491. Unlocking the Power of Storytelling in Business

Welcome to episode 491 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Karen Eber, author of the Perfect Story. Ready?

Let's get started.

You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here's your host, Melina Palmer.

Hello. Hello everyone.

My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. You have likely heard that telling stories is key to getting buy in inside and outside of business. And it's one thing to know that it matters and a whole other thing to create and share stories. I mean, what are you supposed to do if storytelling doesn't come naturally to you? Are you just stuck? And what counts as a story anyway? Does it have to be a full hero's journey and a cast of characters to count? Who can remember all that, assuming you know how to craft the thing in the first place? And what if my story isn't perfect? Is it better to have an imperfect story or no story at all while you work on creating and finding that perfect one for your situation? In today's conversation, I'm joined by Karen Eber. Karen Karen is an award winning and bestselling author of the Perfect Story, a TED and keynote speaker and global consultant who has educated and inspired over 3 million people globally. And she's here to answer those questions and more on today's episode. As a former Head of Culture and Chief Learning Officer, she's now the CEO and chief storyteller of Eber Leadership Group, helping Fortune 500 companies build leaders, teams and culture one story at a time. Her work has been featured on Fast Company, NPR Inc. Forbes, Entrepreneur, Quartz, MSN, and Business Insider. She frequently delivers leadership and storytelling keynotes and workshops to companies, conferences and universities around the world. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Karen and myself, and more. It's all within the app you're listening to and@the brainybusiness.com 491. Now let's jump right in. Karen Eber, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

What a joy to be with you again.

Oh my goodness. Yes, this is, I was joking. You know, it's like take, you know, the Last one was 75, so I'll say this is take 192. It feels like we've had every possible technical issue and thing going on as we've been working to make this happen. But today is definitely the day. Even if it's not this take, everyone's going to get to hear from you for sure. So for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

You bet. I am Karen Eber and I own Eber Leadership Group, which is a company that works with Fortune 500 on how their building their leaders, teams and culture one story at a time. I come to this from a 20 year career on the other side of the desk where I was a head of culture and a chief learning officer in companies like General Electric and Deloitte and found that stories were such an important way to build leaders and shape culture. In GE, I was heading up a business that had 90,000 employees in 150 countries. And to get people to shape culture, each person has to think about what does this mean for me and what do I want to do? And I found stories connected them to experiences they had never had before and created that reflection. So as I moved forward and did a TED talk and wrote a book, I was getting a lot of questions on how do you tell stories? How can we do this in a way that feels genuine and appropriate for work? And so that's a big part of the work that I do today of helping build memorable communicators.

Oh, I love that. And we talk about storytelling a lot here on the show. It's so important in any sort of compelling arguments, not the right word, right, but just positioning as you're talking to people. If you want them to remember what you're talking about, if you want them to be able to make any sort of decision, it all really comes down to the right so story. And so, you know, your book is called the Perfect Story. So is there. Does everyone need to find their one perfect story or, you know, for any situation to say, I definitely know this is it and if you miss, then too bad, right? There was just one and you didn't get it.

It's a playful title, I find. I find a lot of leaders are allergic to storytelling because they think like, I don't know what story to tell or I don't have an idea or I don't want to share something personal. And there is no perfect story like sitting on an end cap in the grocery store that you just pick up and tell. There's people that tell stories that seem effortless put a lot of effort into making them good. The perfect story is about taking your ideas and making them perfect, working them through a process so that whomever you're telling it to can connect with it. So there's hope for everyone. Everyone can be a great storyteller, right?

And of course, waiting for the perfect story pretty well guarantees you're not going to find it, right? It's. It's not going to work out if you waste, you know, that time trying to make that happen. And, you know, what about for all the people, like you said, the, you know, leaders that are allergic to storytelling? What about people that say, like, either I'm boring or my work is boring and there's no way to make it more interesting? What do you say to them?

