#026: How (and Why) to Partner with Designers to Grow Your Business

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing.

Podcast, helping you propel your writing business.

To a whole new level.

And now here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Well, hello everyone and thank you for joining me for episode number 26 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a reminder, you can find detailed show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 26 the number 26. So I am very, very excited about my guest today because Peter Bowerman is got to be one of the most influential mentors in the world of commercial writing. He is an excellent teacher, an excellent coach, and I've personally learned a ton from him. And I have to share a quick story with you. I remember the moment that commercial writing and copywriting became very real for me was directly, it directly involved Peter. I had bought his book, the well Fed Writer. And I had bought it from Amazon. It had just come in, I had taken, taken it out of the box and I put it on my dinner table and I hadn't even looked at it yet, but I was really excited to read it. And my parents were visiting from out of town and you know, I was at that point in my, in my career where this is something that I really wanted to do. I was really excited about the prospect of starting my own writing business. But I still had my, my full time day job and I hadn't really told a lot of people other than my wife about my plans to kind of start this business on the side and grow it to see if it was viable and eventually do this for a living. So I had kind of mentioned it to my dad, but you know, here he is, he's coming from out of town. He saw the book and my dad is an avid reader. So of course right away he's flipping through it, he's looking at the table of contents. And I come downstairs and I see him reading the book and he shows it to me and he says, Ed, this is fantastic. And he opens it up to the table of content. In one of the chapters I remember like it was Yesterday was titled $2,000 a month, no problem. And that's the moment when I realized that there's a real opportunity here. For one, the idea of earning $2,000 a month. And I think it said $2,000 a month part time. The idea of earning that kind of money part time really got Me excited also to have my dad point it out and have my dad immediately recognize the opportunity in a way, kind of validated. Meant a lot to me. So Peter was really one of my first mentors, indirect mentors in this business. And I'm very, very excited to have him on the show. One of the things that he does extremely well, win, win, win scenarios by partnering with freelance designers. And I say win, win, win, because not only does he create a situation where you can win, but he does it in a way that both the designer and the client can win. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to talk about how this strategy has added tens of thousands of dollars to Peter's income over the years. He's going to explain how you can contact designers, how you can find them, how you can structure these opportunities so that everybody wins, how you can price your. So we got a lot to cover. Let's get right to it. I think you're really going to enjoy this talk. All right, so I'm sitting here, well, kind of virtually sitting here with Peter Bowerman, author of the well Fed Writer, the well Fed Writer series, well Fed self publisher and freelance writer extraordinaire. Peter, it's awesome to have you here.

Thanks, Ed. Always good to hang with you.

Yeah. You know, I don't even know if I. If people know this or if I should say it, but, you know, Peter and I get together every once in a while and break bread, and Peter has taken me to some of the most exotic restaurants in the Atlanta area.

I definitely pushed the envelope. But, hey, you know, Ed comes from an ethnic background, so, you know, he's always open to these things.

I know, I know, but, you know, so I'd never told you this, but I've noticed a trend here. So it has to be ethnic. It cannot be a chain.

Absolutely not. Life's too short to eat chain restaurants.

Yeah. And, you know, I've noticed some of them have flies. I mean, I don't know. This is like a trend or a pattern.

Wait a minute. Why? Do you see the one we're going to Friday? Yeah. So we're taqueria on Friday, and it's pretty authentic. So.

But you know what? That's one thing it's not lacking, Right. It's authenticity.

That's right. This place. This place is clean. Really, really serious.

I want to see the Certificates of Cleanliness.

That's right. The Health Department.

The Health Department, yes.

I think it's at least a 50, 55 oh, gosh.

So this is, you know, so we. We haven't caught up in a while, so it'll be. It'll be fun to do that. But today we're going to be talking about forming relationships with designers and what that's about, what. What you can gain from. From these partnerships, why they make sense, and how you can find designers that you can partner with. And Peter. The reason I wanted to bring Peter in for this is he's been doing this for a long time, and he has really perfected the art and science of this. And he's got a unique way of doing it. It's a proven method, if he can even call it that. But anyway, he's really profited from it, and I wanted him to share some of these insights with you. So let's start by talking about how this whole idea came about, Peter, because I think you said you started doing this years ago.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And, you know, and as much as I want to, I'm going to counter a little bit of what you said in that this kind of came about just by chance, really. And sometimes the best things do, which, you know, moral story is just be open to things, even if they're unexpected. I was actually doing a column million years ago. I mean, we're talking back in the mid-90s for a local, and I was put in touch with the person who was laying it out for the newspaper back in the day when they actually printed newspaper.

