433. The Art of Strategic Relationships: A Conversation with Andy Lopata

Welcome to episode 433 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Andy Lapata. Ready? Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. In today's conversation, I'm joined by Andy Lapata, a specialist in professional relationships and networking. For nearly 25 years, Andy was called one of Europe's leading business networking strategists by the Financial Times and a true master of networking by the Independent and forums.com A very experienced international speaker and podcast host, Andy is the author of six books including the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring which he co authored with Ruth Gotian who was previously on the Brainy Business. He has been quoted in a number of other business books and regularly quoted in the international press. Andy is a former President of the Fellows Community and a two time board member of the Professional Speaking Association UK and Ireland and a Fellow of the Learning and Performance Institute, as well as a member of the Meetings Industry association and association of Business Mentors. He's also just one of 32 recipients of the PSA's top honor, the Award of Excellence. While we do talk about mentoring today, the conversation is more focused on investing in relationships and how to create a network of people whom you ask for help and who want to help you and who follow through on those intentions. Sound good? I can't wait to dig in on this with you and with him here today. But really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, including Andy's ways to get in touch with him and myself and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and at the brainy business.com433. Now let's jump right in. Andy Lapata, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Melina, thank you so much for having me on.

Yes, I am delighted to have you. This is one of the very few occasions where I met a guest in person first before having you on the show. So many people on the show I've never met in person and most is, you know, on the show. We end up being friends and then, and then get together so we met when I was in London recently and you were kind enough to take some time to sit down and chat. So thank you for that and for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Yeah, sure. Well, first of all, I really appreciated your dedication to your role. Flying to London to meet a guest before recording. I know that was the primary, primary reason you came over.

Of course.

Yeah. I'm a specialist in professional relationships. I've been involved in the world of networking and professional relationships for 25 years now. Have written six books on the topic, ranging from books about networking events and presenting yourself through referral strategies, and more recently, connected Leadership, which hopefully is fairly self explanatory. Just ask, which was about vulnerability and the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, also pretty self explanatory. And I have a podcast as well, the Connected Leadership podcast and blog for Psychology Today on Connected Leadership.

Love it. And like you said, it's, you know, perhaps self explanatory and would love to hear, you know, what does connected Leadership mean to you? Because you having the podcast and really in on that space. Right. So what, what does that mean in your eyes?

Yes. The way I describe it when guests come on my podcasts is, is that professional relationships underpin executive success. So to put that into plain English, you can't reach the top all on your own. You know, it's the old adage of standing on the shoulder of giants and so surrounding yourselves with the right people, developing the right relationships, building relationships in a strategic way without making people feel networked by you, nurturing those relationships and then being happy to leverage them. And when I'm delivering my talks and workshops, I talk about the three things we're looking for, which is relationships with people who are in a position to help us achieve whatever we want to achieve for our role or for our career or our business, having a deep enough relationship with those people so that they want to help us and then educating and helping those people so that they are able to help us rather than having to guess that we need help.

Yeah, well, and I think it was really, I was trying to decide which feels like the hardest of those kind of steps for people. Which it's funny because in my mind, I think that, you know, if you've invested in a relationship, then it feels like the hard part becomes. But I don't want to take them to feel like I'm taking advantage of them or like this has all just been, you know, a ruse to get them to help Me, eventually, you know, I started being their friend and 27 years ago, so that at this moment, I could make the ask.

That's a very patient approach.

Right, Right. Is that the hardest part or does it just sort of depend. Every stage is hard if you allow.

