Donna Schwenk on Kefir, Kombucha and Fermented Vegetables

Hey, guys, Kevin Govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science. My colleague next to me, James Shadrach, is all things psychology. And today we have. I'm actually, I'm staggered. I am so blessed to have one of the people that inspired me many, many years ago when I first started my journey into gut health and fermented foods.

And.

And today we have Donna Schwenk from Cultured Food Life. Donna, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, guys. I'm thrilled to be here.

Did I get your name right? Donna Schwenk.

Donna Schwenk. You did good.

Awesome. So, Donna, when we start off our shows, we typically like to set the scene for our audience. And the question I have for you is, who is Donna Schwenkins?

Well, you know, I have. This is. This has been like a 17, 18 year journey for me. About 18 years ago, I found myself. I was 41 at the time. I found myself pregnant with my third child, much to my surprise, which I might add. It was 100% my husband's fault, by the way, because I didn't expect to be pregnant at 41. I got very, very sick. And she had to be born like eight weeks early to save my life because my liver was shutting down and a bunch of other problems. And here I was and I knew I had this baby to raise and I felt horrible. I had diabetes, I had high blood pressure, I had all kinds of problems, and I had a little newborn infant counting on me. And I felt so guilty that she was born early to save my life. And I just decided I was going to find the answers. And I started to pray for answers. I didn't know what to do, you know, modern medicine or whatever, western medicine was just, you know, medicate. And I knew that there was reasons I had diabetes and there was a reason I had high blood pressure. And there's a lot of answers out there now for that. But what was so surprising to me was about three weeks after I really started to get serious and try to search for answers for my daughter because she was. Because she was so premature. She had a lot of problems. And so I started looking for answers for her instead of for myself. And I was in a health food store and I pulled two books off of a shelf and one of those books I opened in my lap and it opened to this page on this fermented drink called kefir, which I'd never heard of, didn't know what it was, thought it was interesting. Shut the book, opened the other book. And it too opened to a page on Kiefer. And I was shocked when I saw it. Right at that moment, a store employee was walking by me, saw me reading that book, turned around, stood in front of me and said, that is the most important book you will ever read. You should really pay attention. And then he just walked away. And I was flipping out at that point. I didn't know what that meant. So I bought both of those books. One was Bodycology by Donna Gates. The other book was Nursing Traditions by Sally Fallon. And I went to the store to find this drink they called Kefir. Bought it, went home, started giving it to my daughter, and. And in three weeks, I watched my little infant transform. She started sleeping through the night. She started gaining weight, which is a lot of a struggle for preemies. The color came back in her cheeks. She became super healthy. And I started drinking it too. And I remember the day that everything changed. I had been drinking it for three weeks. I was standing in the kitchen doing dishes, and I suddenly found myself in my front yard filling up all my bird feeders. That may not seem like a big deal to you, but it was a big deal to me because weeks before, I didn't give a rip about the birds because I felt so bad. I just was caring for myself and just getting through the day. And I remember standing in that front yard, looking around, and the grass was greener and the birds, they were singing like never before. And I felt so good, and I didn't know what was wrong with me. I had. My blood pressure had lowered to normal levels and so had my blood sugars. And I felt a sense of well being that I had never known. And that started this journey of what had happened to me and what had happened to my daughter. And I would stay up late at night while I was feeding her, because I had to feed her all the time because she was so tiny. And I started researching, and there wasn't a ton of research, but I found little snippets here and there. And I started doing this, drinking this every day and experimenting with myself. And I started telling my friends. And I watched my friends get better and I watched their kids get better. And it's no, it just started to word of mouth. And just through people getting better, I started to realize that the answers to my prayers were in this crazy jar that had billions and trillions of microorganisms in them. And they had made me well. And I wanted to know why. And that started this journey. And here I am today because I have a grateful heart. Because when something makes you well, you pay attention. And I've never turned back. And I just led me to where everything that I've done now micros are where it's at for me. They were my angels in disguise, so. But they changed everything for me.

That's a beautiful story about how, you know, it's almost selflessness as well, because it started with your daughter being premature and being ill and that kind of triggered you to investigate how you can address it.

Yeah, because I didn't want to heal myself. I wanted to heal her more.

Yes.

In turn, when I healed her, I healed myself. That's how it works. When you help somebody or you help yourself, you turn around and help others and it just. You can't. That's what is so cool about wellness. Most health and wellness experts are usually struggling with something at one time. The wonderful thing is when you get well, you can't help but attract that into other to others. Others are just attracted to it because everybody's looking for that. And when you do that, when you make yourself well, you change not just your world, but everybody's world around you because they take notice. Because if they're seeking that, they're going to see that in you. I love that, that quote by Rumi that says what you seek is seeking you. And I really believe that. I believe that, you know what, what you are seeking is always trying to find its way to you, but you have to open up the channels and. And when somebody's, well, they're a lighthouse, it changes everybody around them because you just can't help it. So making yourself well is the best way to help anybody.

