#053: Building Up the Courage to Go After Bigger Clients

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Well, hello everyone and thank you for joining me for episode 53 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find detailed show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 53. You know, if you want to generate a high income as a freelance writer, you're not going to get there by doing lots of three, four $500 projects for small clients. You might be able to get there and you know, you can, you can crank out that kind of business and that kind of volume, but you're going to burn out very, very quickly if you tried doing that, and I know a lot of people who have tried that path and it just, it doesn't work. It's not sustainable. If you want to earn a comfortable six figure income and more importantly, if you want to have the freedom and the flexibility to enjoy the fruits of your labor, you have to start working with bigger clients. You have to bring bigger clients into the mix. I'm not saying they all have to be big, but you do have to have one or more bigger clients consistently. One big client alone can easily replace 2, 3, 4 even more smaller clients. Plus they're often easier to work with. They have more work for you. They're not as price sensitive as smaller clients. Not always, but all else being equal, they're, they're usually not as price sensitive. Plus as you do more work for them, become, you become much more efficient. And if you continue to charge mostly flat fees, you end up doing the work in less and less time, which means your internal hourly rate goes way up. So why do so many freelance writers avoid larger clients? Why don't they do this? Why don't they put, pursue them? And I think it boils down to one word. Fear. Sure. You know, we, we tell ourselves, no, it's other things, you know, that it's just hard. I don't know how to, they're not enough. I don't have the qualifications, what, whatever. At the core, the biggest reason we don't go after biggest fish is just plain old fashioned fear. And what I wanted to do for this episode is bring someone who's recently gone through this. You know, you, you can hear it from me, but it's been a while since I've been down that road. And even though it's still very, very fresh in my mind, I wanted to bring someone who's recently broken through and pushed past those fears. And you'll hear today from Mary Rose McGuire. She's an Ohio based freelance writer who again, recently overcame these fears and insecurities to go after, not just after, but land, her largest client ever. And in this interview, she's going to explain how she did it, how she overcame her fears and insecurities and what she's learned about herself in this process. I think you're really going to enjoy this, and I think anyone can benefit from what she shares here, because you know what? Big clients are all relative. We're all at a point where we can go after bigger fish, better clients and higher fees. So let's get to the interview, and I'll come back with some announcements after that. All right, so I'm sitting here with one of my longtime listeners, Mary Rose McGuire. And, Mary Rose, it's a pleasure to have you here.

Oh, pleasure to be here, Ed.

It's, you know, Mary Rose reached out to me the other day with a, with just a very, very nice note and a wonderful success story. And it's, it's kind of neat because just recently I had another listener say, you know, you should really publish more success stories of people who are actually getting value from your actual podcast. Not just general success stories, but people who are using these ideas and implementing them and getting results. And like, within a day, I got this note from Mary Rose, and it was just great timing. I said, you know what, we got to do a show. We got to do a show. So thanks for coming on.

Well, thank you.

So today we're talking about kind of this is more of a mindset conversation. Right. You know, Mary Rose had great success recently with winning a very nice project. This is way above, I think, right. What you've typically done so far. And yes, what struck me was, you know, you needed to shift your thinking in order to feel confident going after this client and asking for the fees you were gonna, that you asked for. You have to change the way you think about yourself, your value, all that. So, so that's what I want to focus on today. But before we do that, once you tell us a little about yourself, your business, what kind of clients you write for, and so forth.

Sure. Well, I'll give you a little bit of a background. In 2003, I was a relationship coach for single women over 40 on how to find love I did not get married myself until I was 39. And I realized how tough it was to find dates after you were out of your 20s. So I decided I wanted to do that to encourage women. So I did all the marketing and promotion for myself. I built my own website, I wrote articles, I gave workshops, I did some group coaching and also some one on one coaching. So I did that for about three years. In essence, I was. It's kind of funny looking back on it, because in essence, I was teaching women how to market themselves except in a personal way, you know, in their love life. And 2008, I was hired by a local information security company to be their marketing manager. And for those who are unfamiliar with information security, these are the companies who will come into an organization and test their networks to find possible gaps or holes in them that a hacker could potentially exploit. So there's a lot of testing, there's a lot of methodology there, of course, compliance that's involved also. So I worked there for four years and I was their entire creative department. It was a very small company. But I designed an Iweb website which was just awful. So I'm not sure how much you know about iWeb.

