432. Mastering Ethical Influence with Brian Ahearn (Refreshed Episode)

Welcome to episode 432 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy Today's episode is all about how to ethically influence people with Brian Ahern. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here's your your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello.

Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Today's episode is all about ethically influencing people with Brian Ahern. Brian is one of only a dozen individuals in the world who currently holds the Cialdini Method Certified Trainer designation and one of just a handful to have earned the Cialdini Pre Suasion Trainer designation. He's also a faculty member of the prestigious Cialdini Institute. Brian's passion is to help you achieve greater professional success and enjoy more personal happiness. He does this by teaching you how to ethically move others to action using the Science of Influence. Brian has been in the business arena for more than 35 years and training people for over two decades. In addition to his influence sales and leadership work, Brian has been a business coach to regional vice presidents, sales managers, field sales reps, and wealth advisors. Named one of the top 100 influencers of 2016 by the Science of Digital Marketing, Brian's blog has readers in 200 countries and was one of the top 30 psychology blogs of 2012 according to the Online Psychology Degree Guidelines. Brian's first book, Influence People Powerful Everyday Opportunities to Persuade that Are Lasting and Ethical, was an Amazon Best seller and named one of the top 100 influence books of All Time by Book Authority and is the focus of our conversation here today. In addition to his writing, Brian's LinkedIn learning courses on how to apply influence in sales and coaching have been viewed by more than 700,000 people around the world and his TEDx talk has over a million views. Congratulations Brian. And in case you're wondering why I'm refreshing this episode here today, it's because of my upcoming conversation in this coming Friday's episode with Andy Lapata, who is a Six Degrees of Separation sort of connection to Brian as we discuss in that episode. Brian Brian introduced me to Kwame Christian, who's now a great friend and has been on the show several times. Kwame introduced me to Ruth Gotian who was a co author with Andy and introduced me to him. Ethical Influence and the Power of Connection in Business is real. So thank you, Brian, for all the amazing connections you've made over the years, both directly and indirectly. I'm excited to refresh this episode today. Don't forget that there are links for everything, including my top related past episodes and books waiting for you in the show Notes for this episode which are found within the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 432 all right, let's talk about ethical influence. Brian Ahern, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.

Thank you for having me on. I am looking forward to it.

Me too. I've enjoyed the conversations that we've had. We connected a couple weeks back to just talk about all of your work and your book that came out last year. And I would love if you could tell a little bit about what you do and your book influence people for everyone that's listening.

Well, I stumbled onto Robert Cialdini's work quite a long time ago and I was involved in sales training. And for me the light bulb came on. I realized the psychology that he was teaching, it's the underpinnings of all the training that we do in sales. It's either why certain things worked or why they didn't. And I began to incorporate his material into the training I was doing when I worked with an insurance company and I would work with our field salespeople and I also worked with independent insurance agents. So really my main focus over the last nearly two decades has been working with salespeople, although I also work with business leaders, business coaches, and have even done some work with attorneys. My strength is the application of the psychology of persuasion. I'm not a social scientist. I don't aspire to be one. But I'm fascinated by the research and my mind likes to take that and see how can we implement it to help people enjoy more success at the office and happiness at home.

Awesome. So you mentioned obviously Cialdini and you are one of a very few individuals that have been trained specifically by Cialdini in his methods. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Sure. So there's 20 of us right now who are certified around the world who teach on his behalf what we call the Cialdini method. And it's a pretty rigorous process. When I came across his material, he came to Columbus, Ohio. He spoke for the insurance company that I worked for. And during that time my boss and I, we went out to Arizona and we went through the two day workshop. And I could clearly see the need that we had internally to do a better job persuading various constituents so that we could move the company goals ahead, but also externally work with agents. So I started to petition my boss to allow me to go back to Arizona and go through the week long certification process with Dr. Cialdini and his partner, Dr. Gregory Neidert, and finally got that. Okay. And it was a pretty rigorous process. They limit it to usually two to four people, although I went through a little bit larger group back then. But they keep that very, very tight and they are especially concerned about how will people be presenting the research. They really want their research presented in a pristine way. And so you go through this deep four or five day training with Dr. Cialdini and Dr. Neidert and you actually do a lot of teach backs to those folks. So that's pretty intimidating, I'll say, to do a teach back to the guy who wrote the book and is considered the guru of influence. But that was kind of the process that we went through. And then even once you're through that, we had to be audited. So we do a first workshop and Dr. Niederd flies out and he audits you. And only after you've shown that you can handle this material in front of a group over a two day workshop are you finally certified. And so as I said earlier, there's only 20 of us now around the world who hold that certification.