What's a newspaper?

It'd take too long to get into. But we'll discuss that over lunch. I think I have a few around the house. I'll bring one. And this woman and I got to talking and turns out she was kind of doing this on the side to help this friend of hers out who worked at the magazine, but she was a designer who did commercial work, and she shortly thereafter went to work for a big graphic design firm and then began bringing me in to the design firm to work on projects. And they were doing a lot of work for Coca Cola and a lot of other companies. And I, over the years, have done good bit of work, continue to do a good bit of work for them, even after she left, which was in 97, I think, to open up her own company. And that's really the first thing is if you're working with a design firm, get to know the good designers, because it's only a matter of time until they go off on their own. The good ones always do. They wake up one day and they say, wait a minute, why am I making what is in essence about $30 an hour while the company is making all this, especially if they have a few clients going, hey, if you ever decide to go off on your own, you can count on me. And then because we had a relationship and that's really the key to this, is forming a relationship, she started calling on me for her work with her clients and literally for, and actually just a few weeks ago, I got a call from her. So we're talking, we're pushing 20 years here for another project, but literally for a good 15, 16 years. I talk about this in my promos and all that. It was a rare month when I didn't get a call from her saying, hey, I got another project. Hey, I got another project. And of course, these are all commercial projects. They're all high paying projects and we'll get into what you have to be to be that go to writer. But it really does come down to skills and actually hunting for those people too. But that's kind of how it got started. And then another designer went to work for her doing some production and she and I really clicked. And then she went off on her own and she's another one I work with who thinks of me first always. So anytime a project comes up that needs writing or, and here's the key really, when you're really good and you do and you bring real value to that designer, they look for opportunities to bring you in on projects. They will sell you to the client because they know the difference that your copy can make on a particular, you know, on any given project, as it's done for so many of theirs before. So, and that's golden when you've got someone who's actively lobbying, advocating for you, when you're not even there to get you involved.

So, I mean, so yeah, this started years ago. You've continued those relationships. But I'm wondering if I'm starting out today. Maybe I'm not a beginner writer, but I'm starting this process today and I want to look for some designers to partner up with. How do you find them and what do you look for when you're searching for potential designers to approach?

Yeah, well, and I'm kind of smiling as I'm answering this, but any designer would be interested in a relationship like this, but mainly because they're hoping you're going to be bringing them work. Okay. And you may very well be. And I always encourage writers who are starting out to forge those alliances, not only because that person can bring you work, but because when you're out there talking to a client, you can present a turnkey scenario, you can say, would you be interested in me and a graphic designer taking this project from start to finish, from first meeting to final handoff of deliverable? And if it's a smaller company that doesn't have those kind of resources in house, what do you think the answer is going to be? Of course, yeah, absolutely. Then you can bring that person in. That's where you morph from being a service provider to a solution provider. And that's sort of the 30,000 foot view, the features versus benefits thing. A feature is I'm a writer. A benefit is I can handle this project from start to finish. So anyone would be open to that. The key is really going to be do you have the skills, do you have the persistence to stay in touch with somebody to get that in terms, to build that relationship? In terms of the types of companies obviously, or designers, obviously you want to be looking for designers who were established, which is, that's the good news and the bad news. If they're established, they already have writers that they work with. And so you in some cases just have to kind of play the waiting game and the, you know, check in every now and then game and let them know you're there because things do change eventually. Now I did start with someone who was relatively young and that's going to make it easier. Obviously if they don't know too many writers, then they may just, and you're delivering the goods, they may very well just fall very easily into a relationship with you. But the key there is do they have what it takes to really the staying power to last as long as some are they going to be in business?

So it sounds like you don't necessarily need to pick one and say, you know, okay, this is the one that I'm going to approach and try to partner up with. You can approach many different designers.

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean I have, right now I have a couple of bids out with a designer, new designer, having worked with them yet that I cold called earlier this year. We got together for coffee and I mean, you never know. The guy's been in business for a very long time, but you never know. I mean he didn't have as good context with, with writers as he'd like or he knew some of course, but we really clicked and so he's really been looking for opportunities to, to bring me in and you know, we're bidding on some work that actually had me do two bids and together, you know, these two bids are over $15,000 in work, so.

Wow. Your part or the whole project?