First, we are too close to our stuff to recognize that every person feels that it's the same thing you go through when you're updating your resume or LinkedIn and you're like, I don't know. I don't know what to put because we're so close to it. So, of course that's a natural reaction. But when you think you're boring, you just have to dig into details because then you start to find so many fascinating things. There's a cleaning company called Tennant that they sell industrial cleaning supplies to, like, schools. And industrial cleaning supplies are not really the most sexy thing to market. You know, they're not really the thing that everybody's like, you know, we should buy an amazing industrial floor cleaner. And so you think, like, okay, inherently, this is a product that is born. What do we do? But they started a contest for schools to nominate the unsung heroes, which are the janitors and people that are helping keep the schools clean. And each school would write a nomination of why they were nominating their janitor. And the contest was called Custodians were key, and they chose winners and would tell the story of these custodians. So the first year in elementary school had nominated this custodian by the name of Chris Cantor. He spent his lunches, like, teaching students how to make bird boxes and benches and used tools. And he was really just teaching them, how do you do things together? How do you have teamwork? How are you connecting? And they wrote this really beautiful nomination that had him win the award. Schools won money, all of that. But what Tennant really did is they uncovered so many stories about their product by digging into the people that were using it and the impact that it had had on their lives in the schools. And so it seems like a boring, unsexy thing. Now has endless stories that they can use. An even cooler tenant called each of the schools that participated to thank them for participating. And before the contest, the people that owned the budget, the administrators, they could not tell you who were the cleaning supply company. Like, there's no way they would have known. But those calls where they thank people ended up converting at a 30% rate of people then going and building, buying these things. And so there is no such thing as a boring story. It is just not digging into enough of the details that people can connect with.

I love that. And, you know, we think about even, you know, the news does their, you know, teacher of the week thing, right? And it's, you know, it would be easy to say there are lots of teachers out there. And so, like, they're all the same, right? That's. That maybe there's not an interesting story. But of course, they're unique people doing amazing things. They all have a really cool story, even whether it's cleaning supply or teaching or anything else. And so being able to, you know, take that opportunity to look a little bit deeper. I love the nominating someone, right. So it's easier to maybe tell someone else's story story than it is to tell your own story. So does that come into some of the advice you would give for people as they're getting ready to start to incorporate stories into their work? So it might be hard to find something to say about myself or maybe I hate the idea of talking about myself and so I should look to, you know, showcase someone else or not necessarily.

Yeah, It'll depend on each person in each situation. And there's pros and cons to both sides. Really what you want to do is amass a list of potential story ideas before you ever need to tell a story. So you may think of a contest you were a part of or you may have heard a story about someone else that was really interesting. And you want to capture this. You want to start a list of random things. I was reading an article in the end of last year that was talking about how after Mount St. Helens erupted many years ago in the 80s, for one day, for a few hours, scientists decided to bring some gophers in and have them dig down beneath the sediment to get to the rich nutrients that were needed to revitalize this area that was covered in pumice rock. And for a couple hours one afternoon, they brought. They flew in a few gophers in a sectioned area and they had them dig. And that was that now, 40 years later, the places where those gophers dug are lush and the places that were untouched are barren, and they're still. Still no growth. And so to me, I read this article, and I'm like, how fascinating. And there's endless things you can do with this about how, you know, small things can have huge impact or faith or whatever. You know, you can turn this into so many things. So to me, I read that it was interesting, and I added it to my list of potential ideas. That may be a list that includes your professional experiences or personal experiences. The goal in capturing a list is not to edit yourself on where am I going to use this? Or who am I going to tell it to? But instead to give yourself an inventory. Because then when it's time to tell a story, it's so much easier to go to the list and ask yourself, which one of these will help me build whatever idea I want? Then to come up with something on your own. If you're telling a story about yourself, it can feel vulnerable. You can question, how much detail do I go into? And because it's our own experiences, we often want to take you back to that moment and tell you every single detail that's happening and how we felt. And it may be important to pull it back just a little bit, to make sure you're giving things that are meaningful for the people that are listening. But when you're telling someone else's story, our tendency is to almost be too sterile, like a GPS that's giving directions as you're driving somewhere. Like, this happened, then this happened, then this happened. We have to work a little harder to bring people into the experience of it and what. What people are feeling. So you can do either. It's ultimately thinking about the opportunity you have to tell a story and what you want the audience to take from it, and then building your story to do that.