I don't, but it sounds difficult.

Well, it's Apple's version of a personal website. So in the, in their suite, which includes, I think, what is it, the iMovie and GarageBand and all that, Iweb was part of that. And so, yeah, so my boss thought it would be a great idea to switch from our current WordPress site to creating an iWeb site. Which, yeah, was, was kind of crazy. But at any rate, after I worked with it, I realized this is really for a personal website and not so much a business. So I Learned more about WordPress and then I switched our website back to a WordPress platform. I also created the web copy sell sheets, white papers, text sheets, some manuals, proposals, and also developed some videos and podcasts. I also created graphics, including banners, design and formatting. So I was on a lot of different things. And in the course of those four years, I also had my ear to the ground and was learning a lot about, you know, B2B marketing, a little bit about the content marketing. It was starting to bubble up back then, it's now exploded. So content marketing is huge. But I pretty much wanted to do my own thing throughout my own, my entire life. I'm a little bit like you, Ed. I just love your story about selling the candy when you were a little, little guy, that is, I just Love that story. Because to me, you know, you said, how many kids would do this? And it resonated with me because when I was a little girl, I think I was 10 years old, I decided that I wanted to throw a festival in our neighborhood for muscular dystrophy. And I rounded up my brother and some neighborhood kids and my mom drove us to different companies or different actual retailers around the neighborhood to see if they could donate toys and things like that. And we had a couple fast food restaurants donate some toys for us, but we put it together. So I was working and I loved it. I just, you know, here, here I was, 10 year old kid and I pulled together a special event, you know, so anyway, but I have entrepreneurial blood in me. I have.

By the way, that's a huge clue. I think if you look at your childhood and find things like that, most of us chuckle. But. But man, there is something there.

Exactly, exactly. And I just remembered feeling such a sense of accomplishment. And like you said, that's a clue. What made you feel that sense of accomplishment when you were a kid. And it really does end up leading us to the path we're on. So I had been, as I said, I wanted to do my own thing throughout my life. I come from, my great. Came from Italy here and just had a few dollars in his pocket on Wine Press. And he ended up eventually building his own vegetable company that serviced restaurants around Cincinnati. So that's where I'm originally from. But in 2010, I discovered copywriting and I was hooked. So I tried to start lunch like a side business called Bootstrap Graphic, where I offered website design, graphic design, and some copywriting. However, after I did a logo for a client, I realized I really didn't like as much the graphic design as much as I thought I would. My major in college was communication art. But I first started my college years as a graphic design major. So I have that in me. And. And I thought, oh, you know, this will be great. But I'll tell you, my hat goes off to those who design logos, because it is a whole other animal than dealing with copywriting. But anyway, I figured out that out of all of the three things I really like to do writing the most. So in 2011, I discovered Awai, which I know you're familiar with American Writers and Artists Inc. And I started to take some other courses. In 2012, I found your case study course, which was awesome, and I took it. And then In August of 2012, after experiencing some dissatisfaction with my job, which included an embarrassingly Low salary. I mean, I'm too embarrassed to tell you how low I was being paid for everything that I was giving to them. But at any rate, I left to launch my own full time freelance B2B copywriting business. And as I told you before, I did not have a nice nest egg when I left. I had one, one potentially, potentially awesome client whom I thought I was going to be getting more projects from. But it ended up that kind of fell through later in the year. But I just had that one big client and then some Odess clients here and there, the very low paying clients. That was it. One of the things I remembered you said regarding the case studies is you said that if you wanted to build your portfolio, offer to write a case study for free. So I did that and I went to my LinkedIn list and I let them know that I had transitioned to a new career, that I now was a full time copywriter. And if anyone would like a free case study, I was building my portfolio to contact me and I, you know, only would take three. Well, immediately that very day I had three people, three of my connections contacted me and I. Writing three different case studies.

Oh wow.

Yeah. And I also designed and formatted them and I took the one I liked the most and included it in my portfolio and it did end up getting me paid project work. I mean that one case study man has been my little hard working horse from other clients. Right, right, exactly. So in my portfolio I've got that one case study and you know, as I got better projects, I would include those in my portfolio also. But yeah, it ended up. That really, really helped me tremendously.