My part. Wow. Yeah. So I mean, you know, nothing, it means nothing until it's signed on the bottom line. But you know, this is, it's realistic, very realistic. So. But again, yeah. So there's no limit. You can have a dozen out there if you want. It's just so happened that I settled in to a routine with several of them. And don't misunderstand, there were others. It's just that those two were the main ones and there was probably half a dozen other ones who called me from time to time. But altogether it was an enormous part of my work load, really. And I sat down one day and I realized, I talked about this in the book, in the well fed writer, that this one solo graphic designer, the first one that I met was by far over the years in the aggregate my biggest client. Oh, wow. Not a Fortune 500 company, whatever. Because people change. You know, there's turnover, people come and go. But as long as that person is in business, as this person has been for many, many years, if they need writing, why are they going to go anywhere else? I mean, it's that same dynamic of, you know, you find a good hairstylist, you find a good massage therapist, you find a good mechanic, you find a good, you know, you name it, plumber, you're going to stick with them because they've demonstrated that they know what they're doing and they make your life easier. And why would you go anywhere else?

So you mentioned cold calling a little bit earlier. I'm curious, how do you approach designers? What do you think is the best approach when cold call when contacting them?

I don't know that there's a best approach because everybody's different and everybody likes to be contacted differently. I cold called just because that's how I built my business. That's what I'm comfortable with. I don't have any fear of the process by this point. When I was doing that, I did a whole bunch of cold calling to designers when you've been in the business, frankly, I mean, let's call a spade a spade. When you've been in the business for as long as I have and you're not desperate for the work, making phone calls to potential partners is a much different vibe. You know, it's just less stressful. It's, you know, it's like, hey, I'm going to make some new friends today.

Instead of I got to pay the mortgage next Friday and I have, you know, like less than half of it.

Right. And so I guess the moral of that is you should always be making calls as if, you know, you have nothing looming over you. And that's not always easy to do. But as much as possible, you want to be able to compartmentalize. Okay, this is my financial reality and this is how I'm going to pretend it's my financial reality when I'm on the phone. Because that's what attracts people, is when you don't care. I don't want to say you don't care, but you know what I mean. You know, it's. You've been in sales, you know, he who cares least wins. You know, the person who is relaxed and you know, hey, either way, no problem. And I had so many people say at the end of the phone call, you know, hey, thanks for calling. It was really good talking to you and let's stay in touch. Or maybe more, you know, so. But so it really depends. You could do it by cold calling, you could do it by email. Of course, your email prospecting approach, which, it's funny, I'm hearing more and more about that type of thing. Just short, inviting, to the point, conversational kind of contacts that way, if you just can't stand the idea of picking up the phone and calling a total stranger. But at the same time, these relationships are built on relationship. And so to me, the phone is the first real bonafide way to connect with somebody which an email can't do, mail piece can't do.

I agree with you there. And let me throw something out there because, you know, I'm not a big fan of cold calling. However, I think this is a bit of a different situation in that one of the biggest fears when I talk to other freelancers. Why do you hate about cold calling? There are many, many reasons, but one of them that's recurring is I just feel like I'm bugging them, like I'm talking to them about something they don't need. And I don't want to get into why that's not really valid or valid. But. But here's the thing. I think when you're contacting a designer, writing is something they need all the time. There's no doubt, you know what I'm saying? Like some companies, you're calling them, but you don't know if they're actually do much writing.

See, I'm not, I'm not sure I'd even agree with that. But. But I understand. Your point is well taken, you know.

Yeah, I think it's a perception. I'm not saying this is reality. I'm just saying like this is something I would probably tell myself to help me feel a little bit more confident.

Well, and yeah, and if, hey, whatever works. If that works. But Justin. And then you're right, we don't want to get into that. That could be another discussion for another day.

I think we have another podcast episode here.

But I really do believe that writing is an integral part of any businesses value proposition. And in my experience, in all the cold calling that I have done over the years, I don't even remember anyone responding. Anybody who a company, small, large, whatever. If I got to the right person who acted like they didn't know what I was talking about or, or what I was talking about didn't have any applicability to them. It was either, you know, yes, we occasionally have needs or no, we're covered on that. But it was a very legitimate question to ask via phone, you know, do you have a need, occasional or ongoing, for someone to help with marketing communications material? Nobody thought that was a dumb question. And I think that really comes down to. Also comes down to a couple things. Calling the right people and being the right person on the phone, meaning just assuming you deserve to be there.

Well, tell me and then we'll move on. But I'm curious, what would be, what's the standard question that you ask then if approaching a designer when you cold call?

