#032: Earning a Six-Figure Income by Writing for Small Businesses

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey everyone.

Welcome to episode 32 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a reminder, you can find detailed show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com Episode 32 I am really excited about today's show because my guest has achieved great success doing something that I constantly advise freelance writers not to do. And I'm talking about going after small local businesses. The problem I have with going after that market in small local businesses is that typically these entrepreneurs, these businesses have no budget for writing, for marketing. They don't get it. They don't get the value of great copy and great content. They don't see that value. And you end up spending too much time trying to educate them on the value and trying to sell the idea. And most of the time that time goes to waste because they still don't get it and they still don't hire you or want to pay the fees that you deserve. However, my guest today has built a six figure income writing for small businesses and she's done that in just two years, which is just amazing to me. And her name is Chandra Russell. She is a freelance writer based in Savannah, Georgia, and she works with local businesses to help them with their blogs, their newsletters, marketing content and social media. And while I'm still not a big fan of going after this sector of the market, I have to admit that Chandra has found a winning formula that works for her. So I would pay very close attention to what she has to say today because she is living proof that there is a way to go after this market and to not just go after it, but make it work and make a very good living doing it. So she's going to explain why she's decided to go after small local businesses, how she makes it work, how she finds the right kinds of prospects to go after, how she approaches these prospects, and how she gets repeat work and referrals.

So let's go right to it.

I hope you enjoy it.

Hey Chandra, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me.

So for people who don't know about you, and I recently heard about you for the first time at Carol Tice's blog, makealivingwriting.com, comma, which is awesome. I was really inspired by your story and everything that you've been able to do in a very short period of time. For those who don't know about you, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what kind of work you do and what kind of people you target.

Okay, well, I've sort of stitched together a business based on writing and that has grown into providing content marketing for small and medium businesses. You know, focusing on social media, newsletter writing, blogging, really any kind of communication that they need. And I still freelance, write mostly about businesses for local publications as well as national magazines, and also create digital products to share what I've learned on this journey and actually dabble in some fiction writing as well. So a lot of different income streams, which has been the key to being able to have this business and kind of sustain this lifestyle business that we've created.

Okay, so in terms of the kind of the traditional writing that you do for publications, I mean, what would you say, percentage wise, that is, of your income? I mean, is that a big part or small part?

It's smaller. You know, in a dream world, it would be a bigger piece, but I think I'd have to say about 25% is just more traditional writing. And, you know, I just published my first digital eGuide and that has been nice. You know, you wake up and there's money in your bank account, you know, that wasn't there the night before. So that passive income has been great. And I'm participating in NaNoWriMo right now, National Novel Writing Month. And I still, you know, I'm passionate about that side. But, you know, reality is that people pay less now and, you know, less per word. And I had to find a way to still be a writer, but also make a living. And so social media and digital marketing has been a really great outlet for that. And there's so many business owners that are just overwhelmed and need help and need somebody to write content for them. I just finished reading Utility by Jay Baer, and he talks about every single business, really is this content marketing machine now with all the needs for blogs and just constant communication with their target audiences. And to me, it's just words. You know, it's all just writing. And it's just been. I've been very fortunate to, you know, segue that into a business that has treated us pretty well in the. In the past couple of years.

I love that because you've done something that I haven't seen a lot of journalists do, which is you face the reality of what's going on out there and instead of saying, well, I'm doomed or I'm just going to work at McDonald's, I'm going to figure out a way, way to do what I love to do and diversify my income streams as well, to give me a little bit more security and to limit my risk. And you know, that's, that's super cool. I don't see that a lot.

Thanks. Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

So let's start there and let's talk about your commercial writing success because I think you started really getting into that not too long ago. Right. Maybe two, three years ago.

Right.

And you've had some really fast success in that area and you've done it mainly by targeting small and mid sized businesses. So tell me a little bit about that journey. Tell me a little bit about how you started and how you got to where you are today, where it's become such a big part of your income.

