the best part of the forward. And I can tell you I did not have to change a single word in what he wrote.

I believe it. It's really a powerful message that he's sharing. Like you said, great. You know, just stories across so many people that it's so easy to think I'm that like superstar and don't need help. And I'm going to go it alone and showing that. Like you said, I mean, Olympians have lots of coaches. Superstar athletes have coaches. They have people they can be talking to and coaches and mentors and consultants and all the things. And so can you do a little bit of definition as we have here in the book, Right. Like what's the difference between a coach and a mentor and all these sorts of things and why do we need different ones?

We need all of those things. So there's four that we usually talk about. The first one is often the role model. This is someone you want to be even if you've never met that person. There's something that they do that you just want to become. I am a social scientist. I do qualitative research. I interview people all day long. Who's the best interviewer in the world?

Oprah.

Yes.

Right.

And I did not prime you for that. But nine times out of ten when I ask people that question, that's what they say. Now, she's not a social scientist, but she can be interviewing the Prince of England or your next door neighbor and she makes them feel like they are the only person in the room and what they're saying matters. I have watched thousands of hours of Oprah Winfrey interviewing people so that I can learn from her. Right. There's something I want to emulate from her. I have never met Oprah Winfrey. I'm getting closer. Maybe one day it'll happen. Maybe someone listening here has that connection. But I've never met her. But I really want to emulate the way she interviews people and is able to hyper focus on what they're saying and build on it. So that's role model. A mentor is the one who talks with you. They are asking you questions, they are offering ideas, they are planting seeds in your head. They're your guide by the side who's able to think about strategy and forward thinking. Kathy Cram out of Boston, her seminal work on this, which has lasted well over a quarter of a century, talks about the two roles of a mentor. The one for the professional development, your career, but also the psychosocial support, their cheerleader. They are there to pull you up when you're feeling down. They are celebrating not just the end goal, but every single milestone. That's mentor the coach and I do that as well. Is somebody I say talks at you. They're asking the questions. It's usually time bound to work on something very specific. So think about athletes, right? Because that's the easiest Way, way to think about it. They have coaches for different things. It's a coach in the weight room, right? There's a coach for, for batting, right. Or for hitting if you're a baseball player. There's a third base coach, a first base coach. There's different roles because they have different skills that you want to work on. And then of course, we have role model, mentor, coach and sponsor. And a sponsor is somebody who talks about you even when you're not in the room. They are opening the doors. They are nominating you for choice, awards and committees and opportunities. Now, here's the most important thing to remember. Don't worry about using the right labels. That's irrelevant. We have enough labels in our life. We don't have to worry about another one. The point is you should have a person or multiple people who take on all of these functions. It could be one person, four people, two people, whatever it is. But you want these people with these different roles to help you. And if you look, the Olympics are coming up and if you watch any sport, I don't care what sport it is, as soon as they are done, the athlete is done. Do you know who they run to first? They're running to the coach to see what worked, what didn't work, what can I do better? Because that feedback, they know is an opportunity for enhancement. And that's what we need to do. When we're talking to people, listen to what they're saying. It's only going to elevate us.

Absolutely. And I know while you were talking, you mentioned, you know, that you are a mentor in some cases, you're a coach in some cases I'm confident you're also a sponsor and a role model for many. Right. And so in this space, I guess I answered the question that I was going to be asking, but we'll, for the fun of it, we'll say, do we have to pick one and how do we choose which of these roles we're looking to to be and who to. How do we pick, you know, who's going to fill each of these for us or do we just need one?

So I think you need to have all four. I think you should never ever ask somebody to be your mentor. Because the mentors, at least in the United States, it's different in Europe and in the United States they're volunteers, so they're giving of their time. So if you're asking someone for their guidance, you have to make it worth their while. Right? And you have to show them that you're going to put in the work. But a title of mentor that's earned. So a mentor can't call themselves that. And I think that has to be earned. And one day the mentee will call you that if that's what you are. Right, the mentor. But I don't think that going up to someone and asking them, will you be my mentor? I have never seen that work out. So definitely you want all of those people. I think you want to ask people for guidance and ask them for their support and make it time bound and be specific, give it some context. Because if you're going to say I am working on this project and I am stuck in this one area, I know that you've worked on this kinds of things in the past and you have expertise. Could I grab you for 15 minutes to show you what I've done and could you help me think about what I'm missing? Because I want to fill that gap. Well, now the mentor's going to be excited because now they know why you approach them, how long it's going to take and how they're going to help. That's better than will you help me with my career?

