Unlocking the Power of Omega 3 & Branched Fats : A Conversation with Professor Tom Brenna

This episode is brought to you by Nourish Me Organics, your gut health superstore. Nourish Me Organics is the premier online store for all things gut health, including probiotics, prebiotics, natural health supplements and home fermentation kits. So head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code happygut for 10% off. In this episod we chat with Professor Tom Brenner on omega 3 fatty acids and the emerging science around branched fats for optimal health.

Hey guys. Cribbin Govender from the Gut Health Gurus podcast. I've got a background in food science and today I have a very, very interesting conversation lined up for you. We've got Professor Tom Brenner. Tom, welcome to the show.

Oh, thanks very much, Cribbin. I'm glad to be with you.

My absolute pleasure, Tom. And what I like to do at the start of each of my podcasts is ask a very open question. Who is Professor Tom Brenner?

Oh boy. Well, let's see. I am a professor at the University of Texas at Austin and a professor emeritus at Cornel University in New York. I have been working in the area of nutrition and fats and chemistry and food chemistry since roughly 1980 or so. So I've been watching the development of the nutrition in these various areas for quite a long time.

Awesome. What a great introduction to the background of Professor Tom Brenner. And Tom, today the conversation is going to center around fats and there's a couple of key types of fat that I'd like to explore with you just to set it up for the audience. The first fat we're going to explore is Omega 3. And then the second fat is going to be something that's really quite new to me and I'm sure with the audience as well is going to be your branched fats, which really, it's completely, completely new. So how about we start off with the well known omega 3 fatty acids and then we'll slowly transition to the branch fats which is going to be the star of this show.

The omega 3 fats have been around for a long time and are one of the most studied substances in all of biology. There are over 40,000 scientific papers on omega 3 fats. They were first described in the 1950s, long before my time. And it became clear in the 60s and 70s that they were related to neurological health just because of their distribution. They're in the brain, they're in the retina. It was shown that the eye doesn't Work very well when deprived of omega 3s. And then there was a remarkable event in the 70s when two researchers went to Greenland and northern Canada and realized that there were low rates of cardiovascular disease in the natives there. They also realized that their intake of omega 3s through fish and marine mammals was extraordinarily high. And that caused just an explosion in. In interest in the Omega 3s through the 80s and 90s. Took till the 90s when people began to think about the neurological properties again, and there was another explosion of interest in that area. And that carries us, well, more or less to the present. When we think about omega 3s for cardiovascular, for brain health, I think of them more as brain health because that's more my general interests, my research interests. The omega 3 fats are named for a feature of their chemical structure, and listeners may have heard of omega 6 fats as well. They are sort of the other side, the yin yang. The yin to the omega 3 yang, you could say. And they both have much of metabolism in common, but they do different things. You could almost say, and I like to say these days, Omega 6 for body and Omega 3 for brain. That's a gross oversimplification. But in the food world, that's about right. So that's a lot of years of work put into a very short description.

Great. That's a great introduction to a little bit of the history of the Omega 3s. So how about we go into a bit more detail in terms of these omega 3 types of fats? So you highlighted that they are very important for the brain. There's also good research on cardiovascular health as well. And now we're starting to see a lot of supplementation over the last few years, like baby formulas. Even when I was back in industry, we were looking at putting Omega 3s into jellies. So the biggest challenge for that was trying to get the jelly to taste nice without being too fishy. So we're seeing a lot of this supplementation going to the food. So my question for you, Tom, is what's the best way to get these fats into our diet? Is it better to get it from a supplement form or is it better to get it from a food form?