It to be, well, everything, everybody start again. Every stage is hard depending on your personality style. And I think that's a big part of it. So, for example, if you find the whole thought of I'm putting this in inverted commas on an audio podcast, using people, and I don't like that, that phrase. And that's how people who have a negative perception will see it. If you. If you don't like the idea of using people to help you achieve your goals, then you're going to find the building stage hard, surrounding yourselves with the right people, because your brain will not allow you or will resist you thinking about people in that kind of way. Once you get past that, you then have the nurturing stage. Now, what I find is that people who are more transactional in their approach, they're absolutely fine about identifying the right people and they're fine about asking for help, but they're not very good at nurturing the relationship. They're not very good at keeping in touch when they don't need anything, for example. So it's, you're useful to me now, therefore, I will ask you for what I want, and then I'll ignore you till I need you again. And then you have people probably similar to our first batch who will be good at saying, okay, I need to know these people and I can develop the relationship. But I struggle to ask. Now, these are very. There's a gender separation there because you have a distinction between masculine and feminine traits. Where a masculine trait is to be transactional and say, I need this. I need your support. I'll worry about the relationship later. A feminine trait will be more nurturing, more supportive, more about you, not me. And women in the workplace traditionally have often found it very hard to take praise or claim credit for work that they've done and also to ask for help and support for themselves. Easy to ask for it for other people, but not for themselves. So I think there's a lot of personality style that comes into this when you're looking at what people struggle with.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess I lined up with where we would expect me to say I would struggle right in the. When the. I know I should ask. I know the people would help. And it still feels. I won't say Excruciating. But it can be a little bit difficult maybe to make the ask when the time comes. So I totally get and appreciate that. So I know when we were together in London, you were sharing some stories about how you've both supported, you know, clients of yours in this process and personal experiences from you. Can you elaborate some more on, you know, how this works, sort of in action for people?

Yes. So it really depends on where someone is coming from. But the way that I work, it really depends, you know, it will vary client to client, but. So for example, if I'm working on a career program or talent development program will be very much focused. Everything I do is focused on what are you trying to achieve. And I think that's the easiest way to distill it down. What do you want to achieve? How can other people help you get there? And then it's all about bringing the two things together. So if I'm working on a career or a talent development program, we're looking at how are other people going to supercharge your journey through your career? And there's a piece of research, very well known piece of research that I always share on those programs and I share it on other sessions as well because I think it's translated, transferable beyond the promotion and career development space. But that's where it originated. And that's a piece of research by an author called Harvey Coleman, known as PI. And Coleman looked at the three key elements that go into promotion decisions, and he identified performance, image and exposure. And most people think that if I do a good job, I'll get promoted. Coleman identified performance as accounting for 10% of promotion decisions. Image was 30 and exposure was 60. And if you put that into plain English, it makes sense. Performance is doing a good job. Image is other people understanding the job that you do or the value that you bring. And exposure is the right people knowing about it. So if you're doing a really good job, but people don't understand the value that you bring, or the right people don't know about it, you don't go anywhere. So it makes sense when you look at it from that context or from that angle. Now, just as a aside, that doesn't mean you don't have to do a good job. You can't say, well, I've got 90% of it, I've got a 90% chance of promotion. That's the. I call it the crust or the base of the pie. Without that, all the filling falls through. But so when I'm working with people in that space, that's where we start from. And so you understand that we need to build a network of people around us who understand the value that we bring, who can actually help us to improve performance, performance, increase value, and target our message, that people take the right thing away for the job that we want to achieve. So to rephrase that, if I say in the next five years, I want to be a director of this company, and let's say I want to be the finance director, I can turn around and say, okay, what will they be looking for a finance director to bring to the table? How can I demonstrate that I can do that? And through a system of mentors, through a system of advocates, sponsors, through a system or a network of, I've said advocates and sponsors. I was using them in different terms. Introducers, just people to shout about you and people to give you insights and feedback and more. Then you can really tailor what you're doing and how that message is perceived. So that would be work in that space. I work a lot with salespeople, and in a sales space, you're looking more at external stakeholders. So clients, prospects, intermediaries, other people that can refer you because they're dealing with the same clients. And it's all about understanding why people would help you and how to get them to respond. Take meetings with you, how you can influence people who won't see you in person. So understanding six degrees of separation, understanding the conversations that are taking place when you're not in the room. One of the phrases I love is everyone knows it's not what you know, it's who you know. But actually it's who knows you and what they know and what they say about you when you're not in the room. So which goes back again to pie, performance, image and exposure. You may have the best product for them, but if they don't understand the value it brings or they've never heard of you, it doesn't make a difference. So it all. That's why I use PI in all these different contexts. So that'll give you a couple of ideas. I feel like I've rambled there, but hopefully.

No, I think it's great. I and I see a couple of different branches, you know, we can take off of there. One of the things that stood out for me, though, I'll start here at least, and we'll see how many of these avenues we get to take. You know, you said helping people to understand why people would want to help them. I think this, as we think about, you know, the Brainy business side of stuff and understanding, you know, how we frame things, how we think about others, brains, what motivates them. I would love if you can expand a bit on from what you've seen and the research you've done. You know, why does anybody want to help anybody else?