That's huge. And yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that because a lot of people when they're starting out, they don't consider that or they think that's beneath them or that's the wrong way to go. But I tell you, I've seen more people succeed with that simple strategy of just reaching out to the network, explaining in very simple terms what you're doing, you know, especially if you can pick people within your network who you think might be viable candidates and whether it's them or somebody they know and offer to write something for free, explain why you're doing it. I tell you what, that, that could be a huge launching pad.

Absolutely, absolutely. Could not agree more.

So, so you were, it sounds like you were starting to build things on the side before you actually left your job, correct? Or was it, did you start as soon as you quit?

I was building some things on the side. I did start out with Odesk and I agree with a lot of what you say about Odesk and Elance. The one good thing I would say about Odesk is that it helped me learn how to deal with clients, client expectations and developing those client relationships because we all have to start somewhere. And for me, that was a really valuable way for me to get started. So, so that's what I was doing. And I was positioning myself as a B2B copywriter. So I was getting. My first client actually was for web copy. Developing web copy for a startup.

Okay. Okay, so let's talk about transition into kind of the recent win that you had here. Before you tell us about it though, tell us a little bit about where you were at that point. Right. So before you actually quoted and landed this big win, you know, what was the average project size, the types of clients you were working with? Just so we have some contrast.

Sure, sure. Well, it was kind of sketchy. Last year really was my first full time. I launched in 2000, August of 2012. So August last year would be my first full year, but it was kind of rough last year. You know, I, I had some clients, but the clients that I had were paying me probably on an average between 250, 3, 50 per project. I'd say I did have, you know, a few that I was starting to be able to nudge up a little bit with. Primarily web copy. Some I've done, I've done some case study refreshes. So I have one long term client that, you know, does, I believe, give, you know, give me the rates that I'm asking for and that I believe are worth the projects that I'm doing for them. But it just, it was kind of sketchy and still I would say the average was around 250 to $300.

Gotcha. Okay, so they were talking about average projects in the hundreds, handful of clients. Right, just and. All right, so tell us about this win and the project and why this opportunity was so significant for you.

Well, this project, what's interesting to me is how it all began, which I kind of wanted to bring this up because some people may wonder about LinkedIn and if LinkedIn is actually a good investment of their time. I would say most definitely because this is how it happened for me and I know these kinds of opportunities, they develop in many different ways for people. I also have your warm email prospecting course, Ed. And you know, and I, and I've tried that, but I haven't done it. I don't think as, as much as I could in order to really start getting some results. But what happened was with LinkedIn, I had a guy contact me asking to be connected and I connected with him, but I followed up with him with an email because I noticed that he was in information security. And I reached out and just said, hey Joe, you know, I, my mind now is going blank with his name, but maybe it's good. I said, hey Joe, you know, I just wanted to let you know I'm no longer involved in information security. I started my own freelance copywriting business. I'm now a full time freelance copywriter. So if you know of anyone who needs copywriting, just let me know. Meanwhile, I still have a lot of contacts who are in the industry, so if you look through my contacts and you see anyone you'd like to be introduced to, just let me know. Well, he ended up writing back to me immediately and saying, oh, wow, okay, so you're not involved. And we started going back and forth as he asked me some questions and he said, you know, come to think of it, I'd like to introduce you to our creative director because we just bought a company, which I didn't know because he had switched jobs also to this new company. He said, you know, we just bought this company and I'm pretty sure that our marketing collateral is stale and probably needs to be refreshed. And I was like, oh, well, yes, by all means, you know, introduce me. So he introduced me to the creative director. And this was in, well, last year, 2013 in October. And this, this creative director and I had a phone conversation. Everything sounded great, you know, and we just seemed to hit it off. And he was telling me that one of their copywriters that they used was going to be going into a contract project with Adobe. And I was like, oh, you know, and so it sounded like there was going to be a need to add someone else to their team. So I was excited. I followed up with him and then it turned out that that kind of fell through. So I said, okay, fine. So then about a month later, I get an email from someone else within the organization who needed a case study refresh. And we went back and forth with determining what the project was. I quoted her a fee. She kind of questioned the fee because she said, oh, well, you do know you don't have to interview well, you know, still I was thinking to myself, yes, but so I kind of came down a little bit. I negotiated with her a bit and after negotiation it still seemed she came back. And then she said, oh, well, we Decided to keep it in house. So that was the second attempt. So I wasn't going to give up on this company because I knew I had an in. And I just had a feeling that the right opportunity just had not come up yet. So what I did is I kept in touch with the creative director around Christmas time. I sent him a happy Holidays type of message. I sent him an article that I found that had to do with their company. It had to do with a press release, actually. And I said, congratulations on launching this new service. And he was happy about that. And then about, I don't know, I think at the beginning of the year I sent him an ebook that I had created on how to develop headlines that attract attention. And I said, feel free to send this to anyone you'd like. So I was always trying to kind of keep in touch by giving things that could be of value to him. Finally, it wasn't that long after I think I sent the ebook, probably about three weeks later, he touches base with me and he says, we have a project coming up and I'd like to talk to you about it. Well, it ends up that this project is to write web copy for their new website. It's a total redesign of their website. And right now, I mean, you know, we just started this, but there's like 77 pages of this website and this is an enterprise level information security company that is worth 150 million in revenue.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So this is. It was very, very exciting to me to say the least. But it still had a little bit of a bumpy start because when he first talked to me about the project, I was all excited. I didn't even understand the scope because the scope had not been discussed yet. He just said, this is what we're going to do. We. Would you be interested in this? Do you think you're going to have the time to do this? And I said, oh, absolutely. So then I didn't hear from him for like weeks and I thought, well, I'm wondering if this project is still going to move ahead. So it was about six weeks and I finally reached out to him and I said, you know, I just, I haven't heard from you. Just wanted to see what was going on. And it was, you know, short, little friendly email. And he immediately wrote back and he said, I am so sorry and haven't reached out. He said, we've been discussing things with the web design company, so they've got a separate company that's pulling together the design. And he did not at that Point have a wireframe for me or anything that gave me an idea of what exactly we were looking at. So finally he had the appropriate information that he could send to me so, so that I could give him an idea, a quote, and I drew up a proposal then for that.