Well, when you talk to nutritional scientists, they'll always tell you it's better to get a food form. The supplements are certainly a suitable substitute for folks that either can't or don't care to consume seafood, which is the bulk of the foods that have omega 3s. And we are particularly talking about omega 3s that are what are also called the long chain ones. So EPA and DHA are the abbreviations they go under. And it's dha, which is extremely high in neurological tissue, the brain and the retina. It's EPA that has most documented effects on cardiovascular. DHA is there too. EPA is also now coming into its own as being a. An agent that reduces depressive symptoms, that is depression. It's used in depression. It's an interesting scientific question about epa because the brain is extremely low in epa. We know that EPA gets into the brain, it goes roaring into the brain and then the brain chews it up and does something with. Looks like it uses it for. As just a simple carbon source or as, as for energy. It's not clear that it makes even very much DHA out of it. But the data on the human studies have just been quite consistent that the EPA rich oils seem to be important for reducing depressive symptoms. The EPA and DHA side are both in that category. I have to tell you that it was in the 90s that the supplementation of infant formulas came into its own. It was by 2001 that the United States approved it. I was involved a little bit in that story back then. I wish we didn't apply the word supplementation because it implies that it's somehow optional. While all breast milks around the world have Omega 3 and have DHA. And we don't say that, we don't say that infant formula is supplemented with vitamin C, we just add it because it has to be there. And so. And it's in breast milk. And breast milk we use as a guide. So the story of, of consuming omega 3s in gummies or in supplemented foods. Examples would be cow's milk. Or there's fruit juices, at least in the uk, that are supplemented. I've seen chocolate bars and things of that nature. Those seem like good ideas to me insofar as they don't have adverse effects on practical food matters. Food chemistry matters like shelf life, make things go rancid more, reduce the palatability of otherwise wholesome foods. But those seem like a good idea. The food system evolved over really the years after World War II to scrub the Omega 3s out of the food system. And the reason is because they tend to reduce shelf life under the normal circumstances. And so restoring that to the, to foods is something that many of us have had on our minds for many years.

That's a great point because these proofs, as we call them, very susceptible, as you mentioned, to oxidative rancidity. And reactions as such. So when I think about it, how, how do we say if we do consumer in a, consumer in a supplement form, how do we know that the product has gone off and does that affect the efficacy of these supplement products?

In the US there is testing that's done both voluntarily but by independent testing labs. The US pharmacopoeia is an example that sets standards and generally when supplements are tested they do quite well actually. I do suggest that something like a testing program like the pharmacopoeia would be present on, on the labels in the US For Australia. Don't know, but I imagine there would be something comparable. If you break open a capsule, just sort of say capsules of fish oil, which is the prominent way it's done, and they smell rancid, then that would be a nice sign to bring that back to the store and get your, get your money back. We have a, a very low threshold for the odor of these rancid molecules, which is to say that we can tell when even a little rancidity has, has crept in. And I don't recommend people consume rancid oils. On the other hand, in these foods from established vendors, food manufacturers, they are acutely aware of this issue and I think the last thing they want is to add something to their foods in an unstable form so they will think about encapsulating in one way or another to keep oxygen away and that sort of thing. As a general principle, I think those for the most part are safe. I think you should trust your taste and trust your nose and that'll be a great guide completely.

I'm a huge fan of trusting in our innate abilities to, to sense whether something is off. I mean the odor, the smell receptors are off the charts when it comes to detecting really tiny, tiny parts per billion type molecules that could be a sign that something is not safe to eat. So it's almost like an inbuilt system into the body. So 100% agree with what you're saying there. Professor TOM so just going back to say if it's rancid, I'm assuming now that it has no or very little efficacy in terms of its health benefits?

Well, I would say that it would have health benefits because the rancidity is basically a very small amount of this material that is, that is now damaged and is no longer efficacious, whereas much of it still is. But you're again, trust your nose. It, it, it's, it's not worth finishing up a bottle if it's been sitting in the Cupboard for, for a year after being opened. You know, go get some, get some fresh stuff. Fresh is good, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. And one final closing question on this Omega 3 before we just jump quickly into some food sources. What is the dose levels for all these different health benefits? So whether it's depression, brain health, cardiovascular health, I'm not sure whether you've seen any data. Erectile dysfunction, things like that.