I love that. And I. I really am a fan of making the list of ideas, right? Because as someone who writes a lot and who reads a lot, one, you have a lot of thoughts. We read thing. And like you said, that is fascinating. I love this thing about the gophers, right? And it's easy to. To think, I'll remember that. You will not. You will not remember that when the moment comes that you need a story, your brain is going to be somewhere else and is not going to go get whatever that is. If you don't have that list to be able to go to, you won't remember all those options. But where's the balance then. So knowing you know, that list could be ages and ages and ages long and all these stories have opportunities to do something for us. And so in this space of, you know, if you just write gophers, that's not going to be helpful when you go back to the list because you might forget what gophers means if you're picking this up, you know, three years from now. But like you said, don't want to burden yourself with having to say and I can use it for this and like craft it into a story in the moment. So do you just link back out to the original article in that case? Do you write a few thoughts about like the, you know, Gopher's Mount St. Helens made me think about do like a bulleted list about some things that came to mind for you or key details, you know, what's the way to make it. So it's not a burden to add things to the list. But it's also usable when the time comes that you need a story.

It will vary for each person. I'll tell you what works for me is I usually get my ideas on a walk and just like you said, you don't want to tell yourself, oh, I'm going to remember this when I'm done because I did that a few times. Like I'm going to remember this when I'm back to my laptop. And then of course I don't and I'm wasting all this energy trying to remember the idea instead of coming up with ideas. So I use just a app or a notes file on my phone to dump them in when I'm moving, when I want to capture it. And then I will often have a bigger spreadsheet that I keep that long multi year list of stories. And I will depending on what it is, it's usually a phrase. So for this one it would be gophers, Mount St. Helens. And I might include a link to the article so that I to an article so I could refresh my thinking later. I keep a file of pictures for me. Sometimes that's enough and maybe in the notes part I'll note it. My list is everything from my personal experiences to stories that I heard about other people to I'll hear some random fact that is fascinating to me. Like in cars, airbags are designed through origami to fit in a certain way so that they can open at maximum velocity velocity and so the study of how they had to fold the airbags in such a way to be able to fit and still allow for safety measures there's something fascinating about that to me. No clue how I'm going to use it. It's been there a few years. I may never use it, but I have this dumping grounds where there's enough of a phrase so that when I read it, I recognize what it means and what the story is. I personally don't try to categorize it as this story can teach a lesson about trust, or this story can have a takeaway about this. I just use the idea. And then when it's time to tell a story and I know who I'm telling it to and I've worked through the process of who the audience is, I go to that list and I ask myself, which one of these stories will let me build an idea around whatever that outcome is that I want? And because I haven't categorized it, I can see how I might take this story about gophers and turn it into a message that is meaningful. Because so many stories just have so many potential outcomes. So you want to have a dedicated place to capture them. You want to write down enough so that when you come back to it, you remember what it is, and then if it's helpful for you to categorize, great, do it. Otherwise, just, you may want to note how you're using it as you check them off so that when you come back, you remember and have this helpful inventory that teaches you what works for you.

I love that.

When you were saying the thing about the airbags, and I think, oh, my gosh. I know this because our mutual friend Aaron Willis gave a presentation and talked about the origami airbags and the whole story of it. And so potentially, she had that story because of you, and now it's like full circle that it's coming back again or maybe not. And I don't know. I know, right? Or like, she told it and that's how you heard it and how this comes in. But I very much remember that story. And as this comes in, and I remember as she was giving her presentation, great, great work, Aaron. You know that it definitely resonated with me. And I remember where I was in the room, and I remember the talk, and I can visualize the slides in a way that if it was just making the point, I don't know that I would remember the point she was making in the same way. Right. So having the way that ties in is so big.

Yeah. And what you said is so important. You noted how it resonated for you, and that's really what you're looking for. Of Whether it's personal or professional or someone else's story, you're looking for something that you feel excitement or connection or interest. You're feeling something toward it. Because if you dread it, that's going to come through in your story. But if you're fascinated by it, then that's going to come through in your story. And so notice those things that you pay attention to. The best thing is to leverage prompts. So think about your personal experiences, like, what's that thing you should have gotten rid of, but you just can't part with what was your first concert? Firsts are always a great place. So you start asking yourself, you start working through this list of prompts, and you see what comes up and you start capturing ideas and you start going through your professional ones, which you think of any job interview about. Best day, worst day, challenge on a project, it starts to surface all this stuff. Your idea capturing is a little slow at first, but once you start, it builds momentum and you're going to start to remember all of these things and you'll have this huge list. So first thing is just have that place, capture them. Notice what you're paying attention to, and notice what you have enthusiasm toward, because that's going to make the difference. The secret, though, in this list is that often when it's time to tell a story and you're going to say, okay, I know that I want to help my audience. Let's say we're going to tell a story that has to do with trust. I know I want to help my audience come away feeling a sense of trust and an idea around trust. You're going to go through your list and say, which one of these will help me do this? And often it is nothing on your list, but the act of having the list prompts a whole new idea that you didn't have down there and helps you come up with something you never would have thought of.

