#019: How to Launch a Successful Side Business When You Freelance Full Time

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing.

Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Well, hello everyone. Happy day to you and thanks for joining me for episode 19 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I'm your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. And you can find detailed show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 19, the number 19. So if you're somewhere right now where you can't take notes, don't worry, I really got your back here. These are detailed notes that you can reference later at your convenience. So many freelance writers get to a point where they want to scale their business in some way or they want to diversify their income stream by launching a new side venture or project in. My friend and colleague, Mike Stelzner is a classic example of this. From 1996 until just a few years ago, he was a freelance writer. And today he's the founder of Social Media examiner, an online magazine for business owners and marketers who are trying to figure out the whole social media game. In less than four years, Social Media examiner has attracted, get this, over 220,000 email subscribers and 800,000 website hits a month. I mean, this is really remarkable. Mike's podcast, a social media marketing podcast. It's a podcast that many of you are familiar with, has, as of this recording, more than 21,000 listeners. And as if that weren't enough, Mike recently launched a new website called mykidsadventures.com it's a site for parents who are looking for fun things to do with their kids. And we're going to come back to this later. And in this interview, Mike and I talk about what it takes to launch a successful side business. When you're freelancing full time and you have limited resources, limited bandwidth, I mean, these are all great questions. I found that for most people, this concept just doesn't really go anywhere or doesn't really pay off. And Mike has had tremendous success doing this. I was very curious how he's been able to build what's become a multimillion dollar year empire that started from essentially a basic need that he had over 10 years ago. And he's grown it organically to this point. So let's get right to the interview. I think you're really going to enjoy this talk. Hey, Mike, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you here, Ed.

It's great to talk to you.

It's been a long time. We haven't chatted in a while and I'm just really excited about all the things you got cooking, especially because you came from our world as freelancers. I think your point of view means a lot to me, considering everything that you've created over the last few years. It really is an honor to have you here.

Yeah. From 1996 until 2008. Well, actually 2009, I was, you know. Yeah. Self employed, solo guy. So, yeah, freelancer.

Well, tell me about that. Tell me about. Well, first let's do. Let's kind of take a step back here and tell us. We'll start with now what you're doing today. And then I want to take a step back so people understand where you came from.

Sure. I'm the founder and CEO of Social Media examiner and simply said, it's an online magazine for business owners and marketers that want to figure out this crazy world of social media marketing. And we do, we have a podcast, we do online events, we do physical conference, you know, all that kind of fun stuff. Also just started a brand new thing called my kids adventures.com, which is an online magazine for busy parents that. That are looking for fun stuff to do with their kid but don't have any juice left at the end of the day. So those are the things that I'm doing now. And Social Media examiner has 222,000 people on our email subscription list. And every day they get an email in their inbox from us with new original content. We have about 21,000 people that listen to the podcast. We have 800,000 people a month that visit Social Media Examiner.

That's amazing. In this is something. Social Media examiner, you launched what, 2009?

Yeah, late 2009.

Wow, that's amazing.

And it's four years.

My kids Adventures is. And we're gonna be talking more about that. But when was that launched?

A few weeks ago.

Wow. Okay.

So that's just a baby.

Yeah, well, that, that's. That's right.

The baby that I hope will become a big baby. These people wanted websites designed, so I kind of expanded a little bit from where I was to ultimately adding more services. And one of those services was website design. And you know, as I was growing, I was making new relationships with subcontractors that brought specialty stuff to the table. And we were just servicing the high tech industry, ed. And of course, as you know, business grew, Y2K came around. And the tech industry blew up. So my business kept growing and growing and growing. And then all of a sudden, around 2, late 2001, 2002, the stock market kind of imploded, and all the tech companies stopped spending money because they were out of their budgets. And that's when I was in trouble. And that's when I decided it was time to pivot.

Clarify, Mike. At this point, though, the whole time it was a one man show. You were just bringing in designers to do the design piece.

It was always a one man show. I built it to almost a $500,000 company.

Holy cow. Okay.

