What an orchestra conductor can teach managers about building world-class teams | Marin Alsop (Conductor)

I think it comes down to pure and simple, holding yourself accountable every day and putting the time in and also being, being your own teacher. I think that's what I try to be or achieve with my students. I want them to be their own teachers. I think that's the greatest gift that you can give a student or a young person is the ability to be their own best teacher.

Hi everyone, I'm Kristin Berman and this is the Irrational Mind. This podcast is for product marketing design people. People who want to know more about how their customers think and get inspired to build and grow products that work to do that. I'm talking to people who really get human behavior. Today we're thrilled to speak with the classical music conductor Marin Allsop. Widely regarded as one of the most prominent conductors of her generation, Allsop broke significant barriers in the classical music world, becoming the first woman to lead a major American orchestra. She was the director of the Baltimore Symphony orchestra for over 10 years. Allsop is known for her dynamic conducting style, her commitment to contemporary music, and her ability to connect with audiences. And she's also the subject of a fascinating Emmy nominated documentary, the Conductor. So what can product and marketing leaders learn from a conductor? At first I believe the lesson would be about team building. As an orchestra works in literal harmony under a conductor's leadership, they need to create something together that no one could do by themselves. But during this interview I discovered that top conductors are actually under union rules, which basically means conductors don't really give any formal feedback off podium to their players. Conductors may not have social interactions to build relationships with the players, and players are effectively tenured. So performance incentives that you may typically give are off the table. So now the conundrum gets bigger. How do these orchestras achieve such beautiful musical cohesion with all of these hurts? The answer, it turns out, lies in the musicians constant need to listen to each other and their inherent sense of ownership and autonomy.

So?

So while an orchestra is kind of the essence of a collaborative exercise to make beautiful music, it is also deeply individual. Marin trusts that if a mistake occurs, yes, she'll call it out, but the musicians will practice independently to perfect the sequence. This mirrors the behavioral science principle that autonomy can boost workplace performance. To facilitate this autonomy, there is a catch. Marin also highlights the importance of hiring top 10 talent. People who make it to the top orchestra are the best in the world. So they have self selected for people who are relentless at practicing and who can proactively learn, improve and grow quickly. I was struck by Marin's personal commitment to practice. She spoke of her journey to expertise with a gradual acquisition of the ability to hear and distinguish individual elements in an orchestra, and her current commitment to excellence. With her hours of daily practice to learn a new piece, Marin reminds us that there is no shortcut for practice and repetition. Prepare for an inspiring discussion on leadership and the pursuit of excellence. Let's dive into our conversation with the remarkable Marin Allsop. This podcast is sponsored by Irrational Labs, the top applied behavioral science consultancy. If you're looking to understand your customers, grow your product, and drive customer behavior change, go to irrational labs.com and say say hello or email me kristinrationrationallabs.com thanks for being here so much. Great to have you on the show. Let's hop right into it. So basically, can you describe your practice regimen? How do you approach basically maintaining your skills and improving?

That's a tricky question for a conductor because so much of the process is solitary process. I have to do a lot of studying, preparation, preparing the score, learning the piece, you know, analyzing the music. And then the next step, which is a huge amount as well, is trying to visualize what it's going to be like. How is the orchestra going to play a passage, anticipate where the problems might come, find the right words to inspire the musicians, you know, so there's a lot of preparation that goes into it. And then of course, in the moment of conducting a rehearsal, everything changes. So all the passages you thought would be bad are fine, and the ones you thought would be fine are bad. And then, you know, there's something in the acoustic in the room that you have to adjust. So I would say that be hugely prepared, you know, overly prepared, and then be ready to pivot immediately. And it's a matter of constantly feeling that you are flexible and you can adapt quickly to a changing environment and.

Maybe give us a day in the life of. So you've just either started with a new orchestra or a new piece. Like what does the Are you sitting at a computer or taper? Are you in front of a mirror practicing?