Oh, that's awesome. I love when you see someone who is multiplying themselves but in a responsible way. And instead of just this, I'm going to certify everyone in the entire world and all of a sudden that certification becomes a bit meaningless, you know, but being able to take where you know, Cialdini knows his stuff for sure. We talked about him on the podcast before. There have been episodes on Reciprocity and Social Proof, which I'm sure we'll talk about those today. But the different ways that someone. It's not just about the like money grab of getting as many people certified as possible. It is this responsible. I know you talk a lot about ethics in the book and your work and Cialdini does as well of making sure that this is being taught properly and responsibly. So people can actually be using the art of persuasion or pre suasion. As you know, Cialdini has that as well to be helping the world instead of being manipulative.

Yes. And one thing I will say that really also drew me to him. When we went out to Arizona to go through that first workshop, we were fortunate enough to have dinner with he and his wife and the manager of the office. And after we were finished eating, he asked how we were using what we had learned through his book Influence. And as we began to talk about specific things that we were doing, he leaned forward, his eyes got wide, he got this big smile on his face. And you could tell he was so passionate about hearing how people were taking his life's work and putting it into play to better their organization, better themselves, their relationships and things. And I just remember thinking, that's a guy I want to be associated. Associated with. And so I've been very fortunate that it's been getting close to 20 years that I've had association with him.

Yeah, that's awesome. I know that when you find people who are passionate about the work, I think it definitely is a testament to. He just can't physically be everywhere. And I know that Dan Ariely has a lot of the same. He wants to take on every single project. And I appreciate on his email if you've ever sent Dan Ariely an email. I have that he's got his little, you know, upfront of I have been told I must have this stop gap of I'm not allowed to respond to every email that comes in because I'll say yes to everything because I get so excited about projects and things. And I definitely have a lot of that same problem. Just you want to help everybody and work on every possible thing. And when you can't be everywhere at once, finding some people that are really well suited to teach on your behalf is a cool way to do that. So I loved when we connected on that piece and I actually. So I have your book Influence People. I'm looking at it now. I really enjoy your. You know, the COVID has a big maze, but somebody just walking kind of straight through on the red carpet. And so you have where people is an acronym. What would you say is the overarching theme of the book? Why did you write it? What is it there to help people to be able to do it?

Is there to help people apply this research? I have had so many people who have read Influence Science and Practice or the other version of it was called the Psychology of Persuasion and they're fascinated by it. Or they can come to a two day workshop where they can hear a keynote and they're fascinated by the research. And when you tell the stories and show the numbers and it blows people away about what a difference it can make, but then they leave and they still don't know quite what to do. And as a person who I said earlier, I see my strength as the application. I had started blogging more than a decade ago, and I started pulling a lot of that because it was very practical information to help people put this into practice. And so my book, I feel like, fills a gap where people go back and they still don't know exactly what to do. And so I give very, very practical examples in short chapters, ending each chapter with, here's how you can influence people and giving that practical takeaway. My goal is that somebody would go, oh, I can do that. And then if they try that one thing and they're like, wow, it really worked, then they're going to look for more opportunities.

Yeah, absolutely. And so I'm just flipping through and seeing what comes up. So people like to do business with people they like. There's this also. So what Chevy Chase didn't do before vacation, and would you choose the $25 gas card or Visa card? I do love in going through the book, like you said, those really specific examples, and I think you do a nice job of boiling those down into the concrete specific tip of something that you're able to do. You give a little bit of the study, but not too much. Right. So it's not that you're having to read all things in the world. Do you have a couple of stories that are your favorite either whether they made it into the book or not? I know we've talked about the post IT note and we've talked about ending things on a question which I think we can get to at some point during the interview, because there are a couple of my favorites. But do you have some others that you want to share or those ones?