Yeah. And it was just a one man show, and it was just lots of subcontractors. I told everybody that I was like a general contractor. You know how when you hire someone to build something for you in the general, and they bring in all the subs that do the windows and the tile work and all that stuff? So that's kind of what I was a general contractor for, marketing related stuff. And I was the brain that brought the talent in. And I would read it and I started producing PowerPoint presentations, brochures, data sheets, and white papers. And, you know, in the beginning, I was doing it for anybody. It didn't matter, you know, And I began to realize as I went along that tech was really where my sweet spot was. And then eventually the web came out. You know, realize this is mid-90s, right? This thing called the World wide Web started growing in popularity. And in the late 90s, people wanted websites designed. So I kind of expanded a little bit from where I was to ultimately adding more services. And one of those services was website design. And, you know, as I was growing, I was making new relationships with subcontractors that brought specialty stuff to the table. And we were just servicing the high tech industry. Ed. And of course, as, you know, business grew, Y2K came around, and the tech industry blew up. So my business kept growing and growing and growing. And then all of a sudden, around 2, late 2001, 2002, the stock market kind of imploded and all the tech companies stopped spending money because they were out of their budgets. That's when I was in trouble, and that's when I decided it was time to pivot.

Clarify, Mike. At this point, though, the whole time it was a one man show. You were just bringing in designers to do the design piece.

It was always a one man show. I built it to almost a $500,000 company.

Holy cow. Okay.

Yeah. And it was just a one man show. And it was just lots of subcontractors. I told everybody that I was like a general contractor. You know how when you hire someone to build something for you in the general and they bring in all the subs that do the windows and the tile work and all that stuff. So that's kind of what I was a general contractor for, marketing related stuff. And I was the brain that brought the talent in and I would recruit the talent for the projects.

Of course, you know, then the economy tanks, especially high tech. So it's. You didn't necessarily have employees to lay off. But still, that was your, that was your business, right? Absolutely. So what do you do? I mean, how did you come out of that?

Well, what ended up happening was I first freaked out. I had a brand new baby girl and I didn't know what I was going to do. I had started writing white papers for some of my clients and I noticed more of them were requesting it. So what I decided to do, I reached out to somebody who published an ad in a magazine, a marketing magazine. I said, hey, does this thing work for you? And she said, no, but you know, there's this really cool new thing called Google Ads. You should check it out. I'm all, what's that all about? She's all, well, you buy keywords and your stuff shows up in the search results. I'm like, what? I've never heard of such a thing. So I decided to write this thing called how to write a white paper. A white paper on white papers. And what I did was I gave away the first couple pages and then I had a little reg form to get the rest. And I used Google pay per click advertising to advertise it. And fast forward, 85,000 people filled out that form over a period of years.

Holy cow. Okay.

And from that form I was able to start a newsletter, a portal. I met you and I built an entire, as you know, industry all around white papers.

Wow. So this wasn't something you planned, right? Were you. This was your intention here?

Was my intention to write it. I thought in my mind, okay, I just need some business. Let's come up with a way to generate leads. And I put my best knowledge into a 10 page white paper because I had written quite a few by then. And I just figured maybe people are searching for how to write a white paper. So that's exactly what I did, was I bought those keywords and gave it away. And at the end of the white paper, I said, how to? I said, are you the right person to write it? And what to look for when hiring a white paper writer. After I gave away a lot of my tips and I got a lot of leads, a lot of leads. And it got so big I couldn't handle it all. And eventually I said, all right, I want to write a book. How do I write a book? I got to build an audience. How do I build an audience? The way that I build an audience is I got to deliver content for them. And what had happened, Ed, is I had first I had to learn Google pay per click ads. So I went out and I bought an ebook from this guy named Andrew Goodman. And I noticed what he was doing. He was publishing these really rich email newsletters every month to his audience, providing tips from just the people that bought his ebook. Well, I said, why don't I do that for the people that register for my white paper? So I asked everybody if they wanted to get on my newsletter list. And I was able to grow that to over 20,000 people. And then what I did was I reached out to people like the guy that wrote the ebook on AdWords. After I got to about 4,000 email subscribers, I said, Hey, I got 4,000 email subscribers. You want to write for me? I didn't even have my newsletter out yet. He said, well, that's pretty healthy. Yeah, sure, I'll write for you. And then I reached out to some of my competitors in the space and I said, look, I'm building this thing. Do you want to be part of it? And one of them was Jonathan Cantor, and the other one was Gordon Graham, and another one was a name that I won't mention. And he decided he didn't want to be part of it and nobody knows him anymore.

Interesting.

