What design teams can learn from Headspace | Cal Thompson (VP of Product Design & Research, Headspace)

We track content starts and content completes. That's like one of our big metrics. And we also track daily active use. So, like, you know, how many times has this person come back and use the app? And when we rolled out the managing stress program, we did notice not only an increase in those and, you know, content starts and content completes, but also in daily active use. So people coming back, I'd say, like, the golden amount for a headspace number is three or four daily active, you know, uses or days active in a week. Like, that's. That's really like the amount that someone not only, you know, uses in order to retain as a member, like, you know, become. Becomes a subscriber, renews their subscription, but also, and I think this is really important because it is a little different for headspace than other apps. Reduces their stress. Like, it actually has to. You know, we actually measure that in the app. And so, you know, when folks are filling out a monthly perceived stress score survey in the profile and in order to actually reduce their stress, like, our external evidence base that we've worked on with external collaborators shows us that really, people need to meditate at least 10 minutes a day, three times a week in order to get measurable stress reduction. And so, you know, that. That daily active use, those content plays like. Yeah, they're helpful in terms of, like, product mechanics, like product engagement. Yes. And as. As far as health outcomes, like, they're also quite vital. You know, it's like, it won't actually work for you and it won't give you the benefits that you want to get unless you actually use it.

Hi, everyone.

I'm Kristin Berman, and this is the Irrational Mind. This is the first episode in a series of conversations we're going to have with people to understand our irrational mind.

This podcast is for product marketing design.

People, people who want to get inspired to build and grow products that work. And to do that, we're talking to people who really get human behavior. Yes, you could talk to five users to improve your onboarding, but why not just take the playbook of a game designer? Yes, you could launch and learn your latest marketing campaign, but why not learn from the dog trainer, who really understands how to design incentives, or magician, who understands how to capture our attention. So we're digging for gold here, and we'll talk to a variety of people and companies to help you grow and build that work. And today we're starting by tackling meditation. What can we learn about getting people to meditate that you could then use in your work? And in Your life. Meditation is something I find fascinating. Basically, it's something anyone can do.

It requires no advanced degree.

You can do it whenever and wherever you want. You don't need gym equipment, you don't need other people. You don't need to pay for it. And people say if you do it, you feel better. Headspace is the leader in getting people to start meditating. And today we are talking to their VP of design and research, Kayl Thompson. But if it's so easy and there are so few barriers to entry, why do we need help meditating? Why don't we just do it all the time? In other words, why do we need help or why do we need Headspace? Well, we need it because meditation is available whenever, because meditation is free, because you can do meditation alone, and because the reward is delayed. So given all that is actually one of the most difficult behaviors you could ever design. In fact, I couldn't imagine a harder habit for people to start. So what can PMs and marketers learn from Headspace? Well, today we will dive into what they have learned about getting us to do a really hard habit thing. So the essence of behavior change, and maybe a secret to innovation, is to make something easier. Think about Amazon prime or Uber, and we want to make it more motivating.

Think about TikTok.

So the aim is to reduce barriers and increase benefits at the base level. This is how Headspace broke through and built their massively popular meditation platform. They made meditation easier by making it shorter.

Just 10 minutes.

And they ask you to pay, which can increase commitment and motivation. And they also make it a wee bit more immediately gratifying by focusing on use cases for anxiety and sleep.

So Cal Thompson, the head of design.

And research, will talk about the ways they have the seven day and the 30 day retention. And I do think Headspace has helped people to start practicing meditation. They have made it easy to start. And honestly, that is not easy.

So credit where credit is due. Product people take note.

But the question is continuing. And this is where I'm a little bit skeptical. Headspace says to reduce stress, you need to use it at least three times a week for 10 minutes. That may not sound like a lot, but it feels like a lot. So what is the theory of continuing? You could imagine you could show people other members who are successful and give them aspiration to keep going. Or you could show them failure so people don't feel so alone if they are also struggling. You could make it really, really easy to start and require zero commitment up front. Or you could ask for a lot of money and a longer commitment. Do you allow people to use it whenever they want, or do you restrict times and freedom? So anywhere, anytime is clearly not the recipe to help people. People continue to meditate or we wouldn't need Headspace. So how far do you go? Well, I'd be bullish on an app that was even more paternalistic than Headspace. Take my money and my mind, Headspace.