Right. And it feels like this never ending sort of span and what am I committing to and people I, you know, we know most people have a hard time stopping something once you've started it. So I guess for one, you know, if I agree to being your mentor, am I now your mentor forever? And I'm committing to an hour whenever you want it or you know what that sort of looks like. What, what are your thoughts on the, the permanence or lack thereof of mentorship?

Well, I don't think being a mentor is a life sentence. So I don't think that you need the same mentor forever because you're going to be at different places in your career. Your needs when you're 40, 50 are very different than your needs when you're 20 or 30. It doesn't mean you cut them out of your life. It just means that they take on a very, very different role. So for example, my mentor, who was my doctoral advisor when I was getting my doctorate, we're both early risers and I have a long commute to work. When I got home from work, I would work on a section of my dissertation. I would send it to her at night before I went to bed. She woke up, you know, before sunrise. She would read it, send me remarks. I would glance at it before I got in the car. And then on my way to work, we would talk about her comments. And we did this every single day during my commute to work years later. Right. I'm not writing a dissertation anymore. We don't have that daily contact, but we do talk about once a quarter and it's more as friends and it's a very different role. And I, I'm blessed that I had that then and honored that I have that now. And I think that's the best part is the mentors take on different, different roles as you advance in your career and your personal life.

Yes, I definitely want to get to the different types of mentors, like you're saying that, like peer to peer versus formal and informal. And I know I had primed you a bit with this conversation about dissertations and how I will often ask our guests about what their dissertation was about. And because you've now introduced this amazing process of, of working on it, can you share a little bit? What did you work on for that dissertation?

You know, you talked about it and I said, wait a minute, I think I have a copy in the office and it would be good to use it as something other than a doorstop. And you know, it's huge. It's, I think it's bigger than my books. It certainly heavier.

Definitely looks like it is. And I, so I will say, and I know I have mentioned this when you went to pull it off of the shelf. I have not never seen a hardbound like full book dissertation. I mean, it's a, it's a thing. So I, I mean, bowing down to that, which is your dissertation. And, and yes, let's, let's talk about it.

Well, I, you know, I worked so hard on it, I thought it deserved a cover.

I love that.

And then I bound one for each of my committee members and my parents. So what was my dissertation? My dissertation was called Optimizing success of Physician Scientist. I have been obsessed with success for a very, very long time. I used to run what's called an MD PhD program for people who are getting both the MD and PhD degree simultaneously. And I was noticing that for over 20 years that I was running this program nationally. We had a attrition issue of certain people committing to this seven, eight year program. And then they were leaving at around year three, four, five. And just so you know, Maryland PhD programs are paid by tax dollars. Somebody funded them at the beginning. Where did we go wrong? What happened? So everyone was looking at how do we keep them in? And I kept saying, forget about them. I think we're looking at the wrong end of the problem. Why don't we look at those who are exceeding beyond expectations, and how do we make more of those people? And I learned that Those people are 400% more productive than average employees. So what if we can make more high achievers? So my original research on success started with physician scientists, and that's where I got to interview the people such as the Nobel Prize winners and NIH Institute directors and surgeon generals and people who won all the big scientific prizes. And then I realized after I looked at all the physician scientists and after I finished the dissertation, that it was the same. The same four elements of success, when I spoke to other high achievers, astronauts and Olympians, et cetera. And one day I had a conversation with Dr. David Satcher. He was the former Surgeon General of the United States under Clinton. And I was telling him about my research and what I found. And he said, ruth, you have to publish this. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. Academic articles, yeah, you know, I'm going to do that. He said, no, no, no, as a book. I said, who in the world is going to want to read this? He said, trust me. You convert the academic language into lay language and cut out half the scientific figures. And he said, trust me on the Surgeon General, this is your warning. You need to publish this. And he planted that seed in my head years and years ago, and that led to the last book, and now we keep going with this new book on mentoring.

Oh, exciting. And thank you. And I love that in this case, it really is super tied in with what became the book and what we're talking about. It's always fun to hear about dissertations, to me, because it shows. I mean, you had to be really passionate about something to have it be your dissertation. Because as you're saying, you work on it for so long, and sometimes then as you get into different areas of work and research, you kind of get thrown into something that maybe you. You aren't as passionate about as something you picked for that. That dissertation research. And so I think it's a really good way to learn a little bit more about people and some of that definite intrinsic motivation that is required in finishing.

