#059 Cliff Ravenscraft on How Podcasting Can Help You Land Great Clients and Make You the Obvious...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Thank you for joining me for episode 59 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a reminder, you can find detailed show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 59. You know, two years ago, I thought that people like Michael Stelzner from Social Media examiner and lisben from marketing-mentor.com were totally off the rocker. And the reason I thought that is they were seriously evangelizing podcasting like it was the most important authority building tool since the almighty blog. And I tell you, my impression of podcasting, this is about two years ago, it was that it's something that I thought had died somewhere around 2005, 2006. I hadn't heard of podcasting since then and I just couldn't figure out why these people, whom I respect very much, we're talking about podcasting like it was just the most incredible thing ever. So fast forward two years and I've launched two of my own podcasts. And I gotta tell you, it's been one of the most amazing things I've ever done. I mean, in terms of the impact it's had on my business, it's helped me attract more leads and clients than I ever expected, generate a new audience, generate more feedback, and in 18 months than I had in five years up until that point of blogging. So I've gotten more unsolicited, amazing feedback from people in the short period of time than I ever had in that five year period of just blogging. It's allowed me to build huge trust and credibility with my audience, with my prospects, with my clients, build huge goodwill with my listeners, because it's a lot. It's given me a platform to add a lot of value first without asking for anything in return. And you know what? I find it fun. And not only that, but it's often easier to do than writing articles in post. And I know that might sound shocking to you, I am a writer, but there's something about just talking naturally. And by the way, that's one of the most important things of having an effective podcast. It's just to be yourself and just talk through the issues and interview good people. If you decide to have interviewees in your show, it's often much easier when you add it all up than putting the equivalent article or blog post together. Now, if you think podcasting is for authors, speakers, coaches, celebrities, that type of thing, think again. That is not true. Podcasting is rapidly becoming one of the most effective and popular mediums for attracting leads, for building trust, and creating rock solid loyalty among your clients. I. I know that sounds like hype, and you guys know how I'm very excited about podcasting, and so I know I'm biased, but I really didn't believe this until, again, 18 months ago when I started my shows, and I saw the impact directly in my own business. So in this interview, I don't just want you to hear from me. I wanted to bring a real pro, someone who's been podcasting for a long time, someone who's helped a lot of people launch their own shows. His name is Cliff Ravenscraft. Cliff is an amazing guy. He's a friend, a colleague of mine. He eats, breathes, and lives podcasting. And he's probably helped more people launch their own shows and just about anybody else out there. And in this interview, he's going to explain why every service professional, including freelancers in all disciplines, should consider starting their own show. If you're very selective about the shows you load into your phone or your mobile device, and I know I don't expect everyone to listen every show I put out there, but. But if you're selective, I can assure you that this one is a must listen. So let's get right to it. I hope you enjoy it, man.

I cannot believe that I am actually talking with my good friend Cliff Ravenscraft, the podcast answer man. Cliff, it's really an honor to have you here, man.

Well, thank you so much, Ed Gandia. And I can't believe that the lawn guy waited to blow all of the grass out off the platform just outside of my studio. Until you introduce me in your show, I think it's great.

Well, and, you know, we're talking offline here, where I had technical difficulty of not using my regular mic, so, you know, it's all good, though. We're making it work because that's how we roll.

The important thing is what message we have in our heart gets out into the world, and that we have the opportunity to really have a positive impact with the gifts and talents that we have. That's what it's all about. And sometimes the technical stuff gets in the way, but we just got to overcome that stuff.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's exactly what we're going to Deliver here today. I think we should start by maybe telling the audience a little bit about yourself. I know, gosh, I haven't known you for that long, but I remember the first time I heard your voice and your message and it was extremely impactful. I don't know if I ever shared this with you, but it was in an interview you did with Michael Stelzer. Michael had you in a show, a social media marketing podcast, and you were talking about why people should podcast, why entrepreneurs, business people should podcast. And I'll tell you, it's one of those moments in my life where I walked into a conversation thinking, I'm not going to do that. And I left 45 minutes later thinking, I'm absolutely going to do that. So why don't you tell me, want to tell folks about yourself, what you do, where you came from, how you started in podcasting?