Yeah, definitely. It just gets those juices moving, right? Like as they, you know, with writing, there's the, you know, the crappy first draft sort of deal. Just do something. And that idea that, you know, it's hard to edit the blank page, hard to get started. So if you are just revisiting something you thought already, it makes it easier to kind of jump in on those. So someone has their list, right? They've got some ideas. So we, of course, need to know what we are trying to accomplish, right? What we want the audience to do, where they are now, where we want them to be at the end of our Talk or, you know, message. As we're coming into this, I have an idea of what I think my story might be. How do I go about telling it properly, like you said? So I'm not the person who either one doesn't give enough details, and it. It's very scattered. I'm not really sure what the point is. You didn't bring it home for me. Or you don't want to be the person who says, well, on the last March, or like, maybe it was February. You know what? I think it was actually in June. And, you know, focuses on all the wrong stuff. Like, how do we create a good story for people?

Yeah, well, the first is don't. Don't downplay the role of the audience. And really, so storytelling is about building an understanding in someone's mind. And so your story should form this building block of what you want them coming away with. So when you're thinking of your audience, get really clear on what do I want them to think and feel? Because stories are an exchange of emotion. They are. It's this experience, what I want them to know and do. What's their mindset today and what might be an obstacle? Because you have to have that clarity to then take your story and structure it. So let's say you've done that. You know what you want the audience to know, think, feel. Do you have a sense of their mindset and what might be an obstacle? And you've picked an idea from your list. You do want to build a basic structure that. Think of it like a skeleton. We're going to put muscles, and we're going to hang all these different things from it. But you need to have the basic pieces. So first you want to write a sentence out that's going to set the context. And this is really, what's the setting, who's involved, and why should the audience care? You'd write one or two sentences for that or think it. Second is the conflict. And this is the heart of the story, right? You run out of conflict, you run out of story. So you want to write a sentence for what is that tension? What is being explored? And I'm going to come back to conflict, because that's the meat of it. But you would write one or two sentences on what is that tension being explored in the story? Third is the outcome. What happens as a result of the tension? You'd write a sentence on that. And the fourth is the takeaway. What is it that you want the audience coming away from the story with? And if you do this, well, you can see a direct line from what you say is the takeaway to what you said you wanted the audience to know, think, feel, or do. That's how you can make sure that you're building the story that's going to connect with your audience. But let's go back to tension, because I think we have Marvel movies and we have all of these really big blockbusters where tension and conflict is huge explosions and massive things. And your average person is like, I don't have tension in the story. In fact, I was doing a workshop and this woman was like, this was just the first job. There's no tension in my story. And I said, well, what was your job? She said, oh, I was, I was wrapping gifts. I'm like, okay, had you ever done that before? No, no. First job, never really wrapped a gift. But yeah, I show up my first day. In fact, my first customer asked me to wrap a bicycle. And I'm like, okay, hold on a second. And you think you don't have tension in your story. You're on your very first job, first day, and your first customer asks you to wrap. Wrap a bicycle. Like, that is tension. That is conflict. It's often there's a gap between where I am and where I want to be. Or maybe I'm feeling conflicted with my own values or there's tension between two people, or I'm being put in a situation that I just have never been in before. So tension doesn't have to be the Marvel movie. It could be this small thing, but it is that like, oh, boy moment that allows for. There's usually a before and after. It's that middle piece that you're helping people connect with.

I love that. And that's so funny. The, like, when you point it out to someone, it's like, oh, yeah, I guess that was a tension building moment and anxiety. I'm not sure, am I going to get fired today because I can't wrap this bicycle. And you know what's interesting you can see as people, you know, get skilled with telling stories, of course, is like, you don't need to give them the answer right away. You can have the moment where you look scared and they kind of laugh and you incorporate the big pause of like. And of course, you know, first customer person comes up with a bicycle, what the heck am I supposed to do with this thing? Right? And you, everybody can kind of have that moment and that shared space, which helps to get them on the same page, right? To help make whatever the point is.