Go on, take it. And on a more personal note, my day job is CEO of Irrational Labs. Irrational Labs is a SWAT team of behavioral scientists. We help companies design and build products that customers use, love and pay for. This podcast is an exploration of behavior change across different domains. If you like it, you may also like working with us. Give me a shout@hello rationallabs.com and mention the podcast. And also throw us a bone. I mean, review on Apple or Spotify podcasts. Thank you in advance. It really does help. Headspace is a stress reduction app. It is also well known for meditation. And so today we're gonna focus on meditation. And I would be remiss to not start off with the idea that meditation is difficult. It is hard for most humans to do for a variety of reasons we will likely get into. But maybe you could just kick us off with kind of the, the big question, which is what does Headspace know about getting people to meditate?

Yeah, well, we know that it needs to feel palatable and easy and approachable and it needs to be demystified. So the early, early kind of origin story of Headspace was that Rich and Andy, who are the co founders, wanted to demystify meditation and demystify mindfulness because it can seem so esoteric and you know, it's a multi thousands year old tradition. So what we know is that breaking down the practice of meditation into bite sized lessons and, and making those available on someone's phone in their pocket is. It's absolutely necessary for people to actually be able to learn that skill.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense with what we know about behavioral science and taking what we say is the path of least resistance. So basically, if something's hard, we will probably not do it as much as if it's easy. And so if you tell me I have to meditate for 60 minutes versus 10 versus 2, it's potentially likely that I will be more interested in meditation. So maybe dive into that. How did you actually make meditation easier? Like what was the, what are the guts behind that?

Yeah, great question. So, you know, and I wasn't, I wasn't Here for that portion of the Headspace history. But when Andy and Rich founded Headspace, which was now 13 years ago, they started off doing live events, and they were teaching meditation live, you know, in person, mostly in London. And then when they transitioned to making it into a digital app, they said, like, okay, so how can we break down these skills into something that is, like, you know, so achievable and approachable and kind of every day, like, kind of bring it down to earth, like, what. What. What would that look like? And so what they ended up doing was breaking down meditation into eight techniques. So, like, the basics in Headspace teach you eight techniques, body scan being one of them, visualization, et cetera, et cetera. And so they broke it down into those eight techniques, and then they said, okay, for most people, they are not going to be able to sit for a meditation for, you know, 30 minutes an hour. Like the kinds of things that if you go to a meditation class in person, you might do. So they said, okay, so how can we, like, bring it even more to an approachable level? And that's where take 10 came from. And take 10 was 10 minutes a day of meditation for 10 days. And that was sort of the minimum that Andy Puddicomb felt someone needed to do to learn the basics of meditation. And in that, you know, take 10, 10 minutes of meditation for 10 days, they would learn those eight meditation techniques. And they're really wonderful instructive videos that show, you know, each technique so that they become less abstract and more concrete. Like, hey, this is what it really means to note, you know, here is a beautiful animated video that actually takes you through that process and uses real life metaphors that are, like, very easy for anyone to grok. And. And this is, you know, what it means to be an observer of your thoughts. This is what it means to remember the blue sky. Like, there's just this very simple clarity to like. To like each of those little, what we call expert guidance videos. And so essentially, start with that, take 10, and then in the. Just to, like, go throwback all the way back to then when the. When the app was first founded, because it's a little different now. You went from 10 minutes a day, 10 days in a row to 15 minutes of meditation a day for 15 days, and then 20 minutes of meditation a day for 20 days. So you're kind of like, you know, gradually stepping into more of a meditation.

So that seems like a theory of change that basically says if you can do something kind of hard, then you can do something a Little bit more hard and we're going to kind of progress you along and you'll, you'll progressively get to be this, this Buddha. The, the other approach. I know this is so easy. The other approach would be what is classically done by many people who are like new and see their friends doing it is sign up for a 10 day meditation without having ever meditated and then just say, well, we'll see what happens. And you're basically saying, I'm going to do the really hard thing up front and then after that kind of like teach myself or hope that something like increases my meditation in my daily life. So how do you think about those two like different theories of change? And I know that I don't know if meditation Headspace does a, you know, 10 day meditation sponsored or something, but, but how, how should people think about starting.