I talk about three reasons we help people and this particular theory comes from looking at internal relationships within an organization. So let's start there. The story I always share comes from one of my earliest jobs when I was in my early 20s and I worked in the English or British civil service and I was a social fund officer for the benefits agency. Now what that means is that people who were on welfare would come in and they would ask for a loan or a grant because they couldn't afford high value items like a cooker, a bed, a sofa, things like that. And the welfare state would support them with a loan or a grant to get that. And I was the person who made that decision along with a team of colleagues. We didn't have a lot of money. As you can imagine, government doesn't tend to give you a Laura Ashley sofa when you're looking for furniture. So very often people wouldn't be very happy with the decision that was given their way. Now, if people were in the office in person, they would be given the decision by our receptionist team and they often wouldn't like it and they would request a review. Reviews were initially taken by my team and then would go on to me. They were time consuming, they were confrontational by the very nature of the system and they were difficult and you didn't really look forward to them, let's put it that way. Twenty years later, I found out that when my decisions came up and people requested a review, as long as there was nothing that I had missed, that reception team would back my decision to the hilt. And they would say, actually no, this is the correct decision, you don't qualify for a review. But my colleagues, their decisions were reviewed all the time. And the reason was really simple. And it was that when I went down to reception, I would chat to the receptionists, I'd go to lunch with them, I would talk to them. Now, I'd never heard of networking at that stage. I didn't have a strategic reason to do that. I just hated my job and I just didn't want to be at my desk dealing with all these awful decisions. So I was just chatting away. I was in my early 20s, but the outcome was that I got the support that I needed. And I've shared that story a lot over the years. And it made me think about why do I hear so many people complain about the lack of support from other people in their same organization? People have an assumption that because we work for the same company or organization, other people will help me achieve my objectives, forgetting that those people are busy with their own stuff. And I came up with three very simple reasons why colleagues help each other. Number one is because they're told to. Number two is because there's something in it for them. And number three is because they like them. And that's what was happening in that job, that the receptionist team liked me, therefore they supported me. I didn't know it was happening. Their motivation in that case was extrinsic. It was about helping me. They weren't worried about what was in it for them, or they were told to. They just liked helping me. They liked helping me succeed. The first two are more intrinsic. It's about, well, what's in it for me? And that restricts the amount of help and support that you'll give. So the very simple answer to your question, why people would help others is because they like them, because they trust them, because they support them, because they make them feel good. And another exercise or an exercise I've run for many years in my workshops is to ask people to think about someone they've helped recently, personally or professionally, and why they did it. And then I've asked groups, you know, they discuss it in groups, and then those groups share what they've come up with and we capture them all at the front of the room on a flip chart. And financial inducements are hardly ever mentioned. And yet that's where a lot of companies go to incentivize people to support. But people will support others because they like them, because they trust them, because they will make them look good, because it will help benefit someone else. There are a range of different reasons, but money almost never comes up. But the top ones are because liking.

And trusting them, definitely. That's the. Of course, you know, most people listening will have heard of that. You know, the know, like and trust, which ties in with the pie and you know, everything we're, we're discussing here.

Bob Berg from Endless Referrals came up with know, like and trust. And he was absolutely spot on. So I now have the model of the seven stages of professional relationship that incorporates know, like and trust. So we start, once someone comes into our network, they'll recognize us. Stage one, then they'll know us, like us, trust us. Then we get to levels five and six, which I call the sweet spot where we want people to be. And that's they'll support us or advocate for us. And the difference between the two being if you're a supporter, I could pick up the phone and ask for your help, and you'd give it. If you're an advocate, I don't have to phone you. You're just recognizing opportunities and talking about me. And then level seven is friends. And it moves us away from a binary definition of networks. You're in my network or you're out and thinking instead of the journey we're going on with people once we're connected to them. So that as we go deeper in that relationship and forge a stronger bond, they're more inclined to want to help and support us.

Definitely. I'm curious, and I believe I know that based on what we've been talking about, where this. What your answer will be. But I think, you know, for many, it may feel like once you've gone beyond advocate into friend, that then it's, well, now I can't ask, like I was saying, right. Like, we've gone too far. And so it's, you know, again, feel like I'm taking advantage or something. There may be a problem as we get too high up on that space. And so we're often in business, you know, say, like, keep some distance between, you know, you shouldn't go to, you know, lunch with your team every day. You shouldn't be doing these sorts of. You have to keep separation from clients and not think of them as friends. What are your thoughts on that?

