#050: Writing for Ad Agencies and Marketing Firms: Two Freelance Writers Share What You Need to ...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Well, hello everyone and thank you for joining me for episode number 50 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find detailed show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 50 and I am really, really excited about today's show because it's on a topic that I get approached about quite a bit. And it's really the topic is the whole issue of working with agencies, the ins and outs of writing as a freelancer for agencies and marketing firms. You know, things such as what are the biggest pros and cons of working with agencies? What are the types of writers that are best suited for working with agencies, the best personalities? What do agencies look for when hiring a freelance writer? What would you say are the best ways to attract and land agency clients? How can you avoid seeing some of the nightmares that can come along with working with agencies and marketing firms? Things such as payment issues, disagreements, just crazy deadlines and expectations. And you know, the thing is, I've done some work for agencies, but it hasn't been a big part of my business. So rather than give you my take on these questions, I wanted to bring in someone who hasn't just worked for agencies, but has actually built the freelance writing business through agencies and marketing firms. And in fact, I've brought in two guests for this week's show, Karen Stargates and Shanna Kirp. These are two seasoned freelance writers who again, built their businesses through agencies and marketing firms and actually still write for some of them. And what I love about them is that again, they still do some quite a bit, in some cases, in the case of Karen, quite a bit of agency work. Shanna actually runs a small digital marketing agency herself these days, so she has some great perspective from the agency side, which is invaluable. And you know what, they're super ladies and I think you'll agree when you listen to them, very willing to share their experiences and insights, easy to listen to and extremely helpful and just sincere in their willingness to help other fellow freelance writers. So with that, let's go ahead and get to it and I'll come back at the end with a few announcements. Well, welcome to the show and I am so super excited Here to have two wonderful guests to address such an important topic and it's something we haven't really addressed in the show before. And I have Karen Stargates and Shanna Kirby. Ladies, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for having us.

Well, let's start here. I'll make sure to include some information about you guys in the show notes, but why don't you start by introducing yourselves, telling us a little bit about your business and just kind of like where you came from and what you do today. Let's start with Karen.

Okay. My background is as an advertising copywriter. And between my early beginnings and today, I have indulged in quite a few other careers and came back to copywriting about 10 years ago and launched Stargate Business Communications in 2009 and returned to a very vastly changed landscape.

Oh yeah, yeah. Yes, it's changed quite a bit, hasn't it?

Yeah, and it continues to, but it's been a challenge and an interesting one.

What about you, Shana?

Well, I am the owner of a digital marketing agency called Grasp. This agency sort of evolved after several years of freelancing. I started freelancing about three years ago, actually. Before then I was the director of marketing for a digital agency in Tampa and I did a lot of marketing strategy, web copywriting, planning business websites and that sort of thing, as well as growing that agency. My husband and I had a dream of full time travel. We weren't exactly sure how to make it work. We looked at English teaching abroad and actually applied to the Japanese exchange teaching program. Didn't get accepted and weren't exactly sure how we were going to make our travel dreams a reality. And one day Kevin said, well, why don't you just go out on your own and do marketing consulting and writing? I said, I don't know if I'm confident and experienced enough. At the time I was only 25 and I just wasn't sure if I had what it took to be a freelancer and business consultant. But he really encouraged me to and so I started my own consultancy and now we travel 100% full time and we live in Barcelona, Spain. And I have clients all over the world that I work with and we have merged with some others who were freelancers before. And now we have a digital marketing agency and work together and we consult with other businesses and companies to help them grow their businesses through creative design, innovative marketing and innovative technology. And so we like to say that we put the free in freelancing. We have a very free lifestyle. We're nomads. We move all around and travel and do freelance work, agency work, and that's how we make our living.

That's very cool. Very cool. Yeah. So it's the good free of freelancing, not the free. I'll do it for almost free.

Yes. I don't do it for free, that's for sure.

All right, so this is really great because you guys have had different experiences and have been at different sides of the table when it comes to actually going after agencies, marketing firms, and so forth to launch or grow your business, and you continue to see it from different angles. So we'll get some really interesting perspectives here. But let's start with, I guess, what types of. In your opinion, what types of freelance writers or what types of personalities are best suited for working with agencies? Because this is not the right model for everyone. And let's start with Karen.