Sure. So basically I started podcasting as a hobby back in December of 2005, podcasting about a TV show called Lost. And I've always been a tech geek apart my first computer when I was 8 years old. Before I took apart my first computer, I had been playing on computers for years, going all the way back to the Commodore VIC 20. I'm an early adopter technology guy. So I started blogging back in 1997, before it was called blogging. We all had these access to like Angelfire.com and a bunch of other sites like Geocities and we could create these hand coded HTML files and super geeky stuff that nobody really cares about. But anyway, that's a little aspect of who I was prior to my first podcast. Another thing prior to my first podcast was that I was an insurance agent for 11 years before I left that to do what I'm doing today. And I'm sure that will probably come up in the conversation somewhere somehow. But anyway, So I had 11 years as a very successful insurance agent in a family run insurance agency that has been in the family since 1939, and I was next in line to take it over. And if I would not have left today, I would own the agency and my personal income would be just over half a million dollars a year right now. Wow. And I left that behind to pursue podcasting full time. And then a third thing to know about me prior to my starting in podcasting is that I was involved in formal official ministry within the Christian Church from 1996 to 2007, operating in various capacities that are in the pastor role, whether it be associate pastors, pastors, small groups within the Christian Church. So those are some of the things to know about me. And basically what happened was in December 2005, I started podcasting about a TV show just for the fun of it, nothing more. Within a couple episodes of that podcast, we had 17,000 subscribers around the world, which, by the way, this does not happen for everyone. And it's not something that can be easily duplicated. There are a couple things that went into it. We joined a network of other podcasts devoted to the TV show Lost that had already been doing it for a couple months. And they brought us in and let us share their subscribers, which was really cool. We built an audience of our own as well. And it happened to be a. It happened to be the first television show that really had something play out on the Internet, where millions of people were desperate to find any and every clue they could about this TV show. So we just came in at the right place, right time. Also, within a couple episodes, actually a couple months of us recording these episodes, my wife had joined me. We're talking about this TV show, but this TV show would bring up various different topics about life and faith. In fact, there was an episode called the 23rd Psalm, and there was a character on the show who was playing a Catholic priest. And the question was, is he really a priest or is he not a priest? Is this a lie? And he quoted the 23rd Psalm and actually he misquoted it. And Stephanie and I were actually just having general conversations about the topics in the show, and I'd get an email that says, hey, Cliff, you know, I'm listening to your show and I hope you don't find this offensive, but I have the suspicion that you and your wife might be Christians. Am I right or wrong? And I hope you. I hope that if I'm wrong, you don't find that offensive. And I said, I don't find that offensive. And, well, yes, we are Christian. And then this person would write me back this nine page email laying out their entire life and where they're struggling with their faith and asking all kinds of genuine questions, which, by the way, in 10 years of doing ministry, I had never had anybody be that open and that authentic with what they're struggling with in life and genuinely wanting real advice. And this became the norm. This started happening over and over again, and I realized that, wow, my wife and I are having a positive impact on people's lives, even though we're just talking around having fun about a TV show. And so we created another podcast devoted to family and just life issues. We created A third podcast called Or. I created a third podcast devoted to faith alone, just talking about the Christian church and Christian faith. And one thing led to another. Eventually. I had a lot of different shows. I was working 40. I had dropped down to working a minimum of 40 hours a week in insurance and about 40 hours a week in creating content for the web and interacting with the audience that had built up around our content. And I felt called. Basically, it got to the place where my career in insurance was a distraction that was keeping me from what I felt like was most important in life, which was really communicating with this audience and basically providing things that would provide entertainment, education, encouragement and inspiration. It was the fulfillment of a lifelong dream of actually pursuing ministry full time, but in a way that I never dreamed existed. And so that's an overview, really quick background of how I got started.

Wow. So isn't it interesting, right, how your desire manifested itself in a very different way? You thought it was going to come about through ministry directly in the church. And here you are, you're podcasting. You start out with a show about a TV show, and the audience feedback was coming from that. People are opening up. You're developing real dialogue and relationships. That's remarkable.

Yeah, it blew me away. And in fact, it was interesting because in the church that I was a part of in 2007, they said, hey, Cliff, we want to have you sign up to take over this position within the church, and if we do this, we can make. I mean, it was some church politics stuff. And I said, what would it require of me? Well, they said, well, instead of just attending the one service with you and your family, you'd have to attend all four services on the weekend. And you'd also have to go and take communion to the shut ins and the hospital. And you'd also have to attend one more meeting every week. And I said, guys, I can't do that. And they said, why not? I said, because I've got this podcasting thing that I'm committed to. These people expect me to be there. And the leadership of the search made a really bad mistake. They said, cliff, we want to have a talk with you. We think this has become a little bit concerning. We think you really should pray about this because we feel like your priorities are out of place and you're not paying attention to the things that God most wants you to be a part of. And I literally, gosh, I had the utmost respect for the authority of the pastors and the leadership of the church and all this stuff. And it really Ate me up. And I did sincerely pray about it. And I came back after two weeks, and I called a meeting with those same people who said those words to me. And I said, guys, you were absolutely right. With everything that's been going on these last couple, you know, months, and it was like nine or ten months. With everything that's been going on with these last nine or 10 months, you're absolutely right. My priorities are out of whack, and God has clearly told me that, you know, where I should be focusing my time, and. And I have allowed myself to get distracted. And for that reason, with a very clear conscience, I resign from any and all positions within this church so that I can fully devote myself to podcasting.

And jaws dropped.

And their jaws dropped. And they told me that I was going to fall off the face of this earth, and probably. I mean, they told me that this was the worst mistake and that I'll be back and stuff like that. Well, anyway, that's in the history books.

Wow. So definitely a strong passion. So here's what I'm curious about. Glyphosate. I think I'm a good person to kind of approach this the way we're going to be approaching it during the interview, because I'm new to podcasting, and before I heard your interview, Mike's interview with you, or however that works, I really thought my impression of podcasting is something that used to Happen Right around 2004, 2005, that happened, and then it just died. So when I heard you guys talking, somebody told me, somebody insisted I needed to listen to that interview. I wasn't going to do it. When somebody told me or when I heard you guys talking about it, I thought, okay, well, they're really going to have to create a strong case for this, because this is so 2005. Why are you so hot on podcasting today? I understand it was huge back then, but, I mean, is it huge now?

I thought video was all the rage.

And all this other new media. What do you have to say about that?

Yeah, sure. I've got plenty of things to say about that. So here's the deal. So, you know, first of all, you're right that in 2005, 2006, podcasting really took off. I mean, it was explosive, exponential growth. People who were in their pajamas in their basement of their house, all of a sudden, speaking to thousands of people around the world, myself included, it was absolutely ridiculous. Now there were people out there, Ed, who thought, wow, this is going to completely shut down radio. It's going to take over the world. And this is where all the ad revenue is going to start going.

And.

And we're all going to be millionaires if we start today. Well, those people were in for a very rooted awakening. I do believe that some of that could be. I don't think that radio is going to go away, but I do think that ad dollars are going to really be shifted towards podcasting in about 10 or 15 years from now. There's already some of it coming, but, you know, there'll be more down the road. But what happened was these guys wanted a quick, you know, get rich quick thing. They thought this was the next big thing that was going to make them all rich and famous. And those folks were happy to start a podcast, gain an audience of a couple thousand people. And then all of a sudden, what happened was right around mid-2006, early 2007, podcasting never shrunk. It just stopped growing the way it was growing. And there are a couple reasons for that. Number one, it was the early adopters and the tech geeks that understood how podcasting worked and how to get it and how to consume it. And for anybody who was not a geek and who was not an early adopter, who didn't have a mobile MP3 device to take with them everywhere they go, and weren't intimidated by this idea of having software on your computer that would find and subscribe to these shows, download them automatically for you to your computer, and then you hook up this thing called. Do you remember these things? They're called cables.