Yeah, that's a good. Well, just to clarify, so I'm answering your question correctly. Do you mean like a 10 day Vipassana retreat, like where someone is like, I'm gonna just go ahead and sign up for a 10 day silent, you know. Yeah, we don't actually though, I kind of wish we would offer in person retreats. It'd be so fun. It's an interesting, like I, I love where you're going with this. Like I, I think Headspace has gone the other way. I think that we see so many people who come to us in, in, in states of need that we have realized that like it's more important to be approachable and, and like, you know, welcoming and, and very easy to grok in order to help people who are in like varying states of duress. And so, you know, while there are people who use Headspace for like sort of the achievement oriented side of it, there are also plenty of people who come because they're like in the middle of the night, unable to sleep, sleep. You know, we've had members who download the app while having like a very panicky response to finding out a loved one is, you know, in the hospital. Like there's sort of like levels of duress that we respond to that kind of require that we have to be much more like quick and, and simple and easy to grok than like a 10 day, you know, like, oh, you know, leave your job for 10 days and go, go to this retreat center and you're going to be silent and you may never have done this before and so on.

You're going to be a better person. That's the balance.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And probably will be, but it's but that's like, you know, not. Not everyone is quite there yet. In fact, you know, I'd say half the time, I'm not there yet. Yeah, yeah.

So you mentioned a nice insight that's basically like, Headspace has kind of moved to a world where you're helping people at the point of need when they come in. So basically you're addressing any kind of acute issue that they have. Can you talk more about, like, either that evolution or that finding of saying, you know, in general you want to meditate, but today you want to calm down that kind of, like, idea of reducing stress?

Yeah. And this is the origin story of the SOS Meditations that are in the Headspace app. So, you know, over time, we realized there were people who were not necessarily coming in to learn meditation. Like, that is one mental model for sure. There are people who do that, and then there are people who come in because, you know, they're having a, you know, a more immediate need. And so what we call it at Headspace is the vitamin versus the aspirin. So we have people who come in, they need an aspirin, and that's where, like, our SOS series comes in. Some of the really great sleep SOS that are in our sleep section of the app. So there's like, one called Waking up at Night, and then, like, one that's like, pain in the Night. You know, things that are more of a, you know, like an aspirin type, like an immediate need. And then the. The vitamin crew, the vitamin users are folks who are coming in actively to learn meditation and, you know, are much, much happier to kind of, like, go through the basics, 1, 2, and 3, and, you know, do different courses on different topics like creativity or performance at work or things like that. So. And I don't think I'm perfectly answering your question, so we stay with questions.

No, Perfect. So maybe it seems like those are two different types of users. I'm going to learn meditation or I'm going to. To really solve a problem that I have right now. In behavioral science, we de. We kind of. It's like the aspirin, but we call it, like, present bias, which is like, today I want to do something. My future self wants to be a better person and meditate every day. But today I need help. I need something. And so maybe the stress reduction is kind of like that. You're solving the thing they actually need today. How do you think about the retention in general and this, like, focus on seven days versus 30 days versus forever?

What we have found over the course of, especially like the last three years in the Headspace app is that when folks come in, we have a relatively short window to explain to them either, you know, how to use the Headspace app or how to use it for different need states. And, and especially that first seven days is valuable. But we've also noticed the first 14 days is valuable and then it kind of like the high, you know, need for guidance ends around day 30. So that's just, you know, what we've noticed from, from looking at our member base, what we have experimented with is in that first seven days, how can we give people more grounding on, you know, what is in our content library? Like what are the types of things that you could work on? Sleep, movement, mindful eating, stress, anxiety, you know, meditation and mindfulness. And we've created a series of videos that are called how to Headspace that are wonderful content team made, but they're really guiding people on like, you know, how can you use this and, and like what are the different components of this overall app that could help you based on, you know, different need states? So that's one. And then in that first 30 days, just like broaden out the frame to that first 30 days. We once we started studying that 30 days and really studying it at depth and really looking at members, like we actually did a incredible diary study on this where we had 25 people track their like experience with Headspace for 30 days and give us very honest feedback throughout. And it was just a fabulous research study that, that our design research team did so highly recommend that to anyone working in product. Like get your, get your design research teams to do this because it showed us kind of the other side of what was happening for members in the app.

What was one, one insight from that?