I would say the top attribute would be flexibility. And by that I mean the ability to work on an array of accounts, whether it's consumer or B2B, or a little bit of both. That or flip side, having a very specific expertise in a particular vertical that the agency requires, which makes you very valuable. For me, my personal experience, I've found that that flexibility, the ability also, which may not be that usual, to write for both advertising and in public relations, which I do a lot of, has served me well because I'm able to offer a broader suite of copywriting services to the agency clients. There are digital marketing firms that I work for that would never know to broach the topic of a press release for a client that might be introducing a new service and the like. But I can go to them and say, you know, I can write a story pitch about this or a press release about this, and we can send it out and see what happens. And that would never have occurred to them because it's not what they do. So flexibility has. Has really been great for me.

That's some great points. So you become somewhat of an advisor in a way.

Yes, and I have actually, in some ways, and I know that they turn to me for advice about those kinds of things that are a little out of their wheelhouse. So that's been great.

What do you think, Shanna? What has been your experience?

I think when it comes to working with an agency, you have to remember why an agency would hire you in the first place. And that's because they want to service their clients and make a profit off of you. You have to be someone who can deliver value and economic value to your Agency clients. So you need to be someone who first understands what your value is to an agency and can communicate that value confidently so that you become an asset to the agency. And the second thing is to make sure that you are someone who can handle a little bit of being in the background because most of the time you're not going to get the recognition that you want. Maybe when you work with an agency because they're going to take credit for their work, not you, you're working for the agenc, kind of have to be able to sit on the sidelines for those particular accounts and you might not be able to put that stuff publicly in your portfolio. You might not be able to use it as samples and examples in order to get other work. So you just have to be someone who is okay with not being in the limelight.

Right?

Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's not for everybody, right?

Right.

Yeah. I have to be willing to be a bit of a journeyman and the sideman, not the lead singer.

Yeah, that's a good point. In fact, that's a good segue into my next question. So let's talk about the pros and cons. Just to give people a really good high level flavor of what this is like in Karen, let's start with you. What would you say are kind of the general pros and cons of going this ro?

The pros I would say are that you have a nice selection of work, a really nice variety of assignments. So it's never boring. If you've established some good long standing relationships with agencies, the work just comes to you, you don't have to look for it. So that's always kind of nice. The flip side of those things, those aspects are that prioritizing assignments can sometimes be tough. There are weeks when I feel like I'm. Well, I really do. I have five part time jobs. You have to be very organized and you have to be able to juggle and prioritize sometimes on the fly and push something to the side that you know can wait for that emergency that another agency may need in a hurry. And the fact that you are billing them at an agency rate and not your private client rate can sometimes sabotage your wallet a bit. But if you have a good flow coming in, you know, it's all about the volume.

So I'm curious what have, what's been your experience in terms of what that spread is? You know, we Talking about take 30, 40% less than what you would might be able to charge for the same amount of work to A direct client.

It depends on what it is. Sometimes like on an hourly rate it would just be 20% less, but on flat rate assignments it's often dramatically less. If I am, I do a lot. I happen to do a lot of ghostwriting for expert byline articles and blog posts and the like. That's where I see the biggest discrepancy in what I would charge a private client over what the agency is willing to pay. Because then of course, they have to then mark it up to their client and it starts to become a little onerous for them. So my advice would be to find agencies with very high paying clients who are less price sensitive. But that's where I see the biggest downside, actually. But I love the freedom and I love the variety. I love being a trusted partner. And as Shanna said before, bringing the value to the agencies, there's a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction involved with that.

What about you, Shannon? Do you have anything to add there in terms of pros and cons?

Well, she pretty much mentioned all of the same things that I was going to say. I'm just reiterating. The benefit is that you don't have to sell. So when we talk about the personality of someone that really might jive with working with agencies is going to be a writer who just hates selling and you hate having to go out and look for work. You want the work to come to you. And that is really one of the great benefits is that once you build that relationship with an agency, they are responsible for getting clients and doing the selling and then they just pass that work on to you. And that's a great benefit for the person who doesn't like to sell. But as you mentioned, Karen, agencies oftentimes look for you to cut your rates so that they can mark your services up and they can make money off of you. So some of the ways that I try and get around that is by either offering value in some other way maybe. And what I mean is trying to package my services in a way that isn't about hourly rate. It's more about providing a service and then they can charge whatever they want for it. We're not talking about hours anymore. We're talking about a package or feature or set price. Feature or set price package. The other thing that I recommend about rates is because one of the downsides of working with an agency is that you don't get to take credit for the work and put it in your portfolio. Especially for those of us who are writing for the web and we want to Put those websites in our portfolio. One thing that I've done is to offer two different rates and say this is my rate as a white label and you can basically, I'm working for you, it's your portfolio item and that's a normal agency type of relationship. And the other option is this is a slightly lower rate, but I get to put the stuff in my portfolio and we can have a shared portfolio item. So if you give me permission to put this in my portfolio of work, then I will give you a lower rate. And that has been successful in the past.