Well, and to go Back to, you know, stories are about building an understanding in someone's mind. The heart of the approach I take is leveraging neuroscience and how do we understand how the brain is reacting? And part of the reason why I love listening to you and talking with you is the similar approach to this. And one of the things that's always happening as we're listening to stories is that our brain is constantly making predictions. It's not reactive. It's always proactive. Neurons are always firing, and we're making assumptions, and that's assumptions from how do I set my foot when I'm walking downstairs and making assumptions about what's happening in the environment around me. But it's also when I'm listening to someone making assumptions about what they're saying, or you're trying to guess the ending of the book. We're moving. It's part of how we get ahead with. The faster we can make a prediction, the faster our brain can conserve calories, which it wants to. To do. But what this means in a story is that you either want to lean into these assumptions, like saying, first job, you know, first customer I am, should they bring up a bike and I have to gift wrap it. And like you said, you can end right there and let someone make all the assumptions about what did. What did they do and what would I do and let the brain lean into that. Or you challenge them. You put that plot twist, you put a detail that makes their brain hit the speed bump, and that also keeps them engaged. And so there's all these different levers that you get to pull that make a difference in how the brain experiences the stories and how much people connect with it.

Definitely.

And of course, you know, we have the. So the one side being things happened as you expect that they would happen. And, you know, maybe we expect, though if I'm going to tell that story right, I would think as an audience member, if somebody's going to say, okay, I had to wrap the bicycle, and then it's going to be. And turns out I was really good at gift wrapping and like, that set me on this trajectory of my whole life. And I became a, you know, master of gift wrapping or something. And I started a YouTube channel. And like, here's my great story. The other version is like, hey, that bike looked terrible. Like, let me tell you. And my manager had to come in and fix it. But then a year later, because I practiced or what, There are so many ways that story can go and you can help to. To shape it. One of the points or Questions I wrote down in reading the book is why can only you tell this story? So even reading, you know, going back to gophers and Mount St. Helens or origami airbags, or in this case, if I wanted to reuse the bicycle story because I thought it was interesting, how can I reshape someone else's story to be my story and layer in my perspective to make it be interesting?

Think of when you have been out with friends and an event comes up that two of you have shared and one of you starts that story and the other is like, no, no, no, let me tell it. And there's a ping ponging back and forth of who's going to tell the story and you each have your slightly different take on it. This is part of it. Because storytelling is always personal. Even if you're telling someone else's story, you are going to be bringing your perspective to it. So you would tell your version of this, this wrapping the bicycle story, which would maybe even include your reactions to it or your perspective. Even though the plot points may be the same, the way you tell it, the way you personalize it is different. And this is why no one is going to tell the same story that you will. There are stories that you know, if your friend is telling the same story as you, you'll each have a slightly different take on it. And both are really interesting. So don't fall into, well, I can't tell this story. It's been told before. It has. But it hasn't been told by you.

Definitely makes me think about Wicked, right? Which at the time we're talking. Well, and by the time this even comes out, it'll still be relevant since part two is coming out, you know, movie version of that. But I actually remember reading the book Wicked many, many moons ago when it had come out and you know, this untold story of the Witches of Oz, right? And so loved the wizard of Oz and being able to see like, but what, what's the real story, right? Or we're going to see the other side of something. Any of those. I always like a movie where, you know, it goes through all the events of the day and then it restarts and tells from like another perspective and restarts from the next perspective. And seeing how we like, you know, we hate the Wicked Witch in the wizard of Oz, but we love Elphaba and Wicked and being able to say.

Who am I rooting for here?

What's happening? Like, it's so cool to see these different perspectives. So we know that, you know, characters Being one of the things you talk about as a point here. And we have that conflict as well. And connecting with people. You've talked about all three of these here. As we think about, maybe even it's the perspective changes, but also how do we find the right sequence or order of events, Right. When should we start at the end to tell the story? Or when do we. Do we always have to start at the beginning and have it be chronological?