Totally. Totally. And a lot of people feel that it's selfish to look after yourself, but I disagree. I think that it's very important to actually be the best version of yourself because then you can serve others so much more effectively. So it started with a selfless journey for yourself, and then you've managed to address your health issues and now you are a beacon in the world, spreading the knowledge on kefir, kombucha, fermented foods, fermented vegetables. And I mentioned just before we started the podcast that we have a Facebook group of almost 10,000 people called the Gut Health Gurus. And there is so many people on that group that directly attribute their health benefits and their health journey to you, Donna. So I just wanted to express my. And that includes myself. So I just want to express publicly my heartfelt appreciation and gratitude for what you are doing to make the world a better place. Thank you so much.

I think we're all brothers and sisters, and everybody has special gifts. And honestly, I wouldn't be here if people like yourself and other people hadn't encouraged me because I did not want to. I skipped English in high school and paid my sister to do my homework. So I didn't like writing. I didn't want to do any of the things that I'm doing now. But honestly, people just kept bugging me to do it. And because they bugged me, I overcame those insecurities and struggles, and now I love writing. And down, buried down within me were treasures that were covered up with sickness and disease, Things I didn't want to do because I thought they were too hard or things I couldn't do, things I didn't have the capability of doing. But had I not gotten sick and found my way to wellness, I would never be an author today. I would never be doing the things, the classes and the things that I'm doing because it was masked by not feeling well. And so not only did I help other people, but you guys helped me, because I wouldn't be here if people weren't asking if they didn't want my help. And I couldn't tell them no when they were. They said, donna, please write a book so we can keep it in our kitchen. And I'm like, I don't know how to write a book. I don't know how to do that. Do you know what I'm saying? You can't ask me to do that. And couldn't tell them no. After a while, it just. It took a few years, and then three books later, you know, it was like. It's really. It's just. It's a circle. We all have gifts. We all. And a lot of people helped me, too. As far as you know, I have editors. I have. Thank God for editors. I have editors. I have, you know, people who inspired me. And so it's a win, win. We're all in this together anyway.

Totally. And we'll definitely be linking to your three books. I thought there was two, but now there's three linking on the show notes to all those books so people can find them and explore further. But I thought, now, let's go deep. We're both very passionate about fermented foods. And so I posed to the group that you were coming on, and there was a whole lot of questions that people had for you. I kind of segmented it into three separate nice little boxes One being kefir, one being kombucha and one being fermented vegetables. So let's start with kefir and let's explore that a bit further. So you mentioned so eloquently how you started your journey with kefir.

So with kefir, it's my favorite fermented food because it has the most benefits and it's the thing that made me well from the get go. So I had to live on a desert island. That would be the one I'd take because it has the most benefits, I think.

Yes. And that was. We had numerous questions from the group because people are so time poor. And the question was if you could pick one, what would it be? And I think your answer is clearly kefir.

And it's the easiest one to make.

Too, by the way, and fastest. So is it milk kefir that's more preferable for you or water kefir?

It's milk. And the thing about this is that you can make it non dairy too. But most of the benefits that I received came from the milk because. And it's okay, a lot of people freak out about milk today, but when you ferment completely changes the food. I mean you put vitamin C into it and more B vitamins. You had probiotics, you remove the lactose, you transform the food by fermenting it. And so it's, I think it's a completely different food than regular dairy. Goat's will keeper is fantastic too. That's another one of my favorites. But I do a lot of non dairy. I mean my daughter had. What did she have? Oh, there's a new milk. It's a non dairy milk and it's made out of almonds and cashews. And I made that for my daughter this week because she was wanting some. So I do, do all of them think there's more benefits in making this than like. And I love cultured vegetables and kombucha and water kefir. But in water kefir there's 14 good bacterias and yeast, whereas with, you know, milk kefir or the other ones, it's 50 plus. Yes, that's one of the reasons I love it so much. And plus every time I, I did an experiment last year where I stopped drinking, it stopped having all cultured foods, that wasn't a, was not a good thing. I had all kinds of things that started popping up after about six weeks and so I went straight back to it. So I wanted to see what would happen. Yeah, I was like, okay, we're not doing this anymore. Exactly. And the reason that is is because there's some transient bacterias in them. So they don't last very long in the body. Some of them do. Some of them stay permanently, but not all of them. So those transient bacterias that only last two to three days are the ones that really, I think I need.

Totally, 100% agree. I know when I have to travel, I actually pack some milk, kephir in my bag and I take it wherever I go because I know just a day or two without it and you can really feel it. I mean, your immune system is not working as well. And plus all those beneficial nutrients and transient bacteria, it also makes you feel more nourished.