Well, the same thing. I mean the same thing I would say and ask to a small company, which is, which is simply, hey, Peter Bowerman, longtime copywriter here in Atlanta. Just checking in with you and seeing if you have any ongoing or occasional needs for a good copywriter. And sometimes I'll embellish it a little bit and you always get a chuckle out of them. A good, experienced, engaging, fun copywriter. And they always laugh a little bit to help out with any projects you have going on. And with the designer, like you say, clearly they are in a lot of cases and this is the bane of their existence and ours, of course, the projects that they're getting, the client has written their own copy and isn't open to someone else. C' est la vie. Lead a horse to water. But yes, the need and the potential need is always there. So that's really just enough to. I mean, this is the thing. Don't make this any more complicated than it has to be in terms of what you're going to say when you call somebody up.

No, but I like that because I think from there then you let it take its course.

Absolutely. But I think everyone wanted to say at that point, so I think everyone.

Needs kind of an opener just to kind of ease their mind. It's like, okay, practice it and then just be yourself, right?

Be yourself and get to the point. You know, get to the point quick. You know, don't. How you doing today? You know, don't, don't get into. And that's true for even sending emails, you know, don't, you know, don't just blather on and on. You know, get to the point about what you're, what you're saying and.

Well, I think we definitely have a topic for a future show here. Definitely one of. As I'm hearing you, I definitely want to bring you on for that because you have some great ideas and you've built your business with cold calling. But this brings up another question. You said, hey, I'm a copywriter here in Atlanta. Do you have to look for designers locally or can you approach out of town designers?

Well, of course you can definitely can go out of town. I mean, geography has become less and less of an issue. And vis a vis what we said a little earlier, given that the strongest relationships are ones that are personal, because this is built on a relationship. Excuse me. It's always easier to build that relationship if you can meet with the person. So in answer your question, yes, you can do it. I have not. I'm trying to remember if I've done. If I built this with designers on the other side of the country. I'm sure I have in 20 years, but it certainly hasn't been ongoing enough for me to remember it. But the ideal situation is to have it. Have someone local. Now I'm at a point with a lot of my designers where I'm. And a lot of my clients, for that matter, that I'm just. We don't meet anymore. We're doing it all by phone and by email. But we built that relationship initially. So don't hear this as discouragement. Just hear this as if you do build it with someone from a long distance away. It'll just be a different kind of relationship. It can be just as lucrative because fundamentally, and we're going to be getting into this fundamentally, that relationship is based on mutual benefit. They continue to call me because I make them look better and I make their, their deliverables look better and their portfolio look better and their clients happier. And that's a given no matter where that designer is. Okay? So absolutely, you can do it because I can only imagine the people who are listening to this, who may live in small towns where there just isn't a lot of work and they by definition have to go outside to really build a business. So, yeah, do that. And the bottom line is there's going to be some designers who, you know, because I've heard this lately from this guy that I just put that big bid in with. He said there was another guy who was bidding on this, but I found out that he moved to Orlando. And I'd really prefer to have the potential to be able to meet with somebody face to face. And so it's a self selecting process, meaning those designers for whom that will not be a problem will be receptive. Those designers for whom that will be a problem, won't.

So tell us a little bit about the different ways to structure these projects, these deals. I mean, do you bring the designer in and just mark up his or her services or is it better for each person party to kind of deal with the client separately? Tell us a little bit about the different possibilities here.

Yeah, in my experience, as a rule, it's not even up to you, the writer, to determine how this works. Usually the designer is. Even if I bring the designer in, I frankly don't want to project manage. Yes, you can make a little more money if you project manage, but I just as soon let the designer handle that. And in 99.9% of the cases, they're the logical choice to handle it as well because they're the last ones to touch the project. So you finish writing your copy and you send it to them. And once the copy is approved, then it's the designer and the client going back and forth to get that design exactly where it needs to be. And then the designer is working with the printer as well. If it's a printed piece or if there is some bottom line, they're the last ones to touch it. Whether it's them, it ends with if it's a digital deliverable or if it's something that's printed as far as how it's billed. With this one designer that I've worked with for the longest time, most of the time I'm working for her. So I bill her and she pays me. Sometimes she will just let me. And this is the way it works in a lot of cases. Just let me bill the client directly and we both have separate invoices. It can work either way. And I don't know that there's. I mean, I guess I prefer to deal with the client directly as far as billing goes, but Sometimes it's a plus for the client to be able to pay one invoice, but even that isn't a big deal. I have learned over the years that clients, unless they're really, really, really, really, really savvy, and they've done this a million times before, that they will generally take your lead. In other words, if you in essence say to them, I'll build my part and she'll bill hers. And they're fine with that because. Oh, that's the way it's done, I guess. And by the same token is, you know, Peter will work under me and you'll just pay one invoice. Okay. That's how it's done.