I think there are times when that is important. I work, for example, with pharmaceutical reps. It doesn't make sense for them to become friends with doctors, nurses, pharmacists. It would be inappropriate. And actually, when I work with them, my seven stages, of course, professional relationships effectively become six, because we take friend out, so we can't even gray out or acknowledge it exists. So there are certain times when it's inappropriate. But I have a number of good friendships with clients and former clients. I have another number of friends who are happy to help and support me when they need it, when I need it, and vice versa. Why wouldn't you help a friend? And why wouldn't you give a friend the pleasure of helping you? And it actually comes up quite a lot in my mentoring where people say, you know, this person could help me, but they're a friend. And I said, well, wouldn't they be the most likely to want to help you? I think there's A difference between doing direct business with friends and family and supporting each other. I think that doing direct business with friends and family can be a problem. And I've experienced that problem personally where a family member let me down in a big way, and I've had friends let me down in a big way. But when it's about some advice or support, an introduction, whatever it might be, we get pleasure from helping people we care about. So why don't we give them that pleasure ourselves by letting them help us?

Right. So I know you've. I've been wanting to ask a little bit about vulnerability loops and trust aspect, which I think also ties into the. Like you're saying, letting them know how they can help you. Right. So there's some openness of. So one, knowing what you actually need enough to know what they can do. And not just saying, I think, because if it does feel scary for people or whatnot, it feels like you're. You. Then say something really vague. Say, well, you know, if you. If you could ever help, sure, that'd be nice. Versus, hey, I know that, you know, so. And so would you be willing to make an introduction? Here's an email that you could send with some information or. Right. Helping make that easy and them knowing exactly what they can do to help you. And so, yeah, there's the being open to it vulnerability side. And then how do we get better at knowing what to ask for and making it more likely that that person will say yes?

Yeah. So taking vulnerability first. A lot of people don't ask for help because they think it makes them look vulnerable. The problem with that, well, there's actually two things. Number one is it equates vulnerability with weakness. Vulnerability isn't weakness. Vulnerability is a strength. It takes strength. It takes courage to say, I don't know or I need your help. Sometimes it's only small things, but we're still not asking for the help. But to get over that and show that we don't think we're perfect and we acknowledge we're not perfect, I think makes us look stronger in other people's eyes because they know that takes courage.

And.

And you become stronger as a result of getting the support you need in theory. Otherwise, why are you asking for it? And the second thing is that if we take away that vulnerability equals weakness. And we say asking for help makes you look weak, well, then that's down to you. That's up to you. If I turn around to you and said business is terrible, I keep losing clients because I don't do A good job, I don't know what I'm doing. Can you introduce me to someone? I look weak. If I turn around to you and say, I've just finished a project with Coca Cola, it's been tremendously successful, they're delighted with me, I know I can do the same for Pepsi Cola and I know you've got a contact there. Do you think it might be helpful for them to have a conversation with me? That doesn't sound weak at all, does it? It comes from confidence and inner strength. So it's how you position it, if you want to think of that.

You.

In the second part of your question, you asked about how we ask in a way that makes it easy for people to help us. And that's the key thing. It's your job to make it easy for people to help you. So the worst thing you can do, which is what most people do, is say, anyone who. Anyone who needs this. You're basically saying, I can't be bothered to do the work. And think about it. You do it. Anyone gets you? No one. And the classic example of this, I used to run business networking organization events many years ago where people would ask for referrals. Some people might know bni, we were their largest competitor in the UK at the time, and everyone would do a minute presentation in meetings every week and ask for referrals. And we had people in there who would save you money on your phone bills. And they would stand up and say, I want to talk to anyone you know who's got a telephone, thinking they were being really clever, because everyone knows someone that knows people with a phone. So I'll get lots of referrals. They got none because it was too broad an ask. And I, when I ran the training, I said to them, you know, ask, who do you know who's got an elderly parent who lives alone at home? Because you can make a really strong case as to why lower phone bills would be important to them. And if anyone knows someone, in fact, if you're listening to this and you know someone who fits that bill, you're thinking about them right now. I am. So what it does, it paints a picture in people's minds of someone they know. Soon as they say, see someone they know in their mind's eye, you're halfway there. And the phrase I use is paint a portrait, not a crowd scene. And what I'll often do in my talks is I will ask people, I'll ask someone in the audience or the group what football team they support or which then that's soccer to you, but that would be wrong. Or which pop star, music star they're a big fan of. We've got Taylor Swift has been encamped in Europe for most of the summer. So if someone said Taylor Swift, I will ask them first of all to picture Taylor Swift. I'm in London playing at Wembley Stadium, which she's been doing this summer. And I will ask them to picture the crowd at Wembley Stadium. And I will say, what do you see? And nine out of 10 people will see a blur, a massive faces. They might see the Wembley arch, might see the stands, but in terms of people's features, they won't make out features unless they know someone in the crowd. When I say picture Taylor Swift, I mean, I'm not the biggest Taylor Swift fan in the world, but I can picture her. As soon as I say that, that's what I mean about paint a portrait, not a crowd scene. And as soon as you see that picture of an individual in your mind's eye, and it could be an individual, it could be a company logo, it could be a building in downtown Seattle, whatever it might be, then you're halfway to getting the support that you need.