I'm not as hungry. Yes. I don't eat as much when I have it. I seem to be more nourished with it. Helps you digest everything you eat with it. But I don't eat as much food when I have that every day. And I've seen it do so many things, different people. So it shocks me. I mean, if you guys could see the letters I got every day, you would be flabbergasted. People wouldn't believe me. They think I was making it up. I have this place called Lives Touched on my page. People send in pictures and stories, but I get so many that it is. It's mind blowing. Like my daughter, who's 17, if she doesn't have it every day, then she gets acne. Okay? If my son doesn't have it, he has it ulcer that will flare up. My other husband, it helps keep his blood pressure low and it keeps him from having acid refrigerants. So it does different things for different people. But I find that very. And I've seen it. I've seen it do so many things that it's mind blowing.

You might be interested in this. Last year, I hooked myself up to a continuous glucose monitor and I had pretty much monitoring my glucose levels 24, 7 for about seven days. And I found that just having kefir actually lowered my blood glucose levels. So that's an interesting side note for another.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I started drinking. It was because it got rid of my diabetes. And I wasn't. I didn't have. I had diabetes. My blood sugar numbers were off, you know, bad. They were horrible, but they weren't good enough that I was diabetic. And kefir just plummeted it. It just made it go into the normal range. And then that made me clean Up a lot of my other eating, too. So that was. That's important too. But I have seen that and I get a lot of emails about that. And it's. Most of those sugars are almost all gone. So it doesn't bump your blood sugar up when you have it at all because it just. It's so low in sugar, like 1%. And so it's great for diabetics.

So. Yeah, so that's. That's amazing, Donna. So I thought we'll go into, I guess, a question from the audience, so to speak. So how. Just describe to us the first time you had an explosion in the kitchen, if that ever happened.

Oh, I've had so many explosions. Well, that was with kombucha, and it was grape kombucha, and I would ferment it. You do the second ferment for kombucha. For those who aren't familiar, original kombucha is just a plain tea and sugar, and then it eats the sugars out of it, makes it bubbly. Well, I was doing what they called second ferment, where you added juice to it and grape juice. And I was experimenting, and the warmer the bottles are, the faster they fermented. But my kitchen had been really cold prior to that, so I had kind of ignored them and wasn't checking them often. So the first time that happened, I opened it and it hit the ceiling. And we had grape juice stains on this. Grape kombucha stains on the ceiling. And I had done some more. Some more grape kombucha. And my husband had fixed the ceiling, and he was in the living room and he heard it blow again. He heard me had let it go too long, and he goes, what was that? And I said, nothing. You can see the kombucha hanging from the ceiling.

You know.

This happened. I was kind of getting. I didn't really know what I was doing. This is in the early days, because now I understand how to not let that happen, because I was over fermenting it. And you check it often. But after about the third or fourth time of that happening, he just left the stains on the ceiling and said it was just going to have to be our work blowing them up. But after a while, I haven't done that in a very long time. So it's been eight, nine, ten years since that happened.

So I think it's almost like a rite of passage for somebody.

The first time you see that bubbliness come out of that jar, it's just a thrill. Do you know what I mean, and then you're like, oh, I can make it better. And then you let it over ferment and that pressure builds up and then boom. So. But then I got better bottles too. That's another. I got those flip top bottles and they work a lot better.

Totally. A common trap people fall into is they buy these cheap bottles from a $2 store. And literally I've seen glass like.

Oh, yeah, we've had people have them blow up in their refrigerator.

Yes.

Yeah. So that's scary too. And on the counter. So you don't want to buy the glass bottles from like craft stores because those will not. You want good bottles made for brewing.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. And so let's keep going on the questions. So I think we covered your life before and after kefir. That was one of the questions. So what's your thoughts on milk kefir fermented anaerobically and aerobically. So with lid on and lid off.

Okay. So I have always done it with the lid on. And when I have. A lot of people have problems when they do it with a cloth and a rubber band. And what will happen is, you know, wild yeast or whatever it is, get into that and sometimes it will create a pink like yeast like covering on the grains and then it starts to taste funny and it tastes off. Nobody ever has any problem when they use a lid. So I've always used a lid. But there's a lot of people that recommend using it. Just a cloth and rubber band, you know, doing it robbly. But I have found the benefits were better when I used a lid. So that's what I always recommend. And then you don't never get into trouble. You never get that white fuzzy stuff on top of your kefir, which a lot of people. And sometimes it'll even turn pink, which is a. It's a harmless yeast. It's. It's a harmless yeast that's known to fermenting, called comma yeast. And that can happen on vegetables too, but it just makes it taste off. And if you leave it on there too long, it can ruin the flavor of your kefir. And so you don't want to do that. And then the kefir can kind of start acting a little funky. So I always recommend using a lid and then you don't have those problems.

Couldn't agree more. I think even for fermenting milk, if you. With the lid on, you're going to be suppressing a lot of those yeast species that you. You mentioned that like oxygen, and then encourage the lactobacilli, which is the key kind of probiotic bacteria and strains in the kefir. So 100% agree. The next one. I get this question all the time. Metal strainer, is it okay.