So the same goes with the designer himself or herself. You could just write when you're in the early stages of the relationship, just tell them, hey, I'm open to an arrangement that works for the two of us, and you let them take the lead.

Right. But, but, but I guess, I guess in my experience, designers traditionally, not just with me, just traditionally, have been project managers. And as project managers, they're taking the lead on the project.

Gotcha. Which I agree with you about.

Which makes sense. Better.

Yeah, it makes more sense. It's kind of like you. You frame the house and put up the drywall, and they're the ones you're done. Right. So now they're.

They're.

They're painting, they're putting up plumbing fixtures and flooring and carpeting. They're doing the inside design.

That's right. That's right. And it just underscores how easy our job is when you think about it. It's like we do our thing, we get a sign off, and we're gone. We bill it, we're gone, and someone else does all of the cleanup work. I love it. It's like you make the meal and someone does the dishes.

Well, along these same lines. And the answer might be the same here, but how do you quote or pitch the work when there's two of you involved? I mean, what. Have you seen work best?

Yeah, again, it depends on the situation. When I build this. When I quoted this work I was just telling you about with this new designer, these two estimates I just sent him, just a. Literally just line items, the four or five deliverables. And this is my estimate. And he plugged that into his master estimate that he's going to send to the client. Sometimes, you know, sometimes you're doing something a little more formal and the designer's taking your sheet, however it's designed and Just incorporating it without changes into their estimate. And sometimes it's separate. But when you're working together with a designer and you're in essence pitching that turnkey, it obviously just makes sense to submit one estimate, because that's kind of the whole point is we're taking this thing from start to finish as a team, so the estimate comes as a team.

I'm curious, do you treat them kind of like you would an agency where maybe you're not pricing as high as you would if it was a direct client?

Interesting. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. My experience with my designers is I usually get my rate and they don't ask me to really lower that rate. Now they may raise that rate. And just this last deal that this designer of mine and I, 20 years after we started or close to it, just bid on is she said, just give me an estimate or send them an estimate and I'm not going to mark you up. But oftentimes when it's coming through them as a master estimate, they are marking me up. And that's fine, that's standard, because that's part of the project management fee. But sometimes if a project is such that, and this was the case with this one I just did with his new designer, he really, really, really wants to get this project. So he's not going to mark me up. He's going to just pass through my figures just as is.

And that's good that he told you that. So I'm wondering, how do you broach a subject? How do you feel it out so you can determine where you should probably be in terms of pricing? I mean, obviously you can't just say, well, listen, are you going to mark this up? Because if you're not, I'm going to go ahead and quote my full rate.

No, I mean, this is the thing. You should have a good. By the time someone gets to a point where they're saying, I want to work with you, and here's something we have to. Here's something I'd like to get an estimate on, you have a good relationship with that person and you need to be and can be very honest with them. So when, for instance, when I just estimated with this new guy, I said, and it was interesting because I consulted with one of my colleagues who has worked with him in the past about the estimate itself. Yes, even people who've been doing this 20 years still like to bounce things off of other people. And he gave me some verbiage, which isn't like some legal verbiage or anything, but it was just kind of, once things are a little more firm, I'm happy to adjust these figures. In other words, we didn't have as much information because it's secondhand. Actually, it's kind of third hand because he's been asked by a firm to give an estimate and that firm is working for the client. So there's actually like almost certain there's three layers in here. So it's like a marketing company who then is hiring him, who is then hiring me. And so, yeah, in that case, we didn't know. If we found out that the parameters of the project were not exactly how they were originally we thought they were, then we could adjust it up or down. And that's the thing. If you are unsure of the parameters when you're giving a quote, and it's not going to be easy to get that information quickly before you need to give that quote, then you just offer that quote up based on certain assumptions. I don't know exactly what this will eventually be, but I'm going to assume for the moment that it is a six panel brochure of this size. Okay. And then if it turns out it's an ink panel or it's bigger or whatever, then you can adjust it up. But that way at least you're protecting yourself that if it is this particular project, type, shape, size, format, amount of copy, that I'll be okay with this estimate.

Okay, that makes sense. We already talked a little bit about who takes the lead in these projects, but I'm wondering in terms of communication with the client. You know, as writers, we can't just write in a vacuum. We have to have contact with the client so we can ask questions and get clarification. How do you find that typically works?

I'm sorry, I cut out for a second because I was trying to turn off my email because it was making that little noise. Okay.

You're not multitasking on me, are you?