Yeah, I've been told about them.

Yeah. So this cable that you would plug into your computer and then plug into this portable device, and then you would actually tell the software to send it over to your device, and you'd have to find some way to get your device to recognize those audio files so that you could then listen to them. Real simple stuff, right?

Yeah, I was not one of those people.

Exactly. And that's why you thought podcasting. Everybody's talking about it, and now nobody is. Because for you, podcasting never became a big deal. You weren't inside the tech early adopter bubble. But here's the deal. Everybody whose lives were changed as a result of listening to these podcasts, we all have been listening to podcasts ever since. And by the way, there were other people who had the technical skill and know how over the years that the actual audience has always increased. There's never been a time where audience numbers dipped. It's never dipped. It just went straight up like crazy. And Then kind of, if you will, plateaued a little bit, but just with a slight average increase. And so people were saying, like, you know, I don't even know if I want to continue podcasting. Leo laporte, by the way, somebody I look up to and I love a whole lot. But Leo Laporte, for example, he grew his audience to about 250,000 people who listen to him every single week. And he actually said the words podcasting is dead in front of a live audience at a conference. And he said, and in follow up interviews, and he was saying, yeah, it's really plateau. I mean, right now we're lucky if we get another. We're lucky if we pick up another 2 or 3,000 people who subscribe to our show each and every month. I'm like, did you hear those words? I mean, how many people out there listening to my voice right now would love to be in a position where only 2,000 people started subscribing to their show every month?

Yeah.

Now. And by the way, he's at the top of the top. I mean, most people don't get those kind of numbers. But still, there's never been a time better than now for people to join podcasting. Now why is that? And by the way, podcasting is experiencing explosive growth once again. And the reason why is because of the smartphone. Once the smartphone started getting 3G access to the Internet and once smartphones started to come with applications that would manage the subscription and management of podcasts. So now if you're on an iPhone, I recommend the Apple official Podcasts app. There's a lot of other great apps out there, but Apple has one. And you can go in and search and find a podcast right there on your phone. You can subscribe to it on your phone. Every time there's a new episode, it will notify you on your phone. And anytime you want, anywhere you want, you can listen to it on your phone, no wires required. That's pretty darn awesome. The same is true on your Android phone. If you're on Android, I'd probably recommend Stitcher Radio as a free app that you can get in the Google Play Store if you're on BlackBerry. BlackBerry OS for the last three years has had a podcast app built in. I've heard it's not the greatest, but it works if you're a BlackBerry person. Windows Phone, there are apps and ways to get podcasts on your Windows Phone as well. So all of a sudden There are over 1 billion with a B people around the world who have these devices. Who can listen to your voice anytime and everywhere. Anytime they want. Anywhere they want. That's pretty cool. And then of course, you think, well, let's see, blogging. Why don't I just create a blog? It's a whole lot smaller or shorter. It's a lower barrier of entry than podcasting, where you have to get a mic that might not work right before you start your interview. Right, well, so it's a lot easier to blog. Well, create a blog. That's wonderful. In fact, I encourage everyone out there who has a business or who's an entrepreneur, please create a blog. You should be doing that. But here's the deal. There's over 450 million active English language blogs. That means no matter what topic you're gonna blog about, you're competing against a lot of people who are blogging about the exact same thing. Which may not be a bad thing, but man, there's a whole lot more competition in that space. And so like you said, Ed, there's a lot of people who say that video. Video's that. That's the next big thing. Well, there's 100 million hours of brand new video content that never existed before every single month on YouTube. Every month. 100 million hours.

I can't even imagine that number. That doesn't factor in my head.

Exactly. And so your 12 minute video, which by the way, if it's any longer than that, nobody wants to hear anything you have to say. So if your 12 minute video gets lost in the hundred and the hundred million hours worth of content that was uploaded this month, you know, yeah, you're going to get some eyeballs. But you know that it's, you know, it's not going to be this thing unless you're, you know, unless you're a very attractive teenage girl that's going to teach people how to put makeup on, or you're one of those hot heartthrob teenage boys who can get out of bed and never fix their hair, and all of a sudden it's attractive to these girls. I don't know how you're going to get those millions of views that they do.

So you mentioned the competition in terms of time with video and in terms of kind of noise with blogs. Tell us a little bit about a number of podcasts out there. Just to put it in comparison, I'm.

Going to use the phrase only in the only context I think that it's applicable, and that is there are only approximately 225,000 audio podcasts that exist in the world now that Sounds like a big number. And it is. However, check this out. 450 million active English language blogs, over 100 million hours of new video content, and each week there's only content being produced by about 225,000 audio podcasters in the world. Now, here's the good news and also the bad news. But. But it's really good news for all of us. Nine out of ten of those audio podcasts absolutely suck. They really do. The bar is set low, my friends, and it's very easy for somebody to come in. And so let's just say you happen to have a podcast on copywriting. Sound familiar, Ed?

Yeah, I've heard of those. I've heard of a really good one.

Exactly. And so you might think, well, I'm going to launch a podcast, and you go into itunes and see if there's anybody else doing this. And Ed, I happen to know there's a couple other copywriting podcasts out there, aren't there? There are, but how many are there? 5, 6, 7, 8, maybe 10. And if there are, there's only three or four of them that are any good. And there's no doubt in my mind that if you take just a little bit of an investment and make yours one of the best produced out there, you're immediately either going to rise straight to the top or you're certainly going to be in the top two or three of all podcasts in the world devoted to your particular niche. That, my friends, is what audio podcasting.