For kefir or for kombucha? No, but for kefiri it's fine. Because if you use stainless steel because it's non oxidating, I have used that for 17 years. You shouldn't leave it on it because it can degrade metals, but it doesn't really degrade stainless steel because it's not oxidating. So it's okay for use stainless steel but not to use regular metals. And you shouldn't really leave it on the metals. I mean, I've made it in a jar with them, you know, the lids and it's been fine, but I don't have it up against it. The kefir doesn't get up against the lid. So. Because it does. Here's the thing. It breaks down things. It breaks down toxins inside of you, but it also can do that in the containers you put it in. So I always use glass. I like plastic lids, although sometimes I've used metal. And if you're gonna strain it, use a stainless steel strainer. You can use plastic, but they're just a pain. Actually, I just. The plastic ones don't have a big enough hole. It takes longer for it to get through. So I've always used stainless steel and it's all always worked fine. And I've been doing it 17 years.

So I must say as well, the guys from Slovenia, Kefia Co. Send their best wishes.

Oh, I love them.

They're great guys. They're partners with Nourishment Organics as well. I actually went up to Slovenia, was it middle of last year, to actually meet them. They're wonderful.

The Kirk people, is that you're talking about?

Yeah, I love them because I know you did some work with them with their cheesemaker recipes. So that's the one.

I'm still working with them, trying to figure out how to get them affordably into this country because it's hard to get their products here. And I love their cheese strainer. Love it. I think terrific. And I love them. I think they're great and I really would like to see them succeed. It's just. It's hard too with. I've actually hooked them up with somebody that I have my own cultures, cutting edge cultures and Easykeeper, and I've actually hooked them up with them to see if there's a way we can get this to come into the US in an easier way and to other parts of the world so that they've got great products.

It's great quality products. I've been to the factory where they assemble all their parts and it's such a beautiful part of the world. These guys are perfectionists when it comes to their products. They're very passionate about it. They have a beautiful story behind them as well. But my point is I highly recommend using a high quality glass as well because of the don't use cheap glasses. The Kefia Co product is really from. It's made in Europe, it's made in Italy, so it's not going to react to the product. There's no lead, there's no contaminants, they're very strict and they use a BPA free plastic strainer on the lid as well. So it's very, very good.

That's a great strainer too, by the way.

That's a great strainer because they have.

Two inside of one. And I love how it, it makes the most beautiful kefir cheese because it makes it in this little tiny cylinder thing. And I absolutely love it because it's perfect. If you just flip it over and put things on top of it like fruits or nuts, it just looks beautiful too. I really love it. They did a great job.

The designer Marco is a perfectionist when it comes to the aesthetics of the product. And I think because we all know kefu making is repetitive tvs, I think you'd agree with that, Donna. It's a daily chore. So it's extremely handy to have something that looks beautiful if it's sitting on your benchtop rather than a bit of tea towel and a glass jar.

Yeah, it works great. They did a great job. And then you eat more keeper cheese. So it's great.

Keeper cheese is awesome. It's such a good way to use all your excess milk cafe because it's. There's only so much milk affair you can have but around longer. Turning it into cheese is a great, great idea. I wanted to come back to a couple of points that you mentioned. Now firstly, the kombucha you mentioned, I think we're going to jump around a bit. So it's not going to be the nice little boxes that I wanted with the different ferments. But in terms of the kombucha you mentioned that maybe metal is not the best thing for it. Can you elaborate a little bit on why that is the case?

Well, and it's okay to do. I guess stainless steel is okay with kombucha too. You can do that. Although I don't. But it is okay. I know people who use that, especially the companies that sell kombucha. Often they'll use the quality of grade stainless steel because it doesn't oxidize. But if you use metal at all with kombucha that's not stainless steel, it will degrade it. I mean, I even had it bother my wedding ring. It was gold because it was just, it was starting to degrade it. And the thing about it is that it does that inside of you too. It likes to help assist your liver in removing heavy metals and things like that. Your normal digestive system doesn't handle very well. And what's interesting about that is that let's say you ingest somehow or you get exposed to mercury. The only thing that can really digest that is Candida. Did you know that? That's why we have candida in small amounts in our body, because it can degrade that in a way that our regular digestive system cannot. Now, you don't want that to grow out of its bounds. And the best way to keep that candida in its proper place is to have lots of good bacteria. And then it pushes it over to the corner where it belongs. The only way to really get candida to explode is to give yourself an antibiotic. And then it has all this room to grow and multiply. But those heavy metals in our body are hard on us because our digestive system can't really handle it. So that's why we have these yeasts that can break them down. However, kombucha can greatly assist the body in doing that. It really helps increase your ability to degrade from those things. Often they're stored away in your tissues and your, your fat tissues to keep them away from your organs. But that's one of the things that kombucha is great at, is it. It helps assist your, you know, your body in removing those things. And so it does that in the containers that it's in. If it's in the wrong container, it will degrade the metal. So that's why you want to use glass, strong food grade plastic. You can use that. But it's got to be the. No, I think it's the number five. I can't remember which one it is. Not regular plastics because it will degrade those and then they'll get it. But you want to use glass or porcelain that's not lead based or something that's very strong because it does tend to. That's its job is to break down and to, you know, remove things.

