#037:The Hard Truth About Passive Income: How to Find and Develop a Profitable (and Realistic!) S...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey everyone.

Thank you for joining me for episode 37 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find details, show notes to the show by going to b2b launcher.com episode 37. I am really stoked about today's show because I finally get to talk about an issue that I know a lot.

Of you have questions about.

And I know you have questions about it because I get your emails and many of the surveys I've done over the last couple years point to this being one of kind of the hottest areas of interest for many business writers. And it's the area or the topic of passive income streams. I find that many business writers are naturally attracted to this idea, probably because developing passive income streams requires writing copy, requires having great copy, great content. And as writers ourselves, we can create that content, we can create that copy for ourselves. So having that skill is one of those things you don't have to outsource or hire out, which could be cost prohibitive for a lot of people. And so I see a great interest on the topic. What I see though, is a lot of frustration, a lot of anxiety because a lot of you aren't really sure what, what a realistic path to getting there might be. There's obviously a lot of hype and a lot of trash out there when it comes to this topic. There's a lot of conflicting information and there's, there's a lot of just an appearance of this thing being easy, setting up passive income streams as being kind of an easy kind of kickback and let it do its thing, and it's anything but that. Personally, I've been developing passive income streams since 2008. So for me, this is near and dear to my heart because I understand the desire to do this. I understand the challenges and frustrations with developing passive income streams. And you know, there are definitely ways to do this right and a lot of ways to do it wrong. So to address this issue head on, I've brought in an expert, someone I really, really believe in, I really enjoy. And I think you're really going to like him and the information he's going to share with you. His name is Mark Mason and he is the host of the late Night Internet Marketing podcast which you can find at late night IM, as in Internet marketing late night IM.com mark is a true student of the Internet marketing craft and specifically he's a student on how to develop online businesses when you have the challenge of a full time day job or a full time mainline freelance business. So unlike many other teachers in this Internet marketing industry, Mark has a full time job. He is a well paid, very busy executive at a major company. So what he does is he runs his online businesses at night and during the weekends. And that's great because having that specific challenge and those kinds of constraints force him to be smarter about what he does and how much time he spends building these sidelines. I've also find that Mark has very realistic approaches to launching and growing an online business. And there's no hype in the message that he has or what he teaches. So in this interview, Mark and I are going to talk about the most viable passive income models today. When you already have some sort of full time obligation, be it your writing business or your full time day job, whatever that might be. And specifically we're going to talk about how to get started, the best models to get started with, how to keep it simple and create a viable foundation and how to find the time to set up, maintain and grow these passive income streams. I hope you enjoy the interview. I'll come back at the end of.

It with some announcements. Hey Mark, welcome to the show. Great. Great to have you here, man.

It's really great to be here. Thank you so much for making time for me. I'm excited.

Yeah, man, this is, this is a, such a wonderful topic and I'm glad that you agree to come on because you know, you're one of the few people out there who I think just have a very clear understanding about what it takes to develop and grow passive income streams and communicate that all the time. You're very transparent about this and I think this is what this audience really needs.

Yeah, part of the reason I got involved in this business was I got tired of these guys who sell. I made $47,000 in my first 22 minutes online and you can too. It drives me nuts. So yeah, that's, that's the angle I approach it from for sure.

Awesome. So just to kind of set the stage here, this interview I think will be very valuable for those of you who are out there freelancing full time. You're making a decent income, but you're looking to explore opportunities and developing passive income streams. Or maybe you have a day job, you're looking to kind of launch your freelance business, but then at the same time or somewhere along the way, develop a sideline of some sort. So in either of those scenarios, you have constraints, and the biggest constraints, I think, are going to be time, because either way, you're going to be working your main thing and you're trying to figure out how to fit this in and where to start and all that. So let's start from the beginning, Mark. I mean, I guess really the first question, because there's so much information out there in this area, are there still opportunities to develop realistic passive income streams?

Yeah, I think the short and very direct answer, with no caveats, is absolutely, yes. The thing that trips people up sometimes is the best way to do that, and the most effective methods and techniques for doing it can change from time to time. But the truth of the matter is online business is growing and growing and growing, and there's always opportunity to take advantage of that. And so, yeah, the opportunities are still there. And I see new people starting every day that make their first dollar online and get very excited, and I get excited with them. And so, yeah, it can still happen. No question about it.