Offers, and that's a perfect example. So my show, for instance, if you type in copywriting in itunes, under podcast, I'm always number one or number two. So, you know, it has nothing to do with bragging rights. It's just to show you, gosh, if you were to look for copywriting blogs, there's millions of them. But notice how quickly, and that happened within a matter of a couple of months when I launched a show. So I'm with you 100% there. And now I'm going to throw another question at you in terms of the whole competition for people's time. You're talking about how nobody's going to watch a video over 12 minutes for the most part yet. Man Podcaster, 45 minutes an hour, sometimes a little bit over an hour.

What gives?

Well, here's the deal. The cool thing is this is actually one of the benefits of a podcast. I think the most appropriate time for a podcast is anywhere between 20 to 40 minutes, but you can go to as long as an hour, as long as Your content is engaging, and it's providing great value to the people who are interested in the topic that you're given. But here's the deal. While they'll only give you about three to five minutes to read your blog post, or maybe even 10 minutes or 12 minutes to watch your video, it is a proven fact since 2005 that a majority of all people who listen to podcasts will easily give you 30 minute, 30 to 60 minutes of their time consistently every single week of their life once they find your show, if you create it. And why is that? Because. Well, guess what? If you're reading a blog post, you're in front of a computer screen. If you are watching a video, you're in front of a screen. And. And when somebody's in front of a screen, there's only a couple things that they're. There are a couple other things that they probably could or should be doing, like answering those emails that are building up, or they're distracted by Facebook, or they're distracted by all this other stuff that they could or should be doing, whereas it comes to an audio podcast, well, guess what they're doing. They're listening to you while they're driving in the car. They're listening to you while they're out for a walk or jogging or running. They're walking the dog, they're mowing the grass, they're washing the laundry, doing the dishes, flying on an airplane to a conference. All of these things. They're listening to your voice this entire time. And they can be 100% devoted on every single word you speak from your mouth, and they're hanging on every word. And at the same time that they're 100% devoted on listening to what you're saying, they're still able to be 100% devoted to the attention that's necessary to continue to walk one more step in front of them, or to push the lawnmower in front of them, or to do whatever it is that they're doing.

Man, you know, I find that shocking when you first taught me that, you know, through. Through Mike's interview, because I just couldn't imagine my audience doing this. And the. One of the biggest surprises for me is how many people listen religiously and they listen to the whole thing. And you're absolutely right. And I found the same thing, because that's when I started listening to podcasts and I found myself engaged because that's when I listen to them. So, yeah, that's such an important point. That's actually what turned my Opinion about starting a podcast. So now here's the dilemma that I think a lot of listeners might have. This sounds really exciting.

I love the idea.

But if you're using it as a marketing tool, as a tool to maybe attract potential clients to develop trust with them. If you're a freelance copywriter, designer, web developer. People in my audience are selling to other businesses. Do their prospects and clients actually listen to podcasts?

Speak that question one more time.

So do you business people who are, especially in a corporate environment, do they listen to podcasts? Because for my audience, that's who they're targeting. They're Targeting Marketing Directors, VPs of Public Relations, you know, that sort of thing. And you know, I can see it in a world where you're targeting consumers. But I'm wondering, when you're in a business to business situation, selling to these people in a corporate environment, in many cases, are these people listening to podcasts?

So, Ed, are you a business person?

I am.

All right. Do you listen to podcasts?

I do.

All right. Do the people who are listening to our voice, do most of them have a business or building a business?

They do, yeah.

Are they, are they not listening to us?

I hope so.

They are. Otherwise they're not hearing my voice and don't even hear me asking the question. So the answer to the question is yes. Business people, all sorts of people all over the world. Even when I was doing my TV show fan podcast, I want to tell you that I happen to build a relationship with the vice president of marketing for this little company called Disney. Wow. You ever heard of it?

Yeah.

So she happens to be a close personal friend of mine. I don't know if you. Have you ever heard of the Cinderella Castle? And there's the Cinderella Suite inside. Yeah, that very few only, I think only, let's see, only 52 people or 52 families per year ever set foot in the Cinderella Suite. My wife and my family are one of the 52 people. Last year, because of my relationship with the vice president of marketing for Disney.

Which came across, came about through your podcast.

Through my lost podcast.

That's amazing.

And not only that, but one of the. I used to have this thing where people can contribute financially. It's called Plus Membership. Actually it's still available today, but my largest contribution ever was a check for $12,000 from a guy who has a business and listened to my podcast and says, I'm so inspired by your. What you're building. It reminds me of what I had when I first started my business years ago. And I desire to get back to. And he sent me a check for $12,000. So are there business people out there listening to these podcasts? Yes, if they're the VP of anything or the. They're the CEO of this or the manager of this department. These people are all people who got into the position that they are not because they went to college once started and learned a lot of great things, and then figure, I've got this document now I can just rest on my laurels and have this cushy job for the rest of my life. No, the people who are in those positions are in those positions because they are consistently desire. They consistently desire to commit their life to learning, to improving themselves. And before it was audio books, you know, books you would read and maybe cassettes on tape, you know, have you ever heard of the cassette on tape industry?

Oh, my gosh, yeah. I used to have a trunk full of them.

This wasn't something your average everyday consumer was signing up for and paying. Right. These were all business executives trying to purchase all of these courses that could help them take their business efforts to the next level to learn these things. These are the ones who go to conferences on the weekends and pay lots of money to learn new things from the experts in their industry. Well, guess what? Today a lot of those people, almost all of them now, are hearing about podcasting and they are out there in droves.

So the logic, basically, and tell me if this is sounds right, is. So these people are probably the ones who are adopting podcasts in terms of consumption. They're listening to more podcasts, they're finding out about podcasts they sell, see it as a vehicle to learn more, to stay on top of news and trends. And if they have the power to hire a copywriter or a writer or a designer, they're going to be very interested in getting to know you and listening to you if you have a podcast. How does that sound?