So yeah, that's fascinating. I've never heard that before that the. I guess Candida can actually break down mercury. So I'm definitely going to dig in deep to the research and have a look at what I can dig up on that because that's. Thank you so much for actually sharing that information. I really appreciate it.

I didn't know that myself until I started researching the probiotics yeast that were in kombucha. I didn't know that it could do that. And there's a special yeast, it's a probiotic that's in Kombucha. Saccharomyces valeria I believe is what it's called. And it is the number one probiotic used in hospitals worldwide. It's really, really fantastic because it cannot be killed by antibiotics because it's a probiotic yeast.

Yes.

And that is one of the strong things that makes Kombucha stand out and do its job more effectively is because it actually acts like a pathogen in the body and attracts pathogens to it and then destroys and kills them. And so it's kind of cool how it works, but it only lasts a few days more body. So that's one of the powerful weapons that Kombucha has that is such a benefit to our own bodies and to our lives, that helps us and keeps us healthy. And if you have taken antibiotic, Kombucha is a great thing to keep, help keep your body in balance because it doesn't get killed by antibiotics.

That's some great, great advice there. And another thing that you touched upon was using I guess a starter culture making vegetables. So again, we're going to jump around a bit. But you mentioned the cutting edge product in Australia. We really like the Caldwells product. I think they're kind of similar. They have similar strains of. I think it's Lactobacillus plantarum. So what's your thoughts on making fermented vegetables using these starters? Other cutting edge or Coldwells?

Yeah, it's really interesting. This is a question I get asked a lot and here's the deal. You can make cultured vegetables with just salt. You need to make sure you use enough salt so you can drop the pH. But what I have found is that a lot of people that will ferment their cultured vegetable for like six weeks, what happens is the bacteria, the probiotics diminish because as the bacteria runs out of food to eat, it starts to diminish. And we had a microbiologist test that for us, and we realized that it would diminish over time. That's why we only recommend fermenting cultured vegetables for six days and then placing their food refrigerator where it preserves them. But what we also found is that we didn't use a starter culture that you got, oh, my goodness, 75% less probiotics than you would if you added a starter culture. And we designed the starter culture to be the exact thing that naturally occurs in cultured vegetables, plus a little bit more to give it some more strength. And what I found in my early days, before cutting edge cultures was around, was that when I used to start a culture in my thing like Caldwell's or, you know, I got more benefits. I got rid of colds and flus faster. My family stayed well, better. When I didn't use a starter culture, they did. They weren't as effective. I noticed that right away in the very few years of making cultured vegetables. And I also knew my vegetables lasted and tasted better longer. They would last nine months in my refrigerator perfectly preserved. But I did notice I got more of that yeasty stuff on my vegetables when I didn't use a starter culture. Now, if people don't want to buy the product and buy a start coat, they don't have to. They can use salt. I want them to make the cultured vegetable. I don't care how they make them. I want them to do it because I want them to get well. I'm just telling what has worked for me. I think it's better, but it's not necessary. I want people to make them. So if you can't find it or you can't afford it, please make them anyway with salt. And just make sure you use enough salt to drop the pH. And the vegetables know what to do. They're amazing. They make their own, you know, lactobacilli, and it's, it's. They make abundant amounts of different kinds of it's. Planetarum is what the main bacteria in cultured vegetables, but it is. They do it themselves. They're smart, they kind of know what they're doing. I just gave them a little boost. So.

I'll sudden it a little bit there yet. The other thing I find with using a starter culture is that it takes that disappointment factor out when you do the mold spoilage or you don't get a product that's aesthetically or it can.

Taste bad if you get that mold and it will get worse over time if you don't remove it. And then removing it is a pain. It's hard sometimes because it can get it all over everything and I don't have time for that. Yeah. They also kept my vegetables crunchier, I noticed.

Yes, totally.

I liked that. And you could tell by the way they bubbled and they fermented. They just did better. And I just was like. And the cool thing was I could use the brine from that jar to make another jar because it would have it in there. So it was very easy for me to use. And yes, I. Yes, I love them. I love the circle and that's all I use. I don't make them with salt anymore. I have a couple of times to show people how to do it on my website because I want them to have the option, but I do it because it makes my life easier and I get more probiotics. That's the bottom line.

That's it. And you mentioned just using salt. So if someone's interested in just using salt, some are purists. In terms of. Without any starter culture, what is your recommended salt ratios to vegetables?

I have it on my website because I don't do it. It's usually double what you would use with. You need to double it, whatever it calls for. If it's a tablespoon per a gallon and with a starter culture, then you need to use at least two and sometimes three. If you're doing cabbage, tablespoons of salt per gallon, and that makes it kind of salty, but it drops the ph and you want. Want that without the culture. And so that's what. That's normally the recommendation for it. Now, other vegetables are. They vary, they're different. But if you're making cabbage and you're doing kraut, then it's 2 to 3 tablespoons of salt per gallon. If you don't use starter culture, I.