So we kind of collaborated. We were coopetition, if you will. And what started was a regular newsletter where these guys were, you know, there was more business than I could handle and I was giving away leads. And then eventually I built a portal called White paper source and we published all that stuff that was in the newsletter on the website. And my plan all along, Ed, was to build an audience so that when I came out with my self published book called Writing white papers, I wouldn't have to rely on someone else.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And along the way I interviewed people and people like you came forward and wrote guest posts for us. And we eventually did teleseminars and, you know, the rest is history. You were a part of that.

Mm. So really the intention was much more modest than this, but this thing blew up into a huge business and I think it still exists today, right?

Whitepapersource.com it does still exist, but it's pretty much non operational. I shut down that business after Social Media examiner totally exploded. And I realized that that was my next thing, my next calling, if you will. But it was great. I was, you know, I was doing great. I had more work than I could ever handle. I was getting paid, I don't know, 20 to $30,000 a month to write white papers. And, you know, and all the extra stuff that I couldn't handle was going off to my friends and there I had a referral network and people like you or, you know, I think you're a part of that. Yeah, I was competitively bidding for those projects and, you know, I just kind of built an industry out of it. I mean, it wasn't ever the plan, it was just, I need business. But then I realized I was onto something hot. And I think I was in the right place at the right time, Ed. You know, white papers were exploding and I helped them explode because I was the evangelist, you know, going out, speaking at conferences, that kind of stuff.

So what, when did, did you begin transitioning away from that and maybe into more of the speaking and, you know, kind of doing some of the other things that, that weren't necessarily just pure writing for clients.

Well, this is the challenge we all face when we're a one man show, which is time versus money, right?

Yep.

I never charged by the hour. I always charge like X thousands of dollars to do a project and it would only take X, you know, three or four a month so I could balance myself. But then corporations like Qualcomm Corporations said, we want to hire you. We're going to pay you $4,500 a month to come in for two years and to train our engineers on how to write white paper. And I use that to put my kids through private school. And I started doing the math on that. It was like, you know, I'm generating 40 or $50,000 a year just given the same presentation. The same four hour presentation once a month.

Yeah.

And I'm like, wow, that's. But then corporations like Qualcomm Corporation said, we want to hire you. We're going to pay you $4,500 a month to come in for two years and to train our engineers on how to write white paper. And I use that to put my kids through private school. And I started doing the math on that. It was like, you know, I'm generating 40 or $50,000 a year just given the same Presentation scalable. I can handle that. I'm selling my time, but my time is so valuable there, and it's easy. And I had it down to a root kind of thing. And then I began to see the power add. Somewhere along the line, I wanted to do a conference and I wanted to get all the guys in the writing world together. Bob Lai was one of them. And Bob said, I don't do physical conferences anymore. So that forced me to be like, oh my gosh, I'm stuck in a corner. What am I going to do? Why don't I try to do a virtual online conference? So I decided to do something called Copywriting Success Summit, which I don't know if you were part of it or not.

I was the second year and I had forgotten about that. You're right. I knew there was something where you transitioned.

It was totally, completely took the world by storm. Nobody had ever heard of anything like this. We had about 300 people that paid to come here live. From all these different people to teaching them how to become copywriters. And then I did it for White Paper. Same four hour presentation once a month.

Yeah.

And I'm like, wow, that's the person. I had a White Paper Success Summit. And when I did this, I began to realize the potential to actually get lots of people together and have them collaborate and then sell high volume, low cost stuff, if you will, you know what I mean? Where people paid a couple hundred bucks to hear, you know, over a period of time from lots of people. That opened my eyes because that was the most money that I'd ever made for the amount of work that I was putting into it. And it was like a win win for everyone. And along the way, social media started propping up and I started asking people to write about it for my newsletter. And my audience started resonating with it because a lot of freelancers and marketers were in my newsletter list and they all were trying to figure out this social media thing. So then I decided to go off on a limb with White Paper Source and actually launch something called Social Media Success Summit. And that was a huge hit. 500, 600 tickets sold. Biggest thing I'd ever done. Holy cow. I'm thinking this is big. And this was in the spring of 2009. And that's when the seed was planted inside my head that this social media thing is about to explode. And now I realized Twitter has only been around since 2007, so it's about two years old. And Facebook had only been public for maybe a year. I think because it had been private, just for college students, so it was just starting to literally explode. But it was already kind of big by then, and it was definitely a crowded market. That was how I got the sign or the signals that maybe I should experiment with something new and just see whether I have eyes to see something that others don't yet, and I can get in. Arguably. It was late. By October of 2009. It had been a good two years since these social networks were really popular, and there was already thousands of bloggers out there talking about social media. I decided to jump in, full boat in October of 2009.