Absolutely. And you know, we're talking business to business. I did a little thing out there because I knew one of the questions you were going to ask me, is there any podcast out there where, you know, they're not nearly, you know, they're not just focusing on consumers, they're business to business. And, you know, I asked this out there, and there's this thing called HubSpot company that does inbound marketing for businesses. Their, their main clientele is all business. And they have a thing called the HubSpot or the HubCast. And then there is Michael Stelzner social media marketing podcast. He. He did that to reach all of the, you know, marketing departments of all the big, huge brands in the world. And he just did a. He's been doing the podcast for two years, and his first conference ever that he did was had over 1000 business marketing people from businesses there. The second year, he had over 2,000 business people there. And a lot of those, a majority of those people listen to his podcast. There's the sales whisperer out there. There is Tim Page doing this conversion cast podcast. There is Clean Web Conversations, a podcast for people who are trying to do more of this green living stuff. I could go on and on with all the people who said, yeah, Cliff, there's all of these. And by the way, podcast Answer man. My podcast is a podcast where I primarily want to reach out to businesses, because businesses are the ones who can most see the value and also have the budgets to afford what it costs for me to train and teach them in the areas of podcasting.

I should add, I'm glad you named Michaels, because a lot of people might think, yeah, but he's targeting a lot of solopreneurs or entrepreneurs. Not true. A lot of the people you mentioned, they go to that conference. Coca Cola, Dow, a lot of big Fortune 500 companies. And these people are listening to his show. Maybe a point that I wanted to underscore that you kind of mentioned, but I think it didn't hit me until now, Cliff, is you're selling to businesses, but businesses are not just things. They're people. Right? You're selling to people, and people are going to do things like they're going to have idle time in their car. They're going to want to listen to something when they're jogging, and that's where podcasts will come in.

Yeah, and that's exactly it. And the other thing, the other benefit of a podcast, and let me just share with you, early on, starting my business, people before they knew who I was, before they knew who I was, and people that had worked with me said, this guy's great. You should work with Cliff Ravenscraft. I would get an email that says, hey, Cliff, my name is so and so. And I was referred by, you know, insert name of that person here. And I'd love to get on the phone call, get on a phone call with you for 30 minutes and find out what you have to offer and see whether or not working with you might be the right thing. And I'd be on those calls all the time, Ed. And, you know, sometimes I would close land them, and sometimes I wouldn't and most of the reason why I wouldn't land them is because, well, what started out as a 30 minute call ended up being a 90 minute to 2 hour call where I ended up giving them everything that they could ever need without ever needing to hire me. That was the only time I didn't get the cl, didn't get the work. So what happened was, fast forward a couple years. I'm consistently creating brand new one hour long content, giving away free answers to everybody's questions in podcasting, which, by the way, I just put out my 308th episode, no, 370th episode of podcast Answer Man. And so today, Ed, when somebody calls me or somebody reaches out to me, it's usually, it's usually this. They say, cliff, I so and so referred me to your to you said that it'd be great to work with you. You're the person to go to. By the way, I've been listening to your podcast for two to three weeks. I've listened to about seven different episodes, which, by the way, I've listened to you for seven hours straight. And I'm absolutely convinced I want to work with you. And that's how things go. Or it's, hey, I found you as a result of a Google website. I can't believe how much free content you put on the Internet. I've been listening to a couple hours of your podcast and I'm ready to hire you. Or if somebody says, hey, Cliff, my name is so and so, and Ed Gandia told me that you're the one who helped him get it launched. He told me that you're the person to go to. I'm really busy. Can you get on a call with me for 30 minutes and tell me why I should hire you? And I reply back very respectfully and I say, listen, thank you so much for reaching out to me. I'm so glad that Ed told you about me. Here's what I would recommend that you do. Number one, go to my website and listen to the most recent two podcast episodes of my show, Click Play. Listen to the whole things from beginning to end. If by listening, if by the end of the second episode, you are not 100% convinced that you should hire me, you shouldn't hire me.

Wow, that's powerful.

And they all hire me.

Well, you know, Cliff, one thing I noticed that struck me as really odd in a very cool kind of way is I had been blogging for, I guess about five years before I launched my podcast a year and a half ago. And you know, you get the occasional feedback and, of course, comments and people, you know, they like the content. But in the year and a half that I've been podcasting, I've gotten more amazing unsolicited feedback from podcast listeners than I ever had in five years combined through two blogs that I had.

You want to know why?

Why?

Because of your voice, your physical voice.

Tell us about that. What does that mean?

So here's the deal. When people come to your blog for two or three years or whatever, they can frequent as much as they want, but they really still have no idea who you are, what makes you laugh, what you sound like when you're happy, what you sound like when you're sad. They don't actually see you as a human being. They actually see words on a screen. And oftentimes depend. Oftentimes what you have written will be interpreted by their emotional state at the time that they're reading what you're saying. So, for example, you may have written a joke. Ha, ha ha. But if all of a sudden they just had a huge fight with their spouse and they're feeling pretty down in the dumps, they actually may have been terribly offended by your joke because they had no idea that you meant it in a funny way. So oftentimes, they're reading your words and they're assuming that you are them or that they understand who you are, and they're projecting all kinds of things. It's kind of like when you read a book and you all of a sudden, you create in your mind a picture of what somebody looks like, and. And then all of a sudden, they make a movie out of the book, and it's like, wait, that's not who that person looks like.

They should have hired me to do the casting.

Exactly so. Or, you know, so it goes the other way around. Have you ever watched a movie first and then go and read the book, and then all of a sudden you're reading the book, and as you're hearing that character be described it, all of a sudden you're all you can think of is that actor that played that role in the movie. And so all of a sudden, because you went and saw. Because you actually got to see that person, hear that person, and experience their emotions through that movie, all of a sudden, now you feel more closely connected to them. So what's going on is they're reading. They're not just reading your blog post. They're listening to your voice. They actually hear when you say, oh, my gosh, this is so exciting. Or, man, this really Sucks. Let me just. I gotta tell you, man, this was the most horrific week I've ever had. I'm so stressed out. And let me tell you what I've learned as a result of this. And they hear the inflection in your voice. They hear your voice, the resonant. And by the way, they're also, 9 out of 10 people that I know are listening to our voice right now with either headphones on or these little earbuds or ear pods if they're Apple people and their most recent ones, our voice is in stereo, stuck down their ear canals. That's an intimate form of communication. And as a result of that, they really come to the place where instead of just having words, they get a whole fuller body picture of who we are. They're listening to us every single week for, you know, up to an hour every week. They never miss what we have to say. And they come to know, like, and trust us, and they feel like they know us. And that's why they can pour out their heart to us and start sending you feedback like they. Like they're your best friend.