No, only so I don't have to. All right.

So in terms of the communications with the client, when you need to get clarification, you need to ask questions, you need to interview people. How do you typically manage that?

Well, that's a very interesting question because over the years the designer I've worked with a lot often had me funnel any questions through her and which can set up kind of the telephone game. And so ideally I always. And it is the ideal situation to be able to get direct access. And so I will always ask for that, but I will also just live with whatever scenario comes up. I mean, Obviously, if you're, if you brought the client in, or if you're the one who brought the designer in for your client, then that's not really an issue. But if it is the other way, it can work both ways. But obviously you want to be able to get access to the client and if it's a new designer that you're working with, you want to just make sure you assure them that you're always professional, that you do this all the time, that you will represent. Because think about it from their point of view. They've decided they want to work with you, but they don't know exactly how you work and all that. And here they are bringing you in with one of their perhaps very good clients or a potentially really big client that they hope to get. And so they want to make sure that you are going to represent yourself and them in the best possible light. So at least be sensitive if there's some hesitation as to. That's why there may be some. But always lobby to get that direct access because your end result, the copy you write will only be better if you can get it straight from the horse's mouth and the information you need.

That's actually a good segue into my next question, which is how do you become a designer's go to writer and how do you develop that long term relationship like you have, you have people you've been working with for almost 20 years.

Yeah, and it's one of those things, we touched on this earlier, you know, it's a combination of a number of things. Obviously if you ask them. And actually in the ebook that I created, I mean, I actually interviewed some, my two favorite, plus another one, and asked them what they look for. And to me the first thing clearly is the skill. Someone who can step into a situation quickly, get up to speed, come up with good copy. I mean, I come from a sales background, so that makes it easier for me to write, to sell, given that most of the work I've been doing for these folks is marketing copy. That's a big plus. So, you know, it's like anything, the people who are at the top of their craft in terms of income and amount of work are the ones who have good skills and who built a good reputation. And yeah, it's more than just skills, it's also about being easy to get along with, flexible. Someone who can roll with the punches, who isn't a prima donna, who's not a whiner, not going to take every little bump in the road as an invitation to complain. About something. Someone who does. Who's very detail oriented, turns in clean copy. I mean, have we all made mistakes at one point, turned in copy with a typo or something?

Never. Never.

Well, you, my friend, are. I bow down to you. So it's happened to all of us. It happened once to me, and I discovered it after 5,000 brochures have been printed. That was a fun moment. But anyway, but make it the very, very rare exception because, I mean, I remember it sticks in my mind. Going on vacation and one of my designers wanted to, you know, wanted me involved in a project, and I was like, hey, can't do it. You know, I'm leaving soon. I'll be gone for two weeks or whatever. And when I came back, they were just wailing and mumbling about how this copywriter they had to use was turning in, you know, work that was full of typos. And, I mean, I'm sitting there going, really? You know, it's hard to imagine that there's this sloppiness that someone wouldn't take the time to, you know, it's either you don't know you've made a mistake, which is really bad, or you just don't have the rigor involved with that. You need to have to turn something in that is pristine. And don't think that just because you're a great copywriter you can get away with a bunch of mistakes or a bad attitude or whatever. It's really a combination of. Of all of that. And I've seen writers who skills may not be as stellar, but because they're so easy to work with and so easygoing and they turn in such clean work that a lot of clients, they can build a business because clients like working with them.

I think that is so such an important point. It's big. And this obviously goes beyond just working with designers, but to me, ease of doing business, you know, being someone that's easy to work with, likable, to me, is so important. The way I view it, Peter, is it's like you need to be at a certain level of skill in terms of your writing.

Yes, Right.

Kind of a bare minimum. Once you're in there, it's like being at the high school dance. You have just as good a chance to dance with. With the pretty girls as anybody else.

Right. And I think what that underscores is the fact that in our business, let's face it, in our business, yes, if you're a brilliant writer, you're going to get, you're going to be able to get into doors and work on types of projects that other people maybe aren't as brilliant, won't be able to, and the work may be more fun and all that, but in our field, a good solid writing ability is enough in most cases that. In most cases, clients aren't looking for brilliant, wildly creative copy. They're looking for good, clear, concise communication. And if you couple that with solid, just think of the word solid. Not flashy solid. But if you couple that with easy to get along with and everything else, no reason you can't build business. Assuming you're out there. Pound the pavement one way or another.

No substitute for that, for sure. So actually, that leads me to my last question, which is, this is starting to sound really good to me. And I know people listening are thinking, you know, I wonder if I can build and grow a whole business writing business on strategy alone. Can you survive just by calling on graphic designers, developing relationships with a few solid ones, and do nothing else?