Well, I'll give one really, really simple one, because a lot of people who may listen to this, maybe they're not in the position of being the leader of the organization or the manager of the department, but they're the worker bee. They just need to get things done. And I have a story in the book about somebody that I worked with named Jim. And Jim was an IT guy and super nice guy. I mean, I would say he was a friend, although we didn't do things outside of work. But one of those people you see and you enjoy talking to, well, he sent a request to about a dozen of us to do something. And being a non IT guy, I just glanced at the email. I'm like, this looks like it's going to be hard. So I didn't do anything with it. At some point, he emails back and says, hey, where do we stand on this? And I felt a little bit Bad because he's a nice guy and he'd helped me out before. So I reopened the email. I look at it, I do exactly what he says. And it was really easy. I mean, it took me like five minutes. So I hit reply all and said, all done. That was easy. And then he did what most people would do. He replied right back to me and he said, thank you. So I called him up and I said, jim, has everybody finished this? And he said, no, we're still waiting for one guy out in Indianapolis. And I said, I explained a little bit about social proof. And I said, go back and hit reply all because if he feels the pressure of the group that everybody's done and he's not, maybe he'll respond. And so he did exactly that. And he kind of called him out like, hey, you know, everybody's done. Bob, when do you think you're going to be able to finish? And seven minutes later, Bob's email comes through. Consider me among those who've completed the task. Now, for my friend Jim, that's a big win. He doesn't have to keep hounding people. He doesn't have to worry about it. Check mark, move on to the next thing. And this is where I think for the average person who understands something like this, they can just get more things done. Their day is less friction, less hassle, got something done, moved on to that next project and just keep moving ahead. And when you're that person who is able to get things accomplished like that, I think that bodes very, very well for your career.

I am intrigued by this example too, and I'm glad you brought it up in. So do you have. I think a lot of people would be concerned about, and I would say, myself included, about calling someone out and saying, bob, you're the only one that hasn't done this yet in front of the whole group to where the. That could cause some sort of animosity or difficulty or then other people in the group being concerned that, you know, you're going to shame them publicly. Do you have any advice again of how that works?

Yeah, he definitely could have handled that a little bit different because he was, he was very forthright. Again, my, my reply all was to let everybody else know that I was finished and maybe pull them along. I didn't know how many had or had not right. His reply back could have been like, hey, Brian, thanks so much for doing that. We're almost done. If you haven't finished yours yet, please do so as quickly as possible. I'd like to Put this to bed today, something like that, or looks like just about everybody's finished. If you're the one or two people who we're still waiting on, please. That way nobody would have known it was Bob, and Bob wouldn't have felt called out. So that's one of those things, too. That's a good learning opportunity. Sometimes you teach somebody something, you think you've been super clear, and then they go out and you're like, oh, that's exactly what I wanted you to do. But okay, good, you know, you got it done. And so that was an opportunity there to work with Jim on a more tactful way.

Right, right.

And then that's also the, you know, continued improvement in learning your own instructions and something that you'll remember for, you know, future when you're talking about those things. Right. That's where I always like to look for the additional opportunity versus to say something was a little bit off or a tweak. We can't know how people are hearing things until we actually experience and have those conversations.

Yep. So now it's, you know, sometimes I might say, hey, before you have that conversation, if you want to practice with me or if you want me to review your email before you send it, I'd be happy to do either of those. And a lot of times people would take me up on that.

Yeah, absolutely. There's so much nuance in it. And the things that. Where I would say for. For you and for myself and where we're so engrossed in the work that we're doing. And I know for me having a marketing background, my husband reminds me often that the things that are very easy for me to rephrase something or a slight tweak on a thing that is just the simplest thing in my brain is something that's really difficult for other people to pick up on. And where I say, and now that you know this, just go put that into a subject line. And that is something that, you know, people want the ability to be able to say, did I do that right?

Is this okay?

You know, and it's good to be able to help people with that point. So I love that you do that.

And before we leave this example, when we talk about social proof, it's very easy for people to just get in their mind like, oh, crowds. And that's a word that I use as a remember. But just because it's a crowd doesn't always mean it's good. You don't want to tout that everybody's doing something when it's negative, as if, like, oh, look how big and bad the problem is. Because that only gives justification to other people. So those become some of the nuances where you say, okay, you know, a. For effort, you. You're trying to use this, but let's talk about what's going to happen when you tell the whole world how big this problem is. And so there's a lot of the nuance to really work with people to get them to a point where they feel like they can totally run on their own.

Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought up the remembering devices that you have in here. I think I enjoyed the way that you. You put different concepts. So, like, crowds was the social proof, you know, in sort of these simple terms to help people remember things. In the same way, I. I don't talk about System one and System two, and I just say conscious and subconscious things like that. But that reminded me. So I flipped through in the book, because I have it here with me while we're talking, is there was this one piece which, for anyone who goes to look, it's page 29 of the. The book here. But you talk about in this space of relativity and being able to compare and combining anchors you have in this high, low. And I loved the line that you used to finish up that section which says, there is nothing high or low, but comparing makes it so. And so this had the example of, you know, if somebody was to buy. I think you had the tv. Yeah. So if you say, oh, the. So the price of this piece of furniture is 9.99, and then quickly said, I'm sorry, that's not correct. The price is actually 799, then 799 seems like a good deal. But if you had originally quoted 5.99 and said, oh, I'm sorry, it's actually $7.99, it feels much worse and more painful even though the price is exactly the same. And whether it feels high or low, I appreciate the. You know, nothing is ever high or low. It's just based on what's around it. I really just love the phrasing on that. So I don't know if you've used that for a long time, but. Or if that's a Cialdini peach that I hadn't picked up on. But it's lovely.

It was something that I came up with when I wrote a blog post a long, long time ago. And it was Shakespeare. There's nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so. And this is where my. This is how my mind works. And all of a sudden it clicked for me. I'm like, oh, there's nothing higher, low. But comparing makes it so, you know, and it's just like that acronym people. I mean, that's my acronym. I made that up. Powerful Everyday opportunities to persuade their lasting and ethical. I don't remember when it was that it came to me, but my mind tends to work that way where I see these things. And that's what I want to share with people. If I can make that kind of almost a rhyme and memorable, they're going to probably keep that in their conscious or subconscious and be able to then act on it.

Yeah.

And so let's say it slowly one more time. So what does people stand for and how does that tie in? Obviously, it's the title of the book. So how does that all work it.

So your listeners can't obviously see it, but it's influence people. And the word people is capitalized because it's an acronym. So the P stands for powerful, E for every day, O is opportunity, L is lasting, and E is ethics. Oh, I forgot the P in the middle. They're powerful every day. And the next P is persuade. They're lasting and ethical. And I chose that framework because powerful. It's all backed up by research. And that's what people find very fascinating. It's an everyday skill. I like to say, from womb to tomb, the moment we come into existence, people are trying to get their needs met. The baby cries because it needs to be burp, held, fed, something. But it's trying to get you to change your behavior and do something for it. And we do this through the entirety of our life. So it's an everyday skill. Until people really begin to learn the language of persuasion, There are opportunities that are out there that they're just missing. And it might be an overused example, but you know, when you buy your car, all of a sudden you're driving your car, you see your car on the road everywhere. It's been there, you just didn't notice it before. And understanding a language of persuasion is very similar that you start to label reciprocity and social proof and these other principles. It's amazing how all of a sudden you begin to see them in play or your opportunities to use them. When I talk about persuasion so that next P I'm always talking about not just changing hearts and minds, but actually changing behavior. I don't think it's enough that you get mental assent with somebody. You usually want them to change their behavior. If Somebody listening to this is a manager or supervisor. It's not enough for them to talk to an employee who says, yeah, I agree. We should get here on time. And then they come in late tomorrow. You want to change that behavior. So it really comes down to that behavioral change. And I always say, if it's done right, sometimes it can lead to lasting change. Because once people's behaviors change, sometimes it impacts their identity. And if it does that and they see themselves differently, then sometimes they get into a pattern where they continue with that behavior. You want your kids to study or you want your spouse to eat healthy. You want your employees to come to work on time. You don't want to have to persuade every single time that topic comes up. So sometimes you do it right, and it can have this lasting impact. And then the final E is ethical. It all has to be done within an ethical framework. We never want to manipulate somebody. So that's what the acronym PEOPLE stands for.

Perfect. I love it. Powerful everyday opportunities to persuade that are lasting and ethical. Wonderful. I have to revisit the post it note nudge because it's one of my favorite examples, and I know we had talked about it previously. Can you share that with the group?