I love the creativity there. And I'm curious, what would you say is the spread there? I mean, are we talking about 10, 15%?

Yeah, I'm just talking about a 10 or 15% spread.

And it's usually well received when you propose it.

Yeah, it depends on the agency. And some of them are willing to let you put stuff in your portfolio and some of them are worried working with super high end clients and they're not willing to do that and they're willing to pay the higher price for it.

Gotcha, Gotcha. So let's talk, since we're talking fees, let's talk a little bit about something both of you have already mentioned this hourly versus flat project fees. And I'm curious as to what your experience has been in terms of what types of agencies prefer what model or what types of projects typically dictate one or the other. So Karen, let's start with you.

I don't know that it's one over the other, but I've found for the agencies that I work with that specialize in websites and Internet marketing, they want a flat rate. So I'll offer them a per page rate that of course includes one round of revisions. If they happen to be doing a brochure, I'll quote them a flat rate. There are other agencies that are more global marketing, advertising agencies. I'm just on straight hourly rate with them and they never ask about it. There's a public relations firm that I freelance for. She expects me to keep a timesheet and bill for her by the hour. They would never ask for a flat rate. I guess it depends on how they're billing their retainers for their clients. So it really depends on the agency, but. So some of them are fine with just keep the timesheet, tell me what it was, others for certain projects. And I find that it's mostly about websites and brochures. Want a flat rate, Want a project rate. So of course you have to go back into Your experience tool chest and say, how long is this going to take me? You don't want to mess yourself up too much. So, you know, so I've developed fees around that.

What about you, Shanna? What's been your experience?

Well, since becoming a digital marketing agency myself, I only have one client that is an agency at this moment because I have just a lot of private clients right now. But this particular client I have on retainer, and I've had them on retainer for several years, and that's my preferred way to work. So again, we're getting away from the hourly rate and we're moving to a monthly commitment. And I'm just basically available to them during the week, and I take on writing projects and finish them, and I bill them the same thing every single month. And I really like that relationship. I take on projects not just for their clients, but also for them. I help them with their branding, marketing, their blogging, their campaigns, creating mini ebooks for them, white papers for them so that they can generate leads and create a nurture process for closing deals, as well as working with their clients. I do that under just a flat rate retainer. And so that's. And I try and keep that. Right. So, like, that retainer is based off an amount of hours I'm going to give you per week, but it's not always the same amount of hours. There's a range and it varies each week depending on what the objectives are. But the real thing is just to make sure that you're delivering value, making sure that it is economically valuable to your client so that whatever you're charging them per hour or whatever your retainer is, at the end of the day, they're making more money as a result of you.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm assuming. So if you're. They understand what your hourly rate for that monthly retainer is. That's what it's sounding like, kind of.

You know, not really.

Which I think is fine. I try to do the same thing with retainers. I try to kind of hide that, sweep it under the rug. Because I'm trying to focus on the value. Right. And I'm trying to focus on all the benefits they're getting from going to this model. But I'm wondering, are you typically working against, you know, certain number of hours you're. You're putting that internally at least?

Yeah, internally I usually have a range of hours that I aim for each week or each month to give them. But again, it's not about the hours as much as about the value. Right. So I could, like be spinning my wheels on something and I'm going to spend more hours with them that month, or maybe I'm just rocking it and I'm just cranking out content like nobody's business and I'm going to take a break that month.

Gotcha. Okay.

So again, yeah, it's about the value, making sure I deliver value. And this particular client is very happy with the value that I bring to his company. So there's really no question. And he knows what my private rate is and he knows he gets a better deal. So that's all that matters.

Now, because you do work, I think both of you actually work with other writers under you in different capacities. But what is your expectation when you're hiring others? Now you're becoming kind of the agency, right? You know, in terms of what you prefer and how you prefer to work from a. From a fee basis, hourly versus flat.