Well, maybe I remember when you made that announcement, and it seemed to be a little late, but I think we were still in that kind of early majority. Maybe we had crossed that chasm. Right. And it was still early enough, and you moved on it really, really quickly, I suspect. And you tell me, had you not moved on it as quickly as you did, you may have missed it.

Actually, I don't think so. Here's why. To this date, no one has done what we've done. What we've done four years later.

Interesting.

So what I learned, Ed, it's never too late. And here's why. Because what I realized was all the knowledge that I had. I'll be very transparent with you. I thought in my head, man, if I can do this again. You know, people were calling me the king of white papers back then. If I could do this again, if I could be one of the princes. I didn't have aspirations to be a king. If I could be one of the little princes of social media, coming into a space where I knew nothing, but doing exactly what I did for the white paper world. I got the makings of a really cool book, and I could do it over and over and over again, and I could become a serial entrepreneur. That's what I was thinking inside my head. And part of me, there was some fear going inside of my head, because I'm like, gosh, unlike white papers, there was hardly anybody doing it. This is. Everyone's talking about it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I understand what you're saying. Like, it was almost too late, is what you might have thought. But instead, what I said is, that's marketplace justification. If everybody is out there talking about it, it means it's a massive marketplace. That was the first thing I said. The second thing that I said is, nobody can do it the Mike Stelzner way, Nobody can do it the Ed Gandia way, nobody can do it your way. We all have our special, unique things that we do that nobody else can do. I knew what my special unique things was. It was building relationships, building alliances, and producing the detailed how to content. Because of my white paper background, I knew how to produce content people go nuts over. I knew exactly what people want, I knew how to find out what they wanted, and I knew how to give them what they wanted. So I took all the knowledge that I've gained over the years writing hundreds of white papers for huge brands, and I took that and dissected it and reformulated it and said, all right, we're not going to do it in a white paper. We're going to do it in a blog post. And we're going to do it because there was hardly anybody doing it. This is. Everyone's talking about it.

Yeah, yeah.

Three times a week. And we're just going to see what happens. We're going to give the goods away. So because of my unique background as a writer and my unique background as a business guy and a marketer, I brought something to the world of social media that did not exist. And had I waited, I still don't think it would have mattered. I may not be as big as I am right now, but I'd still be big.

Well, and there's something else you brought to the table that you had had some great success with this online summit approach. Nobody had really done that way. So now you've had real success doing that. You can bring that here to Social Media Examiner.

That's how I justified it. And you know what? It was going to be bankrolled by white paper source. So the idea was it was an experiment, and if it fails, no problem. I got a nice white paper business that's doing great.

Yeah, yeah. So there's a. Something I'd like to hear from you about, which is this whole idea of you are a writer, but it's obvious to me after listening to you, you're really an entrepreneur. So what would you say to someone who's trying to figure out all this? Sounds great, but I don't know if I can do that. I'm a writer. They see themselves as a writer only.

If you're a writer. You have all the makings of an entrepreneur. Here's why. To be a good writer, what do you have to do? Ed, answer the question. What do you have to do to be a good writer?

I think to be a good writer, you have to be able to synthesize information, to interview people, to put great content together to market.

Okay, so hold on. A second. Let's slow down. So you got to do some research, right?

Yeah.

So a good writer knows how to do research. What does a good entrepreneur need to do their research before they start? You said interviewing people. Well, if a good writer knows how to interview people well, then a good entrepreneur should do that too, right? You need to talk to people, you need to gather knowledge, you need to gather insight, you need to know what's working, you need to know what's not working. This is where most entrepreneurs get it wrong, because they don't know how to do any of that kind of stuff. And a writer is pre equipped with all that stuff.

That's a great point.

And a good writer also understands how to find stuff that other people can't find. They know how to position, they know how to articulate, they know how to communicate. These are all the kind of things that most entrepreneurs fail miserably at. So in reality, I think a writer is very well positioned, Ed, to become an entrepreneur. They just need to kind of look at their skills through a different lens.

Well, and if you're a copywriter as well, even more, because now you know how to market and how to persuade. How to persuade, Exactly. So that's a very good point. So you had those core skills. You're just, you were able to fully leverage them, unlike most people. Just, they use them in a very narrow way.