Think for the Aussies, they need to jump onto Google and do a quick metric.

Oh, that's right. So what are tablespoons? Yeah, you'll have to do a conversion because I have no idea.

Google's our friend.

Yes, it is.

So that's excellent. So with different vegetables, there's going to be slightly different water content, so you need to adjust accordingly. But what we'll do is we'll link to, I guess, the particular page on Donna's website. So if people want to dig deeper into making different ferments, they can follow the link.

Yeah, I can give you those links and I have a recipe for that too, by the way. Yeah. To make it just with salt.

So wonderful. So we'll link to that. So other questions. So a lot of people want to. They're particularly interested in boosting grain growth. For instance. For instance, milk kefir. We start there. Now what's your. Your go to in terms of encouraging grain growth for milk kefir, whether it's.

Processed or food, it's mostly just, you know, it's an organism. So the more you feed it, the more it's going to grow. Now any of these prebiotics or I use a prebiotic to feed to keep this stuff called prebio plus that I add to it. It's a basically fertilizer for kefir, but it's also for you. You can use it in your foods. That's how I make them grow. But the best way to make them grow without that is to just make it every day to not let them over ferment. Because if they over ferment they separate into whey and curds. Get them before they do that and do it every day and keep them in about 70 degree temperature or warmer. 70 to 75 is going to make your grains grow like crazy. And if they're not growing, then there's something wrong. They should double every week. My grains for 17 years have been doubling every week. And I have a lot of grains. Okay. I mean if they're not, they've gotten cold, they're either cold or we're not feeding them as often. Most of the time it's cold. Cold slows them down or the grains, something's happened and they, they've not been fed properly. But I'm a crazy person about feeding my grains. But people, I let my staff handle it. When people write us and tell us that they've killed my kefir grains because I can't handle it. You know what I'm saying? Because mine have been going strong for 17 years. You know, I feed them every single day. They get fed, I give them prebio plus which is a little pre. It's like you can find it in which I don't recommend you giving this to keeper grains, but it's in. It's inulin is what it is. It's a prebiotics made from the peels of lemons and fruits and all kinds of vegetables and fruits that have prebiotic fibers in them. And so basically they eat those fibers and then they double and grow even more because. And it's so funny, the first time I feed it to them, the first day they don't grow very much because they have so much food. The little grains are full and so they don't reproduce as much. But then the second day they double like what they were the day before. They. They grow twice as fast. So the first day they don't do much and the second day you're going to. But honestly, you shouldn't have trouble growing your grains. Even if you don't give them pre bioplast, they should do that naturally. That's just what they do. They're little. I had trouble. I had trouble. This was in October. I had sold so many grains I was starting to run out and I just panicked. I mean, I was like, oh my gosh. I couldn't get them to grow. I mean, they're growing, but I didn't have enough. So I just had to chill out and let them do their thing. And just. My husband was the one who started. He was the one that said, donna, we've got to make sure we shake these jars. So it redistributes the food. And that really made a difference. And I had to keep it at a certain temperature. We've refined the art of this. So if I want to grow faster than normal, I give them more food. But I don't give it to them every day. I give them free bio. Free Bio plus and we sell that. And you can get it on Amazon and you can get in Australia actually. And. But anyway, it's a. This is the white powder and you can put in your coffee or tea and it helps the good bacteria grow inside of you too. However, don't take very much. Start out slowly because it does tend to work really fast. But I just. If I give that to them once or twice a week, they go absolutely bonkers. They love it. But I see a difference inside of me too. I even have put it inside my ketchup bottles and everything that my family eats without them knowing it. It's a way that I put cultured foods into their food. They don't know it. So I. Great supplements. So anyway, it's also in other products too. It's in sweet leaves, stevia, the powder version. But I don't recommend you giving stevia to kefir grains. But if you want to get the prebiotic and just use it in your tea or something, that one also has that. Ecology diet. That's the same type of a product too. And it works really well too.

It's so funny, we've both come up to the. With the same conclusion with Inulin because In our premix, we have a growth premix and we actually use inulin as well for milk kefir. So isn't that funny?

Inulin is the bomb when it comes to making your grains grow. And it loves it. It's so funny. The first day I give it to them, they're like, okay, we're not gonna grow very much this day and they don't grow that day. I give it to them because they're so full of that. They don't, you know, I'm saying they don't, they don't need any more food, so they don't grow. You stress them just a little bit like that, they grow like crazy. So then the next day when I don't give it to them, then they go bananas.

I wanted to side note that for, especially for our group members from the gut health gurus, listen to what Donna's saying. Consistency of fermenting milk kefir grains every day is one of the key to maintaining good grain health. It's not like you're going to use a powdered packet kefir, these are live organisms, so you've almost got to treat them like pets. So they need to be fed to keep them happy. So we get a lot of comments from, I guess, our customers that our grains are not working. And this is one of the reasons because most of the time it's because people have neglected the grains or left them in the fridge for a while or forgot them in the cupboard for a couple of weeks and they've come back and trying to make them. The grains are not performing as well as they did before, so constant maintenance is very, very important to feed them.