And so that was how long ago then that was?

Yeah, that was by that time, I think it was in March.

Okay, okay.

So the beginning of March is when I sent them the proposal. And then that was, we went back and forth and I was on a few phone calls with him and I think it was a web developer on their end. And then also I ended up talking to the project manager.

Let's fast forward a little bit in terms of where it is now, the.

Project, the project right now is still, I mean, I've just turned in about three different pages so we're just still getting started. So it's taken a while because this huge project involves like, I think eight different people. These are project marketing managers that are involved. So they, they have to put their, you know, special thumbprint on the copy and on exactly what they would like to see with it. And then it comes to me, I'm writing it. So we've got, we have a pretty intensive process that each of these pages have to go through.

A lot of people involved.

Yes.

And in terms of size, I'm guessing from, from the nature of what you just described, this is many times larger than your previous largest project.

Absolutely.

This is a five figure project.

Yes. Yes it is.

That's fantastic.

Yes, thank you. It is fantastic. I know part of me, to be honest, because I was so used to like starting, stopping, starting, stopping, I wasn't willing to get excited until I got the 50% deposit. That's.

Wow, you also got a 50% deposit. That's fantastic.

Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And the way I expressed it to my contact, who is the creative director is, I said I'm going to be involved with this project for at least two solid months. And so as a result of that, yes, I would require that 50% deposit.

Good for you. A lot of people are very scared, especially on a large project like that, to ask for that. But I tell you, that's when you actually need to ask for something. Something, whether it's 50, whether it's 30, whether it's 40 doesn't really matter. The point is you ask for something that shows commitment on their part and that's really the most important thing, actually more important than the cash flow.

Right, right.

It tells you a lot about the client. So let's talk a little bit about the mindset side of, of this because you, you really have to, right. You're going from your average project, you know, a few hundred dollars to suddenly a five figure project. By the way, I want to commend you on your nurturing of this client for so long. You know, that's something I always harp on to a lot of people. It sounds like theory, but you know, that's another thing you've done that look, you've shown that it works is stay in touch in a value added way over a period of time. Don't be a pass, you know, wait several weeks, Take their cues, right? So take, take a direction from what they're sharing with you, how they're reacting, but stay in touch. Don't just, don't just say, look, what's up, what's going on? Send them stuff, think about it, give it some thought and don't get excited. Like don't write. One other thing you did and I just wrote down here is you didn't get emotionally involved in the outcome. Right. I mean you were probably just because you were so used to starting, stopping, starting, stopping that it wasn't like when you didn't hear back, you know, it ruined your week, you know, that kind of thing. So a lot of things, right. But let's talk about the mindset shift. Mindset shift that you have to make in order to land those opport this particular opportunity.