Yeah, it depends. There are certain stages that one goes through. You know, if it's a new piece to me, whether it's a new composition just written or an old composition that I haven't done before. There's going to be a lot of time with the score, looking at the music, analyzing it, taking it apart, understanding why the composer, trying to motivate every note. From the composer's standpoint, I am really the messenger for the creator, for the composer. So that's my job, is to Find the narrative underlying this great artwork and bring it to life. And hopefully even not just tell the story, but get a moral to the story and get that across. So I would say, you know, the first thing I do, and it's probably similar to any, anybody in a high stress job, I have to exercise to start my day, otherwise I can't focus. So I usually do like the elliptical machine. If I'm doing elliptical, I can look at the music while I'm on it and be doing some work. Or if I run outside, I'm usually memorizing a piece. The thing is, I have to be multitasking. So I'm learning a piece that I'm going to do three months from now today, but I'm working on another piece in rehearsal today. So I have to be constantly, constantly working on probably three or four different paths at the same time. And then I'll have, generally have rehearsals 10 to 1, 2 to 5, so up to six hours of rehearsal a day. And then, you know, I have to do interviews and other things and planning and programming. So there's a lot to manage. But I always try to start my day with two things, exercise and study.

Wow, that's beautiful. What is the process like for learning something completely new versus, as you said, like later in the day, you're working on improving a piece you're already familiar with. How do you think about that when you're going from 0 to 1 to 1 to 1?

I think there are two different ways to look at it. While of course they share many similarities, the learning processes. But with a brand new piece, say it's something that's written, never been recorded, never been played. You know, it's a matter of me trying to hear it all because I don't have an audio to listen to. You know, if I'm conducting a Mahler symphony or Beethoven symphony, I can listen to, I don't know, there must be thousands of recordings out there, you know, and get the sound world into my head. But. And also, you know, you can check different interpretations with a new piece. There is no definitive interpretation yet, and you don't even know really what it sounds like. So there's a lot of, you know, I'll play some of it at the piano, I'll try to, you know, sing some of it. So it's a matter of trying to bring those notes on the page to life.

Is there an example of a particularly challenging piece that you've had to work with or. And yeah. How did you approach the challenge?

One of the fellowship Conductors and I were just speaking about a piece that we both recently did by a British composer named Tom Addis, and it's a piano concerto. So, you know, with concertos where you have a soloist, it's usually not that stressful on the orchestra or the conductor. But this piece was crazy because the pianist is playing in a different. Different tempo and lands on things at different times from the orchestra. And you can't really listen because if you listen, then you go with the pianist and you have to stay on your path. So this was really a tour de force in focusing, you know, and not being distracted by what anybody else was doing. So there are several pieces that I've done lately that are like that, you know, where you just have to. You almost have to tune out the world and become completely focused on just one conversation that you're having.

It seems like that is a talent. If you were to ask me to pay attention to one thing when lots of other things were going on in my world, it would be very difficult to do. What percent of your craft is this Learned expertise where you say, look, you can't. You need years to understand how to do that type of focus versus, you know, if you. Some level of talent.

This is.

This is your music mind.

You know, I think it varies for. From person to person, but a couple things come to mind. The first thing is this. Do you know this expression or this effect called the cocktail effect? Have you heard of this? This is when you're at a cocktail party and there's lots of conversations going on, but if you focus, you can tune into one conversation. Maybe there's one thing you're trying to eavesdrop on someone, and it's called the cocktail effect. When you can focus in on that. I find that many of my conducting students, I should say, they say the first time they stand up in front of the orchestra, they couldn't hear anything because I think a combination of nerves and the overwhelming just wall of sound that comes at you. So it takes years to really be able to not only stand up and hear different things, but isolate what's wrong to be able to say, okay, bassoon, that should be a B flat there, or bassoon. The rhythm here is not to pick on the bassoon or trumpet this or that. So I think this takes years and years of practice. I always tell my students, do not worry. The more you do it, the easier it gets.

You talked a little bit and touched on kind of building trust within the orchestra. Maybe we. We go there, which is generally leading any large group of people is a complex task, and you have probably a diverse amount of talented individuals. Can you talk about an example of how you've come into a new senior setting with a group of people and had to understand the them and how to manage them?

Well, I liken weeks in my life to sort of blind dates with 100 people. You know, I go in on a Tuesday morning and I've never seen any of these people. Often I don't speak the language either. You know, that's another sort of level to add to it, of complexity to add to it. But by Thursday night, this is Tuesday morning. By Thursday night, they have to trust me, and we have to have enough intimacy to create an inspired performance. So that's a lot of terrain to travel in that short amount of time. I would say that from my perspective, at least, what works for me, and it's different for every person, of course, but I think is always be yourself. Don't try to be someone else. Don't try to be the way you think they think they want you, you to be. Be yourself. Be authentic. I think always own your mistakes. If I make a mistake, I own it. It's mine.