Sure. This is a great example, I think, where people are fascinated by what happened, but don't always then put it into practice or don't see their opportunities. There was some research done where a company was sending out a health insurance survey, and they wanted to see if they could positively impact the response rate with one group. They sent the survey just like they normally would with a cover letter. And 36% of the people responded to the survey. With a second group, they sent out the same survey and the same cover letter, but they put a handwritten note on the COVID letter. So it might have said, melina, thanks so much for helping out. Something that personalized it a little bit, and the response rate went from 36 to 48%. So that's pretty good. You know, it's a 33% increase for doing nothing more than taking a moment to personalize each of those letters. But in a third group, they sent out the same survey, same cover letter, same personal message, but they put it on a sticky note. And with that group, 76% of the people responded and actually took the survey. So it more than doubled from the original. Just send it out with a cover letter.

Right.

And there were other independent studies that verified that it can significantly, sometimes double the response rate. So that's really all people need to understand is, wow. Using a Sticky note will probably get a lot more people to do what I want them to do. And the other thing I will mention in that study is not only did more people fill out the survey, but they also sent it out with more complete information intended to send it back sooner. So lots of positive benefits. The company that I worked for, we ran into a mistake one time where we accidentally overpaid some insurance agents that represented the company. All of the agents in the state in the month of December had their commissions doubled. It was a $700,000 mistake, and there was about half a dozen of us that were charged with figuring out how do we get the money back as quickly as possible. And this goes back quite a few years. So we couldn't just electronically pull it out of their accounts. So as we strategized about what we were going to do, one thing was a letter was going to have to go out from the home office accounting manager to all 150 agents asking them to please sit down and write us a check as quickly as possible and send the money back. Not a high priority for most people to write, you know, six, eight, $10,000 checks and send them back to the insurance company. So we knew this would be a challenge. But fortunately, the accounting manager had been through some of my training the prior year. So I reminded him, I said, steve, you remember what we talked about with the sticky notes? And he said, yeah. And I said, if you don't have time to put a sticky note on every One of the 150 letters, call me. I will come over and do it. And he said, no, I remember the study. I will do it. So we send the 150 letters out, and a couple weeks later, I call him up and I asked him how the collection's going. And Melina, his exact words were, I'm floored. And I said, why? And he responded, we've gotten money back from 130 of the 150 already. Now, the optimist in me said, you mean we didn't get it all back? And he did what you did. He laughed at me. And he goes, come on, man, we're talking about money. He goes, I fully expected them to say, your mistake, you fix it, or take it out of next month's commission or payment plan, anything except sit down and write that check in full. He goes, I'm just. I'm floored.

Yeah.

And by the time we ended up having lunch a couple months later, he told me that they had collected money from 147 of the 150 in full.

Oh, it's amazing.

And so here's a guy, he's an accounting manager. Totally, you know, in the logical quadrant, if you use like a four quadrant system of people, he's the logical analytical guy who probably originally thought that BS doesn't work on me. But he was such a believer in this that when his town had a bond issue come up for the schools and he had a couple of daughters who were still in school, they sent out an FAQ frequently asked questions to I think it was a couple thousand people who had not voted in the prior election. And they superimposed a sticky note on it and he personally signed all 2000. I mean if you're going to commit that much time, you are a believer. And he knows how people respond about money. So those are the kind of things that I find fascinating and it made his life so much easier.

Yeah.

So that I was going to follow up with some questions about. So the superimposed sticky note, did it have a similar impact? So it's not just the raised piece. I would assume that the raised obviously placed on where you can tell it wasn't just pre printed on the letter or whatnot has some impact that there's a benefit there and that you also, you know, but a lot of the benefit comes from the call out of a color like a box, you know, something that's saying this is important. And then the handwritten to show that I cared enough to do something. There's a little reciprocity there as well. But so did the superimposed have a similar positive impact?

Yeah, the bond levy passed by a wide, wide margin. So again that just reinforces of course we didn't do an AB testing with. It was funny, my boss at the time said we should send 75 letters to people with a sticky note and 75 without. And we're like wait a minute, John, we just want to get the money back. Let's go with what we know works.

Let's just be happy we get money and, and call it good, good to test other times when the, you know, it's not quite as dire as, you know, $350,000 in that case of needing that money to come back in. But that is such a simple thing. And I also love that you brought up as far as the application piece is in the moment when we need to use these tools the most is when our brains are most likely to be overwhelmed and subconscious is likely to take over and we're going to revert to what we worked or what we've done in the past. And you're less likely to try the things that you actually need in the moment. And so being whether it's practicing them and using them at other times so they're more likely to be used when you need them. So because he had done the sticky note, he knew to do it again. Do you have any tips that you give people to help it so that they're more top of mind on these tips other than, you know, just practice?