Yeah. So the estimates vary widely based on, well, who you ask and at the moment you're asking me. So I will give you, I'll give you some ranges. At the lower end I think you want to be looking at hundreds of, of milligrams. So something on the order of 500 milligrams per day seems like a reasonable dose. If you're going to, going to supplement, for example, A piece of decent salmon has a lot more than that actually. And so these are not pharmacological amounts. For cardiovascular. The American Heart association recommends something like a gram per day for primary prevention and primary means for folks that have not had any heart related symptoms. For those who have had a heart attack or some other cardiovascular symptoms, the doses recommended by American Heart are association are more like 2 to 3 grams a day. And then finally on that sort of high end, the prescription Omega 3s that are highly purified, so you could say pharmaceutical grade as they're often called, will be about 4 grams a day of omega 3. Now all those numbers that I've just thrown out. Nice. Started at a low end of about 500 milligrams and went to a high end of about 4,000 milligrams. Even all that said, the safety factor is still much higher than that. People have not found really a toxic level. If you consider very highly purified Omega 3, I think that sometimes you will see high levels that might have been oxidized and then there you might have a problem. But I'm really only saying that these are really very, very safe. And these would all be numbers for adults, numbers for things like depression. One would be looking at an EPA dominant. You typically will look on the labels it'll say EPA and dha. EPA would dominate, DHA would be less. And that's what you would be looking for for depression. Perhaps postpartum after the baby is born. Keep mom's mind in happy thoughts. You'd want an EPA rich supplement and they're something like a gram a day or more. Something like a gram a day sounds about right to me. And I think the data mostly support numbers like that. You could however consume, let me think 1 to 200 grams of salmon and get about the same depending on where you get the salmon. But. And, and you can make recommendations on various fish from Australia, barramundi and things like that. And I don't off the top of my head, I apologize, have those numbers for Australian fish. But there will be species there that are comparable.

Yeah, it's typically going to be the oily type fish. Things like salmon, as you mentioned. Sardines is another big one. Mackerel, it's another good one.

Yeah. The usual suspects. Thank you for. Thank you for that. The usual suspects. And if you get it out of fish, you're getting a nutrient package which is broader than the Omega 3s. You're getting lots of minerals. There's a bit of choline. Choline is getting to. To seem like there's sort of emerging data that indicate that choline may help out in utilization of omega 3s. We will see if all that stands up. But I kind of like the data as it stands right now. So having sources like that, that would even imply eggs. We have in the States, Omega 3 eggs. When my. When my colleagues asked me about what they should transition their weaner grandchildren on to, you know, what sort of do we want to feed them fish? Well, I. My kids feed their kids fish even from before they're one year old. But if you're not quite that daring, Omega 3 eggs sound like a great idea to me.

Great. Had no idea about the. The whole choline connection to omega 3. And I'll certainly be looking for omega 3 eggs when I'm in the store next time. And how about if. If we get it from like a canned fish source, is there any limitations or is that perfectly fine?

If you're asking me about the difference between a canned fish and a fresh fish, yes. I eat canned fish all the time to be. So I don't think there's much of a difference there. And it can be much more economical also to consume canned fish. I've just been on at home a bit of a trend. I will buy a whole bunch of a can that I like and let's say a particular brand or a particular style and let that run its course. So I think that's a terrific way to get it.

Awesome. I think we covered a lot of data there when it comes to omega 3s and there's plenty of actionable information to allow people to hopefully incorporate more omega 3s into their diet. It's a huge part of the Mediterranean diet, which is hugely popular in the Nutrition spaces. So we've got some indications on dose levels to help people, supplementation ideas. So how about we move on to the star of the show, which is, which I know almost nothing about, which is branch fats. So firstly, what is a branch fat? And my understanding is that you're one of the thought leaders when it comes to branch fats. So what is it and how did you actually discover it?