For, for me, it depends on the assignment. And there I will usually state to the subcontractor what, you know, the hourly. You know, of course, they need to know what they're getting paid per hour for the job. So I'll tell them, or I'll say this is. I'll just say $100. That's a nice round figure. You know, I'm going to pay you $100 to write this brochure copy. Can you do that? Yes or no? Or, you know, I need you to do this copy editing job. It's 45 an hour, whatever. Okay. Don't spend more than three hours on it. Give them a little bit of a parameter. That's worked out pretty well.

Okay.

Yeah, I do take those approaches as well, depending on the different project. But again, a lot of times it's about value. And I'll say, hey, I've got this project. How much is it going to cost you? Or how much is it going to cost me for you to design the COVID of my ebook, for example? This is a project I can remember just happened recently. They came back and said something like 750 bucks or something like that. I said, thanks, I'm sure you're worth every penny, but that I do not value my cover that much. I'm going to have to find someone else. And I did. So again, it wasn't about the hourly rate as much as it was as the value. The value wasn't there. If I was designing an ad that was going to go out in front of 100 million people, maybe then I start to value that more. And it might have taken him the same amount of time, but I'm willing to spend more because I value that project more than this other project we were talking about. Again, it's all about delivering value. I talk a lot to my freelancers that I work with about value. The value of this is this, or hey, I can sell this for this much. That means I've got this much for you. Can you make it happen in that a projected amount of money and they'll come back and say yes or no. And we really don't talk about hours a lot. I've been really trying hard for the past year or so to get away from the conversation about hours. And there's some struggles because it's so embedded in the agency world to talk in hours. So it's kind of hard to get away from it. But I've been really trying to train myself as well as my business partners and the freelancers that we work with to get away from this hourly thinking and move more towards either selling specific products and features for a flat fee, specific fee, or doing the value based billing up front. Value based billing. I don't mean in the rears. I know there's a lot of talk about value based billing in the rears. It's not the same in what I'm talking about. Does that make sense?

Absolutely, absolutely. That's great. And by the way, I'm a big proponent of the same thing and moving away. There's situations where look hourly. Unfortunately, because of the variables and the situation and who's involved, you just can't get away from it completely. But I think there are many opportunities to move away from that model and we don't see them because we're kind of pre programmed and preconditioned to only look at it a certain way. And I think if you can start shifting some of your business into what you ladies are talking about, I think that's a great opportunity to start creating a more profitable and enjoyable freelance business. So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about attracting agency clients. You know, I think each of you has different experiences there and how you've landed your agency clients. What would you say are some of the most effective ways at least for you to attract and land the right types of agency clients? And let's start with Karen.

I think LinkedIn has been one of the best tools ever. And I get a lot of queries from private clients as well as agencies through LinkedIn. I also network like a madman, like a mad woman. And that's helped along the way. Participating in the LinkedIn groups though, posting really good quality content to your social networks, that catches people's attention and that's been a very strong way for me to do it. Following targeted businesses on the various platforms and chiming in when it's appropriate helps you get visible and try. I'm like thinking now of who do I work with? And a lot of it's actually come through networking.

Now when you say LinkedIn and you mentioned LinkedIn groups and contributing content and all that, do you Proactively network on LinkedIn? I mean, are you doing something beyond those things?

What do you mean by proactively?

Well, like are you actually reaching out to specific individuals within LinkedIn because you see a real good connection or sometimes.

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Hey, see what you're doing? Would you like to meet for coffee? If they're local or want to talk?

Yes, Gotcha. Okay. What about you, Shannon? What's worked for you?