And I'm always, always looking, I'm always, always studying. I'm always, always watching. Go ahead.

Well, so that actually leads me to the next question, because Social Media examiner has been a huge success. And I was surprised when a few months ago you announced that you had thought up a new venture. And I thought, oh my gosh, how's he going to top this? So tell us about the inspiration for this new venture, how it came about, and why you did it.

Well, I was at Disneyland, and I've been working so hard on Social Media examiner and the white paper business that my kids were growing up so quick, it was shocking. And I thought to myself, when was the last time I was here? I realized it was seven years ago. And seven years ago, my youngest daughter wasn't even born. My middle daughter was a newborn, and my oldest was three. And I thought, and I realized it was seven years ago. And seven years ago, my youngest daughter wasn't even born. My middle daughter was a newborn, and my oldest was three. And I thought, holy cow. I have been working so hard, Ed, that if I don't do this little idea that I've had in the back of my head, it's going to be for my grandkids. Holy cow. I have been working so hard, Ed, that if I don't do this little idea that I've had in the back of my head, it's going to be for my grandkids. And I also realize that I've been working so hard that my kids are finding and I also realize that I've been working so hard that my kids are finding fun without their dad. They're finding fun on the couch with their game systems, netflix or whatever, and they're in their own little world, and I need to bring them back to my world. So I decided I don't really know how to do this fun without their dad. They're finding fun on the couch with their game systems, netflix or whatever, and they're in their own little world, and I need to bring them back to my world. So I decided I don't really know how to do this. I looked around, there was nothing out there. There's tons of resources out there for parents with really young kids that have toddlers, and there's lots of stuff out there for people. I looked around, there was nothing out there. There's tons of resources out there for teens, but there's nothing in the middle. And I. I mean nothing, Ed. And I thought to myself, why is that? And I thought, oh, I know why. Because once people put their kids in school, it's kind of up to the school and the after school programs and the sports programs and stuff. And parents kind of, you know, just assume all those kind of things are going to get taken care of by the school. And along the way, a lot of parents kind of disconnect and lose connections with their kids. So I thought to myself, huh? I want to bring this sense of adventure that I had as a kid. You know, when I grew up, Ed, I had a big wilderness behind my house. We were building forts, we were climbing trees, we were making up games, we were doing stuff. There wasn't these electronic things, you know what I mean?

I grew up the same way, man. In the 70s, we were building tree houses, we were out all day long.

We'D forget to eat with hula hoops, we were playing, you know, we were playing baseball, that we were doing fun stuff. And I want to bring a little bit of that nostalgia back. So I realized that people like me and like you that have children that are not teens yet, because once they're teens, you're pretty much, you know, it's kind of they're in their own little world once they're teens. So, you know, 11, 12 and under, people like us with kids that are in that age really do have this inner child inside of us that just wants to do fun stuff with their kids and it's a struggle. So I decided when I started my kids adventures to just empower parents by creating these just really cool articles that allow us to do cool things like how to have an indoor camping experience with tables and blankets and roasting marshmallows over candles, how to build, you know, just all sorts of stuff like indoor, outdoor kind of stuff, like how to do treasure hunts, you know, and just all these different ideas with treasure hunts. And I just had this crazy idea. I gave a two minute, I put a two minute video together. I presented it at a conference. 100 people came up to me and said, oh my gosh, this is incredible. So I knew I was onto something. And bottom line is I found a hole in the market. And it's targeting parents with kids that feel this sense of disconnectedness with their kids and really want to be reconnected with their kids but don't know where to go and don't have the ideas. And we're going to provide the ideas.

I love it.

Totally different than social media exams.

Yeah. And this is what really, in every way, this is what really threw me off. You know, we were talking earlier about how when you announced it, I made a guess as to what it would be and I was completely off. And I'm wondering, this is a great ideal. And you're right, I've looked. I got a 10 year old, I got a 2 year old. I've looked for ideas. I have the challenge of how can I find things that my 10 year old will enjoy. And I can still kind of involve the two year old because I'm alone with them a lot. My wife is a nurse. When she's worked, she works 14 hour shifts. It's just me and them and there's nothing. It's a fantastic resource by the way. Gotten great ideas from it already. I'm wondering what is your motivation? So there's a very strong core motivation there and I definitely feel it. Do you see this as a business or is this just strictly a resource?