And so I think what's really interesting about that is absolutely love the framing on there. And like you're saying the, how you say it matters too. If we go back to saying, oh, if you know anybody that maybe can help, let me know. Right? Well, okay, thanks. I'm not going to think about that again. And especially like you said, for BNI or any of those networking, when you're one of everybody in a row saying their one minute pitch, if I am feeling no motivation in that moment, I can't think of somebody. I think I'll do that later. But meh. And you also haven't told me anything about you, right. In that process. And the like anybody who's got a phone, like, okay, well, you don't really care. You just want to sell stuff. But like you said in that the aging parent and somebody who's living alone that feels like you care about helping people, right? And I want to help you help people. And my friend has this issue and we've, we're just talking about it, I should tell them, right? I know somebody. Like you said, it's easy to make those points of connection when we think about, you know, on the customer side of things. And you would say, well, but if they're, you know, they're Taylor Swift fans, so like we know something about them, that's enough. Right? So anybody who likes Taylor Swift or would go to the concert, like, I know something about this as a person, that's enough to classify them down. But what I'm hearing there, like you said, that's the sea of people. So that's too big Taylor Swift fans. There are too many Swifties out there for it to be narrowed down.

Well, it depends who you're asking. If you ask my mum, no disrespect to my mum, but if you ask my mum who do you know who's a Taylor Swift fan, she'd probably come up with my two nieces, you know, because her network isn't awash with millennials. If you ask my two nieces, who do you know who's a Taylor Swift fan, it's probably too broad. So that comes into it as well.

As we're thinking, I'm going to keep it to the networking side of things for the sake of career development. And let's say if you're needing to find a mentor, right, we'll. We'll transition into this space knowing, of course, we got connected through Ruth Gotian, who was connected to me through my friend Kwame Christian, who's been on the show. And I know we've talked, talked about him. So thank you to both of them for this introduction. And also Bob Lefkowitz, who was recently on the show from, when this comes out, was an introduction from Ruth. And so that, you know, networking, connection, support is a real thing. I'm a big fan of that relationship building.

Bob and Kwame are great as well. Great guests.

Yes, yes. And, you know, Kwame is someone who actually was introduced to me, I believe, from someone else who's been on the show. And then it's like, you know, we just keep on going through on these here, Brian Ahern. And so as we, like, step back and back, so many good connections and things that come from that. And Kwame, I would say, definitely is a friend and advocate and all the things at this point, and vice versa. So it's cool to see how that all comes together. But. So you and Ruth wrote a book together about mentoring and mentorship. And so if we're looking for asking someone to mentor us or to, if you're in the market, how do you know when you need a mentor? And then how do you help find that motivation to bring them on board?

I'm smiling because the day we're recording this, I've just posted a video on social media. The best time to get a mentor. And it's a group of Olympic and Paralympic athletes. And the standout quote is the best time to get a mentor is 20 years ago. The next best time is today. It's a play on a very well known quote. How do you know when you need a mentor? When you want to move forward in your career, when you want to move forward in your role? I said earlier, successful people don't do it on their own. And a mentor is that support that you need. And you're never too early in your, too early a stage in your life or your career to get a mentor. I'm mentoring a student who's probably just turned 18. Been mentoring her for just over a year. She was 16 when she approached me. She knows she wants to achieve things and she wants support now to do it. There is one of the biggest mistakes is that we think mentoring is just for early careers or it's just for people on the fast track program or just for people looking at board level roles or executive level roles. It's not, it's for everyone. It can be for everyone. So when do you need a mentor? I think I would paraphrase that, that answer and say the first, the best time. Is this worth today? Sorry, it's, you know, I'm trying to paraphrase that in my, in my head. The best time is when you're going on a journey. The second best time is now because you're already on the journey.