Well, I'm glad we had a chance to have a chat about omega 3s and omega sixes and sort of things that are more conventional or better known, let's put it that way. I go back to the, to the chemistry idea. So fats have a certain chemical structure and I alluded to the Omega 3, Omega 6 being a certain feature of those chemical structures. One of the features of almost all, not almost all, all of the fatty acids that we know the names of that are commonly known. Omega 3 fats, omega 6 fats, saturated fats, monounsaturated fats. One of the features of all those fatty acids that comprise those is that they are straight linear chains of carbon atoms. So they just go one to the next to the next in a linear chain. Branch fats have what chemists call a methyl branch at a certain position and a couple of positions. These fats tend to be made by microorganisms. They are made in a number of different places that are relevant to humans. Possibly the most relevant one generally is that they're made by the organisms in the rumen of the cow. So cows, cow's milk turns out to be quite rich in branched chain fatty acids. The scientific name is branch chain fatty acids. Well, we like to call them branch fat for simplicity. And there are other sources that are as well. So. So the answer to the first question is that they have a special unique structure that distinguishes them from other fats. And that's why we call it, we call them branched. The second was where did we, how did we get into this? And we've been researching these molecules as nutritional agents for more than 15 years now. We got into it in what I think is the kind of serendipitous way that many people notice that a certain sample that they're analyzing, and when we analyze samples in the laboratory, do a lot of that sort of thing for a lot of years now we separate all the component fatty acids within a fat and, and we expect to see certain patterns. Many of us will analyze a sample and we will find strange fats that we don't expect. And we track them down and we find out that they're branched fats. And often that's it. People will analyze it, they'll write a paper, and then they'll move on to something else. Well, we got interested, a little more interested and continued to work on them more. We originally discovered them for ourselves. We didn't discover branch fat, but we discovered them for ourselves the same way you go to a market and you discover a nice peach or something. So we discovered it in analysis of a unique human substance known as vernix cassiosa. Vernix is a white, waxy substance which is observed on the skin of human infants, particularly those that are born a couple of weeks premature. This material begins to accumulate at roughly the beginning of the third trimester, call it around week 27. Can put a band around that. But let's say around week 27. Now what happens is this surface, the skin surface, develops this white coating, and it develops quite a thick coating. And as it develops, it will slough off as particles. It will come off as particles of, we'll call it just Vernix now into the amniotic fluid, and actually towards the end of gestation, it actually makes the amniotic fluid cloudy. And it's because of these particles. Now, if you think about it, it's long been known that the human fetus gulps amniotic fluid. So it does almost everything, at least as practice in utero as it will after it's born. It breathes, so to speak, it moves and kicks, and moms know that. But it also swallows and it processes liquid through the kidneys right back into the amniotic fluid and cycles it. But what it's also gulping, as these particles are in amniotic fluid, is solid particles. It's gulping the particles as well. And for this reason, virnix particles, Vernix itself has been called the first solid meal of humans.

Wow.

And so we went and analyzed Vernix that was just gently removed from the, let's say the skin, sort of the shoulder or some surface of newborns. And we were actually looking for some omega 3 fatty acids. We didn't find them, but we did find loads of branched fat. Now, the amount of branch fat we found was richer than any place that that is really in human biology. On the surface, 30% of the fat in this material called vernix is branch fat. And Vernix itself is about half fat. So it's a very, very lippity material, very fatty material. So we got the bright idea to collect Vernix from newborns at Our local hospital. And we thought, right, if they are swallowing this material and have been for the last few weeks, then we might see these branch fats in the first pass, the first poop of the baby called meconium. Now this material collects in the rectum of the bay of the fetus. And under normal circumstances it collects for all of gestation. And then after birth, the baby passes this very black material. Well, when we analyze the black material, when he analyzes meconium, we found some of the very same branch fats as we found on the Vernix, which was on the surface of the baby. So you put these two things together, the baby is gulping these things, it's essentially consuming, and then some of them make it all the way to the end. So you think, well, this is a nutritional thing and much of it is disappearing. We could do a calculation that must have. It was disappearing probably through absorption between swallowing and then making it to the end. So that's what gave us the first clue that there was a nutritional connection. Vernix has always discussed in terms of being a, being important for the skin, protecting the skin. But for most kids, it's not a continuous film. And particularly babies that are born at what we call full term gestation, let's say nine months or even a week or two late, they have very little Vernix on their skin. The peak is a few weeks earlier. So I sort of think that it's more of a nutritional thing than it is a skin thing. That is absolute speculation on my part. So. But it's still, some of that makes sense to us. Now I'll add one thing more before I get to the next, before we get to another perhaps question, which is that we Long, long story. But make a story long story short, Vernix was the. Excuse me. Humans are the only animals known to have Furnix. So chimpanzees, baboons, pigs, rodents, none of these animals have. No animal has Vernix. Humans were unique because of some reasoning that we actually learned from Sir David Attenborough in one of his Nature programs. We chased down a lead and managed to show that California sea lions also have pharynx. And there's a long story about a connection between human evolution and a sharp shore based or phase or a kind of marine phase. Not to say that we were seals at any point, but that there maybe were some components in common. So that's why we chase it down. And in fact, later on, Sir David attenborough did a BBC Radio 4 story that told much of that Wernicke story in the context of evolution. So at any rate, Vernix for humans still are the only terrestrial animals, the only animals that live on the land that have Vernix.