Well, I'll tell you some really great pieces of advice that I got from my mentors, which I will pass on. So when I started my dissertation, I was 43 years old, working full time, and had a family, and I was doing the doctoral work in addition, not instead of anything. And when I was talking about my research, I spoke to my mentor. And like the brilliant mentor that he is, he said, do something important not just interesting. Those six words changed my life. Because when you do something important, not just interesting, that took my research study on success from what would have been an institutional study to a global study. Nobody would have been interested in an institutional study. Everybody's interested in the global study. Now when I, when I sign, when I autograph the new book, the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, I write those six words. Do something important, not just interesting. Brilliant, brilliant words by my mentor, Dr. Burt Shapiro. That was the first piece of advice. The second piece of advice, if there's anyone listening who's actually working on their doctorate, someone early on told me, hyper focus on the population you want to study. Niche down to it. It can't be too broad. And then every paper you write during your study is about that population. To whatever theory, whatever academic theory you're learning, you focus on that population. Then when you have to write your dissertation, your whole introduction lit review is done.

Smart.

Saved me a lot of time.

I bet.

I'm all about, you know, double dipping when it comes to writing.

Work smarter. That's right. For sure.

That's right.

Great, great advice. And I guarantee that there's at least one person that's listening that's working on their dissertation. I know that we have many academics and programs that, where people are listening to the show. So those are great, great pieces of advice. And even, I mean, as with all sorts of great tidbits like this, this do something important, not just interesting, that applies to everything. I know people who are looking to, who are already entrepreneurs or considering starting something or thinking about sharing content and the where we're going to focus our attention. Because you can't do everything, you can't do it all well and to the level that you want to. And as you're looking for that opportunity to focus what your team's going to work on or the pet project you're going to or the, if you're doing a side hustle or whatever it is, if you have this aspect of importance to it and it should still be interesting, right? But like, if it's go beyond interesting to that thing, that's gonna be really important. I think that's just great general advice as well. So thank you for sharing that.

You know, I interviewed one of the people I got to interview is Dr. Tony Fauci, pre Covid. And he was the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious diseases at the NIH. And I said to him, Dr. Fauci, how did you know which diseases to focus on? Because he was one of the lead investigators in HIV and aids. And then he worked on Zika and Ebola and sars. And all of this was before COVID emerged and he said, you work on what's important, not just interesting. Same words, right? Because when it's important, it could positively impact millions of people you will never have the opportunity to meet. I love that ripple effect.

So here's a question for these, those who are listening that are thinking about doing, like myself, as someone who does podcast interviews, and as we're maybe I'm sure there's someone researching for a book or something else. What tips do you have of getting these amazing people to do interviews with you? Right. What. What are some of your. Do you have any go to tips and tactics in asking for interviews and getting time from these, you know, really amazing people who. Anyone who's busy, they don't have to have a name we all recognize to also be. Have very valuable time. So what are your tips for getting people to do interviews with you?

You know, 95% was through networking and through introductions. I think people like to help people, but they don't know how to help because we don't ask. We're not specific with what our ask is. And I make it very clear. I'm not here to be a fan girl. I'm not here to talk about things I can Google about you. I am not here to talk about your winnings. I want to know what it took to get there. And they don't get asked to talk about the journey. And when. If I'm interviewing someone and they're recommending me to someone else, they're putting their reputation behind the ask. And people have done that because I have tried over and over and over again to prove that the work is. Is solid, that it puts him in a good light. I am not here to be paparazzi. I am not here to slam anyone or. Or paint them in a negative light or ask for anything. Right. I'm not here to ask for autographs or anything like that. And I think that has helped. And when we're able to have those genuine conversations, it just. That was the first of many. And with many of them, it then evolved where we became very good friends. And now I'm even writing articles with some of them I just published with one of the astronauts. It was illuminating because I think we learned from each other. It was fabulous.

Oh, I love that.

Thank you.