Can you give me an example of a mistake?

Oh, sure. You know, if you make a. Perhaps I conducted a seven bar and five, and I say, sorry, that was me. You know, I don't want to stop and say, okay, well, you were too loud here. You know, this is what conductors often do. And. But the musicians know I had. I stopped because I made a mistake. So I say, oh, I'm sorry, that was me. Hopefully it doesn't happen very often. Maybe once a year. And then I think I try to treat everybody with respect, but not necessarily with deference, you know, that we're all equal. And I try to diffuse any kind of tense moments, usually with humor, because that's my go to. There's so many different types of leadership, but for me, the humor seems to work, and it usually dissipates whatever the issue was, and perhaps doesn't embarrass the person as much as a direct confrontation would, but is usually more effective.

I love that. Can you give an example of a tense situation and using humor or even just a tense situation?

I mean, often it's something like one of the musicians says, well, what are you doing there? You know? Or what, are you speeding up? Or, you know, some kind of frustrated question? And I'll say something like, oh, my God, were you looking at me? You know, I try to say something funny like, I told you not to look up, you know, or your colleague said, don't look up. You know, things that are funny and somewhat self deprecating. So you know, this is, this works for me. And also if there's a problem at a passage, say they can't get a passage. There's a point where you have to know when to leave something alone and understand that you'll come back to it. But in this moment it's not going to get resolved and that's okay. And I often will say something like, I know you'll look at that. So that, you know, I give you, I give you some latitude. I'm not going to bother you about it now, but I'll be back with it again.

It seems like this is a. As much of an individual sport as a team sport. How do you balance those two things that people have to rely on each other to, to perform and be their best. And maybe if that doesn't happen, there could be some level of frustration if, if some of the team isn't, you know, going back to look at it in practice.

The greatness of an orchestra is reliant on each individual's contribution. And the sum of them all, I think in any kind of team they're going to be the leaders, the super responsible ones, the, and I wouldn't call them slackers, but the less responsible maybe. And everyone's important because everyone contributes to the creation of the final fabric. I think that by focusing on the message of the composer, one has a sort of a higher goal, a goal that's above us and we all have the same goal. And so I always try to get that marquee goal up there for people. You know, the sound isn't Dvorak, you know, the sound is, so what can we do? Let's know, do you know, for me the Dvorak is, you know, say a few things and then we'll work on it a bit more and this and that. So it's not that I'm imposing something on them, but I'm trying to create a picture and allow them to fill it in with their own statement, with their own personality. You know, one of the things that is difficult, I think, especially for a young conductor, is not to try to micromanage the musicians, you know, do it this way, do it this way. And I find that this is a very important life lesson, that it's important to delegate and then trust. And it's better to let something go than to micromanage it to death. So, you know, I'm trying to empower people to be the best they can be. And sometimes some people are gonna be better at that than others. And that's okay.

That, that's very powerful. I definitely succumb to the micromanagement sometimes. I was. May have been talking to my team or something.

I don't know.

What is your approach to integrating new members so people stay within orchestra for, for a very long time? Is there any kind of, if, if you're joining in the very beginning, how do people catch up and, you know, create the trust not for you, but do you help them do it?

Well, orchestras are really fascinating organisms because, you know, the audition process is, is hugely competitive. I mean, there'll be several hundred people auditioning for one position. And in the bigger orchestras, where the money is higher, I mean, it's even more competitive. Then there's a probation process, which is usually about 18 months. During that process, everyone is usually quite well behaved. And then after that process, there's a tenure system. So once you get tenure, it's virtually your job for life.

Wow.

So it's a combination of things. You know, the tenure system gives security, but it also is, I think, antithetical to people pushing themselves sometimes. So you have to try to find that balance. And this is the way the orchestra functions. How do you bring new people in and try to bring them up to speed, but not indoctrinate them or not allow them to retain their spirit? That's what I find the biggest challenge.

If you could redesign the 10 year system, would you do it? And how.