No, that's the short answer. Is it possible? It's possible if you're not trying to build a huge business and you can get a few relationships going. The key really is that it's a strategy that's somewhat out of your control after a certain point. Meaning that once you make these contacts, unless you're, you know, if you're counting on the work coming from their side most, and frankly, it's worked that way over the years, the work has come from their side most. But if you're counting on that as your, you know, as the way to really make a complete living, what are you going to do if it's not coming? You can't just keep beating on them. So you really need to be seeking out work directly. And the fact is that in my experience, 80% of the people that you call, that you cold call or contact, whatever, aren't going to be interested in your services. So only 20% are. And of that 20%, there's probably only 20% of those that will need a designer. Of all of the possible projects that a graphic designer comes across, it's going to be a relatively small percentage that are going to need copy, because they already have copy. They've got their own, or they got their own writer or for any number of reasons. But for me, it ended up being like once or twice a month I would get a call for a project. Well, that's great, but once or twice a month isn't going to. What could that come out to be? That could come out to be 30,000 or $40,000 a year or more, depending on the client. But that's not enough unless your goal is to just make 34,000. I think given that it can mean that much business, it's absolutely worth pursuing. But you need to be a little more proactive in lending that kind of end user work too, where you're going right through the company to, to get that work and maybe bringing in a designer yourself if that's needed. So yeah, it's a wonderful strategy, but nothing is an end all, be all, slump.

Well, it sounds like a very. It's a good complementary strategy and just a way to diversify your efforts. But I agree with that.

But it was my think it was. But the wonderful thing, yes, it's complementary, but if you have it in place, it's fabulous because it doesn't require much maintenance. That's the key really. It's not like other strategies. The other strategy is I have to pick up the phone, I have to keep making those calls or sending out those emails or sending out those direct mail pieces. Once I have that relationship in place, I didn't have to do much other than deliver good solid work and be easy to deal with and clean copy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But that's the beauty of this thing is that it's kind of a self perpetuating machine.

Well, you have an ebook on this specific subject that I wanted to ask.

Funny you should ask.

Yeah. How long has it been out? Just a couple of years, really.

A couple of years? Yeah.

You've documented your systems, your tips, strategies, ideas into an ebook. It's a PDF format. Tell us a little bit about it because it just expands on what we talked about today.

Right. It's called Profitable by Design and it's about 70 pages long and it kind of goes through a lot of the stuff we discussed today, but obviously in a lot more detail and just answers all those questions as to what does it take to be that writer. And I even include samples of some work that I know that designers looked at and went, wow, this is great. That kind of cemented that relationship. So yeah, I think it's a good book and I've gotten a lot of great feedback on it.

You sent it to me when you first released it and I blurbed it. I thought it was fantastic. If you're even thinking about pursuing the strategy, guys, I can say this with confidence. This is a no brainer. You have to have this. It's really going to keep you from making mistakes that are hard to recover from.

Yeah, and it's just, it kind of lays out what you need to do to build this kind of thing and it's a very reasonable price and it's even more reasonable right now.

Yeah. So you're doing some special offer.

Yeah.

Tell us where people can grab it.

Yeah, well if you go to my well fed writer site, wellfedriter.com and it's PBD as in profitable by design. PBDpromo shtml. So wellfedwriter.com PD I'm sorry I'm going to screw this up yet.

Hey, you know what, we'll include a link in the show notes.

All right. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. So it's PBD promo. ProfitableByDesignPromo shtml. And it's 25% off until the end of October. And I thought, well, I thought I closed my email. That must be your email. Oh, I know what happened. It just sent an automatic one so it opens back up again.

Aha. Well, so we're pre recording this but you know, this will run way before end of October. So if, if you're interested, go check that out. You get it for 25%. I mean honestly, even at full price this is.

Yeah, at full price it's 40 bucks. At 25% off, it's 30 bucks. I mean, you know, yeah, no big deal.

It's a no brainer. But save yourself 10 bucks and go out to lunch.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. To an ethnic place. Of course there's not a chain.

And if you need any suggestions, email me, you know. Yeah.

Peter will tell you how to spend the 10 bucks.

And if you live in another city, I'll google, I'll find the right place.

Oh, he will. So cool man. Well, this is again, it's a fantastic e book. Thanks for. I'm glad you're doing that promo right now. It's very timely. So yeah, guys, check it out. Peter, thanks. Thanks so much for coming on today.

Thanks for having me.