Well, and that's why, gosh, if you're selling a service, and it's not just a service, you know, as freelancers, it's a relationship, it's a partnership, in many cases, there's got to be a high level of trust. And I just cannot imagine a better way to develop that with somebody before they've even contacted you. Because the moment they do contact you, they come, to a certain extent, pre sold on you. I'm not saying that they're ready to sign on the dotted line, but it's, man, it's like night and day between, you know, kind of the traditional way of doing it through written content and versus the spoken, spoken content.

Yeah, and you're absolutely right. And here's the deal. I love that you said that it's not pre sold. It takes some time. And by the way, you don't create a podcast and instantly have a thousand subscribers. And all of a sudden everything's changed after five weeks. And now everybody's ready to buy from you. Because just like somebody who's just found your blog, if all. You know, one of the things that I like to do when I go to a blog, I like to look at the archives on the left hand side or right hand side and say, okay, how long have they been blogging since how many people are leaving comments on this thing? I like to kind of look and see what kind of social proof is there. And so all of a sudden, if I come along, somebody who actually sounds really amazing, their podcast, and they have 13 episodes. Well, that tells me they've been at this for 13 weeks, you know, and by the way, 13 weeks is pretty impressive. You know, I start to take people serious right around there. But I'll tell you what, I really start to take people serious when I see that every Single week for 100 weeks, they've been creating a podcast about this. And when you get around 200 episodes, when you get. And by the way, that's what you can say, man, there's not a single person out there. They may hate me, but there's not a single person out there that can go to my website and see that I have 370 episodes devoted to answering people's questions and. And helping people take their message to the next level through audio podcasting. Nobody can ever say Cliff's not passionate about this. He's been doing it for 370 weeks, for an hour, every week.

So true. So true. So here's what. Here's another question might be going through a listener's mind right now. This sounds great. I already am committed to a blog, which you said was great. Might even have a newsletter. Does it make sense for me to add yet another piece of content, another type of content? Should I really start podcasting at this point? That's a lot of time.

It is a lot of time, and I think it's one of the greatest investments that you can make. I do think that you should blog. Although I will tell you this. I've actually discovered since I started podcasting, I pretty much just try to turn my show notes into as much of a blog post as possible. And I do make it a point to want to desire to create at least one blog post every single month, a minimum of one. Oftentimes, I kind of play. I cheat a little bit and make it a video blog post, because even that's more appealing to me than writing. The thing is, there's one thing that drives relationships to a level that no other platform can.

And.

And I believe it's my voice. You know, there's nothing I can say in a newsletter that carries the weight of my voice. And people say, well, gosh, Cliff, if you think that, well, eye contact and your facial and body expression even takes it to the next level, and you're absolutely right. And if you're cool with about 12 minutes of influence in their life every now and then, that's cool. But I don't know anybody out there that's going to give you an hour every single week and never miss an episode of your video. It's just not going to happen because of the screen time that's required. But men, you put out a 30 minute episode and you get and you deliver great content that they can't live without. And I'll tell you this, the people who find your podcast and love it will never miss an episode. You will become one of the most influential people in their lives. Think about this. Some people who do. Who. How many people, Ed, on a weekly basis do you literally let speak into your life for an hour every single week without fail? It's only the podcasters. And maybe.

But this is interesting because you're doing it when you're doing something else. It's a passive form of consumption. I will walk for 45 minutes. I will go to the gym. I will commute. I'm taking my kids to school.

Yep.

So on the way back home, that's podcast time. That's idle time.

Yeah, it's Cliff and Ed time.

Yeah, exactly. And in fact, you know, it's funny you say that because. So you and I just met for the first time this past weekend in Dallas at a conference, and it's the weirdest thing to just shake somebody's hand and give them a big hug. And it's like you've known each other. It's like I've known you forever, but I haven't. I have never physically met you, but I. I haven't experienced that with people who I didn't, you know, didn't have a podcast and I just, you know, I was reading their stuff. Right. So with you and others that I met at the conference that I've listened to forever, it's as if you know Mike Stelzner. I've known Mike for 11 years.

Yeah.

And I've just met him for the first time in person.

Exactly.

So, all right, so let's say that I'm really thinking about doing this. And can you walk me through kind of the basic steps for launching a podcast, getting something set up and just getting it out there?