Well, I think there are huge advantages to the tenure system and mostly it stems from real abuse of musicians in the past. But I do think that there could be some method for discussion and input. And you know, what happens is that because of the tenure system, you never speak to a musician unless you have to fire them. You know, there's no, there's no forum to do like a job review. And you know, here are my thoughts and what are your thoughts? How are you feeling in this role? How's it going? You know, there's no dialogue really possible. So I would say that being able to have some dialogue on some level, maybe every other year, that isn't threatening at all and would not be be considered antithetical to the tenure process, but more about opening a dialogue. Because often it's not just, you know, criticism, negative criticism, but it's also positive criticism and constructive criticism. Of course, I can see it from musicians perspective that I don't want to be criticized. I'm criticized all the time. Just sitting there and maybe that's enough. But this is more about, I think, trying to create a work environment that is satisfying for people and where they feel safe and where they also have.

A voice that makes a lot of sense. That having some sort of feedback system within your tenure would probably improve their happiness as well as.

I think so. Yeah.

So in a company world, there's a lot of things like team building, where outside of your core, your work environment, you're doing a scavenger hunt, you're doing a game, you're trying to kind of build trust in different ways. Are there any specific activities that the orchestra does like that, that builds trust?

No.

Okay.

It doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist. I mean, I wish it did. And I think institutions can create the environment to sort of nurture and foster that by, you know, we're having a reception, please join us. You're all welcome. Bring your family to, I don't know, this picnic day or. But it requires a lot of effort on the part of the institution. And often orchestras are very understaffed. They're operating on a threadbare margin, they have to raise tons of money, so they're overwhelmed by all of these things. And social dynamics really get short shrifted in that. And also because of the nature of the contract, you can't require musicians to do anything outside of the rehearsals and the concerts. But I do think that the orchestras that I enjoy the most are the ones that, that hang out with each other, you know, or occasionally, not all the time, but sometimes, you know, there's some orchestras that I love to go on tour with, some that I don't, you know, and it's all about the interpersonal dynamic.

How do you get folks like myself who are interested, but maybe not as deep interested in what is a somewhat intimidating field or intimidating art genre to dive deeper into?

Well, I would say though that it's like anything, you know, intimidation is born of. It's usually not related to the subject matter, but rather the trappings around it. You know, I think classical music, everyone, every human being is born hotwired for music. And you know, it's just the classical music industry has done such a terrible job of making people feel welcome. You know, there's all these, if you clap, oh my God, God forbid you clap. Oh, you wore jeans. Not. No. You know, there's so many of these unwritten rules. And I would say don't be intimidated by the unimportant things. Those things are not important. The important thing is if you Enjoy it. If you like listening to a piece of music, listen a little bit more. You will start to grasp more things. It's like reading a. Rereading a book. The more you hear a piece, the more you like it. The more you listen, the more things come out for you. You don't have to be a musician at all to enjoy classical music and to appreciate it, but it's not an easy task. It's not like listening to a three minute pop song. First of all, the length is, you know, there's a huge difference. And a pop song has lots of hooks that grab you. You know, it's like media, it just sucks you in. Whereas classical music is more of a fine wine experience. You know, it's developing. And what we're doing is we're asking the audience to listen. It's almost like when you take. A friend of mine, a composer, described it like taking an artwork that's all rolled up and gradually unrolling it, but then continue to roll what you just saw up, because you can only hear what's in the moment. So it's a very sophisticated experience that we're expecting from the listener. It's not about intimidation, it's about, you know, breathing through it and feeling it. And I know a lot of people who have come to classical music later in life, and maybe it's more about that maturation and that fine wine. You know, you're not looking just for a fast buzz, but you really want to experience things in the music. And whatever you hear is correct, whatever you feel is correct, whatever you don't like is fine. Whatever you do like, that's fine. You know, nobody should be telling you how you should listen or what you should feel. Music is a great equalizer. It can mean something completely different to.

You than to me switching topics a bit. You know, obviously you've broken barriers by being the first woman to really get to the top of the field. How have you seen other women succeed? So what is maybe the biggest lever that you've seen pulled to help other women kind of make it? Is there a tactic, a strategy?