Oh, I have, we have hundreds. It's going to be, yeah, it's like there's, there's so many. So the big insight was people needed more concrete guidance in that first 30 days and they needed it more in sort of a, a step by step mechanism. And so what it led to was our 30 day managing stress program, which is now live in the Headspace app. Kasanga is the teacher on that one. But we realized is that people needed daily actions that were related to using the Headspace app and to their need state. And then they also needed a kind of sense of reward, which I'm sure you as a behavioral scientist could tell us, like that that's, you know, exactly what people would need. But, but they needed a sense of like, completion. So, like, I've done this action great. The system is saying, you know, check, you've done it. Now I move on to the next activity in my day, you know, as part of this managing Stress program. And then tomorrow I have different activities and it's like a very sequential journey. So. So, yeah, so that diary study showed us like, like the, the level of guidance that people needed.

So how do you guys study if this actually works in the app? Like, are you doing an AB test? Are you. Is it like a slow rollout or like, what's the method to study if this stuff. Stuff actually drives retention across the board?

Yeah, so we track content starts and content completes. That's like one of our big metrics. And we also track daily active use. So, like, you know, how many times has this person come back and use the app? And when we rolled out the managing stress program, we did notice not only an increase in, in those and, you know, content starts and content completes, but also in daily active use. So people coming back, you know, are kind of, I'd say like the golden amount for a Headspace member is three or four daily active, you know, uses or days active in a week. Like, that's, that's really like the amount that someone not only, you know, uses in order to retain as a member, like, you know, become. Becomes a subscriber, renews their subscription, but also, and I think this is really important because it is a little different for Headspace than other apps. Reduces their stress. Like, it actually has to. You know, we actually measure that in the app. And so, you know, when folks are filling out a monthly perceived stress score survey in the profile and in order to actually reduce their stress, like our external evidence base that we've, you know, worked on with external collaborators shows us that really people need to meditate at least 10 minutes a day, three times a week in order to get measurable stress reduction. And so you know that, that daily active use, those content plays like. Yeah, they're helpful in terms of like product mechanics, like product engagement. Yes. And as. As far as health outcomes, like, they're also quite vital. You know, it's like, it won't actually work for you and it won't give you the, the benefits that you want to get unless you actually use it.

So, okay, so we've got, basically right now we've got make it Easy, which is like move from long meditations to 10, 10 minute. We've got maybe lead with an aspirin or pain reduction sort of thing like stress to get people in the door and interested. And then we have this idea of, of kind of step by step guiding people saying, look, here's, here's the way to do it so you're not lost and maybe you have some checkboxes to feel good about. What, what other things work to keep people going, you know, during the seven days and past the seven days.

Yeah, great question. So I'll give you two important ones. So we do have a Run streak and it's been in the Headspace app for a very long time and it surfaces after your meditation. So there's like a little end card that gives you a, you know, kind of a, a tip, you did it. You're, you know, you're, you see your Run streak update and there's a little mindful quote that kind of sends you on into your day. And then that run streak is also visible to the user in their profile. We, we call our users members. So to the member in their profile now I will, I will sidebar to say we got a lot of member feedback about the Run Streak over the years. And so our designers, being the human centered designers, they are listened to that feedback and they actually have a feature now in the profile where you can show and hide the Run streak. So for people who feel that it is overly gamifying the practice of meditation and mindfulness or they don't want their mental health tools to be gamified, which, you know, fully understand, that's, that's a valid, you know, user type, they have the ability, there's a little eye icon and they can show and hide that feature and, and people use it. Now. The other thing in the first seven days that we found to be really useful is actually, and this sounds wild to break down meditation that's already short into something even simpler, but we did notice that for some people, the very idea of eyes closed seated meditation, even in the way that Headspace teaches it, which is, you know, you don't have to be sitting Lotus style on the floor, you don't have to be in a monastery. You could be in your office, you could be in your home, whatever, sitting in a chair, even that was a bit intimidating for some people. And so we broke it down even further to like, what is the bare minimum tiny step that you could do that is a step towards being able to, you know, sit for a meditation, and that is a breathing exercise. And so the very top of what we call our dynamic playlist, which is on the, the Today tab in the Headspace app on the home screen, the very Top is a breathing exercise and that refreshes every day. It's different every day, but it's the first activity in that to do list that is on the Today tab. Because it's so simple and you get this little dopamine hit of achievement from doing it. You not only feel a little bit better, but you also have achieved something that then you can kind of move into the next items on the list which in order or a video, like a daily video and then the daily meditation in a more kind of posture of like, I've already accomplished something. So that was what we really noticed, like, needed to happen in the first seven days. And we're still experimenting with changing some of that, like with the breathing exercises. But, but that proved to be a very valuable way for especially our brand new members to like, get into the practice of meditation without it being, you know, just too intimidating.