Yeah. So, you know, like I said, I really just started out writing for our local newspaper and rapidly just saw a business owner with a brand new business and they were trying to do startups and they had virtually no online presence, no Facebook page, nothing like that. I just kind of decided to reach out because as a journalist and all the writing I did, you have to promote yourself. So you very quickly understand Twitter, understand Facebook, all those different social media outlets because you have to self promote. So I didn't see why I couldn't apply those same lessons and things that I'd learned doing it for myself for someone else's business. So reached out to just one small business and worked for a low rate to start and saw some success and some cool things happened and kind of merged some PR service with that too, pitching guest blogs and things like that on behalf of him, just kind of escalated from there. And so I got a little bit of a reputation locally for having this one contact who told his friends and who told their friends and it just really kind of blossomed from there where I really networked my butt off and just really treated it as a business instead of hiding in my house. As a writer, I really was out there and interacting with the business owners that I wanted to work for and targeting the ones that I wanted to work with. That's the key too. And people that do value the content and maybe they have the Word blog on their website, but then they've never actually started it or they haven't posted in five months. Those were the kind of people that I thought, okay, they get it, but they just are so busy and so overwhelmed that they just need a little help. And so I kind of approached it that way. And people have been really receptive. And every single client that I have has a different story of how they got to me or how I got to them and just trying to deliver excellent content along the way and build a positive reputation, really locally, and then kind of branching out from there and, you know, getting more into regional, some regional customers. But with what I do, these clients really like to kind of have that personal, you know, because they're trusting me, they're handing over their passwords, and they're, you know, really trusting me to be the voice and understand their business from the inside out. So having that face to face has been kind of crucial, I think, for helping be successful.

So the couple things that I really like about what you said. There is one is it seems like you were able to leverage that first client to get in front of other prospects and that they kind of helped you out by maybe pimping you out or in talking about how great you are. So I want to hear more about that because I talk a lot about the importance of leveraging each win that you have and kind of trading up at each step in order to kind of exponentially grow your business. So tell me about how that worked and what you think you did right in order to go from that one win into two or three other wins.

Yeah, so he actually had a business. He was a grad student at SCAD with Savannah College of Art and Design here and just had a lot of connections in the kind of creative world, nonprofit world, done a lot of, like, startup pitches and fast pitch kind of competitions. And so just. He was actually a well connected individual that introduced me to kind of, you know, his sphere of influence. And one of them happened to be a nonprofit here, which is called the Creative Coast. And they work a lot with trying to make Savannah an attractive place to own a business, you know, relocate to, to start a business. And so getting in with them was really great because these business owners are going to them for advice, and if they need, they say, oh, I need a blog. Then I'm kind of right there. Top of mind for the creative coach to recommend me. So that really was kind of the start to integrating myself more into the business community here and having a little bit more influence. And then we had a couple really cool things happen for him. He was on Braze and Careerist. There was a top 20, 30 under 30 list that I had seen on Twitter and started following through his account and he actually ended up being on that list. And there was. President Obama's speechwriter was also on that 20 for 20. So that was a really cool. It was free and I didn't have to write a ton. It was just being aware on social media because he had absolutely zero time to spend on social media so kind of trusted me to do that for him and that was a great win. Something we could brag about a little bit. But from there I started offering social media audits and strategy because I just saw so many people doing it wrong or just doing it inefficiently and not being very effective with what they were doing. It kind of came from a place of wanting to just cold email people and reach out and say, okay, tweak this, this and this. And you're going to be so much more productive and engaging with your target audiences than you currently are. So there's been the teaching aspect as well where I don't always manage the digital marketing side for companies, but sometimes just give them tools and advice and you know, just a game plan for how they can personally do a better job with their social media and blogging and things like that. So that's been another piece where some small business owners that, you know, they don't want to invest a monthly, you know, fee to me, but they might a one time fee were just, you know, understand because some of these people, you know, they've been running a business for 20 years and then all of a sudden social media is such a huge part of what they need to do and they're not really equipped. So they just want some one on one time to understand different platforms or just overall strategy. And I've been able to do that as well.

All right, so the first then that's great. The first way you're fortunate enough that your first client happened to be very well connected and that led to some other very well connected organizations which just, you know, from that point you had momentum on your side very early on, which is fantastic. But then you also mentioned how you've also done some proactive outreach by prospecting via email to some businesses and organizations. You mentioned one thing that you did earlier in terms of what you look for, One was do they have a blog? Because that would mean that they get it, but you know, maybe they haven't updated in six months. What are the things do you look for for to see if this is a viable prospect. You also mentioned social media, but maybe they're not active. I mean, can you give us an idea? Because I mean, there's hundreds of. Well, there's actually millions of small businesses in the country. So how do you narrow this down? How do you know which ones are a high probability?