I think that mentorship is really important. I think that it's very important to have to have advocates and people that champion you. In terms of my field, I started a fellowship in 2002 called the Taakhi Alsup Conducting Fellowship. And we're just reviewing the latest applicant pool and the level of applicants each year or each two years gets higher and higher and higher. So I see the progress. But we now have a community of women conductors that is 600 people strong, and they are resources for each other. So I think it's very important that particularly women, but men as well, of course, gather together to create support systems for each other. That means offering advice, offering consolation when people need it, suggestions, opening doors, creating opportunities, all of these things. I mean, the person on the other end has to still step through the door and take hold of the opportunity, and it's their talent that will do that. But we have to create more, More opportunities. This was the main problem in conducting, is that there were so few opportunities for women. If you only have one opportunity, you can't afford to make a mistake, so you play it safer. I think it's important for women to be able to take risks and sometimes to fail, and that it isn't a defining feature, but it's just part of the journey. But often people say, well, see, we told you a woman couldn't do that. You know, then that's the end of that discussion. A man fails, oh, yeah, but he'll get better. You know, there's a different kind of acceptance. And I think that. I think that mentorship is important. We can all do something for people, especially in our own fields. And I always believed that it was difficult for me so that I could make it easier for the next people.

What advice would you give to hr? Or sometimes they're called Diversity and Inclusion Teams about this? Think about a large company has an HR team that's trying to encourage more women leaders, more women participation. Other than mentors, any anything to say to them?

Well, I think that it's really important that this idea of diversity, gender equality, representation, that it becomes a deeply rooted goal of the company, that it's intentional. Every day it's intentional, and that the leadership of the company makes it clear that it's intentional on their part. Also, I think it's something to talk about. We are looking for a more diverse workforce, qualified, diverse workforce. We're not going to hire people just based on diversity, but we are definitely looking to expand that. And I would say that without the MeToo and Black Lives Matter movements, we wouldn't be where we are. So remember that it took responses to violence against underrepresented people to get us to this place. So it's not going to be an easy pathway either. On any end. It's a complicated matter. And I think it's, again, about being open and setting. You know, you set a goal, and if you can't achieve it, you explain why you can't. And, you know, if. If you say, okay, you know, 50. 50, say. Say gender equality. And then you come back and you say, you know, okay, we only made 43%, but that's because we. We didn't find those 7% qualified. But we're still looking, and next year, you know, we're going for 52% or whatever. I think there has to be that intentionality at the root of it all.

So one thing that you experience that I don't think a lot of people, maybe in a classic work world get to experience is just a deep expertise in your craft. What advice would you give? Or maybe an example that you've had of having that focus and that dedication to your craft that creates the expertise. I think many folks are craving this deeper expertise, and yet we're kind of in a world where that may be more difficult that we like.

So do you mean more of an immersion in what you do or.

So, basically, when I was watching the conductor, you had this advice to somebody about the very small details about how their hand dropped and that it wouldn't bounce. And that level of, like, precision in how you're teaching and how you're conveying yourself is expertise and perfecting what you're saying. Time and energy and effort.

I think that if there's something you really want to do and you want to do it well, and it's sort of an inescapable formula that the more you practice it, the better you'll get at it. I mean, I'm sorry, there isn't. I know everybody always wants sort of the magic pill, you know, like, oh, yes, now we can lose weight because we have these new medications, or we could take this pill to do that. But I think it comes down to pure and simple, holding yourself accountable every day and putting the time in and also being your own teacher. I think that's what I try to be or achieve with my students. I want them to be their own teachers so that they don't need me to say, no, no, no, but you need to do so that when they're practicing by themselves, they can look objectively at what they're doing or if they're. You know, if someone's reading something, that they can be objective about what they wrote and say, yes, okay, this rings true. That doesn't work. This doesn't work. I'd rather do it like this. I think that's the greatest gift that you can give a student or a young person is the ability to be their own best teacher.

Great, Wonderful. Spot to end. That is perfect.

Super.

You're a very busy woman and I've really enjoyed getting to know you through the pre research I did and this conversation was delightful. So have fun with the rest of your day and so appreciate the time you took to have this conversation.

It was great to meet you.

Thank you for listening. If you like the show, go to irrationalabs.com to say hello to us or post a review on Apple or Spotify. Big thank you to the show's two Jax Jack Buer, our writer, and Jack Steger, our genius editor. Until next time.