Yeah, that's very nice. You're basically taking 10 minutes and mushing it into 20 seconds and saying like, look, this is, you know, kind of foot in the door, which is this idea that if you do one small thing, maybe you'll do more. And, and starting with, with breathing. Can you talk a little bit about, about the open eye, open eyes idea that, that you've started to do?

Yeah, thanks for bringing that up actually. So we have now, in part from qualitative member feedback and then in part just from looking at the quantitative metrics in our product data, we've noticed that people are gravitating towards video more. So, you know, that's the quant side and then the qual side. We've had members for varying reasons, some of them, you know, prior trauma, some of them from, you know, sort of intimidation factor around meditation, who have said, I don't really feel comfortable sitting with my eyes closed. Like, are there, are there more eyes open activities that I could do? Because as soon as I close my eyes, I have feelings that I would rather not, you know, address or things that come up or things that are just really uncomfortable or I don't feel safe in my physical environment, et cetera. So what we did is created more eyes open meditation. So they're kind of these like visual meditations. And especially Rosie Acosta and Dora Mao or two of our meditation teachers have some beautiful ones in the, in our National Parks collection. But they guide you on a walk through nature. And so there is, you know, there's a, there's a, a calming benefit to that, the, the way a, a meditation would, would operate for you. But there isn't that kind of like added, you know, like what, what can be really uncomfortable for some people. Practice of needing to close your eyes in order to get that benefit.

That's great. So, so it, it seems like the app has kind of lowered the barrier, the psychological and logistical barrier to doing this. But there have to be people out there who are just good at meditating. Like we all have the friends who are like, they wouldn't do an app. They would just do, they would just do it. They're just better than all of us. And so how, what have you learned about kind of these outliers or folks who actually have figured something out about the practice of meditation that that and potentially could be applied to, to the rest of us?

Yeah, that's a great question. So what we've observed in our long term members, like folks who have been using headspace for 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, some since the origin, 12 years, 13 years, is that they. Because they've, you know, kind of built a habit or a practice of meditation and mindfulness, they're really comfortable with that. So then they move into wanting more kind of insights and more like wisdom traditions and, and you know, things like the Long Time Academy, which is a really wonderful podcast and guided mindful practices series. It's in the Headspace app. So it's sort of like they have now, you know, created a habit of, of meditating and, and have relative ease there, but now they kind of want to deepen the insights that they're gaining from it. So we have like the pro level course, which is for that there's a couple levels of the pro course and there's semi guided and even unguided, which is essentially a timer for people who are very advanced and just want to, they want like the companionship of the app, but, but they don't necessarily need all the verbal guidance. Like the verbal guidance actually becomes a bit of a distraction for them.

So.

So we've definitely seen that. I think what's also important to bring up is that we have noticed from a lot of our different research that people come to Headspace for meditation and often the more that they do meditation, they gain so much more present moment awareness and so much more awareness of how they are feeling, you know, in this moment and then in general in their lives that they start to realize that they have other things that they want to work on. And that's why we have coaching, therapy, psychiatry, like coming into our overall ecosystem. It's available right now to our enterprise members, but you know, coming soon in different forms for, for our consumer members. But like people come in, they, they, you know, start to get present with how they're feeling, which, you know, meditation and mindfulness does, increasing your present moment awareness. And then they realize like, huh, like I'm actually really anxious or I'm really stressed out or like actually have like a feeling of sadness. I wonder what this is. And, and then from there it, meditation actually becomes a bit of a gateway into like more deep personal work. Like, okay, you know, now I, now I really want to like handle these things that, that have existed in my past for a long time that I've never really felt comfortable handling or that I wasn't even quite aware were bugging me. And now that I'm, you know, more present, more settled, more here, more, more aware in my daily life, I'm realizing, you know, there's, there's something I want to work on here. And so that's where like, you know, we even, we saw it in that 30 day diary study like where people say, you know, I actually like, could use some human support.