Okay. Okay, so that's good, and that's what I figured. But, you know, it's. It really, it's worth asking because I see people all the time who say, you know, I had this idea and I decided to kind of put it on a hold because I saw someone else do something similar. So I know people are wondering, gosh, you know, is the market kind of crowded?

You know, I'll tell you about that, Ed. In general, I think this is true in all kinds of business. But if you have an idea and you can't see anyone else making money in that space, that's probably more of a concern than a good thing. What usually is the case is that there really aren't that many truly novel, unique, and never heard of before ideas. And really the best test for an idea, particularly in the. In the kind of thing that we're going to talk about today, making money on the Internet with passive income streams is do you see people already making money? Because if you see that, that's market validation. You know, there's money to be made because people are doing that already, and that indicates that that might be a good place to look.

I couldn't agree more. It's counterintuitive, but it really is a good litmus test. So let's talk about. I want to address this head on, because I'm a big Critic of kind of the definition, the passive income. The word passive is taken lately, but how passive is passive?

Yeah. So of course it's going to depend on the business model. Right. So in every kind of passive quote unquote, passive income stream that I know of, at the very least you have to do the work to build the asset that generates the income. You just take as an analogy, you just think about investing. You can argue that if you invest $1,000, that the interest income that you get off of that investment is passive income. The bank pays you 1% these days because interest rates are so low and you, and you don't have to do anything for that 1%, but you had to do something to make that $1,000 in the first place. Well, with Internet business passive income, the same thing is true. You may actually be able to create a business that runs almost completely by itself, or runs by itself except for maybe some outsourced work that you hire someone else to do for you for the business. But in order to get it to that point where you're actually, you've got something that can create income, you've got to do work. And sometimes you've got to do a lot of work, depending on what you're building.

I couldn't agree more. And in fact, that leads me to my next question. And I know this is another one that's hard to answer, but if you're advising someone who's just now looking into this and you're trying to set the right expectations in terms of time required, and let's say that you have a quite, quite a bit of time every week to put into this, and you're committed, what would you tell someone in terms of how long to expect before this thing becomes viable, starts generating a decent amount of income, where you're covering your costs and you actually have some money left over.

Yeah, I mean, you're right. It's a hard one to answer because again, it depends on the business model. But if you're doing something that involves a lot of sweat equity and you've got, as you say, you've got time. So let's say you're creating, let's say you're building websites and you're running ads on those websites and you're looking for ad revenue, then you don't have a lot of costs. You've got website hosting and you've paid for a domain name which might cost you $10. And then you've done the rest of the work yourself. You've installed WordPress, you've done the theme flight for your audience. You've done all the copywriting, for example, so maybe there's 20 pages of great content on the site, but since you're a writer, you just spewed that out one afternoon. So you've created all this great content and now you're doing the business of promoting that website that also doesn't have to cost a lot of money. And eventually traffic starts coming and people either start clicking on your ads to generate revenue, or you are able to sell ads on a website to generate revenue, or perhaps you are doing some affiliate marketing on that website to generate revenue in that sort of situation. The fastest I ever see that be successful is measured in a small number of months. And sometimes it can take something closer to six months or a year to really have that go cash flow positive. Where you create a website out of nothing from whole cloth, you create valuable content that people want and then people come to that website and you are able to convert that traffic into sales or ad clicks or whatever. That's going to take you something between a month and a year to recognize that. And it's going to depend on your sales. Sorry, it's going to depend on your skill level and it's going to depend on how good the market is that you've chosen and sort of to some extent your capability of choosing winners when it comes to picking markets.

Okay, so then let's talk a little bit about markets and different opportunities out there. I see a lot of people who are very attractive to the concept of passive income streams, a sideline an online business. They're sold on the idea, but they're not really sure where to start. So if you're thinking through, you know, what could I do in this world, where do you start? How do you. And then how do you separate the winning ideas from the bad ones?

Well, yeah, I mean, what you're talking about is. There's a couple of ways to answer this, but let's start with where do I start? So fundamentally, if you're going to talk about having a passive income business on the Internet, you've got to decide what the business model is going to be. That's the very first thing. There's fundamental things that you can do. But the two, certainly by far the two most popular things that you run across are websites that leverage their content to place and sell ads. The most popular of those being ad programs being AdSense, which is a Google pay per click type of advertising model. And the other thing that you see that is very popular is affiliate Marketing where you might create a website around a product topic, and on that website you might advertise or recommend or otherwise endorse products that if people buy them, you get a percentage of the sale. Those are the two most typical business models. And I usually recommend those business models especially to people that are starting out because they take almost no capital investment to get started. You don't have any of the customer service type problems or product fulfillment type problems that you might have if you were selling physical products online. You don't have to create a product like you would have to do if you were doing some kind of information product marketing. You just have to get traffic and convert that traffic to clicks or convert it to sales of other people's products and you get paid. So that's usually what I recommend for people to get started.