Great. That's a great summary of Vernix. Some mind blowing information there, some stuff that I had no idea about, of course. So you mentioned that Vernix you suspect is involved in some sort of nutritional aspect for a young developing baby. What's the hypothesis in terms of the health benefits that it's exerting onto the baby's health?

Right, thanks for asking it that way. We think that the connection is probably related to microbiota on the one hand, but we also in subsequent studies, and we've probably published 15 papers in the last 15 years looking at various biological aspects of this. And we think also that branch fats probably have a role to play in the health of what we call the enterocytes. These are the cells that are lining the small intestine. And we know that they are taken up at very high levels. If they're around the cells, take them up and incorporate them into their membranes. We have published data showing that the cells are more robust to an inflammatory insult. That is their reaction to that inflammatory insult is a bit blunted. It doesn't run away. We don't have runaway inflammation when the cells have access to branch fat as opposed to exclusively straight chain fat. We think it's two sides to it. One is the baby, which would be the cells, which seem to be more robust when they have a source of branch fats. But also on the microbiota. We did some work a while back showing that when we include branch fats in the feeds in an experimental model, now these are rats, but we have an experimental model of intestinal disease actually, and without getting into detail on that, it simply is one component is a runaway bad bacteria, let's say. So the microbiota more or less goes bad and goes haywire and giving branch fat reduced substantially the probability that that disease would hit. And it also altered the distribution of microorganisms in the microbiota. How did it do that? Well, it turns out that the microbiologists have been keeping a bit of a secret from us all these years. It turns out that many microorganisms use these branched fats in their in their cell membranes, that is the barrier between the cell and the outside world. And they make them themselves. And some of these organisms make very large amounts. In fact, there are organisms that would have 95% of all their fats in their membranes as branch fat. You can imagine that organisms that rely upon these branch fats would also grow faster if they could get them from the environment rather than making them from, let's say, sugar somehow. And so we saw something just like that. And then there's some other intriguing evidence that we did not develop, but has been around for a while. It's just been sitting there in the literature which indicates that at least one pathogen, and I won't say what it is because I don't want people to go out and try to treat with this until we do some studies. But at least one pathogen, when provided with branch fat, becomes non pathogenic, or at least it seems to by in a cell culture, which is the way microbiologists study individual organisms. And it goes from being a nasty pathogen to just not being a pathogen at all. Or so it seems. And so we think also that branched fats not only change the distribution of organisms in the microbiota, but they change the biology of those microorganisms. And perhaps there is a deficiency when we don't have branch fats in the feeds of little kids.

That's really exciting and fascinating emerging research and I'm sure that once the data becomes available, we'll be able to get access to what this very specific pathogen that you're talking about. Tom, is alluding to a couple of follow up questions. So it seems like what you're saying is that this material, these branch fats, shape the microbiota, the microbiome in some way. So is there any specific strains or species? I'm not sure how you want to explain it. Maybe species is probably a good way to define it, but is there any data to suggest that it boosts certain species and suppresses other species or whatever level you want to talk to that?

Yeah, yeah. And so thanks for that. There is evidence, a bit of evidence, showing that bacillus, the bacillus genus in general is boosted in the presence of branch fats and bacillus in general relies upon branch fats. It has many organ, many of the individual species, and you probably have to get down to the strain level to really say very specific things about what any of these microorganisms are doing in particular. But as a generic thing, these Bacillus, that genus and the associated species are reliant on branch fats and they increase in their abundance. When we feed, we feed branch fats. At least in the model system that we have used thus far. There are other organisms as well. That's not the only one that's the one that comes to mind. And some of these Bacillus species have been used in premature babies as what we would call probiotics. And so they are safe enough to be approved, to be given to really the sickest little kids, at least on an experimental basis. The degree to which all that's worked out still requires more, more research. But the point is that these are, these are what we call commensal bacteria. I like to call them friendly bacteria. I can, I can put on my technical hat, but, but I, I, it's much easier to say we, we have friends and we have enemies and these are, these are our friends.