Yeah, it's a nice observation on kind of expertise by which if, if you get to be an expert at something, you continue to be curious about ways to better yourself. So if you're, you know, a, a professional athlete, you're constantly still thinking about ways to improve your form and make these small adjustments. And so it, it's possible that maybe what keeps folks going as they start is that the possibility of getting even better or evolve. Like it is kind of a ladder where folks are, are maybe moving up it like you, you practice, you see the results and you want to practice a little bit more. Do you think that is fair where expertise is like you're becoming a little bit more curious about yourself. And if that's the case, then how would we apply that to folks who are beginning, you know, who actually get, you know, I am someone who has given up many times. I have downloaded multiple meditation apps and, and have failed. And so I'm trying to think the, would the intervention for me be to maybe get a little bit more curious like about myself or how would you prescribe an intervention to someone like myself who I hope I'm not alone in giving up multiple times?

You're not alone, okay? You're not alone.

Not at all.

In fact, we see this behavioral pattern in our data where oftentimes people will download headspace, they will use it for a while and then they sort of disappear and then they come back and then they disappear and they come back and what it often just, just to like give you this because I think you'll enjoy this. What it often coincides with are life events. So something will happen in their life where they realize they need deeper support. Like whether that's a relationship ending, a job ending, getting pregnant is a big one. Like, you know, these big sort of like life stage transformation moments and then they re download the app or resign up because they're like, oof. I need coaching and guidance through this phase. You know, like all my previous skills worked for me for where I was, but now that I'm, you know, kind of faced with this new challenge, I need, I need some new coping skills and new guidance. So a new support. So, so there's that. But okay, but here's what I would prescribe an intervention to, you know, to your need state. I would say that this is where the user behavior of like, of habit stacking or of creating like anchors that are reminders comes in. And so what we've seen in, in you know, successful what I would, you know, it's weird to call someone a successful headspace user, but people who have formed a habit with headspace, what we have seen is that they often pair it with something else that they do in daily life. So Andy Puddicomb used to recommend, hey, pair this with brushing your teeth. You know, you wake up in the morning, you brush your teeth. Let that be kind of the, the anchor or the cue that then leads you into your morning meditation. We've also seen members who pair it with morning exercise. So like, you know, we've like an example of that would be someone taking their running shoes and putting those by the door and putting their meditation, their chair that they meditate in by the window and then creating this kind of habit stack in the morning of going first to the meditation chair, doing their meditation and then going and putting their running shoes on and going out the door for their morning run. And there's a lot of examples like that. But it's, but I would anchor it to a behavior you are already doing because that's what makes it easier. Then you're not going to not brush your teeth in the morning. Well, for most of us, you know, and so, so, so that being kind of like your little mental pinpoint and like, okay, good, I did that. Oh, what's next? Ah, you know, now I'm gonna get some headspace. I'm gonna take 10 or 15 or 20, whatever it is for that person.

Nice. And what I like about the that example is, is also the redesign of the environment. So this person, this mythical creature who does all the things but, but probably is a real person, changed her bedroom environment by which she has the chair next to her bed. And so you could imagine a world where you'd have to go upstairs or downstairs and maybe like in that time in between, you just forget. Like we, you know, in, in product design, if you add an extra field, people drop off. It's like, that's crazy. Like, what were you. Did you get distracted? It's like we had you. And so the, you know, having maybe your meditation thing on a different floor or farther from where you'll be actually could be this barrier and having the chair there potentially could be a trigger to remember and to, to do the thing. So that's, that's very nice. Kind of changing your environment to change.

Your behavior, I think. So. We live in a world where attention, tension itself has become a commodity and, and everything is vying for your attention. And there are a lot of apps that are monetized based on how much they can capture and keep your attention. And headspace is pretty unusual in that our explicitly stated goal is to give you more command and control over your own attention. Like, that is pretty unusual in the world of product design. Like I, you know, you know, the kind of like hooked mentality is, you know, get people in and keep them in for as long as possible. And, and that is absolutely the opposite of headspace. That Headspace, you know, our intention is get in for what you need, for you to feel better and then get off of the app and go live your life. And that's why for us, like daily active days is, is a more important measurement or like, you know, a content play, but not like minute in the app. Like, we would not ever measure that because that is, that would actually defeat the purpose of, of of what we are doing. So. Yeah, so anyway, I, I think there's like something a little unusual and, and like a bit weird about that. But, but you know, that's, that's kind of our. It's a different mentality.

Yeah. So it's not time spent, but it is like o. It's opening something and, and lovely. It. It aligns with the user's goals. So just kind of like peloton is like they can want you to get back in the app, but that's good because you do want to exercise. That's the goal of you signing up for the app. And so you have this like, beautiful alignment of, of business and user intentions. But how do you bring folks back to the app. So what's the reminder strategy that you guys have. Have figured out?