Gotcha, gotcha. And then you mentioned the other two, which are a little more advanced and more involved where you're selling either information, which would be a digital product or course or what have you, and then maybe sounds like the more advanced and more complex would be you're actually selling physical things that involve real fulfillment of a product.

Sure, absolutely. And there's lots of ways you can do that. You can warehouse the products yourselves or even in some cases people make the products themselves, or you can source the products out of China or other places and have them drop shipped. There are companies that specifically are set up in wholesaling products and drop shipping them directly to customers where really you appear to be the product vendor, it's your website, but you never actually touched the products. And so there's lots of ways to skin those cats. But all of those kind of businesses, Ed, they have a lot of moving parts. And for somebody who's trying to get started, there's already a lot of of stuff they have to learn just about getting a website up and running that mean that if you add in all this stuff like taking orders and accepting credit cards and handling customer service and drop shipping and lines of credit and all this stuff, it makes them really hard to get started. So what I usually recommend is something like affiliate marketing, because that allows them to learn the very important Internet marketing pieces without all of the other business logistics weighing them down.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I'm thinking, hey, let's wanted to kind of give a lay of the land just to talk about those as well. But I agree with you. I didn't start out that way. I started with a more complex stuff. And man, I tell you, it took a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of money. I made a lot of costly mistakes. That wasn't a lot of fun.

It can be painful. And that also can be for people who give up and fail. That can be a recipe for losing a substantial amount of money. And the truth of the matter is with something like affiliate marketing, you can do it in such a way where really all you are risking is your time, which is very valuable, but you don't have this added pain of having a huge credit card bill that you have to explain to your wife and never produced any revenue, that kind of thing. It's a lower risk approach.

Let's talk a little bit about those first two models then, if you don't mind, which is the website where you have content and the content drives traffic, and then you're just trying to sell ads, either directly or as you mentioned, via a program like AdSense, and then the other one being the affiliate marketing. So can you give us maybe a couple of examples and maybe some initial steps people to look into if they want to explore those?

Yeah, I'll give you a really good example of one that I often share on my podcast. I built a website around an obscure topic once for the purpose of having this exact sort of discussion. That's a website that I have about a farm implement called a corn sheller. Now I'm sure you're asking Mark, what in the world is a corn sheller? Well, as you might guess, a corn sheller is an old kind of antiquy farm implement that is used for separating corn from the corn cob and the husk. So you end up with kernels of corn. These are hand cranked devices. And the reason that I built this website, I built it on a dare from a friend of mine who wanted me to test out some software, some Internet marketing software of his. And that software spit out this keyword, keyword being something that you type into Google when you are searching for something. And his software did analysis that said corn shellers are a wide open market from a search standpoint. So what he meant was if I built a website on corn shellers, it would be very easy for me to dominate the rankings in Google for that topic. So because we were testing his software, I built that site and I monetized that site with affiliate listings of ebay products because it turns out that people who are looking for information on corn shellers are typically people who are selling or buying antique corn shellers. They're collectors and they are looking for information about corn shellers. So I created a site that had information about the history of a corn sheller and different kinds of corn shellers and so forth. And then I hooked that site up to ebay so that when people visit the site they see corn shellers that are currently for sale on ebay. And if they buy one of those corn shellers, I get a commission. It's really that simple. That site truly meets the definition of passive income. I built that site over the period of a few weeks and I did a few other things to it maybe a couple of months later. And for the last year and a half, that site has been generating between $30 to $50 a month. Now that's a small amount of money, but it wasn't something I picked. It was a site that I built on Adair. But it truly meets the standard of passive income because I don't touch that website except to cash the checks.

Yeah, you're right. I think it proves the point. Hey, that model works. And you could do it with something as mundane as corn shellers.

And the guy's software worked too, because I've used that software many times subsequently. And it proved the point that if you pick, if you do the market research correctly, you can find these opportunities where Google will send you free traffic out of the search engine and you can then monetize that traffic.