The other thing I want to add about that too is they don't grow very well in non dairy. They don't like spinning. People think they will and sometimes they don't grow at all. So you've always got to give them. And on my website I have recipes for everything that's non dairy. You've got to give them more food because most things like coconut milk has like 3 carbohydrates, so there's nothing for it to make probiotics from. So I always recommend giving it something like date paste or just a little bit. But even at that, they don't grow in non dairy like they do regular milk, if at all. It's. They're very picky and they really. And if you've kept them in the fridge for a few days, it's going to take them a day or two to get back up to snuff. If you kept them in the fridge for a week, they don't like it. It makes them sluggish and tired and it could take. It takes like a couple days for them to come back. So that's. And that's the big reason they slow down producing is because either the cold or, you know, and it depends on how much milk you're keeping them in the fridge. You got to make sure you give them a lot because they're hogs about the milk. So. But the other thing is that non dairy doesn't grow as well.

And just a lot of advice that you gave as well, Donna, about just a little bit agitation or the little tapping or shaking of the jar. And that goes a long way just to distribute the food and get organisms moving so they're not stagnant. So that's a great advice as well, distribute the milk.

Because sometimes what happens is that the bigger kefir grains, Let me tell you about this too, because people don't know about the bigger kefir grains are the big hogs and the little baby ones are the new ones. So they're the strongest ones in the jar. But the big ones will try to take the food from the little ones because bacteria works in, you know, it's like a little ecosystem. It's kind of got its little. We're the big guys, we get more, you know, saying that thing going on. So if you don't redistribute the milk, the baby ones don't get as much. So that's why they stay little. And so the big ones get most of the milk because once they get it clung on to all the different parts of their kefir grain or whatever, you know, their organism is, it clings to them. That's the other thing. Don't rinse your kefir grains in water because it rinses off that bacteria and damages them. That's the other thing people do. Somebody told them to do that. I don't know who it was, but it's, it's, you shouldn't rinse milk kefir grains. It can destroy and actually can kill them. And I've seen that so many times. But it's because those bacterias and you start clinging to them. So basically it's like rinsing off all their protection. It's like you and I going out naked in a snowstorm. Do you know what I'm saying? So that keeps them strong and keeps them really healthy.

Absolutely. We're actually coming up to time. But if it's okay with you if you can stick along a little longer and we can tackle a couple more questions. I know your time is precious and I really appreciate that, Donna. So a lot of people ask this question. You're going to go away on holidays somewhere. My milk kef here, I don't have the ability to look after them. What's your strategies and recommendations to keep them going while people are not able to ferment?

Okay, so here's a couple things that I have learned. So let's say you make kefir grains and you put them in 4 cups of milk every day to make kefir, right? That's how many grains you have. Depending how many grains you have, usually about 2 to 4 tablespoons of grains to 4 cups of milk. Well, if you want them to last a week and you're going to be gone a week, you put them in those four cups of milk and you put it in the fridge. And I would give them an extra cup just for extra insurance. If you're going to be gone two weeks, then you need to double that milk. Okay, so that's going to. But they don't really like it. Now, in times where you're going to be gone for a really long time, they can be frozen in milk. Like it a lot, but they come out of it and they still do fine as long as you don't do it a lot. If you do it once or twice a year, they're okay. But you can't freeze and thaw and freeze and thaw and freeze and thaw a lot because then it starts to destroy them. But the freezing doesn't kill them, but it does put them into a pretty dormant state. And so you can do that. And I have, I have a way to do. I have the instructions on how to do that on, on my website. But it takes them two or three days to come back and start really making kefir. Well, takes them well because they've been basically asleep. So it's kind of like freezing us. Do you know? It's like bio freezing. It's a little bit, but it does work. Just don't do it a lot and do that as only if you absolutely have to. So. But it does work. But for the most part you need to put them in a lot of milk in your refrigerator. If you're going to be gone for like two weeks, double the milk one week. Just use what you regularly do with a little bit more. And I have all those instructions too, like in my books and on My website.

Wonderful. We'll link to that particular link on the show Notes so people can follow up a bit further. James, is there anything you want to ask? Yeah, sure, Donna, thanks for sharing so much. This has been very, very insightful for me. I was just wondering about kind of when you first started with your journey with Kefir and all these fermented food products. How did that impact your, I guess, mind, your mental state and how you felt? How did it change that?