Right, right. And thank you by the way, for what you said. I would say that my first mindset shift was action about the money that when you first start out. I'll say for me, when I first started out, I remembered talking to my good friend Robin and she is a marketing consultant who has helped me tremendously. One of the things I remembered asking, asking her was how much would you, how much do you think I should charge for a press release? Because I had someone who possibly could use a press release and she said nothing lower than 250. And I remembered at the time saying to her, $250. You mean somebody would actually pay that? You know, it makes me laugh now because that, that was where my mind was back then. I loved the article that Diana Hough did for International Freelancers Academy because she was so on target and so is Carol Tice. So anyone listening, if you've not heard the podcast that has Carol Tice on it talking about negotiation, I would highly, highly, highly recommend it. That was the beginning, I think, of this mindset shift.

Yeah, we'll Include links to those in the show notes.

Yes. Is it Diane or Diana?

Diana, yeah.

Diana. Okay.

So I was thinking Carol did a great interview as well for negotiating.

Absolutely. It's taken me a long time to make this shift because for decades I was used to being an employee and I did not have the mindset of a business owner. And that is where my friend Robin really helped me tremendously because she said immediately, as I'll never forget, we were sitting in Panera's having a cup of coffee. She was telling me how excited she was that I launched my full time freelance copywriting business. And then she said, mary Rose, you're now a business owner. You call the shots. You decide who to work with and who not to work with, and you decide what fees to charge. So she hammered that in my head over and over again. And it finally took that. You know, I'm not someone's employee. I'm not a lap dog. I am a business owner. And I have my own set of rules that I abide by. I have my own procedures, my methodology, whatever you want to call it. So that was a big shift for me. And the other thing is determining one's fees is I found out very, very closely connected to one's perception of their worth. So it took time for me to understand the value I was bringing to the table because I was so severely underpaid for many years for doing what I did for that company that I worked for. I, I wasn't used to thinking about everything that I could do. And so, for instance, I didn't charge extra for the design and formatting that I included in some of my projects. I mean, it wasn't until working as full time copywriter that I realized, oh, wow, people charge extra for that. You know, so that, that is definitely, you know, that was another eye opener, I guess you'd say, for anyone who's struggling for this. I'm going to highly recommend two books that I read because I just recently read these books and again, they're continuing to bolster my confidence and my understanding of my value. One is Dan Kennedy's no bs, Wealth, Attraction, the New Economy. And the second is Donald Trump's book, Think Big and Kick Ass in Business and Life, co written with Bill Zanker, who is the founder of the Learning Annex. When I read Dan Kennedy's book, he said to look for mentors, people you admire who are doing what you would like to do or who were behaving in a way you'd like to behave. Well, I've always story in Trump's book about how Bill Zanker pursued him to speak at the Learning Annex. I'm not sure if you've ever read this book.

I haven't.

Okay. It's a very interesting story and I'm not sure if I'm going to get the numbers here. Right, but basically he offered Trump something like $20,000 at first to do it. And he's speaking to Donald Trump's secretary and the secretary just basically laughed at him. She's like, yeah, I don't think so. Click, you know, and he finally ramped it up to $1 million. And at that point the Learning Annex was only worth 4 million in revenue. So he was really putting a lot toward getting Donald Trump. And what was interesting to me is I thought to myself, you know, when you offered the 1 million, by the way, that's when the secretary goes, uh huh, that sounds like an interesting offer. I'll let Donald know. And then Donald Trump ended up calling him back and saying, sure, this sounds intriguing, let's talk. But the thing that I realized is Trump didn't ask for the $1 million because he needed it. He asked for it because he knew that is what his brand was worth. He knew what it would be worth to the Learning Annex to come and do a speech, a presentation. And that really got in deep in me because I thought, you know what, that is what I want. I want the clients that I work with to understand clearly what it is that I have to offer, which of course puts the onus on me to disclose exactly what they're going to get. So I'm always, you know, this, you know, as you said, it's a constant journey, but I'm always sharpening up my deliverables. I'm always trying to sharpen up exactly what I'm offering to a client. So that they do understand. Yes, that I'm worth this. You know, these are the results I can get you. This is what you're going to get. And then they know then that, you know, when I finally get to the point where I'm going to be asking for the fees, that they, they understand why, you know, because a lot of clients don't understand why they, they don't understand the background research, for instance, copywriters do. They don't understand maybe our expertise that we're bringing to the table. I mean, all of that has to be communicated to them. So that, that was a huge, just, it's a continual growth for me to, to get into that mindset and to grow in that, and you know, because these, this is what the larger organizations to me are looking for.