I enjoyed talking about this and this is fantastic. When we get. Definitely got to do this again, man. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. I love talking to Peter. You know, as I mentioned in here we break bread every once in a while, two, three times a year. Love sharing ideas with him. This guy is, he has seen a lot. He's been exposed to a lot. He, he knows what works. And I tell you, this is as he mentioned, this is not a cure all. This is not going to solve every prospecting challenge you have. But I think this partnering idea could work very, very well over the long run and add a little bit of diversity to your prospecting mix. So I encourage you to consider how you can adapt this to your to your own prospect business and start taking action on it. I think it could, it could really diversify again your prospecting mix, give you bring business in the door that you'd never otherwise find and have a little bit more fun. I think it's fun working with others that are well aligned with your own values and business philosophy. So as a reminder, you can grab the detailed show notes to the separate@b2b launcher.com episode 26 and I had a couple of quick announcements before we wrap up. I've been hearing from a lot of you actually over the last couple of years, but especially in the last two or three surveys that I've done that closing the deal continues to be an ongoing challenge for you. So you know, I talk a lot about generating leads, prospecting and so forth in the episodes at International Freelancers Academy. But one area that I really haven't covered in depth has been the second phase of landing work, which is you have a live prospect. How do you close that deal? So what I've decided to do is put together a free live training on this very specific issue and it's going to be in a webinar format and I'm going to be doing that in early November. So I don't have all the specifics yet, but I wanted to give you a heads up kind of plant that seed and let you know to be on the lookout for that because I'll be announcing it very, very soon. So check that out. I think you're going to get a lot out of that. Probably going to be doing about an hour and a half session on that. Again, it's completely free. Also wanted to remind you that I've made my pricing guide available. Essentially the this is my master fee schedule with 32 different B2B or commercial writing projects, fee ranges that I charge for each, as well as some strategies and tips on how to use this information and how to adapt it to your own business. This is completely free. You can grab it@b2b launcher.com if you like it. I hope you'll help me spread the word and let others know about it by sending them to b2b launcher.com so they can grab their own copy. If you enjoyed this episode, I would be very grateful if you shared it with friends and the best way to do that is to email them a link to the Show Notes page which is again b2b launcher.com episode 26 or just use any of the social media sharing buttons you'll see on that page. And it would mean a ton to me if you give me a quick rating or review in itunes. I wanted to give a big shout out to some of the recent reviewers. Jeffrey Troll Munch, Mac Fearless Millie and Big Bad Boss Lovin. You gotta love that username in itunes. Big Bad Boss Loving. So thank you guys. I truly appreciate you taking the time to give me a quick review. It means the world to me. This brings us to the end of the episode. I am your host Ed Gandia. Thanks so much for listening and I hope you have an awesome day.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher.

Learn more@b2b launcher.com.

It'S not coming. You can't just keep beating on them. So you really need to be seeking out work directly. And the fact is that in my experience, 80% of the people that you call, that you cold call or contact, whatever, aren't going to be interested in your services, only 20% are. And of that 20%, there's probably only 20% of those that will need a designer. Of all of the possible projects that a graphic designer comes across, it's going to be a relatively small percentage that are going to need copy because they already have copy. They've got their own or they got their own writer for any number of reasons. But for me it ended up being like once or twice a month I would get a call for a project. Well, that's great. But once or twice a month isn't going to. What could that come out to be? That could come out to be 30,000 or $40,000 a year or more, depending on the client. But that's not enough unless your goal is to just make 34,000. No, I think given that it can mean that much business, it's absolutely worth a pursuing. But you need to be a little more proactive in lending that kind of end user work too, where you're going right for the company to get that work and maybe bringing in a designer yourself if that's needed. So yeah, it's a wonderful strategy, but nothing is an end all be all.

Well, it sounds like a very. It's a good complementary strategy and just a way to diversify your efforts. But I agree with that.

But it was my think it was, you know. But the wonderful thing, yes, it's complementary, but if you have it in place, it's fabulous. Because it doesn't require much maintenance. I mean, that's the key really, is it's not like other strategies. The other strategy is I have to pick up the phone, I have to keep making those calls or sending out those emails or sending out those direct mail pieces. Once I have that relationship in place, I didn't have to do much other than deliver good, solid work and be easy to deal with and clean copy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But that's the beauty of this thing, is that it's kind of a self perpetuating machine.

Well, you have an ebook on this specific subject that I wanted to ask.

Funny. Should ask.

Yeah. How long has it been out? Just a couple of years. Really?

A couple of years? Yeah.

You documented.