Right now it's a movement. Okay. But being a guy that's a strategist and an entrepreneur, everything I do has an ulterior motive. But, but at the face, I really do want this for my own family. I need to connect with my kids and I know that there's millions of other People out there that feel the way that I do. And I honestly know that this is going to change families lives and these kids are going to remember these kinds of things.

And I definitely feel it. Do you see this as a business or is this just strictly a resource right now?

It's a movement. Okay. When they grow up, you know, and it's going to set things in motion that are going to have a huge impact on families. So that alone is really kind of the personal motivation behind all this. But there always is a business motivation behind everything that I do. A white paper source. I ultimately built it because I wanted to have a platform upon which I could publish a book. Social Media Examiner. Exactly the same thing. My kids adventures, if you want to venture to guess, maybe there's a children's novelist here in the future and maybe that's going to come to fruition. And I'll be honest, if my kids adventures takes off and people begin to love all this kind of adventure stuff, then I could see a day coming where maybe I do what I would always love to do, which is to write children's adventure novels. And we'll just see where that goes.

That's very cool. Well, I do see a difference here from your other businesses. And you know, I've been reading and studying the book. Start with why. I'm sure you're familiar with it from Simon Sinek. And what I see here is you have a very powerful, very strong and sincere, authentic. Why here? Not that you don't for your other businesses, but I think you have a very strong core.

It's personal too.

For a lot of people it is personal. And I think that has the makings of something very, very successful in, in all different ways. Not just, not just in terms of helping people, but I think it has real good promise as a business.

Thank you.

So I'm curious because you've been on both sides and by the way, you have staff now, right? You have staff at social media?

I do. I have six full time employees. Three of them are in our HQ office here, little office here, and then the rest are scattered across the country. And then I have about 24 contractors.

Wow. Wow. So tell me about what you enjoy most about growing and running these businesses. And then at the same time, what do you like least? What don't you really enjoy about it?

Well, deep down, and you know this about me, Ed, I love helping people. And what's great about what I've been able to do is it's been such a win, win, win for everyone. Even Back in the white paper days, you know, I didn't really. I mean, I was set so that I knew just a tiny little fragment of business I needed to be successful. But a lot of my friends in the industry like you got work as a result of what I was doing. The people that wanted to learn how to do it got work. Same thing with social media examiners. I get great personal satisfaction out of seeing it change people for the better or help people. There's a great business correlation there too, you know, because when you help people do something that they don't know how to do, they're gonna love you and they're gonna let their friends know about you. And with that, you can frankly do just about anything. Now I'm trying to circle back to what your original question was. Something about the employees.

Well, what do you like? Because this is a different model. What do you like best about growing, launching, growing and running a business of this magnitude versus a one man show?

There's a certain excitement level that comes to having a team of great people around you that you know are going to be there for you no matter what. Every freelancer will get to a certain point in his or her life where they will reach a glass ceiling because they are not scalable. And I've got. The world needs lots of freelancers. And. And there are some people that have the bug to want to do bigger things. And the only way to do bigger things is to try to break through that ceiling. And the only way to break through that ceiling means you got to hire people. And in the beginning it could be contractors, but eventually it needs to be employees if you're going to build something big because you need someone who's going to stick with you. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And not be pulled in three different directions because they have three different clients. So I love having a team. And it's been a slow, methodical process. It started with an assistant who became my first employee after many years. You know, we got to the point where I had so much work for her that it just made sense, you know. And then eventually, slowly, methodically, almost everybody started as a contractor and then became full time employees, which is kind of a nice smooth road down that path. But I love it because it does offer some freedom. And everybody who's a freelancer does aspire to stick with you, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And not be pulled in three different directions because they have three different clients. So I love having a team. And it's been a slow, methodical process. It Started with an assistant who became my first employee after many years. You know, we got to the point where I had so much work for her that I'd have freedom. And the dirty trap of freelancing is that you can get sucked into the work and never have freed. And when you ultimately do transition, if you ever do to having a business with employees, you can get to the point where you're not having to work your butt off all the time. And that's one of the great success. It just made sense. And then eventually slow. I'm still heavily involved in the editorial and the art directly, methodically. Almost everybody started as a contractor and then became full time employees. Which is kind of a nice smooth road down that path. But I love it because of everything that we do. But I can take a vacation and be in Mexico for a week, completely disconnected, without any concern. And that's a cool freedom.