The best thing is grab post its, write out a sentence for the context, a sentence for the conflict, a sentence for the outcome, a sentence for the takeaway, and start challenging yourself with how might this story change if I tell it chronologically? Or how might we experience the story if we tell it chronologically? How might it change if we jump in right at the conflict or we started the takeaway or maybe we started the end and kind of pause and go back and give you some pieces and middle. There's not any one way that's right. You're going to experiment with what's right for your audience. And ultimately what you're trying to do is get to the right balance of tension. So the brain gets out of lazy mode and is paying attention. But also it's not so predicted and easy for someone to just know automatically what's going to happen. You want to make sure that the brain is interested in paying attention. And so you need certain elements, right? You need to have the structure, you need to have things in there that are interesting, plot details, that even the descriptions are maybe slightly unexpected and slow. Some of those assumptions. You want to help people feel like they're maybe a part of it as a. In group, where they feel like. Like, yeah, I want to. I can identify with that character. I want that. Or they notice where they're different. You want characters to be relatable, meaning we understand why they're making the choices that they would even if we would make a different choice. So you start to have these ingredients and once you've got that, then play with, like, what order feels the most compelling to follow along with and see if it is, you know, the most compelling for your audience. So in the book, I talk about this scene from Good Will Hunting, which big fan of the movie. But there's a scene where the lead character, Will, is in a therapist's office and he asks him something about when he met his wife and knew that she was the one. And he gives a very specific date. And he tells this whole story in this way where you jump in kind of in the middle of the conflict of the story and he takes it all the way around to the beginning and you get this unexpected surprise. It works because you didn't really know what was going to happen because you think, you know, that this story was going to culminate one way. And then at the end you get this little zinger. So it's playing with what is the right tension that's going to make the brain pay attention. I didn't describe that scene very well. I was trying to avoid getting into the whole thing of it.

Spoiler alerts.

Masterful. Look up Will and Sean in Sean's office if you want to see it.

Definitely. And, or, you know, when you get your copy of the perfect story, the whole dialogue is in there for you. Right. So everybody can just read it there in your book. So with that, I'm guessing people too are maybe thinking, okay, so this feels like a lot that I have to do to create this story. And if I have to give present, like if I do, I'm, I'm developing a keynote or I'm going to give a TEDx, I can appreciate why I have to have like all these elements of the story. But you know, I have a weekly meeting that I'm presenting data at. How am I supposed to use storytelling for data? And how do I not use the same story every single time? And how much time should I be investing in this process? Like, do I have to give a whole day of coming up with my story each time or, you know, how can I do this efficiently and still being effective?

First thing is storytelling and data is an and not an or. I think there's sometimes this bias that if I'm communicating data, it is manipulative to frame a story around it and data are factual and stories are not. And that is not true. That is a myth. You can make either be bent in whatever direction is most helpful. I like people to think of it in the going back to stories are a way to build understanding. So if I put up an inkblot and I asked you and five listeners what you saw in the inkblot, there would be five different answers. Because our brain is constantly making those predictions and assumptions and they are making those predictions based on our long term memory of experiences and knowledge. And we each have different knowledge and experiences, which means we're going to see different things in it. Anytime you're displaying data, same exact thing happens. So when people say the data speaks for itself, you are just opening up miscommunication for people to have different interpretations. And this can be even with the most simple of data. So telling a story with data to bring context and meaning brings everyone to the same starting line so there's a same shared understanding to then discuss and debate. It is super helpful when you have a new stakeholder, when you have new data or new questions you're trying to answer, when you see an outlier or a pattern in the data that isn't there before you want to work in stories. If you have a weekly meeting where there's a dashboard and set metrics that you're looking at every time and you're just really monitoring, there's not a decision, there's not a milestone, everyone's been seeing this. You don't have to tell that story every time. You might the first meeting, you might as you approach key milestones. But if you're just seeing the same thing and you're not seeing something different, a story isn't needed. But when you have these bigger moments, it is really important to make sure everyone is coming to the same starting line of understanding so you can then discuss and debate it.

Perfect, right? So good to use stories, make sure we use them at the right times. They can help us be relatable with people. So maybe it's not a story that you're investing in, in the data itself each week if there's not much there. But it could be about the team bonding or thinking about other questions or you know, that you can use stories maybe in different ways if it's not about specific data points or something.