Well, and just investing in the, you know, I, I've always said that, you know, business is a long game, relationships are a long game. You want to be putting the, the goodness and support out there. So by the time that you're ready to ask a question or you need something, people want to get back to you. That's the reciprocity piece. Right. And so would you say that people should request for a mentor first or should they offer to be a mentor?

Well, first of all, wonderful quote I heard many years ago that was, I saw attributed to a friend of mine, although she, she can't remember saying it. And it's make friends when you can, not when you need them, which was attributed to Carol Stone, who's the very well known former BBC producer. There's also a famous book, Dig youg well before youe're Thirsty, exactly the same concept. So absolutely. In that case, it's a difficult question to answer because I don't think you wait to do one until you've done the other. So let me take the two things separately. Let me start with the second one first. And that is, should you offer to be a mentor, don't wait until you've got gray hair until you to make yourself available to mentor. And I'm changing the language a little bit. Let people know you're available to help and support and offer advice and whatever it may be. Don't put yourself forward and say I want to be your mentor unless there's a really strong reason to do so. Because that could put someone in a very awkward position, as can the reverse question. But just turning around to someone and say can I help you with your journey? Do you need any advice and support? Do you want to bounce anything off me? Is a softer way of putting yourself there and letting people know that you're available. Taking the first question and actually probably wrapping them together because I think it works both ways, is let it evolve. When we wrote the book, Ruth and I disagreed on very little. There were a couple of things we had slightly different view on. One of them is that Ruth doesn't believe you should ever ask anyone to be your mentor. Dorie Clarke, who you may know very well known management thinker and writer, agrees. A number of people I know agree with that and I completely understand where they're coming from. If you ask someone to mentor you, if they don't have the capacity, it can put them in a very awkward position. But I've asked people to mentor me and sometimes they said yes and sometimes they said no. And if I offer the alternative approach, Robert Cialdini in Influence the Power of Persuasion, very famous book says that if you ask for something big and people say no, the law of reciprocity says that they will want to give you something smaller. And a classic example of that is when I asked someone to be my mentor. He was way too busy, but he invited me to come on his two day course, which I did. And then he's been there for me ever since. Whenever I've had a question or needs some support and he's always been there for me. So he is my mentor. He just wouldn't call me, call himself that. And he hasn't taken on a formal obligation to commit to do so. So that's one thing. But I've also. So he said no to me. Other people have said yes. I've had people ask me to mentor them. The student I mentioned before when she was 16, said, Would you mentor me? I was honored to be asked. She didn't even know me at the time. It was at an event for young people and supporting young people. What was lovely about it? I mean, first thing is that what she wanted to achieve was very much around anti bullying and other similar social issues for kids. And I really could get behind that and something I feel strongly about. But then I found out that she goes to the sixth form college. That's the pre university stage, the same sixth form college I did, which is a phenomenal coincidence considering this event was nowhere near there. It was in a completely different city in a different part of the country. But that was really nice. But no. I'm flattered when I'm asked as long as people are okay when I say no, and I'll say no more often than I say yes. But if people don't ask, they're not as likely to get me as their mentor. Be okay with a no. I take on two pro bono mentees at any time. People can pay for me to mentor them as part of my service offering. That's another area where Ruth and I disagree because that's quite a British thing. In the US it's less the case that people pay for mentoring, but it's part of my service offering. But pro bono, I'll take on two people at any one time and once they're in, they're in. So if they're with me for three years, there's not a space.

So then how do you go about? Do you nudge your mentees to kind of roll off or is it there you're with them until they choose to leave and end that kind of formal relationship? How does that work?

Well, I'll be honest. If it's pro bono, particularly if it's pro bono, the responsibility lies on their shoulders. Occasionally, if I think I haven't heard from them for a while, what's happening, I'll nudge because I think that's about a mentor taking interest in the mentee. But I'm not going to go out of my way. I'm not going to push. I'm doing this as a favor, but I am invested in their success. So I will remind them I'm there and remind them that I am supportive of them. If they're sitting there taking a slot and no one has asked me, then no damage is being done. So if they don't want to talk to me for nine months, but no one is looking for that slot, then that's absolutely fine. If someone comes and approaches me and asked me to mentor them and I would like to, and I haven't heard from one of my mentees, then I would nudge.