I think a very easy one is to always stop and reread an email before you send it to just ask yourself, is there anywhere in here where I could be more persuasive? And a very simple thing with an email is am I telling somebody what to do? And I could be asking because if I change my statement into a question and I can get agreement from them, the principle of consistency is kicked in. Somebody is far more likely to do what I want if they have verbally or in writing said that they would versus me just sending an email or telling them verbally what they need to do.

Yes.

And so that's a really, really simple exercise. Just reread it and ask yourself, is there anywhere in here where I could be changing a statement into a question to get somebody to respond? Even if they respond no. At least you understand where they stand. But there also may be other psychological principles that you can bring in after hearing no. But that's a. That would be a very easy way to start because we send so many emails every day.

Yeah. And I'm glad we brought it back to the question mark that I had mentioned earlier on in that. So we had reconnected or when we were first talking. And I realized that I had heard you do an interview on another podcast called Copy the Pops from, you know, a year or so ago. And I remembered this question mark thing which I had been using myself and then recommending to people, but I couldn't remember where I heard it and then realized it was you. And we had connected and I didn't.

It was fate. It was fate that we would meet.

Serendipitous for sure. But that ending on a question is so important. And the increase of people responding and knowing, like I talk about on the show, the benefit of getting someone to do something, it's that small step. And even if, like you said, getting them out of the queue of they don't want it, they're not interested, they don't want it right now to know some level of engagement and then move along so you don't have to just keep wondering is really valuable, for sure.

So what I learned quite a while ago, I used to manage the bonus plan for the company that I worked for. I did that for, I don't know, 10, 12 years. And it was a little bit complicated. It was complicated, especially to the people who would only deal with it for, like one or two months a year, and then satisfied, out of mind. So usually come December or January, I was getting a lot of questions about the calculations, how things worked, and it was almost always in writing. And what I learned was when I sent that back with my detailed answer, if I put one question apart from everything else, just at the end, and it might have been, does that answer your question? Is that what you were hoping for? Did I miss anything? Something to give confirmation? Because first and foremost, it avoids miscommunication. They're either gonna come back, yes, it's what I needed, or, no, it's not. And then we can adjust that. But what I found was people would come back and not just say, yes, they'd say something like, oh, my gosh, that's so much more than I was expecting. Thank you so much. And all of a sudden, it was reinforcing my personal brand with them because they're putting pen to paper, so to speak, as they type this out, but they're thinking highly of me and what I've done that increased my personal brand. It opened up opportunities for me down the road whenever I was working with them. Because they were thinking, brian's the guy who always helps me. Right.

And you remember those things that you write down, even typing.

Exactly.

More than if you just thought it in the moment, oh, that was nice. And then you move. But when they take a second to answer, it makes that lasting impression. That's such a great point.

And I would. I didn't let it go at that, too. If they came back and they said something like, oh, my gosh, this is so much more than I expected. Thank you. I really appreciate it. I might have replied back and said something like, you know, it would have killed an ordinary man, but you were worth it. And they would do what you did. They would laugh a little bit and we'd get this little banter. But I always believed in, even before social media, that those little bits here and there, they add up to a lot. That when I finally was in front of them to do the sales training and things, it's like, oh, here's Brian. Yeah, I like him. He's helpful. He's got a good sense of humor. There was all this positive mojo that was happening and it totally transformed how they received the training that I was there to give.

Yeah, it just definitely helps you start on this great point. Instead of this obscure robotic, you know, people feel, I think often that in order to feel or look like a legitimate business correspondence that it has to be so stodgy and like, you know, mechanical. And yes, we may do that sort of a space, but there is so much value in of course, you know, liking being one of the top pieces here that people do business with, people that they like and want to be associated with and they find to be friendly and everything. You talk about that in the book. And so creating that rapport is so important in just also helping people. They get what they expect. So if they expect you're going to be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt, it just helps all across the board.

Yep. And on a very personal level too. It just made it a lot more fun for me because after I've helped them, we've had that banter and I see them, I am liking them more, I am looking forward to seeing them. And that's when they also sense that that's transformative too. Because now it's like, okay, he really likes us, he really cares for us. It opens them up to whatever it was that I might have to share, whatever I might have to ask.