Yes. Use your network be. And I think in that same question of where you were saying, for the aspects of the specific thing you're trying to figure out to show someone that it's not a forever thing, that you're going to keep coming back, back to the well and that you don't know what you're wanting to ask them. I think like you said in that mentorship piece, if you ask for 15 minutes to like, use 14 and a half, right. We're not, we're not say, asking for 15 so we can actually try to get 45 and ramble and, and whatnot, right. Want to be thoughtful for what we need, why we're asking them. You did your research. You understand why you're. There's. I want to know this specific thing they can prep a little bit. And you know that kindness and reciprocity goes a long way for all those.

Asks, all of it. And don't forget to follow up. So if you're going to talk, if you are my mentor and you gave me your 15 minutes of the time and you recommended A, B and C and I decided to do A and C, but not B, I then will follow up with you and say thank you so much for the guidance you gave me. I chose to implement A and C because of whatever. I decided not to implement B because of whatever. And here are the results. Now you have this person engaged, right? You showed that you're listening because even not doing what they say is fine if you can back it up, if there's a reason for it, not just I don't like it, right. There's actually a reason for what you're doing. And now they're going to want to help you take it to the next level and next level and next level.

I love that I talk all the time about the, you know, life really is a series of micro moments, right? And too often, you know, we're thinking about trying to get someone from step A to double Z, right? And you know, you think about how this person could be my best friend and my, my forever mentor that I could always to ask you questions to or whatever. But if you're thinking all the way out there, right, we just need to start with this first thing and maybe it turns into something more. But there is also that kindness who follows up on the advice they got from somebody, right? So few people do that. And when you think about the investments that that person made in giving you their time and to be able to show that you appreciate them and how valuable it was just even down the line, you may not need to ask that person another question for their insight again. But, you know, maybe if you Were going to say, hey, I remember when we were talking, you mentioned this other person or that you were really inspired by X, Y and Z. I hope there was value in the conversation we have. I would love to ask them about this. Do you have a recommendation to get in touch with them or something? Right. And then they're probably much more likely to make that introduction when it's saying, this person is so thoughtful. They asked this really good question and they let me know how it worked. And, you know, I think that is just so, just full circle, the value you can be providing to someone which comes around. We're coming back to some different specific aspects in the book. In the value is not just for the mentee. Right. But there's value for. For being that mentor as well. And can you share a little bit about. About that?

Sure. So the mentors learn from the mentees as well. This really started reverse mentoring during the Jack Welch IBM days, GE days, when he. He realized the Internet was coming out and the senior partners had no idea what they were doing with the Internet. And he said, go to those junior people, the ones who just started on Tuesday, and ask them everything they know to teach you about the Internet. That's reverse mentoring. They can teach you something. And I don't care how senior you are, there is always something that you can learn. And I don't care how junior you are, there is always something that you can teach someone. And you can also teach them what it's like to be you. Right. Especially if you're from an underrepresented group and you report to somebody who's from a majority group. Well, what's it like to be that person in this organization? Right. If your holidays are not a federal holiday and you have to take off, for example, or whatever it is. Right. What is that like? Because it's very hard for people to show empathy when they don't even know and they don't know what they don't know. So you share a piece of yourself, and that could be so rewarding, and it will open up so much.

Yeah, I love that. So as we think about, from an organizational perspective, we know that many, many, many companies, especially in the, you know, Fortune 500 and whatnot, have formal mentoring programs as they're set up. Do they tend to work? If not, what are some tips for implementing more successful ones? And along those same lines, if someone's looking to start some sort of mentorship program in their organization, you know, what are some tips to help make that most successful?

So, sadly, most of Them don't work or they. They're not optimized. I should say one of the reasons is that the mentor matches are totally random. Right? They'll say, oh, you are both from Seattle, or you're both went to the same college, therefore you would be a great match. Well, I am pretty confident that not everyone from Seattle is the same or not everyone who went to your college is the same. I am willing to bet my reputation on that. But that's how matches are made. They're not made on how people gel. And what we know from the research is that 61% of successful mentoring matches just happen organically. Right. You start a conversation and you see who you have chemistry with and who you gel with. So what we need to do is to create opportunities for people to meet each other and have those conversations and teach people how to have conversations about something other than the weather. And I think we're. And we're able to do that. We can initiate those conversations that could lead to bigger things. And there's ways you can do it in person, there's ways that you can do it online. Now, the. The matches do have their place, and it's specifically, I think, very advantageous for those who are not comfortable reaching out to the two mentors or who historically have been under mentored or didn't know how to access them. So I think that's great. The challenge is what happens when the mentor becomes a tormentor or they become absent.