Yeah, we have a couple. So we have a, A daily mindful moment, which is a notification that someone gets, you know, to their lock screen that has, like, a very lovely kind of insight, a little wisdom moment. So it's a nice reminder both of some of the kinds of insights you have when you're doing meditation and mindfulness, and then also just like a little bit of a, A breather in the day, you know, so when you get it, you. You kind of are like, oh, that's really lovely. So we have that and then we also have little notifications and reminders that, you know, we'll send to people from our. Our internal life cycle team that are around, like, different topics that that person has been interested in. So, you know, if we have a new sleep cast, which is our. Our sleep stories, and this is someone who has used sleep content a lot in the past. You know, we can send a little like, hey, we actually have this new, you know, I, I know I'm talking about our National Parks partnership a lot because I'm kind of obsessed with it, but, you know, we have a new sleep cast in Joshua Tree or, you know, for our kids and parents, like, we have a new Sesame Street Elmo sleep story, and which are very beloved. So these sort of, like, reminders based on your interest become really important. So it's like actually connecting with, you know, why is someone here, like, what is, what are the topics they're interested in and what are the, like, kind of obvious, you know, need states or like, areas of their overall health that they're clearly wanting to work on if they're doing a sleep content predominantly or meditation, and then aligning those notifications and reminders to them. So they're, they're, you know, they're tailored to what a person is doing versus just kind of a, like, hey, you forgot to come back to the app, which would again, never do.

Yeah, this is, this is really nice because it seems so meditation and I'm gonna. Has. I'm gonna. So forgive me if I offend you. Has no benefit in the beginning. It takes a while. I'm sure. I'm sure having a deep breath is going to be good. But as you said, you need to come back. You need to do it about, you know, three times a week for 10 minutes to really feel some, like, sustained stress reduction. And so you kind of have to give people some benefit to do a thing if they're going to do the thing. And so I like the notification strategy that's paired with and like obvious in hindsight, but probably not obvious to most teams. Like paired with the interest, the thing that they are most curious about, that they have expressed an interest to dive deeper in. And if they can't actually achieve that end outcome of stress, at least they're kind of learning on it and exploring it and making that association that meditation could in theory in the future if they do it, you know, work for them and the interests that they're, they're focused on. So I'm sure that probably wasn't as obvious to the content team in the beginning, but it seems obvious now that of course you should pair a notification with some interest, especially for a product that has delayed benefits.

Yeah, well, and also here's what I'll say about meditation. It actually does have immediate benefits. What we have found is that people do actually feel better. Most, most of our users feel better right away from doing that first meditation. Like there is an immediate value of their, you know, that sort of sense of relaxation and their nervous system, you know, kind of coming down, landing a little bit. It's not necessarily something that sustains though, you know, that just from one session. So where, like, where it becomes really important to create a habit is like, how are you then able to respond more resiliently in times of stress, you know, to like, for your actual, like measurable stress levels to come down, you know, to a degree that, that, that is actually substantial. Like those require creation of a habit. But there is for most people, I will say, not for everyone, but like for most people there is an immediate, you know, sense of, of calming that happens just from one.

Yes, I get, I get an immediate benefit from being able to tell people that I meditated. I'm like, I just did this thing and that makes me feel good to tell you. Anyway, no, this is brilliant.

Honestly, that's probably a user type that we should be studying. Oh my God.

I mean the, the preacher mentality or the idea that basically, you know, meditation is tough because it's by yourself. And it, it is funny that folks pay to go to a 10 day meditation to sit in silence because you could do that by yourself. But intuitively, no, we know that that's really difficult to sit for 10 days by yourself and not do it. So you're putting yourself in a situation with other people that kind of create the norm that other people are doing this. So it's, it's like this conundrum that meditation is very solo and yet it kind of has to involve other people, you know, to like make it seem either more real or kind of, you know, you know, create an identity for you that that could sustain. Sustain the beginning at least before you have that habit stacking habit or habit stacking magic moments. So Headspace is in a category of products where the benefit can be delayed, where in the future people will see a benefit and today they may not see as much of a benefit as tomorrow. And so how do you help them like understand the future benefit or at least acknowledge that it could be. Could be coming?