It could be. And sometimes a story with data isn't even about the data set. So one of my clients is the head of customer analytics. Analytics in general, but they had customer analytics. And every time they tried to sit down and review it with the executive team, it was always dismissed. Like, these people don't know what they're talking about. They don't know what they need, they don't know what they want and no one would pay attention to it. Well, why are you collecting all this data if you're always going to ignore it? And as the head of analytics this person saw, customer satisfaction is dropping dramatically and we really need to start paying attention to the data. And so the next meeting, instead of opening up with a dashboard and trying to talk about what they're seeing in the customer data, they told this story about this cruise ship that had this terrible disaster online. A family was getting ready to take this trip for their mother's birthday. Eleven people have been saving up for months to go on this cruise together. And the kids had been talking about the pool. I can't wait to get to the pool. So the first day they're aboard, they're underway, they go down to the pool, and the whole thing is cordoned off by caution tape. They thought it was odd, but as they started to move around, they realized there was a lot of hammering and sawing and all of these loud construction noises. And pretty soon they recognized that they were on a floating construction site. Over 30% of the ship was under repair. It was so thick that when people were outside, they were putting towels over their head because the debris was floating around. And so many people ended up in the infirmary. You could smell the urethane from the decks being restained. And people were frustrated. So they get the captain in the dining hall, the dining room, and they share their frustrations. And at first he's sympathetic, but then he gets annoyed and he walks out. So they're livid. Like, they never would have booked this cruise if they knew they were on a floating construction site and couldn't use a good portion of the cruise ship. So they start going on social media. And the head of the headquarters of the cruise line sees this, sends a message to all of the guests. We're sorry. We understand you've been inconvenienced. You know, here's a discount. Here's a 25% discount on booking your next cruise. To which everyone was so frustrated. So that this head of data analytics is telling the story. And in the room, everybody's like, that's ridiculous. You can't treat people that way. And he lets this play out. He lets them feel the rage of these passengers. And then he plays a video. So part of their feedback system with their customers, as they capture their feedback, they have the option to film a video if they so choose. So, you know, the people that do this feel really strongly about their experience. And this person just sits back, like, as the video starts playing, this person says, I'm disappointed in you. Like, I believed. I believed you and you and your product when you sold me a home and said, I would be able to move in, I would have all of these things and came in and, you know, the plumbing wasn't hooked up. And he starts listing all of these things and talks about the impact to his life. And he said, like, you lied to me. And one by one, everyone in the room got quiet because they recognized we can't be incredulous about what this cruise ship did to their customers and overlook what our customers are saying about us. And so that day Using this story, not about data, but about a different topic that was helping connect the people to. There's something here we need to pay attention to. There's something we need to listen to. We can't keep discounting this. That story allowed that shift and allowed for them to then get into the data. So sometimes storytelling and data isn't even. Let's talk about the chart. Let's talk about the decision. It's. Let's talk about the sentiment. Let's talk about what we need to connect with here. Let's talk about how we might think about of this differently.

What a great story. Shockingly. Right. I, I really like how that helped people to realize something and then to show them, hey, we're doing the same thing. But you didn't tell them they were doing the same thing. Right. They had the moment to go, oh, no, we need to fix this. And that can be so motivating for someone. And so I really think, you know, just a lot of what I've, you know, heard and learned and from reading your book and, and everything, I think really leaning into those moments of a, a really thoughtful pause and helping to, you know, guide people to where they should be, but helping to be thoughtful about where you don't have to tell them everything. Right. And to know where they're going to be completing that story themselves. And you want to help, you know, ideally, you know, prime and nudge in a way that's going to help tell the story you want them to see, because there are so many stories available. So you give those right details. But if you try to tell everything, people will tune out and feel like you're trying to tell them something versus them experiencing it. And I think that is a lot of what happens with those really powerful stories.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right. Well, as we go to close out the conversation, knowing that we could talk about stories and brain science all day and night and everything, if there was one last thing you wanted to share with people as they are going to be embarking on their storytelling at work and in life journey, what would you want to say to everyone?