So when it comes to attracting any type of client, you are really trying to ask and answer the same questions. Who is the decision maker at the agency? What is important to them? Why do they make hiring decisions and how do I get in front of them? Taking a very targeted approach to that specific decision maker is very successful in terms of getting their attention. I'm a marketer, so I think of things in attracting visitors and converting leads. If I'm going to attract them and convert them, I need to have a very targeted approach to trying to work with them. For example, if you're a freelance writer, instead of just having a website about yourself and how you're a freelance writer and these are the types of freelance services you provide, why not have a landing page written specifically for agencies and talking about the problems that agencies have when they're hiring freelancers, how freelancers can be flaky sometimes and they might miss deadlines and it can be really frustrating to find a super talented freelancer who understands, understands the agency relationship and how you're different and having a form or phone call or phone number so they can immediately connect with you and contact you. I think that really goes for any type of client you're trying to attract is having that very agency specific focus. Actually the agency that I have on retainer right now, they actually do production work for other agencies and we set up very specific material just for agencies, talking about the services that we provide for agencies. And that goes a long way in communicating with them because you're not saying, hey, I'm just a freelancer looking for any type of work. I can get you're saying, I am an agency partner and I specialize in working with agencies. I understand what you're looking for. I understand the problems you have had with freelancers in the past. And this is why I'm different, and this is why you should hire me. And that very targeted approach has been very successful, at least in my experience.

Yeah, it sounds like you're getting away from. From the kind of the body shop mindset. Right. And approach, which is like, look, you need a body. You need someone to just write this, and you don't want to deal with it. To one of, look, I understand you and your world and your requirements and what you look for and what you're probably experiencing when you work with other writers. And this is why I'm different.

Right. Because I've been on both sides of the table. Right. I've been a freelancer, and I have my own agency now, and I ran an agency before. I've worked with lots of freelancers and freelancers. Whether you're a freelance designer, freelance copywriter, freelance developer, all freelancers are different, but very similar. And there seems to be a generalization for freelancers to be sometimes not very dependable, or a lot of times freelancers can get you halfway there for your project, but then it needs a lot of revisions or it needs to be spruced up a bit to get to the standards of the agency. It can be really hard for agencies to find that right freelance partner and that right freelance fit. And if you can offer something different, not just in your talent, but in your business relationship, how you talk to the hiring person or the person who's giving you assignments, how you deliver your invoices, all of those things. If you can set yourself apart, be dependable, reliable, and provide value, agencies are going to want to work with you. Because it really is hard to find creative freelancers who also understand all of those other business aspects as well. When you work for an agency, it's beyond just talent. It's about your entire process and relationship with the agency, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it's being a real professional. Right. It's someone who takes pride in what they do and delivers and does what they say they're going to do. And, you know, I want to kind of bring something else that Karen had. Actually, I think you kind of threw this in there as a part of the answer to another question, Karen, which was, you know, when you have specific industry expertise, domain knowledge, certain experience in a very specific type of project, these are things that, you know, you should leverage. Right. So Talk a little bit more about that in terms of how that works in attracting the right clients.

Well, I think agencies, the agencies that I work for are very small and either have no writers or have need for over, you know, have the overflow work. And where I. That's where I come in. So for them to know that they can hand off an assignment or a client in some cases, because there are times when I'm managing the project, to be able to know that the person who's on your team has specific skills that that client needs or that they can win the account because they know they have somebody who can work on that account is of extreme value to them. So having those specific skills, I mean, like I think I mentioned before, the fact that I also work in, not only in advertising but in public relations has proven to be well worth it for some of these agencies. Clients where they never could have broadened their offerings in the way that they did by saying, oh, Karen can do that. So having those specific skills, the skill set and the understanding past experience definitely come in handy or something I can bill for and something that they can then bill for. For me also being, I will diplomatically refer to myself as a mature writer, having had some world experience, life experience, and client experience, they also know that they can turn around and have, you know, I hate the term, but client facing, you know, have me client facing, have me work directly with the clients. They've sent me to client meeting to deal with it on my own, knowing that I'll come back and report back on what's going on and that I'll handle things that may even get a little difficult with aplomb and diplomacy and have the agency's best interests at heart, because after all, that's where my bread and butter is coming from. Those are soft skills that have translated into value for both sides of the relationship for me and for the agency. But certainly if you're taking on a client that is in a very niche market, I can write a lot of things, but there are some things I can't. So if you're taking on a client that's talking about neuroscience and you need a medical writer who has done nothing but 15 years of pharmaceutical writing and neuroscience research, that's the person you want to work on that account. So that's where certain skills come in and. And life experience.

Well, and vice versa. Right. If you have those skills, you know, if you have domain expertise in certain areas, and you should leverage those. Right. And don't just go after, you know, don't Just open the phone book and start with EAs. Right. Be very mindful about which agencies you target and go after those that seem to have clients or go after clients in some of these industries or they do some of this work that you're an expert in.