Well, for me, one I try to gravitate toward, I do gravitate towards tourism and entertainment related businesses because those interests me, naturally. And I love writing about travel. And so Savannah is a tourist destination. So I've been able to reach out to restaurants and tours and those kind of things that interest me and that have kind of a. Even though Savannah is a small town, really, they have a bigger reach because people from all over are visiting here. 12 million visitors a year. So they kind of have a little bit more of a budget even though they're small businesses because they're part of our tourism industry here. But as far as just kind of pinpointing other businesses that I've reached out to, you know, if they have the egg as their Twitter profile picture still, that's kind of like ding, ding, ding. You know, they're on Twitter, but they still have the egg profile. They haven't even put their picture yet, by the way.

That's what I actually look like. So Humpty Dumpty is my middle name.

Yeah. So, and then Facebook, I mean, it really kind of goes back to are they posting 10 times a day? Have they not posted in three months? You know, basically, are they doing some things wrong or, you know, ineffective that they could be doing better? And like I said, just having to be so active on it personally, then I kind of, you know, I just get a sense of what works for me and have a really good idea of what works for them. And we also have Visit Savannah as our social media for our tourism board. And they're really, really successful. They win awards and all this stuff. And watching them seeing the success they've had a lot of times with some of the tourism related businesses I work with, they can kind of replicate or mimic some of the things that Visit Savannah is doing and feed off that because they've had such large percentage of success. So as far as other businesses, it really boils down to just how active they are online in general. There's a website called getlisted.org and you can just plug in a business name and website or zip code and it pops up like a grade. So what your online grade is for being listed. And so sometimes to interest a client, a potential client, I will send them their score and I'll say, hey, you know, your Score right now is 51% on Getlisted. And we could get your score a lot higher than that. And that might be enough for them to start a dialogue with me. And we might, you know, we might meet for coffee or we might schedule a phone call. And sometimes, you know, sometimes it takes a year, two years to land someone. I know that sounds discouraging, but you never know what little touch out there that might come back later and be a paying client. So we actually just started working with a small company here that I had reached out to two years ago when they opened, and they were not ready to invest in digital marketing. They just wanted to get their business off the ground. But they remembered me. I kind of kept on their radar a little bit. Actually wrote a couple articles just for newspaper and magazines here about them and just in general. And so just I was slowly on their radar. And then finally a week ago, had a meeting now working with them. So just putting a lot of feelers out there, and it's all kind of paid off. And things have really, in the last six months especially, have really kind of solidified and picked up.

I love that. I'm a huge believer in email prospecting myself and keeping it very, very relev. So I love the fact that that's how you're. You're making your outreach. And it sounds like you look for something that is, of course, relevant to them and it's connected to what you do. And you gently maybe mention that, hey, you know, I can potentially help you in this area, but you do it in a way, and I mean, I'm just guessing, you tell me, maybe you do it in a way that doesn't come across as you're screwing up. And I can fix it.

Yeah, it is that delicate balance of pointing out somewhere they could just be stronger and not insulting them. I mean, obviously their business is their baby. And so there is that fine line of trying to be delicate. But I usually start out with something really positive, why I love their business. And actually, the very first client I landed, he had a really cool product. So I kind of lavished on a little bit of praise and then just came in with, you know, right away one or two just ideas or suggestions or whatever that I thought would be useful and, you know, try to show right away, give them some value, you know, even if, you know, at least they will walk away with a good taste in their mouth about me and positive, you know, feelings toward me and the email or whatever, however we meet.

Yeah, you're right. That's absolutely Key. And the other thing I loved about what you're doing is that you've decided to stay in a particular target market. And I think that adds so much credibility. Right, because you can list maybe a few clients that you've worked with and that right away sets you apart from somebody who's just kind of all over the map. So I would think that that adds some strength to your message.

Yeah, I think so. In the beginning it really was more of a free for all, where I was taking it, where I could get it. But then I've been able to narrow it down a little bit more where work with two restaurants and work with a food tour company and just things that are, like I said, travel and entertainment related, that are just kind of fun businesses. And to me I can get on board and be very passionate about their businesses because there's something fun that I like to do or that I would feel very comfortable recommending to anyone. I have worked with several clients, especially in the beginning where I was doing it, it was great, but it wasn't the perfect fit. And so I think in the beginning that happens sometimes when you just, you know, you're learning as you go and you might work with not your ideal client, maybe you know, right below that and then that gets you later on to those ideal clients.