Right.

Or they're not able to give you what you need anymore because you have advanced in your career or whatever. There needs to be an exit ramp. And usually when there are these mentoring programs, that exit ramp is not in place. So there needs to be one. And the other thing we advocate for and we talk about a lot in the book is that it's impossible to scale things when it's one on one. But when you have mentoring groups within organizations, that is actually more beneficial. Two mentors, and you could have even five mentees. If one mentor is out of town or busy with the deadline, the other one can fill in. But the mentees can also learn from each other. And there's a lot to be that's very robust when you're able to do that. And it's also scalable, and you can mentor a lot more people that way. And if one doesn't work out, you can always switch groups. So there is that fluidity which is so critical as we talked about that exit ramp. So it definitely has its place. I just am not sure that the way it's been done up until this point is the best way.

So when we think about the. I'll just use the group mentoring as an example. Does that get set up around then a specific goal that maybe the. The mentees have or an area of focus where they want to learn or type of project or tenure with the organization or, you know, how. How would one go about creating those sorts of groups within the company?

This is. Yeah, this is what my co author, Andy lapont and I, we travel around the globe actually teaching people how to do this. Most of the time, what people do, and we're not saying this is the best reason is they'll say, oh, we have all these junior people, they need mentoring. But we actually say the senior people need mentoring too, because the hierarchy, as you go up, it becomes a pyramid, and there are fewer and fewer people for you to turn to. So we need to teach them how to have mentors with people also outside their organization where they can get guidance from. So it can be everyone in marketing, let's have mentoring groups. But the marketing people could really learn from the accounting people and the operations people. Right. There's so many other groups, and we need to, I think, have those cross sectors. And I don't think it should be all junior people or all senior people. I think there's definitely benefits into. Into having that overlap and not. Or. And having something specifically for junior people and specifically for senior people. And don't forget those in the middle.

Okay. And so for someone who is wanting to have. They're these achievers, these learners, they want to be better, they want to grow continually. What advice would you have for those who are excited about all the things that they can do and they see, you know, I could. I could excel over here, and I could do this, and I could do that, and anyone who wants to mentor me, I'm ready. Right? How do we go from that type of mindset to in, you know, from your work and research, of being able to say, okay, I can't do everything right now, you know, not yet, to all these other things, this is where I want to focus. You know, what? Why should they focus? And how would you recommend they go about doing that as they look to, you know, find a mentor?

You know, one of the people who I interviewed was Dr. Bob Lefkowitz. He won the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 2012. Two things about this story. One, you know, when you get the Nobel Prize, it's not usually solo. You usually share it. So when he got that phone call, at 4:00 in the morning, he said, who am I sharing it with? And they told him. And it turns out it was his mentee. And I said, bob, I said, was that strange that the biggest award in your life you're sharing with your mentee? He said, strange. He said, there's no greater honor. He said, I measure my success by the success of my mentees. Right. So I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. That's illuminating. So that was interesting. Now, the other thing that he said is for a mentoring pairing to really work, that mentoring team to work. He said, if you're going to talk about something you want to do, he said, you need to be excited about it and I need to be excited about it. Because if one of us is not excited about it, we can't support the other. It's not going to work. So let's find something that we are both excited about. And I have actually adapted that. And that is why I am now writing articles with astronauts and NBA champions. And trust me, I'm never going to space and could barely bounce a ball. But yet we found what we're both excited about and we found a way to find that overlap. And trust me, you can have connections with people. You just need to have that dialogue.

Oh, I love that. Do you have, as we close out the conversation now, if you're, if you were in a room with a, you know, a hundred strangers, you know, do you have a go to opening networking question, right, that you ask people, that helps them? Because I just know that you are someone who's an advocate of asking good questions, listening very well, and you, you know, being interested in the person you're talking to. Do you have a go to question to help people open up and talk about what they're passionate about?

Just one. I have 13. Ooh, I have 13. And actually, if your listeners want, I wrote them down, they could download them.

Yay.