Absolutely. They, and they want to see that confidence too. Right. So. Which is something that sometimes you have to, I think fake a little bit, right to. Because you're, you're too fearful. And if you're completely transparent, you know, and don't show some confidence, then they're going to feel that, they're going to sense that. So sometimes you just have to get yourself in that, in that frame of mind and go out there, do it, quote what it's worth, and, and see what happens. But so here's, I'm going to turn this around a little bit on you because I think it's very difficult when all you're seeing day in and day out are really bad clothes, clients, really bad prospects. Right. And, and lack of opportunity. So when you have those blind spots when you're in that world, how can you possibly make that mindset shift? Mindset shift if all you're seeing is, is the bad stuff you've been seeing.

For years that, you know, that is, I know, Ed, that is a hard one to, to kind of wrap your mind around. But you have to believe it is, I would say that it is a big step of faith because what you're doing is you're believing that those higher paying clients are out there, even though they may not be in your world yet, but they are in other people's world. Finally one came into my world and I know there's more down the line. There are a bunch that came into your world and so it's a matter of believing and it's also a matter of standing your ground. And so that when you do have these clients that are, you know, just, I hate to say bad clients, but these are just low paying clients, clients that take up a lot of your time, a lot of your energy. You know, these are not the type of clients really that you want. And these are the type of clients that anymore I will say go to Odesk, you know, check out Odesk or Elance and that that may be more for your budget at this point. But the thing is, is you also have to learn how to say no. And that is, that is scary because when you're needing projects, it's hard to say no to the lower paying projects, but you have to have courage to do that in order to make room for higher paying clients that are going to be coming in. And it's a weird thing, I know you had a podcast that was, or talking a little bit about I can't even remember what the name of your podcast was, but it basically was believing something about the universe. You know, that there is, that there is like something that's going to open up for you. And, you know, it does require a bit of that, of saying no to the lower paying clients, no to being taken advantage of so that you can say yes to the better opportunities. And the better opportunities, to me, I don't know why it works this way, but those better opportunities do not seem to come until you learn how to say no to the, to the bad ones.

That's so true. And I think it's because you've basically made room at that point.

Yes.

You've made room, like physically, emotionally, spiritually for better things to fill that place. Right. It's like, you know, if you, if you move water of the way automatically, right. Water has to settle. So. But, but you can't, you can't create that void until you actually, you know, make that decision. Yeah. Those are the two episodes I did with Pete Savage on the spiritual side to freelance success. I'll add something to that, which is a slightly different twist on that idea. And it's something I've recently kind of started to understand recently, which is if you need it, you can't have it. If you need it, you can't have it. Now. It sounds like a cute thing to say, but it's not. What it really means is if you need it, if you're telling yourself, I need it, I need it, I need it, you're also telling yourself that you don't already have it, which means that you're going to get more of that situation, meaning you're away from it.

Yes.

But the moment you say I don't need it, you know, so you, so you detach yourself emotionally from it. Magic starts to happen. And I don't know why, but it's very hard to do that sometimes. Because we say, oh, I need this project.

Yes.

I don't land this, you know, everything's going to be ruined. That is the worst thing you could tell yourself.

Right. And that's also an excellent negotiating tactic, a very important one that after you, you say whatever it is. Because when I was negotiating with this larger client, I told him, I gave him a range. I said, I charge usually between 300 to 500 per page, per webpage now. He said, wow. He said, well, even, even the lower end of that is going to be out of our budget. So I waited, though. I waited for him to say what he said. I did not Ask what. What is your budget? I just said, this is what I charge. And then I stopped talking. I didn't say a word. And he's the one who told me that. Now that gave me an idea then. And so then we talked about things that I could work with him regarding what the quote could be. And so it ended up that some pages were charged more of the higher rate, and then some other pages, the bulk of the pages, were actually charged a little bit below that lowest rate.