Yeah, that's good. I like that. Right. It's the. And because you already have a formalized rule that you've set, right. Like, you know, you can handle two people at a time. You're able to dedicate what they would need. If the moment arises, you can invest in them at the level that you would feel good about versus you being spread too thin. Right. So knowing how much you can offer and provide and what that can look like.

Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's so, you know, I mentioned earlier, it's flattering to be asked. So it is so tempting to just say yes to everyone. And actually it's one of the hardest things, but you have to learn to say no. And I have even said no when I haven't had to pro bono at points where I've been overwhelmed with work. That has to be my priority. You know, the. The co author of my second book, Peter Roper, came up with a wonderful phrase and he talked about. And I can share this because he's written a book about it. He's been very public about it at the time. We wrote the book together. You're going back nearly 20 years now. I didn't know it at the time, but he was going through bankruptcy. And his phrases, fill the fridge. And he said, your number one priority is to fill the fridge. So that comes first, fill the fridge, then you can make time for other people. There's a more commonly used analogy or metaphor by motivational speakers. I've heard so many use it. And that is when you're on an airplane and they give the safety drill and I can see you nodding already. You know where I'm going with this. They always say, put your mask on first, your oxygen mask on first. Because if you can't breathe, you can't help the baby that's with you. And so you have to put your oxygen mask on first. And it's the same with this. You know, focus on the work that you are getting paid for before you start being super generous with your time. You know, even when my business has really struggled, I've always tried to pay it forward and support others, but ultimately feel the fridge comes first.

Right. And I think there's a balance, like you said of the own oxygen mask first. And we don't have to wait until we've, you know, got 87 fridges that are fully stocked at our 10 mansions or whatever it is. Right. Like there's the. In the. Don't wait till you have the gray hair to be a mentor. Right? But you can be supportive of people. You can be kind and generous. There's a. You Know a reason we end every episode of the show with be thoughtful. Right? Like we can be doing a little something even if you can't mentor and know that someday you, you may need something. And so we can be, be thoughtful to that for sure.

And there's a wonderful alternative to know you should all be always be willing to decline if it's not right fit for you for the reasons I've outlined and more. But instead of saying no, say no, but, no, but I know someone who you should talk to. No, but I suggest you try this. Or as Paul did, the mentor I was talking about earlier. No, but why don't you come on my course? So offer them something else. Offer them an alternative. You can still be supportive even if you're not willing to take the commitment.

Right. And sometimes, you know, it's wanting them to show that they really are willing to put in the some work. Right. There's a little bit of earning it, not just asking for the thing. And it's, it is amazing how when you can, in running a marketing department, people would ask for stuff constantly. Right. So we, we need a brochure, we need this update on the website. I need this, I need that, we need this program and that, blah, blah, blah. And you feel the weight of all those asks, right? People need them and our team has to be putting all these things together. Once you start to say that sounds really interesting. Here's the form to put together a proposal document. And once you've completed this, it's, you know, couple pages. When you've filled out this information, bring it back, we'll have a meeting and discuss, you know, the viability of that. It's amazing how many of those requests go away.

With mentoring. You know, even if you do have the capacity, turn around and say, look, I'm really busy at the moment, but can you drop me another line in two months? And then you find out whether it's, you know, very often. So I will, amongst my pro bono will often be members of the Professional Speaking association, of which I'm a Fellow, and I believe in the obligation of Fellows, the responsibility of Fellows to mentor associates and members. But very often people will come up to me after I've delivered a presentation at a regional meeting and say, will you mentor me? It was like, well, if you say come back in a couple of months, that's really going to test whether they're carried away by their enthusiasm of having heard you in the moment or whether they're going to stick with it.

Yes. So word to the wise, you know, I do something very similar where, you know, give a card and say, you know, people ask if I have advice or thoughts on things and. And say, you know, here's my card. Please, you know, connect with me, send me an email to follow up. So few people actually do, and so be the one that follows up. That's a huge step because, I mean, I would say more. It's, you know, more than 80% that don't. People just put it in the big pile of stuff that they don't do. So taking the time to ask that first question can be hard. When someone tells you to follow up, believe them and, you know, make the note, do the thing.