So yeah, makes sense. What, what can you tell me about when you do engage with a prospect and you start some dialogue, is there a certain type of project that you maybe throw out there to just kind of get in the door or is it all over the place depending on what seems to be hot on their plate?

Well, what I've kind of started doing more is really giving them like the big picture. So I'll create a proposal that shows everything that I could do for them. And it probably is a little overwhelming at times, but I want them to kind of then, you know, pick and choose from that, what they actually need and want and then customize, you know, like a monthly retainer, what they actually need and want and then customize, you know, like a monthly retainer from there. So it's a pretty hefty proposal of social media, you know, content marketing and even a little bit of PR thrown in just to show all the different things that I'm capable of and I think painter from there. So it's a pretty hefty proposal in some ways. I know that they talk about niche and you need to be super focused, but I think sometimes with these small businesses, they want a one stop shop and they want to know that later on, if they have more of a budget for it, they can just use me and utilize me more. So I feel like that's been really effective for me. Social media, you know, content marketing, and even a little bit of PR thrown in to, you know, kind of throw it all out there. And then typically we pare it down and we, we talk about what they actually need in this moment. But the door is already open for more later. You know, I have one client I'm working with right now that really wants to start a blog, you know, in 2014. I've been working with him for eight months and just to show all the different things that I'm capable of. And I think in some ways, you know, I know that they talk about niche and you know, you need to be super fun really mostly on social media. And so, you know, there's that that door is open now for, for me to do even more for them. And as they grow and their budget grows, then I, you know, I get more responsibilities.

Okay, that makes sense. So you know, you give plus, you know, I guess by showing them everything you can do, they're aware of some things that maybe they didn't think you could offer and now that comes up. Okay, so are there any types of assignments that you like best? Any particular types of projects that kind of in your sweet spot? I mean, you mentioned a lot of them, but I'm curious to see what you like best.

Well, I really like working with newer businesses. It doesn't have to be brand new, but young businesses that are just starting out and really like I said, are just overwhelmed with all the things they need to do and there's just such a great potential for growth and just getting them out there as much as focus. But I think sometimes with these small businesses, they want a one stop shop and they want possible. So that's kind of fun because I don't have to fix mistakes or anything that's been made in the past, but it's more of just helping them shape their online voice and who they are and what their company stands for and the stories behind their company and talking with people sometimes know that later on if they have more of a budget for it, they can just use me. And they don't realize how fascinating they are because they just see themselves as they get up and they go to work and they go to bed, but there's the connections and then the charities they are involved in and just all the different stories that make up their Persona and who they are. So I really love kind of Teasing those out and helping lay the groundwork for long term success for these small businesses because many of them, they're going to be owner operators for the long haul. And so if I can help get them off on the right foot and carve out their place online, it makes me feel really good and I'm making a positive impact for them.

How do you position yourself with these businesses? How do you position yourself and your services?

Utilize me more? I feel like that's been really effective for me to throw it all out there and then typically we pare it down and we talk about.

So they're really seen as an investment and not so much of a cost because obviously these, especially the startups, very cost conscious cash flow is an issue. So how do you do that?

Well, it kind of depends. For example, just going back to the blog example, sometimes it's just hard facts. Once you have 31 blog posts, then talk about what they actually need in this moment. But the door's already open for more later. I have one client I'm working with right now that really you get 30% more traffic to your website. Those kind of things, those outside studies and kind of emphasizing those, that's actually been effective several times for me to do that. Like I said, trying to connect with businesses that already seem to get it and just don't have the time to do it. So most people I approach are not negative from the get go. They see the value. And I can tell too from the initial email if they're asking me questions and want to start a dialogue, then there's somebody that I would like to work with. That's kind of been my way of weeding out what wouldn't be great for either side. You know, you don't want a negative experience for myself or for the business owner.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious what you would tell someone who's listening right now and saying, you.

Know what, this wants to start a blog in 2014. I've been working with him for eight months.

Exactly like exactly what I'd like to do.

I really mostly on social media and so that door is open now.