Sure. Well, first, I want to tell people, if anybody's ever told you that podcasting is easy, they lied to you. There are easy ways to do it, and I recommend that you try to avoid the easy stuff, because I tried all the easy stuff and I made a lot of mistakes along the way that I wish I wouldn't have done. But let me just give you a breakdown of the basics. It is a simple process, but it's just not an easy one. So here, here's the simple process. Basically, what you need is a microphone or some method of recording your voice in audio form. Step number one, step number two is taking that audio file and then converting it and creating it as an MP3 audio file. All right? That is the most common audio file that exists today and will work on, I think, practically every audio media playback device in existence. I don't know anything that won't play an MP3 file. So then what you do is you have to have some mechanism to make that MP3 file available to people and so that they can get it and have it delivered to them. So the third thing is to take that MP3 file and upload it somewhere on the Internet. Now, a lot of people are tempted to say, you know what? I have this hosting account with this web hosting company. We don't even use a tenth of or even a 1% of what they allow us. So we're going to take our MP3 files and throw it up on our web host server. We've got plenty of space and plenty of bandwidth. Well, that's great until you realize that one day you might have 10,000 people listening to your podcast, and you might actually one day have 250 episodes that are all approximately 40 megabytes per episode. And you might one day be on Oprah's TV show, and you get maybe 100,000 people who say, you know what? This sounds pretty interesting. And out of 100,000 people, 15,000 of those people want to go download all 250 episodes of your 3040 megabyte files. And your website's not available when you're on Oprah, which would really suck. So here's the deal. Step number I think I'm on three or four. You upload this thing to what we call a media host, a hosting company that is designed for nothing other than delivering these big media files to large audiences. And also, the cool thing is it's a low flat monthly fee and you're never charged based on how many downloads there are. It's just absolutely awesome. Back in 2005, it didn't exist, and it really stunk for all of us when it didn't. So we're glad that these media hosting companies exist today. So you upload your mp3 file, and then there's this thing called RSS feeds, and I'm not going to go into the details of explaining RSS feeds for those who know what it is they already know and those who don't yet know what it is. Well, you have to decide you want to do a podcast before we go to the step of explaining it all to you. But an RSS is where people can actually subscribe to a feed that actually says, this is the latest, and this is the newest information I have available to you. And if there's something new, since the last time we checked it, we deliver you the file or make the. We tell you where the newest file is and your software can go and download it. So you have to have this thing called an RSS feed. It's easiest if you just put it on your WordPress website. And once you have recorded your voice, made an MP3, uploaded it to the Internet, and you have an RSS feed, then you submit yourself into the various podcast directories. There's only really four that count right now. There are more and more coming, but four that really matter, which is Apple, Microsoft, BlackBerry, and Stitcher Radio. If you're in those four places, I'm of the person, I'm of the type that says, some of it's build it, and they will come. And then I'm opposed to this mindset of just resting on build it and they will come. So you put it in there. And if your podcast is devoted to a niche topic that people are searching for actively, you'd be shocked to learn that by your fifth episode, you might have 70 or 80 people who just happened to find you. You didn't actually do anything other than just put yourself in a directory and bam, all of a sudden, somebody found you. Now, of course, from there, people, once they find you, they click a little button to hit subscribe. And every time you put. Every time you record your voice, turn it into an MP3, put it on the. On your web host, and then update your website, which updates your RSS feed. Every single time you do those four steps, everybody who is subscribed to you instantly is notified, and they can then listen to your most recent episode whenever it is convenient to them. That's how it works.

Okay, perfect. I mean, I kind of understand all that, but it's a lot and I know. And tell me if you still have it up. So the way I launched my podcast and I was able to get through all this because I'm not a technical person, was you had a podcasting tutorial online. It's free. It's a series of videos. Do you still have that up there?

I do. You can go to learnhowtopodcast.com again, that's learnhowtopodcast.com and if you were somewhat technical. Even if you're just a novice, you could probably learn how to podcast without ever needing anything more than that.

Yeah, that's what I used, and it was perfect for me. Guys, I got to tell you, again, I'm not a very technical person. Between me and Crystal Coleman, my VP of operations, we were able to do it very quickly.

Yep.

So, okay, so let's talk about frequency. You know, great. Is there a frequency? Do I need. Do I need to be consistent? How often should I podcast?

I do think consistency is very important because you do have the opportunity to be a regular part of people's lives. And the more consistent you are in speaking into their lives, the more influence you will have. And this is hopefully used for good. Obviously, everything. This isn't just about making money and. And growing our business, but literally, we have the opportunity to have a positive impact in the lives of people who listen to our show. And if you want to have the maximum impact for all the things, all the goals associated, associated with your podcast, people are going to come to expect you to be there on whatever schedule you consistent you have consistently released on. So, for example, my show is recorded on Thursday, and I publish the show every Thursday. If it's Friday afternoon and I have not yet put Thursday's episode on there, I typically get about 70 or 80 emails asking me if there's some kind of problem.

Wow.

So that's what people expect. They expect it to be there. And by the way, you're asking frequency how often? It depends on who you talk to. Some people will tell you if you want the maximum impact and get to the highest ranking and ratings in itunes, then having a daily podcast gives you more downloads, which helps you in the algorithms to get at the top. Well, if that's your goal, I really don't have a whole lot of interest in talking to you, honestly. But the reality is, if you want to have the greatest amount of impact in people's lives and you want to get to the place where you have a loyal audience who will never miss an episode of your show, they may get three weeks behind on your show because their life gets a little crazy, but they're never going to delete those episodes and they're going to look for an opportunity to listen to all three episodes they're behind on and then get back to going. I mean, with podcasting, the average podcast subscriber would rather unsubscribe from your show than to miss an episode.

I agree with that. I'm the same way.

Exactly.

I will confirm that. Yep.

So the thing is, is what you want to make sure is that you do not overfeed your audience. And I really do believe. And here's the other thing about an audience, the podcast audience, the people who find your show and love your show, you may be the first podcast that they have ever found. But once they've actually understood what the world of podcasting offers to them, you will not be the only podcast that they subscribe to. And so try to avoid the desire to give them two, three, four, or even seven episodes a week. Give them one, basically, give them one that will change their life and make it better, and then leave them wanting more from you. And that opens up the door and the opportunity for other people to speak into their lives and other areas that they may need to take things to the next level. And if you do it one episode per week, and by the way, 20 minutes, don't go less than 20 minutes if you can avoid it. Because there's nothing worse than actually saying, you know what? I'm going to do the dishes. It's going to probably take me about 25, 30 minutes here. There's nothing worse than starting the dishes. You get your wet hands or you're driving the car, or you're mowing the lawn and you have to stop what you're doing and after seven minutes and go find something new to listen to. Give them at least 20 minutes of content, because they're probably doing something that's at least 20 minutes in duration. And just know this, you know, there is no rules. You can, you don't have to stay, you know, 22 minutes every single week. Your show can be 28 minutes one week and 39 minutes the next week. But try to stay relatively consistent. It doesn't matter how long your show is. It can be anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour. But try to actually not do 20 minutes one week, an hour next week, 90 minutes the next week, 13 minutes the next week. Try to. Consistency is important. So whatever you're going to do, I recommend weekly and I recommend 20 to 40 minutes. But whatever of those two that you choose, try to stay relatively consistent, even in the time frame and the length of time.