Yes. If they just go on my website, Ruth Gotian R U T H g o t ruth ian.com conversation they can download my favorite conversation starters. Now, I am a 95% extrovert. I've been tested many times. I'm an adult educator. We love to test ourselves. So I need to be around people. That said, if I feel like I'm being used or the conversation is transactional, I will shut down. I am not interested. So when I walk into the room, all I want to do is meet interesting people. I do not want to have a transaction. I ask for nothing. So, for example, I Share I was at a conference with people who were way out of my league, way, way out of my league and talk about imposter syndrome. And I was sitting there in the lobby of the hotel wondering, how did I get invited to this meeting? And this woman walked by with a purse that was. It looked like a clock with a strap. And I said to her, I said, that's a really interesting purse. And she stopped. She said, you like it? I said, yes. She told me the whole story about the purse. And then we got to talking. Long story short, she was one of the first female comedic writers on television for she wrote for Maude and Mary Tyler Moore and all of that. She took me by the hand throughout the conference and started introducing me to everyone. That was a conversation that started over a compliment of her purse. That was it. I've had conversations with people over the color of their glasses, over something I see in the background on Zoom. When I was at West Point, the military academy, someone came up to me at the buffet line and she said, how are you enjoying the conference? I said, oh, it's great. She said, what was your favorite session? I told her, and she said, why? Why was that your favorite session? No one has ever asked me the why question. After what's your favorite session? We finished the buffet line, I got my roasted vegetables, and we started walking to our table. And then I said, your uniform looks different from everyone else's uniform. Why is that? And she started to explain to me how where women put their pins on a military uniform is different, and she explained why. And then we started getting to this whole conversation about it, about what it's like to be a woman in the military. It was wild. Now, notice I never asked for anything. She never asked for anything. Besides, what is your favorite session and why? So it's about having interesting conversations. Later on, you can continue to ask questions using what's called the 24730 model. So after you meet someone at a networking event, a cocktail reception, a conference, whatever, you exchange information. 24 hours later you say, it was so great to meet you. I hope you had a safe flight home. I love talking to you about X. Seven days later, you reach out again and you say, I was thinking about what you said about so and so, and it got me thinking about whatever. Thirty days later, you follow up again. I remember what you said about so and so, and it reminded me of this podcast interview, this article or whatever. Thought you might enjoy it. You haven't asked for anything, but now you've engaged three times and of course you follow on social media, et cetera. So there's actually, there's strategies to, to engage with someone and continue the conversation. You don't just want to collect those business cards and not do anything with them, but there's a proper way to actually engage with someone so that it doesn't feel slimy.

Ooh, wonderful. Like, I'm so glad I asked the the right question here as we're closing out. So thank you for those really helpful, actionable tips for everyone. I know that they are going to be using that 24, 730 model. I will be for sure. And getting 13 questions that we get to ask. So we'll put links for that in the show notes. Is there anywhere else you know, for people that are looking to follow up to learn more, connect with you? You know, where should they go? Where's the best place to do that?

Absolutely. All of my social media. It's just my name, Ruth Gautian. The name of the book is Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. And anybody who wants to download a free chapter, see what the book's about, see what cool people endorse the book. You could go to mentoring guide.com and there's also a assessment there. If you are in a mentoring relationship and you want to see how healthy it is and how impactful it is, you can just go there under resources@mentoring guide.com and it'll also tell you wherever you are in the world where you can download the book.

I love it. Well, thank you again so much for joining me today. It's been a wonderful conversation and excited for all the new, new budding mentor mentee relationships out there. Thanks to your work and the conversation, everything else. So thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you again to Ruth Gotian for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, when I reflect on this book and conversation, I tend to focus on this cyclical nature of relationships, ongoing connection points, and how we can evolve our roles and relationships over time. So at one point you may need to have someone who inspires you and get you motivated. At another time you need a peer that acts like an accountability buddy who pushes you further than you knew possible, whom you can learn with. Sometimes you have a formal mentor and other times informal. You may have a coach in one area but mentors in another. And hopefully you're always giving back as much or more than you receive so that it inspires others to continue to be supportive and you can lift as you climb. If you have reached a point in your career where you're able to look back and say, wow, I'm so thankful for my mentors for helping me to get here. How can you pay them back and pay it forward by being a mentor for someone else. It can be in any area, but be kind, be thoughtful, be willing to ask for help and to help others. I personally believe we would all be better off if everyone was a little bit more thoughtful in this way. What do you think? How have you been inspired by a mentor or found value from being a mentor or mentee? Come share it on social media. There are links to connect with myself and Ruth in the show Notes, which also include links to my top related past episodes and books, including, of course, the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring and the Success Factor and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 419 and thank you again to Dr. Ruth Gotian for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

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