Your business still runs.

It does offer some freedom. And everybody who's a freelancer does aspire to have. It still runs. The downside though, Ed, is that I am the best at what I do in my business and you have to relinquish a little bit of control and accept that not everyone can do it your way. And that gets tricky.

That is. Yeah. Especially when you come from the world of a solo business.

Exactly. Have freedom. And the dirty trap of freelancing is that. So that's the downside. You have to kind of learn to accept that people are going to make mistakes, that things aren't going to be. You can get sucked into the work and never have freedom. And. And when you ultimately do transition, if you ever do to having a business with employees, you can't perfect that. Everybody has different skills and you're gonna have to work really hard to train them. And you are gonna have to transition from being the doer to being the manager. And for some people, they can't handle that. You know what I mean? I have to manage my executive team and I have to keep learning how to do that because that's a new skill within its own. Right. Get to the point where you're not having to work your butt off all the time. And that's one of the great successes. I'm still heavily involved in the editorial and the art direction. Managing clients is totally different than managing a team that's trying to grow your business of everything that we do. But I can take a vacation and be in Mexico for a week, completely disconnected, without any concern. It's a cool freedom. Your business still runs and you have to be a leader and you have to learn a lot of new things. And that's scary and yet exciting. And you make a lot of mistakes. Sometimes you lose people and, you know, it's a riskier proposition for sure, because when you're a freelancer, basically you know that your employee is never going to let you down because it's you. It still runs. The downside though, Ed, is that I am the best at what I do in my business and you have to relinquish a little bit of control.

Yes, I get approached by a lot of people and I'm sure you do this as well. A lot of freelancers who, they know they want to go down this path, maybe not scale it to the point that you have, but they know they want to start a side business to kind of add some diversity to their income and what they do, but they're not sure where to go. They're not sure how to approach this process. What would you tell somebody like that?

First and foremost started out as an experiment. Right now my kids Adventures is an experiment and Social Media examiner was an experiment. If you approach it as an experiment, then you have to be willing to let it fail. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Troll and accept that not everyone can do it your way. That gets tricky.

That is, yeah. Especially when you come from the world of a solo business.

Exactly. The easiest way to do an experiment is just to allocate a little bit of your time and maybe to hire a contractor to help you get started and try it out and say to yourself, all right, if this happens, then I'm willing to try this. So that's the downside. You have to kind of learn to accept that people are going to make mistakes, that things aren't going to be perfect, that everybody has different skills, and you're going to have to work really hard to train them and you are going to have to transition from being the doer to being the manager. And for some people, if this doesn't happen, then I'm willing to back off or I'm willing to try again. If you treat it like an experiment, like I'm doing with my kids adventures right now, then the real question is, does it stick? And it's not very risky that way because it's not like you pour your entire life into it. And Ed, it's not all that different than what you preach when you're talking to people that are full time. Right. And they want to get to not be full time. Right?

Exactly.

People, they can't handle that, you know, What I mean, I have to manage my executive team and I have to keep learning how to do that because that's a new skill within its own right. Managing clients is totally different than managing a team that's trying to grow your business and you have to be a leader and you have to learn a lot of new things and that's scary yet.

Exactly when they were trying to go from, from employee to. To self employed. Exactly, exactly.

It's the same kind of thing. So you just have to find somebody who can help you in the areas where you have weaknesses and that's going to be critical. But I don't recommend anybody start a business that's totally outside of their comfort zone. Both social media, exciting and you make a lot of mistakes, sometimes you lose people. It's a riskier proposition for sure because when you're a freelancer, basically you know that your employee is never gonna let you down because it's you. Examiner and my kids adventures are totally within our comfort zone because we are a publisher of content and I know content. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So I just have to find people that know how to do kids activities. That's the difference.

Yes. I get approached by a lot of people and I'm sure you do this.

With my kids adventures and, and I was able to find those people through my network as well.

A lot of freelancers who, they know they want to go down this path, maybe not scale it to the point that you have, but they know they want to start a side business to.

Do the same thing with social media. Examiner, the idea is to try to leverage people within your network and not to go so far outside your comfort zone that you can't do most of it yourself but, but hopefully these other people can bring their little expertise to it. So if it's a topical shift, what's the topical expertise you need? If it's not to kind of add.