Now, do you do or do you recommend updating the site with new fresh content such as a blog for instance, in order to keep it up and make sure that that traffic keeps coming in?

I normally certainly would, but I have absolutely zero interest in corn shellers. And so in this case I have not. But certainly one of the things, Ed, that I normally recommend for people that have a day job that they are already doing and they are trying to build this little passive income stream on the side, maybe they want to pay for a new car or pay off a medical loan, or they want to save more money for retirement, or they want to grow a business that is eventually big enough that they can transfer and transfer their their focus to this passive income stream. Whatever they are doing when they are first getting started, usually their priority is something else. And so I recommend that they choose a topic for their very first foray into this kind of content marketing that they are actually interested in. That's one of the things that will help them maintain the site, maintain focus on it long enough to it be successful, make them want to work on it at night instead of watching the latest rerun of NCIS or whatever it is that they watch on television at Night because that's the kind of commitment it takes to do this on the side. And so corn sellers really doesn't meet that for me. And I judge the market for this sort of thing as I don't see a lot of additional revenue potential there for this. So I haven't invested any additional effort into it. Having said that, it still ranks even without the fresh content. I think if the competition were more aggressive in that space, I would need the fresh content. But there are so few people writing about corn shellers, as you might imagine, that it hasn't been a big issue.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you found a great opportunity there, which doesn't require the constant updating. Yet for most people, especially if they go with something that they're passionate about, they at least enjoy, they may not be as lucky from that standpoint. So you recommend updating it and adding new fresh content. Right. That will look good in Google's eyes.

Yeah. And really, I mean, I think the. Right. It does have that effect. But what I would typically say is create more and more value for the readers that you are trying to attract. It is true. What you said is true. The result is that it looks better for Google. But if your motivation is to create that content, to make it a better website for the user, users that you are trying to attract, you will get a lot better result in the end. If you are going to create content anyway, you might as well create content that is great for users. Because ultimately that is what Google is trying to do anyway is they are trying to find the best websites for their searchers and someday they are going to get really, really, really good at that. So you might as well have a really, really good site when they do.

Yeah, man, I couldn't agree more. You know, there's nothing more annoying that you're trying to research something and the first two or three results on the page, you click on them and it's just full of junk. And you could tell that it's set up solely for the purpose of trying to get an affiliate click of some sort and, you know, trying to make a buck and there's really nothing valuable there, or at least nothing I didn't know already.

Yeah. And you know Google's human review criteria that they have, when they have their fleet of human reviewers review websites, they're specifically looking for that sort of thing.

Yeah. Okay, so that's a great example and that is something that you've done yourself. And I guess the other model kind of follows the same format anyway. Right. So this would be Non affiliate links necessarily. But you're trying to get ad space, whether it's your own ad space that you sell or adsense.

Yeah, and let me comment on that. I would happily run AdSense ads on this Korn sheller website. But if you look at the availability of ads, AdSense ads in the corn sheller space, no one is buying those. There's no market there. So you can place AdSense ads on the site, but they're not worth much and sometimes they don't even. There's not even any ads to place. And so when you are picking a market that is one of the things you want to consider is what am I targeting with my content? Am I targeting ads or am I targeting product conversions? Are there products in this space that will convert well, yes or no. And are there ads in this space that will convert well, yes or no. In the case of corn shellers, there are not any AdSense ads that will convert, but there are ads for ebay products that convert really pretty well. As I say, that site just chugs along and makes between $25 and $50 a month. I think it had one gust of wind, up to 75 bucks one month. It just depends on what's going on in the corn sheller marketplace, I guess.

Such an active place, right?

Exactly. You can imagine some commodities exchange with all these guys running around screaming, trading corn sheller futures or something like that. But I don't think it's quite like that. But you get the idea. If you go to ebay and you search for corn shellers, you'll see that they're out there and people are buying them and selling them.

All right, so that leads me to another question. And this is, this is one that I think a lot of people skip. We talked a little bit earlier about. Look at your interest, look at things that you are at least interested in. And if you're passionate about it, even better. But let's say you come up with two or three things. What measure, what litmus test should you apply at that point? Just to see, hey, there is a potential here, there is money being exchanged. You touched on a little bit of that in your answer to the last question, but can you expand on that a bit?