So a lot of the, the bacillus I think people might be familiar with, with spore based type probiotics, a lot of them are bacillus. A lot of fermented foods, people add something like Bacillus coagulans into it as a, as a prebiotic, as a probiotic. Is there any of the species that are suppressed by this particular branch fat?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific species that we saw that was specifically suppressed. Of course, if one set of species goes up, then everything else is going down. So that's not exactly the level of specificity you're looking for. But I can't say that there are any particular bad guys, for instance, that are being suppressed. But as I said, we may be coaxing some of the pathogens into not being pathogens. I mean, I would tell the story that, that some of these pathogens may just be angry because they're, they're looking around for branch fat and they, they just are. I don't know, we, we hangry would be the one of the words we use here. And, and you give them that and they turn into couch potatoes and they don't bother anyone after that. So that's a little bit anthropomorphic, I suppose, but, but that's the way I think about it. And we'll see again whether some of that stuff, when really tested, ends up getting into the peer reviewed literature. But I think there is plenty of peer reviewed stuff that points right in that direction.

Now that's really interesting. If I could summarize if the microbiota are in a dysbiotic state, potentially that boosting certain types of these commensal beneficial type organisms like Bacillus could, could be almost overcrowding some of the pathogenic organisms. So that's one side of the story and then the other emerging science, which is yet to be fully explored. But it's starting that the pathogenicity of some of these well known pathogens might be interrupted to a certain degree. So they become as you mentioned, couch potatoes rather than the lions that are causing destruction and damage.

Yeah, you got that right. I think that's the idea. And we have this sense that if we optimize our commensal bacteria that'll take care of, take care of matters down there. And that seems to be the direction this is all pointing.

Sure. The next follow up question is. So I understand that your team have developed almost like a product called a peribiotic. So firstly I just wanted to clarify, is a peribiotic similar to something like a prebiotic? Is there connections between that?

Yeah, we thought about it in a number of different ways and we wanted to say that, or we wanted to communicate in this term that there it has prebiotic properties and probiotic properties. But also we wanted to communicate that it again in a simple way to remember helps bugs and baby. That is to say that the microbiota is advantaged, the commensal organism are advantaged, but also the cells of the baby are improved, are made more robust as I was alluding to earlier, with these branched fats available in the lower gut.

So it's amazing, you guys have actually based on this amazing cutting edge research that you've put together a supplement if you like, that people could use. So it's called, it's called Vernix, isn't it? Just like you were explaining with the Bailey's Vernix.

Yeah, our little name for our little company is Vernix. Yes, that's correct. And it produces, our product is available now and it's made in Australia, it has a Bacillus species and at a particular proprietary strain of Bacillus subtilis, which is one of the organisms that was shown to be increased in the lower gut of animals fed branch fats and these organisms. This, this. Well I'll, I'll might as well say it. There's a, a sachet that can be of a powder that can be mixed into a drink or a yogurt or something like that in the morning and consumed. They, they taste, they don't have much taste, but certainly not a bad taste. Whatever they have and, and they really serve to populate the gut and with a strain of microorganism that makes branch fat.

So just so I can completely understand, so the Vernix daily per biotic supplement has got a Bacillus subsilis type organism in there. So is it a live organism or Is it a, some sort of almost like an extract or.

It's. No, it, it's a, it's a spore. So it'll, it'll activate, It'll activate when it gets to the lower gut so that it's more like a, it's more like a, a probiotic. But it's the, the intention is more than simply a, an organism. The mechanism of action will also be the branch fats as that organism grows and develops and then releases its branch fats, which we expect it to do.

Oh, wow. So it's a spore based organism that's just to give people an indication of what a spore is. It's almost like a dormant state of a, of a bacteria. Almost like a seed, if you like. So as this organism transits through the very harsh gastrointestinal environment, the acids, the, the digestive enzymes, the bile acids, all that kind of stuff, it makes its way down into the lower part of the colon and then starts to convert from a spore based seed state to a vegetative like live organism. Is that a good summation?