Yeah, it's a good question. So what we do to acknowledge the future benefit and like, you know, that it may take a little while to get kind of the big feeling results that you're hoping for is. Well, we do many things, but the kind of key one that I'd love to talk about is in the profile in the Headspace app we have a section called My Progress. And in that feature we allow people to do a self reported measure on stress, the pss, and a self reported measure of their anxiety, which is the Gad7 the anxiety. They, they can fill out the survey once every two weeks. The stress survey, they can fill out once a month. And then we nudge people in the app, we have like a little modal that comes up that says, hey, you know, it's time to do your monthly stress check in. You know, would you like to do it now or would you like to be reminded later? And they can choose one of two options. And if they do it now, you know, they fill out those, those 10 questions and then they have the option to write a little journal entry at the end that is essentially kind of the reminder to themselves of like, why were they feeling that way that month. And what this allows is for people to see their change over longer spans of time. Because I, I would say like a very important part of meditation and mindfulness and working on one's mental health is like, there is also a real value to zooming out and looking at your life from a longer span of time versus this quick, quick, quick, quick, quick immediacy that the modern world like really loves to funnel us into. But to have these moments to zoom out and go, oh, wow, my stress was really high that month. Like, wow, it was really high in, you know, July. What was going on there? And then you can read your journal entry and see like, ah, that was, you know, when a loved one was sick or you know, XYZ happened or oh, wow, you know, it was, it was lower there. Well, that's interesting because that's like when I started meditating every day. So that's interesting. Like, there's some correlation between, like, what I was doing and how I was feeling. And I think what's really grounding about, like, having those. That stress score and the anxiety score is that you're actually quantifying something that can feel so nebulous and so messy and so confusing. Like, I don't know, am I making progress? I don't know, am I less stressed out this month than last month? I don't know.

I'm actually.

See it. It's cool.

And it's. It's kind of a problem that you, I would imagine, face at kind of the brand level, which is like, it's really a hard thing for me to detect. This small change in my behavior drove me to feel less stressed out on an average basis. Like, it's hard for humans to attribute this, you know, this idea that I, I meditate now 10 minutes a day. I mean, you could have changed your walk to work or you could have started dating somebody new. There's lots of things in their environment. So I do like this idea for having you guys take more credit. You know, we're having basically saying, like, okay, well, I'm gonna get to reflect. But also, you know, this. We are a part of that story versus, you know, maybe other. Maybe they attribute it just purely to themselves. We tend to take more credit than we deserve. So feel free to punch into this if you want, but. But I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about. So what have you guys learned about the paying to meditate? Like the. The premium mental model versus a. This state of the game? I think there's almost no real free medit, maybe a few free meditations, but 90% of the meditations or sleep or stress are going to be behind a paywall. Tell me about that, like, process and that decision.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. When we first experimented with changing the way that our. Our, you know, free versus premium model work, a big part of it was around the confusingness of our different subscription types. Like, it was actually very confusing in the product. Like, do I have free membership? Do I not? Like, there's quite a lot of free content here for me. So maybe I do have a paid subscription, but I don't have access to everything. So why is that? Because we had elements that were free and elements weren't. Now almost everything is behind the paywall, but. But we are actually experimenting with changing Some of that. What we noticed though, just from, I think this was very relevant to you and you know, the topic of behavior, what we noticed is that for people who were paying that was a. And this is like obvious I guess in hindsight, but you know, it felt new to us when we were researching it. We noticed that people who paid have a much higher degree of utilization of the app. They were much more active, you know, more active days. They were, you know, much more consistent in their use of the app because like they had a sense of like financial accountability to use it. So you know, for people who could afford to pay for it, they were using it in, you know, that, that payment was kind of like their, you know, stake in the ground to say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to like invest in feeling better or invest in my, myself, my mental health and well being and I'm going to, I'm going to actually use it and, and I'll give you like some data on this because I think it's interesting what we have noticed amongst our users who are what we call B2B or enterprise users who are getting it covered as a covered benefit through work. They have much lower active days, much lower utilization because to them, you know, it's a free thing. It's like, okay, you know, it's like, oh, fun. It becomes like a nice to have versus someone who has invested in it and said, this is something that, you know, I want to pay for because I want to make sure I'm doing this habit and I want to, I want to start to, you know, feel better or I want to learn this practice of meditation.

Thank you for listening. If you like the show, go to irrational labs.com to say hello to us or post a review on Apple or Spotify. Big thank you to the show's two Jax, Jack Buer, our writer and Jack Steger, our genius editor. Until next time.