Yeah. So the super simple thing to do is to go to Google and type in whatever it is and see if there are paid advertisements for products on the left hand side of the page and on the top of the page. If people are spending money, and sometimes these things can be very expensive. If people are spending money to advertise in Google that means that they're making money. So that's always the first sort of very simple test is are there products being advertised on the Internet? And the easiest way to check that is Google and if so, what are the those products and how do they, does it make sense that I would be able to sell those products and what are the commissions for those and so forth. So that's one thing. The other thing to do is to look in places like Commission Junction, which you can find@cj.com or Shareasale or places like that that are these affiliate affiliate houses that they're clearing houses for affiliate products and see if there are products being offered in that space. And usually with places like Commission Junction, not only will you see that there are products being offered there, but on a lot of the products they will tell you how well they convert, how much people are earning on average per click and so forth with those products. ClickBank is an another one. If you're interested in selling digital products, they'll tell you what the average earnings per click is for that product. Now you have to be careful with that because you don't know that's an average across all people who are selling the product and you don't know what kind of traffic is represented by that. But you know, pretty quickly if somebody's got a product out there and the average earnings per click is a penny instead of a dollar, then you kind of know what you're dealing with.

Gotcha. How important would you say niching is in this business? So you know, my interest is, let's say in, I don't know, brewing beer at home. Home brewing, there are millions of sites on that. How important do you feel it is to be more specific on your site?

Yeah, again it depends on your business. But in general for these passive type of income sites, it's almost always a trade off. Usually on these passive income sites you're not buying ads because that's not passive. That's a very active thing. If you're having to manage an ad campaign, that's something that you're doing every day. So for passive income, you're usually looking for organic search searches that are coming from Google and Bing and they're coming to you for free. The niching a lot of times depends on what the competition is for the searches. So as you say absolutely correctly, brewing beer is a huge broad topic that a lot of people are interested in and there are hundreds of thousands or millions of websites about brewing beer. But if you get down to brewing India pale ales with the highest possible alcohol content or something like that, then you're starting to niche down into something that's a lot more narrow, that you could have some hope of being the top website. So what you're looking for is a combination of attainable rankings, competition that you can actually handle versus sufficient number of searchers, enough people in the market to make it worthwhile. So that's kind of the balance that you're trying to strike. If you go too broad, it'll be very difficult to compete. If you go too narrow, if you go to very, very, very narrow, you'll find that no one is actually searching, searching for that. And so even though you may have the number one ranking, if you have the number one ranking for something that no one is searching for, that doesn't do you any good either. So that's one thing to consider. The other thing I would say is the other problem with broad searches are the search term doesn't tell me what the person is looking for. If you just search for brewing beer, I don't know if it's. If you're trying to figure out whether or not it's legal to brew beer where you live, or you're looking for a brewing kit, or you're looking for a new recipe for brewing beer. So I don't know what to give you for that search because it's so broad. Because remember, Google is going to return a page, not a website. But Google gives you a page on a website. Sometimes it's the home page, but it's a page. So it's much better from a market standpoint. And I think this is something that your audience particularly will understand very well. You need to have a market to message match on your search results to maximize conversions. So much better than brewing beer is best beer brewing kit. Because I know if you're looking for the best brew beer kit, you're probably in the market to buy a beer beer brewing kit. And I can give you some information about that directly and match my message to you specifically.

Gotcha. That makes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. And I mean, especially when I've been looking and I've been searching for things online, I want the specific information right, Because I think we have like no attention span anymore and we're spoiled. We're used to getting exactly what we need and we got about one or two seconds and if it's not there, you move on.

That's right. And all of those kinds of ideas, capturing attention, holding people on the page, calling people to action, Converting all of that stuff, your audience has a huge advantage over the general population because a large number of the people that listen to your show are professional writers of some sort. And so they understand these ideas about capturing attention, about how to write headlines, about how to use graphics to hold attention, and all these kinds of things that are traditionally marketing concepts that writers generally, especially copywriters, understand intuitively. And so that means these sorts of websites, these content websites that are really calling people to take some action, they can be very powerfully managed by people that know how to write.

I couldn't agree more. And that's why so many people in my audience are attracted to the idea, because they know they already have the writing capability. So you take that out of the equation, then there's not a lot left where some people are starting with none of those skills. And it really is an uphill battle.

Your audience will also appreciate the fact that to get really good, to outsource really good writing is expensive. For me, as a content marketer, whenever I have to hire a writer, I can't go to the Philippines for that. Generally I need native US English language speakers, and good ones are expensive. And so if you're a writer, and that's the sweat equity you can bring to the business, you can really get a lot of leverage in this sort of space.