Some diversity to their income and what they do, but they're not sure where to go, they're not sure how topical shift.

Maybe it's a competency shift. Maybe you don't know enough about the tech. Well, who do you know that does that can help you and that's how you begin the process.

I think it's great advice. I think it's great advice. I'm wondering, you've gone through these businesses, you've been around for 20 years doing some sort of either freelancing or entrepreneur to approach this process. What would you tell somebody like that.

First and foremost started out as an experiment, right now my kids adventures is an experiment and Social Media examiner was an experiment. If you approach it as an experiment then you have to be willing to let it fail. Does that make sense?

Yes. Ship. Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently?

Nothing.

I love it.

Not a thing. You want to know why? Ed, every mistake that I've ever made has gotten so the easiest way to do an experiment is just to allocate a little bit of your time. Me here, everything that I've screwed up has taught me and maybe to hire a contractor to help you get started and try it out and say to yourself alright, if this happens then I'm willing to try this lesson. There's nothing that I've regretted and I look at everything that goes wrong. Let me give you an example. I invested. If this doesn't happen then I'm willing to back off or I'm willing to try again. $100,000 into building my own social network on social media examiner called the networking clubs and I shut it down two months ago and we moved to LinkedIn. It was a failure. It didn't work. But you know what I learned? If you treat it like an experiment, like I'm doing with my kids adventures right now, then the real question is does it stick? And it's not very risky that way because it's not like a heck of a lot about have how to build a community, how to get advocates and all that stuff is going to come into play. If my kids adventures grows, all the development costs, all the knowledge that I have is not for naught because if my kids adventures takes off, you pour your entire life into it. And Ed, it's not all that different than what you preach when you're talking to people that are full time. Right. And they want to get to not be full time. Right?

Exactly, exactly. When they were trying to go from employee to. To self employed. Exactly.

We'll take all that knowledge and port it over there. So all these things that I fail. Exactly. It's the same kind of thing. So you just have to find somebody who can help you are just like lessons that I need to learn and it helps me grow and I've learned way more from my failures so I honestly would not change a thing. I wouldn't have started at a different time. I wouldn't do anything probably, you know and I've always been one of those kind of guys that had had very little fear when it comes to trying something new. You know, I'm just, I've been the man with the Machete in the woods, carving new paths. That's just kind of. I've been born that way, so I don't really. I don't really regret anything that I've done as far as. And I don't think I honestly would do anything differently. Have I done things in the areas where you have weaknesses and that's going to be critical. But I don't recommend anybody start a business that's totally outside of their comfort zone. Both Social Media examiner and my kids Adventures are totally within our comfort zone because we are a publisher of content and I know content. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So I do differently for sure. I've learned a lot along the way, Ed, My kids Adventures, I launched that totally different than I did Social Media examiner. Just because when the. When the facts change, when the times change, when the ways that you do things change, well, then you grow. And Ed, when you start your next venture, you're going to start it differently than you did your last one because you have to find people that know how to do kids activities. That's the difference with my kids Adventures. And I was able to find those people through my network and I was able to do the same thing with Social Media Examiner. So the idea is to try to leverage people.

Absolutely. Mistakes are only a way to get more scar tissue and that's really how you learn.

And I don't want anybody to think I've done it perfectly. I put within your network and not to go so far outside your comfort zone that you can. I haven't, but I just wouldn't change a thing.

Yeah, well, because it's the way you see mistakes.

Yeah. And you know what? Honestly, someone listening right now, if you're not making a mistake, something's wrong with you. Can't do most of it yourself. But hopefully these other people can bring their little expertise. I'm not kidding. If you're not making mistakes, then you're not learning. It means you don't see them. And I like making mistakes because it always to it. So if it's a topical shift, what's the topical expertise you need? If it's not a topical shift, maybe it's a competency shift. Maybe you don't know enough about the tech. Well, who do you know that forces me to take it to the next level? And complacency really is what makes things dry out. What's really fun with the launching of my kids Adventures is us that can help you. And that's how you begin the process.

I think it's great advice I think it's great advice. I'm wondering, you've gone through these businesses, you've been around for 20 years doing some sort of either freelancing or entrepreneurship. Knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently?

I've learned so much that I'm going to go back and reapply to Social Media examiner and it's pretty exciting. Nothing.

I love it.

Not a thing.

This is very cool. I'm going to be following your progress all the way, my friend.