Yeah, I mean, I happen to live in New Jersey where it's the land of pharmaceutical agencies and big pharma. So a lot of the jobs that you see posted in our area are for people with healthcare and pharmaceutical backgrounds, copywriting backgrounds. It's not a niche I'm going to fit into so well, you know, so I'm not going to look at those. I can write consumer product stuff pretty easily, but if it's going to be, you know, sort of a pharma to pharma kind of thing, I'm not your gal. But if you have a consumer product, a lifestyle product, something else, you know, I can, I can talk to you about that because that's where my experience lies. So, you know, consumer packaged goods or whatever. So, yeah, you need to leverage what you know, especially if there are agencies that specialize in certain verticals. Definitely go for it, go after it. Unless you want to broaden. You know, you're running your portfolio and you're bored to tears and you need something else to do.

Well, it's. I think it's one of those things that I see when I've seen other freelance writers go down this road. They rarely leverage what they know and the experience they have. And they seem to take more of a. Well, you know, they need writers. So let me, let me just start randomly and haphazardly where I think, you know, be a little more strategic about it. If you're going to take the time, do it right, you know, go where you have the highest chances.

Right, right, right.

I mean, I probably write a website a week. So, you know, agencies that work on a lot of websites slot me in pretty easily, you know.

So let's talk a little bit about managing expectations and avoiding potential pitfalls. You know, one of the things that I hear a lot about from, from writers who have had experiences with agencies and maybe limited experience is that, you know, there's typically some communication problems. Things like, you know, I thought that I was going to get paid, you know, at a certain time and I didn't. And then I was told I was going to get paid when they got paid or, you know, I thought this was a deadline and now they're rushing me. Now they wanted earlier, never ending revisions, those sorts of things. I think you can Kind of pile them up into one heap. And I'm curious to see how you guys have dealt with these issues and prevented them in the first place. And let's just go ahead and start with you, Karen.

Contracts, contracts, contracts and contracts. And really spell it out what your expectations are and have them sign it. Have, you know, both of you have a signed copy. If it's an agency that you're working with on an ongoing basis, it's certainly a less formal experience. But I am constantly chasing people for money. They never have to chase me for the assignment. I always make a deadline, and if I'm running into a problem, I'll let them know with ample notice. Or I'll speak to the client about it. But somehow, depending on the agency, I'm often on the bottom of the PayPal because they're waiting. Yeah, I know how it works. Waiting to get the money from the client. Then we have other bills to pay and, you know, until I become a squeaky wheel. So I think that it needs to be very. And this is not the case overall. Most agencies will pay me within two weeks because they need me. But this is an important point, by the way. It's an important point and they say that very clearly. You're one of the first. We pay because, you know, we know we need your services. Oh, thank you. You have to be very clear up front about those things and really set it up and establish your protocols, especially when it comes to the workflow. And I'm finding this with small agencies that are sort of in growth mode and they may not have established their own workflow designs or methods. I'm able to actually suggest some things that I know have worked at other agencies or that I've helped implement elsewhere. And I'm dealing with this now. We have a problem with a website that now has to be rewritten because the client has completely changed her mind. But what I need to make sure is that the agency has made the client understand that that's an author alteration and that there's some issues attached to that. And I don't think that they realize that, but I think just establishing protocols, whether it's making sure a design and a website layout and design or approved first before the copywriter even gets assigned to it, that avoids a lot of hassles later. Whether they understand that proofreading is going to be extra or whatever it is, certain protocols and workflow items need to be really hammered out up front and everybody needs to be in agreement because otherwise you're at their mercy. And it becomes a nightmare.

Yeah, Shanna, what's been your experience there?