Well, let's talk a little bit about that, specifically the time required and how to, how to do this. When you run a full time freelance business where you have a day job, you're very knowledgeable about this because you have a full time day job. So what advice could you give the audience in terms of how to make this time? Because everyone's, oh, I don't have time. Where do I find the time?

Yeah, so this is a topic I talk about a lot. So I'll tell you two things. I don't like the phrase I don't have the time. I think a more accurate phrase is I'm not willing to prioritize this high enough on my list to make time for it, because we all have the same 24 hours in a day. So the question is, are you willing to put this high enough on your list so that you devote some time to it on a regular basis? And it's not a judgment question, Ed. I mean, you may have something, you may have things in your life that are very, very important going on where the truth of the matter is, everything that's going on in your 24 hours is more important than starting a side business or whatever. But for most People, what you'll find is they don't have time because they're not willing to prioritize this over watching TV. Or they're not willing to go to bed 30 minutes later than they normally would, or get up 30 minutes earlier, or skip lunch and instead work on their business while they eat a sandwich. You know, it's the choices that we make. So that's, that's the first thing. How serious are you? The second thing I would say is that from a time management perspective, the key thing that I tell people is once you decide you're going to do this, do something in your business, in your side business, every day, don't let it go a day without doing something. Now, that something may be only five minutes. You may only spend 10 minutes on the Internet researching what your next topic is going to be that you're going to write about. Or you may only spend five minutes flipping through a magazine looking for a product. Or like most people, you may start off thinking you're only going to spend five minutes, but then you may actually get interested and spend an hour. But whatever it is, if you do a little something every day, it does two things for you. One is it keeps your business top of mind, which is important to keep you motivated and keep you moving in the right direction. The second thing is that over time, a few weeks, a few months, when you integrate up all that time and add it all up together, all of a sudden something that you didn't think you had time for is a 20 or 30 page website that's generating organic traffic and revenue. And if you just sat on the couch and said, oh, I don't have time for that, or I don't feel like that, instead of just making that 10 or 15 minute effort every night, you have something. The bottom line is if you work consistently at things, you will like the results.

I couldn't agree more, my friend. I couldn't agree more. There's no way I could have started what I started if it weren't for that. And let me tell you, there many times when even today, I just don't feel like working on some things. I just push myself, really. The first five minutes are the toughest and then you get into the swing of it, next thing you know, you put in an hour and you've gotten somewhere.

Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, I think if you can couple that with a pretty good prioritized list of things that are needed, even if you know you're not going to get to some of those things for several Weeks, you just look on the list and try and pick something off of that that you feel like doing on those days that you don't feel like doing the three most important things and so you're tempted to do nothing, pick the fifth thing because it's fun and do it. By the time you do that over and over again and you develop a habit to work on your business, you can really make some amazing progress. Because there's one thing I can promise you. The days will add up into weeks, and the weeks will make months and the months will make years. And when you get To December of 2014, if you've been working a little bit on this new business of yours every day for a year, I promise you you will have made progress.

So I have one last question for you, and it has to do with focus related to what we've just been talking about. But if someone listening is already thinking of some ideas or they've had some ideas already, what's your take on kind of starting two or three things at once in terms of a sideline, or just doing one thing at a time and getting it to a certain level and then moving on to the next one?

If it's really a sideline and you're really already doing something that's paying your light bill, two or three more things, most people will not be successful doing that. It's much better, particularly on this kind of thing, that starting a small website. It's not like it's a five year project. So you can get this from start to finish if it's the very first time you've ever done it in a matter of weeks or months. So doing multiple things at a time, my experience in watching people has been that that is going to cause more failure than success. And so I recommend that you focus on one thing for a while, run that out and see how it does. But it doesn't mean you're stuck with that forever. It just means means that you've got enough focus on it to run it to something where you can tell what you've got. That's my recommendation on that. I mean, I'm not a hard, I don't draw a hard line. My buddy Lynn Terry, who is an affiliate marketer, she has this phrase that she uses called from start to profit. And her position is, is when you start something, you stay with it until it's profitable. And while I appreciate that that's a little more aggressive position than what I'm taking, but she also makes a heck of a lot of money doing what she's doing. So maybe she's got something there.

Well, so I wanted to ask you where listeners can learn more about you because you have a lot of resources on your website, especially for people who either starting out or just kind of growing their sideline.

Yeah, I'm very excited about.