Couldn't agree more. I mean, when I used to focus more on networking skills, the biggest sin was failure to follow up. And I find it quite offensive because if you're not going to follow up with me, why have I just spent five minutes talking with you when I could have been talking to someone who would follow up and would be committed to building a relationship? If you're not going to follow up, you're taking up my time. You're taking up potentially other people's time or opportunity to have a conversation, and you're wasting your own as well.

Yeah, definitely. Well, as we look to close out the show, I've really enjoyed our conversation. Is there one thing that you wish I would have asked that you would love to share about these days?

No, there's nothing that I wish it asked. I always enjoy these conversations, and I enjoy not knowing what I'm going to be asked because it just leads in different directions. If I was going to share one thing, I've just published a new model of my thinking in my Psychology Today blog, and it's something that's come from so many of my own podcasts and the conversations that we've had. There's just a topic that keeps coming up time and time and time again, and it works in mentoring, and it works in sales, and it works in internal relationships, and it works everywhere and everything that I talk about, and it's curiosity. So the model that I've written about, I've called the Curiosity Cycle. And I've looked at the interconnectedness between curiosity, listening, authenticity, and vulnerability and basically said that if you go into a conversation with a curious mindset that leads you to more active listening, if you are putting your agenda to one side and instead focusing on the other person and being genuinely curious and actively listening to what they're saying, you're going to engage more authentically with them. If you engage more authentically with them, it creates the space for both parties to be more vulnerable in the conversation. And vulnerable doesn't have to be, oh, let me tell you everything that's wrong or everything, I don't know. Vulnerable just means taking your mask off and being human. And then if you are in that vulnerable space, then guess what, you become more curious. So that's the sort of newest model that I've been working on. And it's something that really intrigues me because it just. It's not something that I would have said, oh, let me write about that, but for the fact that it had come up in so many conversations on so many different but related topics. Curiosity lies at the heart. So much that we do. And one of my podcast guests, Daniela Lander, who was a senior learning leader at Google, said she talked about having LQ as well as IQ and EQ and so on, and LQ is learning quotient. And she said, step away from trying to be the smartest person in the room and be the one who learns the most. And I have quoted that so many times since because I think that's incredibly powerful.

Oh yeah, for sure. I am a big fan advocate. Totally agree with the questioning and curiosity piece I have. I talk about it in all the books, but I remember specifically in my first book, I have a whole a section that's called Be a Curious Questioner. Right? Like you just gotta ask because you want to learn, because you're actually interested in the other person. Just be in the moment, you know, focus on people and just be about that. So I think that is so, so helpful. I look forward to checking out that article and we'll, you know, send it along. We'll make sure to include it in the show notes for the episode for sure. Because I know everyone listening here on the Brainy Business is going to want to read that one as well. So thank you so much for that. For everyone who I know is so excited to learn more about you, to follow you and maybe to, you know, connect to you about services. Perhaps for those, you know, paid mentoring. What. What's their best path to connect and learn more?

Well, the. Probably the easiest link to share is my link tree because it's got my website, my books, my Psychology Today blog, my podcast, my social media profiles, et cetera. And that's linktree. So it's L, I, N, K, T, R, E, Andy Lapata, L, O, P, A, T, A. And with a surname like mine, I'm not hard to find.

Perfect. Well, we will make sure to link to that in the show notes and you know, some easy ways for people to get connected with you. So thanks again Andy for joining me today and back when I was in London a few weeks ago. It was really great to connect with you then and of course today here as well.

It's been a real pleasure. Thanks Melina.

Thank you again to Andy Lapata for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For me, I really love the reciprocity aspect of the conversation with Andy and how you can be giving a bit all the time as you grow your supporters, advocates and friends in business, knowing that it is a good practice anyway and that it'll pay off eventually. But you also need to put in the work to get those payoffs. It is good to ask for help and you're more likely to get people to say yes to those requests if you know what you need and ask in a way that makes it easy for that person to help you. And if you aren't all take and no give, it really comes full circle which is at the center of reciprocity. I also of course love his final thought. He shared about the relationship between curiosity, listening, authenticity and vulnerability and how they can all help you in networking and relationship building. Such great points. And I have of course linked to that article he mentioned for you in the show Notes along with links to my top related past episodes and books including Connected Leadership and the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, Ways to Get in Touch with Andy and Myself, and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 433 and thank you again to Andy Lapata for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then. Thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Molina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.