So I try not to conform to the agency's process, and I sort of force anyone who works with me to adopt my process. I know that sounds kind of rude, but every agency is different. And so I say, if you want to work with me, these are my terms. 50% I collect up front. You don't have copyright to the material until I receive payment in full. And so they can't use it unless they pay me and they get a maximum two rounds of revisions. If I'm doing a website, there's a word count for each page. Sometimes I go above and beyond. So I'm not always going to say, okay, every page can only have this maximum number. But I also during. I have a very. I have a very specific process when it comes to writing. And they get a first draft. If it's a website, they're going to get it by section. So I might do the about section and then the services section and then the product section. They'll get it by section and they will get to review at once, and they need to send me all the revisions back at once. And I won't make revisions until all of that section has been reviewed and revisions have been sent to me. And then that's the first round of revisions. So if they're saying, hey, I really want to see those changes, blah, blah, blah, I'll respond back and say, I'm still waiting for you to finish that section before I move on with round one revisions or whatever it is. And then the same thing again for round two. And then once they've hit round two revisions, I'll give them back, this is your final copy, and that's it. They're supposed to send their final deposit. And I usually don't hand over work or final work, you know. Right. So sometimes I might just send them a PDF so they can't copy it and paste it for the final until they pay me. I really don't have a lot of problems, though. I think, like, a lot of it has to do with that, setting up those expectations. When you first meet with the agency and client and saying, this is how I operate. And I found that most people respect that. You know, I just haven't had a ton of problems with collecting money from agencies. I've had some problems collecting money from private clients, but everyone. And at the end of the day, everyone has paid me. I don't have any outstanding invoices or things that have gone on for months. I just haven't really had that problem. And maybe it's because I have that upfront agreement and I don't do anything super legal or fancy. I have a lawyer now that we've become an agency, and she's been getting on me a little bit about making sure that I have a very formal contract. But I also feel like that's part of the relationship, too. It's like people trust me more because I'm not so legalese with my agreements. It's more like a bulleted list, you know, this is how it works. This is how much it's going to cost. You have to send me this deposit, sign on the dotted line.

Boom.

Yeah. So there's two parts to this is what I'm hearing. There's the having that conversation with a new client, letting them know how you work, what your expectations are, and then there's the, you know, having an actual agreement, even if it's in plain English, reiterating that and having them sign it. So there's something you can always point to if there's a misunderstanding.

Right, right. Something that you can point to is really important. But also, you know, I've had someone actually tell me, even though it was in black and white, I don't care what your contract says. That is not what I understood. And, you know, what I learned from that experience was that just because it has been written in black and white doesn't mean that they understand. And to really not just send something over to them and have them sign it, but to really talk about the key points of the agreement and make sure. I want to make sure you understand there's only two rounds of revisions. I want to make sure you understand this is how the revision process. Process works. I want to make sure you understand that there's only 500 maximum words. And just sort of reiterating that verbally as well and not just doing that signed contract.

Makes sense. Makes sense. Well, let's go ahead and wrap it up. And I have, I guess, just one more question for each of you, and we'll start with Karen. Any parting thoughts or advice to someone who maybe hasn't explored this path and even after this interview, is really encouraged to do that and they want to pursue agencies and marketing firms.

Well, I would say if you were a junior writer just starting out, you know, go to the large established agencies, you know, go to a New York agency and cut your teeth there. If you are a seasoned writer who's looking for a lifestyle change or perhaps has been forced to have a lifestyle change, if that's the case again, as we've said a couple of times, go after the places that you can add the value to, that you can walk right in and handle those accounts and become a revenue, you know, as I often say in my 30 second elevator speech, I'm going to provide an income stream for small agencies. The other thing is to don't, not to burn any bridges, especially in, you know, in your market if it's small. I am now working on an account at one agency that I worked on five years ago at its other agency. And we were all delighted to be reintroduced and reconnected. But you can imagine how uncomfortable that would have been had things not gone well the first time around. So just make sure you're always putting forth your best and understand that it's a small world and it's, you know, when accounts collide, they will. And I happen to know a lot of people and I find that we're all very interconnected. So you have to just be really careful about how you're handling the accounts, how you're talking to people and understand that it is going to come back to you in either a positive or a negative way.

Well, that's great advice. That's great advice. And Karen, before I get to Shana, where can listeners learn more about you?

My website is www.stargates S T A R R gates.com youm can find me on Twitter estellarcopy, you can find me on Facebook, you can find me on Pinterest, you can find me on Google, all sorts of places. So look for me either under my name or my business name. I'm sort of a mishmash of both. Online LinkedIn too.

Perfect. Shannon, any, any parting thoughts or advice?

Yeah. So my, my advice to freelancers of any type, copywriters, designers, producers who are trying to get in the door with agencies is to first figure out what that value is that you bring to the agency and get in front of a mirror and practice describing it and explaining it over and over again until you exude 110% confidence. Because your confidence is what's going to sell you and making sure that you personally understand that you are valuable. And that confidence is what is going to help you when you're.