Well, that was a really big thing for me because I was pretty discouraged and I didn't feel well at all. I didn't feel, like I said, I felt this wellness I had never known. I don't think I ever felt that good ever, my entire life, the way that I did after I had Kefir, because I think my gut flora was off. And I didn't know that. And there is nothing. I mean, there could. I've done a lot of podcasts on this and articles on how, you know, your gut is your second brain. And there's, you know, that vagus nerve that goes from the base of your gut all the way up to your brain, and it all connects. And those neurotransmitters that are in your gut as well as your brain are connecting to each other. And depending on the flora that you have in your gut, it's going to determine how you feel. And I have seen this firsthand myself many, many times. I was at a. I had to did a class last year and I had a woman in the front row and she was just bawling her eyes out. And, you know, I wasn't doing anything that was, you know, you know, chopping vegetables shouldn't make you cry about, you know, Kefir. I was talking to the people in the class and sharing stories, and she said that she was on seven different antidepressants and Kiefer helped her get off and got her off. And she said she sat in that front of the class and she was so grateful, she couldn't stop crying because it changed her life so dramatically. And she said she was just glad to be there. She was glad to be able to connect with some, you know, this food product that had made her well, but also to tell me her story. And of course, I cried with her when she was telling me this, but I have seen this many, many times over. And I've done a lot of work on it, too, because personally, here's what happened. I went from real depression to great joy. And, guys, I have never felt such joy in my Life. I didn't know what to do with myself. I felt like a newborn. Like I just got started. I mean, I was, I did. I felt like I was 22. I was so happy. I just was like. I mean, I can remember, I can remember going to the grocery store and people would sack my groceries and I want to hug them. And I thought, I gotta control myself because I felt such gratitude. You know, my husband got more handsome and he really didn't change. Everything got better, you know. And I remember people would hold the door for me and I think that was the greatest thing in the world. And they'd done it before. But that sense of well being and joy was like spilling out of me, do you know what I mean? Because all that resistance I had was gone. You know what I mean? That sickness and disease. And I felt like the chains had fallen off of me and I could control the things in my life. I wasn't scared. I wasn't scared of the flu anymore. I wasn't afraid. I knew how to keep my body well and that I also had this sense of well being that I could do anything, which, you know, I tell people in class, I'm sorry. Once you feel better, if you start a website, start writing books, it is not my fault that you feel better and now you're busy, okay? Because this is what happens when you feel well, when you feel good, you do good. You. And it was emotional too. I mean, like the birds were singing and I hadn't heard those birds for a long time. And it was. The grass was greener because I felt so good. But that translated into joy and it has continued. Guys, this is the reason I keep doing this. Because when I don't do it, I'm not a happy camper. I was grouchy, I had a short temper. I don't do those things anymore like I used to when I was younger, you know, and I think my blood sugar's to that. I think that once those got stable, you know, you don't have those highs and lows and dips and so. Oh yeah, there's just nothing like it when. And you know, you and I, we're 100 trillion bacteria. So they were putting us for a reason and all around us, you know, and so there's a reason that we're 100 trillion bacteria compared to 10 times the cells in our body. So we're basically just a sack of bacteria walking around. You need to pay attention to it. There's a reason it's here. And when I connected to that not only did it heal my body, heal my mind, and that was a glorious thing for me.

That is such a beautiful story and testimonial to start to wrap things up. And it resonates with me. I struggled as well. My listeners will be aware of this. That I struggled deeply with anxiety and depression for many, many years, which almost resulted in me taking my life. And I can certainly resonate with what you're saying, that kefir really makes you feel a lot better.

It means to feel good in Turkish. Did you know the words K E F I R means that in Turkish? To feel good. And that's exactly what it does. Yes. I can't say enough about it. It's my best friend in all the world.

Me, too.

It was my angel that came to change my whole life. I wouldn't. I wouldn't know, you guys, if I wasn't. If I hadn't had it, I wouldn't have the joy of doing this or talking to 10,000 people on a Facebook page and trying to. I wouldn't do that. I'm so glad I got sick, and it was such a horrible time for me, and I'm so glad that I've struggled with anxiety and depression and all that, and I'm glad I did, because now it's like a rubber band that springs the opposite way. I know the joy, and I know that I was meant to help people, just like you are. We're meant to help one another. We all have special gifts. I'm not special. I just found my way. And that's what everybody's doing. They're fighting their way. And it doesn't matter if it's little or big or whatever it is, once you find your way, you'll help somebody else. It's just a natural side effect of feeling good and hope that we could do that for somebody.

Totally. And the final question that I like to ask my guests on our podcast is if someone could do one thing to improve their gut health, what would it be? Donna?

Kefir. That would be the thing it was what changed everything. It has the most probiotics, and it's the most versatile. You can use the whey to make cultured vegetables, you can use strain off the whey, and we can make kefir cheese to make cultured vegetables. You can strain off the whey and make kefir soda, which, by the way, is delicious. You can use, you know, you can make cheese, you can make smoothies, you can make dips, you can make. There's just a million things that it has the most probiotics, it's the easiest to make, and it is the most life changing thing I have seen. I mean, wonderful things. And I have seen some pretty miraculous stuff, but of all of them combined, Kiefer does the most wonderful.

Donna, keep doing what you're doing. Keep doing good in the world. Our sincere appreciation and gratitude for you coming onto the podcast. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. It means the world to me to share with other people. So you keep doing it, too. It's awesome. So we're all in this together, so it's a blessing to be with you. So thank you for inviting me.

Thank you, Donna.