So one thing that people need to understand, which I didn't until I started listening to podcasts, is the podcast apps on a smartphone will actually recognize where you stopped. So let's say that Someone's commute is 20 minutes, but your show is 40 minutes. It'll stop there. And next time they get back in the car and have the Opportunity to resume. It will pick up where you left off. That is the brilliance. That's what I think. That's a game changer, I believe, because if it didn't do that, then your show really would kind of need to match these life events, right?

Yep.

But it does. I mean, I find myself in the mornings, I'll listen to something, and sometimes I'll pick it up during a walk, midday, but sometimes I won't pick it up till the next day. And it remembers. I mean, if I have to remember where I left off, forget it.

Here's the deal. I work from home. My commute is about three and a half minutes. And so I will start listening to Dan Miller's podcast. It's called 48 Days to the Work youk Love, and it's generally 48 minutes in length. I might listen to it on my walk down to my office, and as soon as I'm here, I turn it off and I'm answering emails. And then I might go upstairs to grab myself a snack for seven minutes. And by golly, I put my earbuds in. And I do not walk upstairs without my earbuds in. Listening to the next little segment, you know, little portion that I can consume of that podcast. And I basically, it might take me, you know, a majority of the day to get through all 48 minutes, but, man, that's how I consume, you know, all day long in every little break I had throughout the day. Dan Miller's talking to me today.

Wow, guys, I hope if you walk away with anything, I mean, the impact you can have on your audience can be significant. And I think if you don't listen to podcasts today, my recommendation is, hey, before you don't make any commitments yet, Listen to some podcasts, subscribe to some podcasts, become part of the audience first and see how other people are doing it. And I think you'll quickly start to understand the impact you can have and why. It's where Cliff and I are getting goosebumps right now just talking about it.

Right, Exactly.

Well, Cliff, before we wrap up, any final words of wisdom? Any. Any parting thoughts?

You know, here's the deal. I realize that we're talking to business folks, people who have products or services they want to sell to other businesses and stuff like that. I love the one thing you pulled out is like, these are businesses, but businesses are owned and operated and managed by human beings. And don't over. Don't underestimate the idea of the fact that you can have a positive impact on the lives of another on the life of another human being by sharing your voice and your words. And try not to make everything about your show all business. Let your human side shine through. Be willing to be a little transparent and authentic and don't feel like you have to be the absolute world's greatest authority and expert and you have all the answers in your show. Be willing to say, this is who I am. This is what I've experienced. This is where I am today. These are the struggles that I have faced, these are the things that I've learned, these are the struggles I'm facing now. This is where I want to go in life. Be willing to be a real human being. And I will tell you what one thing I have learned are the people who are most successful in any aspect of life are the ones who basically can be easily related to. And so that's one of the things I will just recommend people do, is just be yourself and don't feel like you have to be the great quote unquote expert that everybody. You have to put on that mask that you know all the answers, man.

Right on, brother. Right on. Cliff, where can listeners learn more about you? I'm of course going to include links to the tutorials, but where can I send them?

You know what, if you want to just know a little bit more about my journey and my story and how I went from hobby to full time career, head over to podcastanswerman.com/about. And there's a video there that is a talk that I did a couple years ago and it basically tells you the story and the transition of how I started podcasting as a hobby. And it goes into a lot more detail about some of the interesting stories that got me to the place where I'm able to do what I do full time.

It's not over 12 minutes, is it?

Yes, it is actually.

Just messing with you. That's awesome, Cliff.

But you know why the people would actually listen to it where they would have never listened to, listened to it or watched the whole thing before? Because they spent the last 50 minutes hearing my voice and it's had a positive impact on them. And now they're willing after hearing my voice to go watch the video.

I couldn't agree more. I've noticed that once you have that relationship with someone, even after 50 minutes, I mean, you've gotten to know somebody.

They already love me, Ed. Yes, they do.

Guys, go check out Cliff's stuff. It's fantastic. He's got a great story and man, I really mean this. It really has been an honor to have you here, Cliff. I appreciate you sharing your insights with my audience and being so generous with your time.

Thanks for the opportunity, Ed.

Well, folks, I hope you can see.

Why I am just so high on podcasting.

And listen, I know some of you.

Are thinking, I don't know, that's just not for me. I urge you to give this some thought. You know, I. I know that I'm not going to convince everybody here, but I'm telling you, you know, if you're gonna do something, I think you should do something soon. The opportunity to get in, get a little bit of traction, get noticed is now before more and more people get into the podcasting realm, which is happening very, very quickly. I wanted to remind you that you can grab the details show notes for this episode at B2B launch forward slash episode 59 and I just have a quick announcement for you guys today. Enrollment for my B2B business launcher program is closing tomorrow and that's Friday 12th September. If you're a new or aspiring B2B or commercial writer, this program might be for you. I'm going to personally work with you to get your business launched, to land a client or two by November and to create serious momentum heading into 2015. And here's the thing, folks. If you're trying to get your writing business off the ground, you don't need more information. What you really need is an actionable plan that works and with that, coaching and mentoring to help you get results fast. And that's what B2B business launcher is all about.

It's a proven program.

We work very hard, but we focus exclusively on results. This is for people who are tired of trying things out on their own and not getting the results they want. And they're ready for big time results. They're ready to really get going in their business. Enrollment is by application only and you can get all the details by visiting b2b launcher.com program info. So that brings us to the end of the episode. I am your host, Ed Gandia. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have an awesome day.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.