Personally, I'm a big proponent of the corporate market. I love the corporate market, but I know a lot of people are intimidated by it or they don't like it. That's not their thing. And maybe they're listening right now thinking, wow, that's exactly what I would love to do. Those are the types of clients I'd love to work for. What, what advice would you give someone in that situation?

Well, I think one just to start thinking of themselves as a business because really, you're equals. You're both small business owners. You're both have that entrepreneurial spirit. And that's number one. I think that instead of saying, I'm a writer, there's more to it than that. And then, like I said, the networking has been really crucial. I joined the chamber, and I'm part of a female entrepreneur group. And for me to do even more for them, and as they grow and their budget grows, then I get more responsibilities.

Okay, that makes sense. So, you know, you give.

There's just all these. My hands are in so many different little pots for networking. And, you know, that's been really helpful when I feel like my name is out there enough, especially locally, that it's been really positive where sometimes I guess.

By showing them everything you can do, they're aware of some things that maybe when somebody.

I meet someone and they already have. Oh, yeah. So and so told me about you. So there's kind of that name recognition that's been really great with all the networking. But really starting just with one business that you admire, you know, that that was the key for me. Like I said, for very first client had a really cool product, and I.

Knew that I didn't think you could offer. And now that comes up.

Mm. I could get on board about it and, you know, share his message and be passionate about. Because I thought it was really interesting. So your favorite restaurant in town or your, you know, favorite store, whatever, approaching them, especially if they need the help. And you can see that there's some things that they can improve on. That's a great place to start. And working nonprofits, you do have some budget sometimes. And especially the nonprofits that have connections. I mean, with all these different business owners, that was huge for me to make that connection. I worked for them for a very low rate.

Okay, so are there any types of assignments that. That you like best? Any particular types of projects that kind of. In your suite?

Almost basically charity and that, you know, that proved to be really helpful and just kind of some credibility, you know where. Okay, so she's doing this for them. And, you know, it just kind of. That goodwill really helped launch things for me.

Yeah. You know, when I was starting out, I was. I did some pro bono work for an association here in town that was very target rich. So a lot of prospects were members, and a lot of great things came out of that just from the regular networking events and some other things. But there were a few things that came out of just doing a couple of pro bono projects for them internally. And the executive director hooked me up with the CEO of a software company. And I mean just introductions like that that are invaluable and all because they understood that I was there to help them. I was doing it. I mean you mentioned a lot of them, but I'm curious to see what you like best.

Well, I really like working with in.

A very sincere way and they just really like the work too. That was the other thing. They saw my work and they thought, you know this guy, let's try to help him out.

Yeah.

You know, if you do it for the right organization, the right group, the right people, I think it could work really well. So I agree. And I'm curious, how do you stay up to date with social media and content marketing developments and news and case studies? You know, how do you. How do you stay on top of all those happenings? Any advice there?

Yeah, I love convince and convert Jay Baer's blog and website and he has the newer businesses, it doesn't have to be brand new, but young businesses. Social news of the day. One piece of one social thing that goes out in a newsletter and I read both of his books and Jason Falls no bs. Social media was really the first book I read for social media purposes and following him online and really just that are just starting out and really kind of watching. So depending on the client, keeping an eye on the big guys, what are they doing? What's Nike doing? What are these really huge companies doing? Because the truth is that the small business can play big now and customers actually expect they're used to these bigger companies responding within 24 hours. So the small businesses need to respond within 24 hours. That's kind of trickling down from the top. So watching what they're doing and just kind of learning from them and just being aware and if there's a new vine comes out, I'm going to jump on immediately and try it out. Anything that happens like that, I'm going to try it out for myself personally and be the guinea pig. And then what works best and what's most effective I'll then use on behalf of my clients as well. Like I said, they're just overwhelmed with all the things they need to do. There's just such a great potential for growth and just getting them out there as much as. So it's just so much experimenting and trying things and not being afraid of looking foolish I guess basically trying everything you can and seeing what sticks. And if something is not working, then spending a lot less time on it and really channeling energy into the platforms and things that are being affected.

Yeah, you know, I found Social Media.

Examiner possible, so that's kind of fun because I don't have to fix, you.

Know, is fantastic for case studies. Right. It's, it's so great to see how some of these businesses are using these tools to grow their audience and develop greater loyalty. And there's a lot of creativity, no.