Mm, There you go.

Yes. So, you know, because my. My thing was, is I wanted to win the business, and I realized I was gonna have to compromise a little bit on my end, so. And I did. And I feel really good about it that I was able to do that.

That's fantastic. And, you know, one thing I really like about the story is that sometimes I feel like listeners might think that I'm out of touch. Because right when you get to a point in your business where, you know, most of your work is referral based and it's word of mouth and, you know, it's easy for me to tell you, yeah, you need to think bigger and you need to go after better clients. You need to make that mindset shift. But keep in mind two things. First of all, I still struggle with this, right? I might be working at a different level, but there you never fully arrive, right? You're always seeking the next level of. Of opportunity. And so it's something, you know, I learned. I've learned a lot from you, Mary Rose, just as much as you've learned from the show. This is something that I just adjust to, to what I'm working on. So. But it's also important. I'm glad you shared this with us, because you're someone who just made something happen. You made a huge leap of faith, and. And it's worked out for you. So this is not just me telling you guys, hey, you need to do this. You're a living example of that. So I appreciate you sharing this with our listeners.

Well, thank you. I hope it encourages everyone. I really do.

Oh, I know it will. I know it will. So one final question for you. How do you see your business changing and growing from this place? Because you've made, you know, you can't go back, right? So what do you see?

I see more business. More, well, B2B copywriting business, perhaps focusing a little bit more on the infosec industry, because before I wasn't really looking for work in that industry, but now that I've got a larger company, you know, in my portfolio I can, I'm seeing myself perhaps going after a few more of those types, plus using this as a springboard to get the larger clients to be able to say to a client in the future, I've worked with one of my clients, for instance, is a 150 million revenue enterprise. I mean, I can now include that. So I'm really excited about that and I'd like to be able to continue to do the web copy and case studies and I'm still wanting to do white papers.

So that's wonderful. Yeah. I think one of the biggest things you can get from this, and I can tell you agree with this, it's not so much the money, it's the, the boost in self confidence that comes from having gotten to this place. Right. That's worth a lot more than the money, not just in terms of personal growth, but in terms of the future income you can now expect because you can now talk more confidently and you can approach your prospects differently and close a higher percentage of what you quote and so forth.

Absolutely.

Fantastic. Well, so where can listeners learn more about you, Mary Rose? How can they connect with you?

They can connect with me on my website, MaryRose McGuire.com and on my website you can also check out my Facebook page, which I basically just put up things from my, my blog. But I keep a very active blog. I blog between four to five times a week.

Oh, wow.

So, yes. So in my blog, by the way, I consider it as practice. So that whole thing of writing every day, even if I did not have projects to do, I was writing my blog posts. So that's been a very, very good thing for me too.

Wonderful. So we'll make sure to include that link to your site in the show notes. And again, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Your success, this is very inspiring.

Thank you, Ed. I appreciate it. The time.

Well, there you go, folks. Proof that we can all go after bigger, better paying clients at any point in our careers, even when we don't feel we're ready. In fact, I would argue that you'll never really feel ready to take that next step. And that should be a sign. The way I see it, when it feels scary, when it feels uncomfortable, that's a good sign that it's probably a worthwhile goal, that the goal is worthy of you. When it just feels too comfortable, it's usually a sign that it's, it's not a big enough goal or big enough endeavor. So I hope that it's. This has inspired you to stretch yourself a little bit bit and I wanted to remind you that you can grab the details show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 53 in fact, B2B launcher.com is where you can find detail show notes for all the episodes in this podcast. If you enjoyed this show, I would be grateful if you shared it with friends. And the easiest way to do that is by going to bwlauncher.com forward/love or using any of the social media sharing buttons that you find on the Show Notes page for today. And of course I'll always take a quick rating or review on itunes if you're willing to do that. Ratings or reviews help the show remain the number one ranked podcast on copywriting in itunes and it's also one of the top ranked podcasts in itunes. On the topic of writing. And you know those rankings, ratings really help expose the show to people who wouldn't have heard of the show otherwise. So that's why I always ask you guys if you're willing, if you're getting value from the show. If you can take a minute or two to leave me a quick rating, the easiest way to do that is by going to b2b launcher.com forward/itunes. That brings us to the end of the episode. I am your host Ed Gandia. Thank you so much for listening and I hope hope you have an awesome day.

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