Right. I have definitely used the power of the question in the end of emails. I think one of the really valuable places to put this is just I see people all the time that you put in this. Here are some times, please let me know what works for you. And when you leave it as that just sort of downer of a statement, it might sit in limbo for eternity where when you. Because then it feels like there's so much action on that and if you instead say which one of those is best for you, it's open ended to people feel like they need to. Where you need to fill the space. You have to answer a question in a way that a statement just feels much more final. And so opening that up is really valuable. I actually have recommended to people before and I use this tactic sometimes where there are some times where you know, you really want to help move this thing along. And there are some times where people are asking you for things and you think I need this to. I need them to prove that they really want to work on the project. Right. So like when I worked in marketing at the credit union, there would be people coming and asking for things all of the time. And sometimes Saying, that sounds like a great project. If you create the proposal and bring it back, we'll sit down and work on getting it together. Not many proposals come back. People have lots of ideas and don't actually want to create the thing, but the person who puts in the effort, you know, they're serious, and you can invest time there. And so I will sometimes use as a filter where if it's something that I'm not quite sure, you know, you can end it on that statement at the end of the email. But the ones that are really important, you know, I end with a question, and it definitely boosts response rates.

Yeah, that reminds me, and I didn't put this in the book, but the phrase as soon as can be really helpful because if you think about maybe your kids saying, can I go to the movies? Most. Most parents would respond, no, you have homework to do.

Right.

And then it's right.

But.

But to say, sure, as soon as you finish your homework, you know, can I do this? Sure, as soon as you do this. So then as a parent, you can say, I'm almost never saying no to you.

Right.

There is a condition with it. You know, do your part, do this thing, and the world is your oyster. I mean, that's not too much to ask. So it's not that they'll like it every single time, but at least you're building this momentum of, look, I'm not just shutting you down and saying, no, you can't. I'm saying, yes, you can, but there's a condition to make that happen. And now we'll see how much you really want.

Absolutely. I love that you include examples with children and, you know, on parenting and in business, which I think I use those sorts of examples all the time because, you know, the subconscious, I like to say, acts as a small child more often than not. And so being able to show those examples where it also helps people to really test out in a. In a space that feels safer.

Right.

Because we're already having these conversations with our kids all the time and so having some other opportunities helpful. And I really love these little tidbits of sort of those magic words that are really valuable. And it was actually one of the very first examples in the book. But this, what I would say is this magic word of. Because. So can you tell just a little bit about that word and how it can have impact?

Sure. The study I referenced was Ellen Langer, and it goes back a ways when you had to go to a photocopy shop to make photocopies and they did a study around whether or not people would allow somebody to get in front of them in line. And so if you were in the front of the line, I might have walked up and said, excuse me, I have five copies to make. May I go ahead of you? And under a condition like that, where they just laid out, may I go ahead of you? It was about 60% of the people said, sure. When the person would go up and say, excuse me, I have five copies to make. May I go ahead of you? Because I'm in a rush. All of a sudden, the compliance went to 94%. Almost everybody said yes to the person who said, because I'm in a rush. Now, thinking it was using the word rush, you know, they're in the rush. They tried it one more time, and the person would go up and they would say, excuse me, I have five copies to make. May I go ahead of you? Because I need to make these copies. When you analyze it, that's a bogus reason. Everybody's in line to make copies. And yet 93% of the people said yes. And the social psychologists theorized that we're so conditioned by the word because as we grow up, right? If you're a kid and you say, why? Mom or dad says, because I said so.

I hated that.

And we don't argue back, right? We just.

You.

You get in line. And so the thought process is we're just so conditioned by the word. So when we understand that in the story, in the book, too, is I told my daughter this when she was younger, when we'd go for coffee and we go to Barnes and Noble, I'd get coffee, and she'd get something else, and we would just talk about things. And I told her the story one day about the copy shop or the photocopy shop. And when we were watching American Idol sometime after that, and Ryan Seacrest was trying to get in line when the new Idol CD had come out, and he ends up at the end of the line, out of nowhere, she blurted out, he should have said because. And that really took me back, because for the moment there, I'm like, what are you talking about? And she said, the photocopy shop, dad. Don't you remember? Yeah. And I was like, wow, that was pretty cool. But. But for the listeners, you know, if you're going to. You need somebody to do something, don't tell them. Ask them. If you're going to ask them, say because. And give them a reason. And then the third thing I would say is also, don't ask on the drop dead date, if I need something from you, Melina, on Friday, I'm going to ask for it on Monday. Because you might say no. And I can say, I understand you're busy. Would you be able to get it to me before the end of the day Tuesday? And there's lots of studies that show when you make a concession, people reciprocate quite often by making concession too.