Mistakes or anything that's been made in the past, but it's more of just.

Helping them shape at play there.

Definitely.

Well, Shonda, this is fantastic, really. I'm inspired by your story and how quickly you've been able to develop this income stream, especially in your local market, which is not something that I see a lot of people do. For those who want to learn more about you, where should they go?

My website is the best place to start. It's ShondaRussell.com and I'm very active on Twitter. So my Twitter handle is shawnarussell. And you can find their online voice and who they are and what their company, the digital products and books I'm working on and books that are available on my website as well.

Yeah. And you have a new ebook or E guide out, right? Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, it's called how to Become a freelance writer in 30 days and more. Targeted for people just starting out that don't have very many clips or people that have full time jobs but want to have another income stream and a side hustle and can use their expertise in any industry and write on the side it stands for and the stories behind their company and talking with people. Sometimes they don't realize how fascinating they are because they just see themselves as they get up and they go to work and they go to bed. But there's the connections about that as well. That's been really fun. And Carol Tice's blog that you found me on that was kind of geared towards that. And I'm hoping to write a follow up, which would be the next level and be about entrepreneurial writing. You know, kind of what we talked about today, turning writing into just more than, you know, some articles, but really using the writing skills in a lot of different ways.

Oh, that's super. That's super. And they can learn more about that E guide right there on your website.

Yes.

Super. Hey, Chandra. Well, again, thanks so much. I appreciate you sharing these ideas with us. It's been fun.

Thank you, Ed.

Well, folks, there you go. Just more proof that I don't have all the answers. Chandra is living proof that you can go after small local businesses and still make a good living doing so. But just like with any strategy, you can't just throw spaghetti at the wall. You really have to do things right.

You have to work smart and you.

Have to know when and how to pivot, if you will, as things change, as the situation changes, charities they are.

Involved in and just all the different stories that make up their Persona.

As you're getting feedback, you're seeing what works and doesn't work and you have to be smart about that.

So take her advice to heart.

There is a market for small businesses.

But you have to know how to do it right and how to make changes.

As you move through this process, you can grab the details, show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com forward/episode32 and I wanted to give you guys a reminder that early registration for my next B2B business launcher group training closes in just a few days. We actually start on January 7, but the early bird discount and registration is going to be up very soon this.

By the way and who they are. So I really love kind of teasing those out and helping lay the groundwork for long term success for these small businesses.

For those of you who are not familiar with it, this is the group training program where I'll teach you step by step how to launch a successful and profitable B2B writing business in 10 weeks or less. It's a very hands on program. Lots of one on one time with me, lots of mentoring, very small group environment. It's fantastic. The successes that are coming out of this program have been amazing and I'm excited to offer an opportunity to get in early, secure your spot before it sells out and save yourself 500 in the process. Plus grab some pretty cool goodies. And you can learn more about this Early Bird discount and this opportunity by visiting B2B launcher because many of them.

You know they they're going to be owner operators for the long haul and.

Early bird.

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Yourself with these businesses. So how do you position yourself and your services so that they're really seen as an investment and not so much of a cost because you know, obviously these, especially the startups, very cost conscious cash flow is an issue. So how do you do that?

Well, it kind of depends. For example, just going back to the blog example, sometimes it's just hard facts. Once you have 31 blog posts, then you get 30% more traffic to your website. Those kind of things, those outside studies and kind of emphasizing those, that's actually been effective several times for me to do that. Like I said, trying to connect with businesses that already seem to get it and just don't have the time to do it. Most people I approach are not negative from the get go. They see the value. And I can tell too from the initial email, if, if they're asking me questions and want to start a dialogue, then there's somebody that I would like to work with. So that's kind of been my way of weeding out what wouldn't be great for either side. You don't want a negative experience for myself or for the business owner?

Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious what you would tell someone who's listening right now and saying, you know what, this sounds exactly like exactly what I'd like to do. I, you know, I personally, I'm a big proponent of the corporate market. I love the corporate market, but I know a lot of people are intimidated by it or they don't like it. That's not their thing. And maybe they're listening right now thinking, wow, this is, that's exactly what I would love to do. Those are the types of clients I'd love to work for. What advice would you give someone in that situation?

Well, I think one just to start thinking of themselves.