That's a good summation, yes. That sounds pretty good to me. Yep.

Cool. So, and then my understanding of what you're saying is that then these organisms start to grow in the gut, but then the benefits of this organism don't necessarily lie with the, with the live organism, but potentially when these organisms start to die, then you've got these branched fats that are starting to be released into the colon, which is then exerting all these wonderful benefits that you spoke about.

Yeah, and that's so that those branch fats will be available to the rest of the microbiota to improve matters throughout the whole, let's say microbiota and call it an ecosystem. That's really what a microbiota is. It's an ecosystem. Microecoustem. Okay. How many words do we use? But you get the idea. So it's not just one organism, it's an organism that's catalyzing and making life easier for the good guys down there. Cool.

That's amazing. It sounds fascinating. So just to quickly summarize, so it's perfectly fine for babies, for people of all ages.

We have said that it's tested for over age 5. We haven't gone to babies yet, so we would want to tell people to do that. That being said, there are places in the world that consume probably other strains of this microorganism at very young ages. But we had to start somewhere. So where we started was in at least in. We'll call it older kits, but not so old 5 and above. And that's where we had to start. So that's where we recommend.

Cool. And is there any dose specificity for these branch fats to exert benefits?

That's a great question. As folks begin to use it, I think we will answer that question much better. We have looked at higher doses than just informally, I should say we've looked at higher doses than are in our mixture. And you see. Sorry. In the sachets. And you see more. More of a reaction. This is. This is people. People reporting this. Right. So just saying. Yes, I. If I take much more than I feel. Something more. Of course, there's no barrier to taking more if you like to take more. So we want to start people off at a certain point and then also to remember that. Boy, nowhere then in gut health did you say that everybody is different. And I mean, we all know. And you think about how you were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you're different from where you were then. So that's all tied into your question about dosing. So we've provided what we think is a good starting point and people could use more or less as it seems to be effective.

Great. And do these organisms, this bacillus subsequent strain, do they colonize the gas or are they transient in nature?

Well, they should colonize the gut. This particular strain is not some kind of a crazy unusual strain. We simply selected it out of for many natural strains. So it's a natural strain. There's no funny genetic modification or anything like that. It's a natural strain. They will colonize the. The gut. We think it will work better, particularly for folks who are looking to improve their gut health to use it daily. And that's why we put the word daily in the title. We'll see how it helps people. That's what we're doing. That of course, we'll see with time. But we think daily is probably right.

That's wonderful. Awesome. And is it suitable? A couple of closing questions here. Is it suitable for vegans and vegetarians?

Yes, it is. There's no. There's no. I don't think there are any animal products in the production, though. Certainly it's not an animal product itself. I think that's accurate. Yes.

And this is a little bit of a tricky question, but are you aware of any common gut dysfunction? So examples being ibs, ibd, sibo, what's another good one? Any sort of digestive Crohn's disease. Things like that. Is there anything, any of these dysfunctions that you can think about could be something completely different to the ones we spoke about, that this product may exert some sort of benefit?

Well, it's a wonderful word you put in there, may, which is to say I can say that it may be good for any of those. It's another one of these gut questions where it depends on the individual. We have had reports of folks taking these, taking our daily peribiotics and, and having these sort of life changing reactions where they really say, you know, I, I couldn't function and now I can. And, and, and they go on the record with their names and tell us all about it. And you know, we have to continue to see how that, how that plays out. But there's been enough of that to indicate to us that there will be conditions where we really, where this product really, really helps. This is a first product of its kind for us and we started somewhere. We may well be, as we continue with this, expand and try to understand how it helps people, whether we should be doing different doses, whether we start looking at other strains, whether we start looking at other aspects of delivering branch fats, we're thinking about that into the future. But right now we think that it may well have a important effect on any of those conditions. And as I said, we get reports of folks saying that nothing helped, but this does. So of course, that's all of course, very gratifying as well.