I'm going to give two. The first is that there are a lot of pieces to storytelling and it can feel overwhelming. But don't feel like you have to do everything in one shot. You don't have to define your audience, structure your story, engage the brain with all of these pieces, sequence it. Like, if you try to do all of that in one pass, something will be diluted. And so breaking it into smaller steps allows for you to do each one more effectively and create your own habits and feel better about it. And the second is storytelling is a key skill for building understanding in the brain. And no one is going to come and especially at work and say, and tell me a story. You're going to find these opportunities. You're going to see an opportunity to help bring someone to experience something so they can finish that story in their head or to influence or to expand thinking and lead with story. Come with these opportunities and just try to share the stories and connect with people. Don't wait for someone to ask because no one will, including with data. And it can feel vulnerable because you're communicating in a way that's different than everyone else. And that is fantastic because then you're going to set a precedent and allow for people to connect differently.

I love that. Great, great tips and advice for people. And I would bet too that if people pause for a moment and think about who is impactful and influential at their work and, or anywhere in life, right. People that you love to listen to that you find interesting, that you think are so compelling. If you actually stop and think about it, I bet you could realize like they just told a story. Hey, that's a bit of a story. Oh, but like, why did I think this was so interesting?

Where's the story that they told me?

Even if it's like a small tidbit of something, I bet if you go investigating, people will find that they're out there a lot more than they realize.

And they don't have to be lengthy. It could be as simple as my first job I got, I was wrapping gifts. My very first customer brought a bicycle. You could stop right there and that would be enough for people to feast on.

Love it. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Karen, for taking the time to chat today to share about your work, work and your book and all these amazing stories to get people's, you know, brains moving here. We'll of course have links in the show notes, but for everyone who is excited to connect and learn more and follow you, what's their best path to do so?

My website, which is my name, K A R E N E B R.com I have a brain food newsletter with different articles and tips on storytelling and you can find my book and different workshops and speaking on there.

Perfect. Well, we will make sure that's included in the show notes as well. And you know, thank you again for joining me today.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you again to Karen Eber for joining me on the show today. What got Your brain buzzing in today's conversation for me, I really enjoyed Karen's book and our conversation about storytelling. You all know I love stories. How could I not love this? Some of the key items that stood out for me are to not have to wait for that perfect story and knowing that any story attempt is often better than nothing. I teach this in my Creating Better Presentations class and tell people all the time to not worry so much about the details. The stuff that you think matters as you reflect on the story. The exact shade of someone's jacket, the day of the week, or what year it was are generally not important for the point you're trying to to make. Instead, you need to think about why you're sharing this story. What are you using it to help people to do? You need them to move from some state they're in now to a different.

One by the time they've heard the story.

More often than not, you're going to ask them to make some sort of decision based on what they heard in that story. So what details and aspects matter to help them make that decision. The same story can make multiple points if you consider it from different angles and its different facets, like the gophers after Mount St. Helens. That can be about the importance of testing. It can be about long term results and knowing something's happening even if you can't see it. It can be about doing something outside the box. It can be about the silver lining from a really awful natural disaster that allowed for us to learn something about nature. There are so many aspects of this story that can be valuable. Taking the time to think about them in advance and collecting those story lists, as Karen talked about in our conversation, are the perfect way to help organize your thoughts when you're in a cold state so you're ready to share that story when you find yourself in the hot state. That's when you spontaneously find yourself in the moment where you need a story right now. This can help you from having those moments of 15 minutes or an hour later where you say, oh man, I should have said whatever. If you don't take the time to prepare and be thoughtful, you're less likely to have that story when the time comes. So if it were me and I was using this advice, I would recommend if you can take the time to make a few extra notes about the story. When you jot it down, it can make a lot of difference. Like I said with that gopher thing, you might not remember all of why you thought it was relevant or how it could be used and that means it won't be top of mind when you need it. Especially as you're building this muscle, taking the time to think it through in advance can help you to see the opportunity in the stories and experiences all around you. I would challenge you to go beyond the first thing that came to mind and set some sort of rule for.

Say, three ways you could use that.

Story, the point you would make, and how it might come up. If you take some time to be thoughtful about that and note it down and practice, often the inspiring and influential stories are going to flow out of you in no time. So what's a great story you've seen recently? Or what do you wish you had a story for? Come share it with us on social media. We'd love to hear about it. You'll find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy to connect with both me and Karen, as well as links to my top related past episodes and books, including the Perfect Story and more. It's all waiting for you in the app you're listening to and atthe brainy business.com 491 and thank you again to Karen Eber for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.