Right.

So you might say, I can't do it Tuesday. How about Wednesday? Could I get it to you Wednesday morning? That still works for me. So, yes, I would say, you know, if you're a leader or a manager, think about if you start changing away from statements into questions, you say because, and you give reasons, you make sure you have fallback positions in case you hear no, you are going to be so much more persuasive than the other managers and supervisors around you. Those are the managers who get things done. The people want to work for them because they're not being told what to do, they're asked. All kinds of great things come out of this. And this is where I see that professional success. That year by year, you're just making these incremental steps that are getting you further and further ahead of the people until all of a sudden you look back and you are the leader in that organization.

Yeah, I love it. And such great tips and tidbits. And like you said, those little actionable bits, which are all throughout your book, influence people, which we will of course have links to in the show, notes for everybody to be able to pick up their own copy. And what's the best way for people, if they wanted to get in touch with you or connect, where should we be sending them?

Two places. The first I would say is LinkedIn. So if you reach out to me on LinkedIn to connect, I accept connections. If you don't tell me that you heard me on the podcast, if you just, you know, hit the connect button and I get this generic, I'd like to connect with you, rest assured, you will get a response back from me saying, thanks for reaching out to connect. How did you find me? I like to understand why people are reaching out, where that traffic is coming from. But then it also allows for some social interaction because if somebody says, oh, I loved what you had to say on the brainy podcast, I'm going to say something positive about you. I'm going to talk a little bit about that. But now social media is social because we're having this, this exchange. The other place I would say, is my website which is influencepeople biz. If people go out there, there's lots of free resources. I've been on, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of podcasts. People could go back and listen to any of those. There's a lot of video. There are previews for my LinkedIn learning courses. I've been blogging for more than a decade. So if somebody wants to go deeper, there's all kinds of opportunities there on the website.

Awesome. Well, that is fantastic. And like I said, we'll link to the book, we'll link to your LinkedIn, which is where we got connected, and we will link to your website and hopefully people will take advantage of those resources and check out your book, Influence people. It is definitely value add for sure. And it references a lot of concepts that have been covered on this show. Like I said, reciprocity, social proof, scarcity, loss aversion. It's all, all in their anchoring relativity. There are tons of those. And I'll link to some of those episodes in the show notes as well for anyone who wants to check those out. So thank you so much again, Brian. It was wonderful to have you on the show and to talk about influence.

Thank you for having me on and I look forward to meeting you when you get out to Columbus, Ohio, someday soon.

So what got your brain buzzing as you learned about how to ethically influence people with Brian Ahern today? For me, Brian is full of gems and there are many things I've associated with him over the years, of course, one of them being post its. I love the post it example and how showing effort and thoughtfulness can pay off when done correctly. But those who have tried to shortcut and imitate over the years, you just don't have the same impact. It isn't just about the bright color, which can matter, but it's. It's also about writing those post its out by hand, especially today, right? I mean, who writes anything by hand anymore? If you can tell someone wrote something out for you, it stands out and means something. It's a little gift that makes you want to give back. I also love that he made the suggestion to slow down, go back and read any email before you send it and ask, is there anywhere I can be more. More persuasive? There usually is. And if you take the time to pause and look, you can uplevel your likelihood of success pretty dramatically. Perhaps it's a little reframe so you end on a question instead of a statement, or the way you framed your opening, or by removing the bulk and fluff. Whatever it is, the investment is usually worth it. And of course Brian is a stellar connector. As I mentioned at the top of the show, many guests who have been on the Brainy Business are direct or indirect referrals from him, including this upcoming Friday's guest Andy Lapata, who is a third degree referral that originated with Brian. Andy wrote a book and hosts a podcast both called Connected Leadership and you're going to love that conversation, I'm sure. If you aren't already subscribed to the Brainy Business podcast, now's a great time to do so. To ensure you don't miss that or any other episode, there are links in the show notes to make it easy, along with links to my top related past episodes and books including Influence People, Ways to Connect with Myself and Brian, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 432 and just like that, episode 43032 on ethical influence with Brian Ahern is done. Join me Friday for a brand new episode with Andy Lapada, author of Connected Leadership. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness. Com.