Completely. I just want to say what an amazing discovery and it's so exciting to watch the research emerge and then transition now into actually seeing real world benefits and customers actually coming back to you and just telling them, telling you that essentially you've changed their life and gut dysfunctions can be hugely debilitating and really tricky for people to manage. So I'm so excited about your product. And just one more thing. So in terms of the, a lot of these type of probiotics, prebiotics, some people can exhibit some sort of reaction at the start. Something that's common is something like a Herxheimer reaction. Is that something that you guys have observed when people first start taking your products?

I haven't seen that kind of a report. Relatively. Very few customers write and say, this really was not for me, I want my money back. Of course, if they do, we'll give them the money back. But very, very few have asked for that and reactions like that have not been reported. And that's the reason I mentioned the money back part, that very few have because possibly they've had something and just haven't told us. So I don't think that that's been much of an issue thus far. Cool.

Good today and I think we'll start to wrap now. I think that was quite a comprehensive discussion. We covered the Omega 3s. We covered this very exciting research around the branch fats. One thing I forgot to ask you about Omega 3s just to make sure we've covered this for the audience. Is there any gut health benefits that you've observed from the literature in terms of omega 3 consumption?

Well, omega 3 is connected to lower levels of inflammation, so any kind of inflammatory stuff usually is improved by to one degree or another. Though if it improved all inflammatory gut problems, then if it cured them, then we wouldn't have any more. So certainly it's not doing that. The. There's a feeling out there that there is some effect perhaps on prevention of colon cancer. There's some data out there along those lines. The studies are rather complicated in one respect, which is that omega 3s, like other fats, like most fats, are mostly absorbed before they get to the lower gut. And so as a result, they may well be exerting their effects not through the actual gut from the lumen or the center of the gut, but it may be through the bloodstream and then having an effect on the cells from the other side. And so those are some complications in trying to think through what really is going on there. So I already told you, you ought to take Omega 3s for your brain. And the nice thing about nutrients, the nice thing about nutrients is that they're not just targeted for one thing. If you take them for your brain, you take them for your heart. They help everything. I used to say that I don't care why people are taking them. They can take it to grow hair for all I care. It'll improve everything and really probably correct what is really a small deficiency, at least maybe not so small, but some kind of a deficiency condition. So you get the benefits everywhere.

Awesome. Tom, I'm very conscious of your time. I thank you so much for coming onto the show. And what I'd like to do at the close of all my shows is to firstly give you the opportunity. I'm sure people are going to love this episode. How can they find you if they want to reach out to you is their social media handles is their websites. How can people get a hold of you?

Oh, we're on Vernix V E R N X dot com. Actually, do you mind? Give me, give me a second here. I'm actually going to look. I'm, I'm almost embarrassed that I got onto the show and I didn't have a ready answer to that question. Shows you what a great businessman I am.

Typical scientists.

I like to think that's true. Yes. Ah, we are Vernt V E R N X dot com.

Cool. Awesome. And so people can reach out to you there and find out more information about these products.

Please do. Please do. If you have any questions, please, please reach out. We've, we'll, we'll get, get things answered for you as best we can.

Awesome. And I always ask this question at the end of all my shows. If there's one thing, Professor Tom, that someone can do for their gut health today, what would it be?

Oh, boy, I'm feeling my professor hat going on again. And eat well. Eat well. Probably eat more fish, eat more seafood. And when all those things fail, then start looking to things like what we're talking about today and to mend something that maybe is not as easily mendable with food.

Awesome. Wonderful advice as always. Food is medicine. So great to talk about that and get that feedback from you. And also there's also a place for supplementation implementation when it's warranted. Tom, thank you so much for coming onto the show.

Well, thanks for having me, Kirby. I'm really pleased and best of luck with the podcast.

Cool. Thank you so much.

Okay.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Gut Health Gurus Podcast with Professor Tom Brenner. If you found this podcast podcast valuable, leave us a kind review and five stars on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcasting app. If you want to connect with our host, Cribban Govenda, please follow him on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok gut healthgurus. Also, check out our Gut Health Gurus Facebook group. With 17,000 members ready to help you on your journey to amazing gut health. This episode is sponsored by Nourish Me Organics. Head to www.nourishmeorganics.com and use the code HappyGut for 10% off. Make sure to check out their Omega 3 fish oils, cod liver oil and Vernix Peribiotics. Until next time.