#068: Heather Lloyd-Martin on SEO Copywriting

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Thank you for joining me for episode 68 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this podcast is for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find detailed show notes for this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 68 so today we're talking about a hot topic in the field of commercial writing. And it's a topic that's been hot for a long time and that's the topic of SEO copywriting. And to do that, I've brought in one of the world's top authorities on the subject, Heather Lloyd Martin. Heather has been writing, studying, and teaching SEO copywriting for quite a few years. In fact, she got started before SEO copywriting was a real topic of conversation in the marketing community. And in this interview, she's going to give us an overview of the SEO copywriting opportunity, including what SEO copywriting entails, how it has changed over the past 10 years, how Google's big changes have impacted our ability to optimize web pages, how you can manage client expectations in an environment of black hat or not so reputable SEO practitioners, the best sources of information for SEO copywriters, and even the best opportunities for SEO copywriters today. And that's just a summary and a glimpse of what she'll be hitting on. There's much more in this interview. So anyway, let's bring her her on the show and I hope you enjoy it. Hey Heather, welcome to the show. It's so great to finally have you here.

Hey, thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate it.

You know, it's, it's funny. I asked my kind of my peeps on Facebook, I said, you know, I'm looking for some great guests out there. Who should I, who should I interview? Who should I approach? And your name came up, I think twice.

Oh, that's sweet. Thank you.

So I said, you know what, I've known of Heather for a long time. I've never met you personally, but we run in many of the same circles and I need to put an end to that. We need to get you on the show.

That's great. I really appreciate it.

For those who don't really know about you or don't know what you do, why don't you start by telling us a Little bit about yourself and your business.

Awesome. Well, folks usually associate me with SEO copywriting. I know we'll be getting into more about what that means, but I have been working in the SEO copywriting space before Google was even a search engine. We are coming up to almost 17 years now, which is amazing when I think that I've been doing it that long. Prior to that, I worked as a print copywriter pretty much my entire life. I have been involved in writing content or teaching people how to write content, whether that be for print print advertising or writing spec sheets for industrial companies, all the way up to what I do now, which is pretty much all the online world. So for the folks out there that are wondering, wow, can you be a copywriter that long? Yes. Yes. Apparently you can.

So 17 years. That's pretty amazing. I've heard of, you know that that's, that's, that's a lot in Internet and.

Probably like 25 years if I want to get into just straight copywriting and not counting and including the online world. Yeah.

Wow. Okay. Okay. So you're certainly not a newbie to the whole online copywriting world in search engine optimization. But you know what? Let's start there. Let's talk about SEO copywriting. What it is, what it entails, especially for those who know a little bit about it, but not entirely sure.

Right, Right. Where I like to start off with is what SEO copywriting is not. It gets a really bad rap. In a way, it's kind of like the used car salespeople of the web in terms of how people perceive it. Because a lot of times people think, o, okay, well, that just means you take some words and you shove it into the content and you do it over and over to the point where Google realizes, all right, so this page is about Honda fits or blue widgets or whatever it is that you're optimizing the page for. That's never been true. I don't know why it's gotten such popular attention like that, but it's never been true. What it really is is SEO copywriting is just another subset of really good content writing of Stu that we have learned to do and that we practice every day of. You write for your reader. You make sure that what you're doing is telling a story, whether you're writing a sales page or a blog post or whatever that may be. The difference is the tweak is, in a way, you're kind of writing for two target audiences. And granted, you're focusing the majority of your attention on your readers. But you're also adding in these elements to be able to help give Google signals about what the page is about. And of course, other search search engines too. But we all focus on Google. That does mean that you are doing key phrase research and adding some words into content, but it's not done in a way that makes that content read funny or sound repetitive. Everything flows really nicely in a way. You're just making that page more specific. For folks that have been afraid that, oh, it's too technical, I'm never going to learn it. Certainly there are some technical aspects to SEO writing, but it's stuff that you can easily learn once you realize that SEO writing has its own geeky terminology for things. Once you master that terminology and figure out these other little things that you need to do and add those into your pages, then you're fine. I have seen old grizzled print copywriters who have been in the print trenches for 20, 30 years and used to doing it that way, learn how to master and really thrive once they learn how to do the SEO copywriting stuff. It's a really fun thing to learn and certainly something that's in demand.

See if this is a fair statement or an evaluation. My perception of why it's gotten such a bad rap is that for many years, Google hadn't really cracked the code, or at least the full code. It was a way to game the system, or at least that was a perception. There's a combination of that and then the fact that people by nature, I think, love formulas and they love systems and processes. And there are a lot of people out there selling this, you know, this supposed truth that there was, you know, if you learn this system, you can game Google and you can get, you know, anything up there in the search engine rankings. And I think that, well, at least this is my perception. So this is what I'm hoping for, that you can clarify. This is there seemed to be some truth to that and a lot of people were falling for that. So maybe something that was well written wasn't good enough when looked at it with kind of the SEO spectacle. So, well, wait a minute. But you got to change this and that and move these things around in order to game the system. I mean, is that, is that a fair statement? Do you think there was a lot of that going on?

There was a time in Google's history, and this was a few years ago, that pages that were very poorly written where you would have the word Honda fit repeated over and over throughout the page would rise up to the top of the search results. And there was a major outcry against that because certainly those well written articles were getting pushed down, not all of them, but some of them pushed down in search results pages. And what was up there wasn't relevant to what users were looking for. They would have what is called in the industry high bounce rates, which would be you would click on a listing in the search results page, you would go to the corresponding landing page on a site and immediately boogie out because you could tell the content was poor. There was a time that those techniques worked, but it was a really short lived time. Google today has rolled out brand new algorithms and an entirely different way of looking at content to where that's not possible anymore. In fact, what they're doing is they're looking at sites and trying to determine are they an authority in a particular topic. If you are authority, that is taken into consideration with the algorithm. But within SEO and search engine optimization in general as an industry, and it kind of trickles down to SEO writing, is that it's a lot like losing weight. What do you need to do if you want to lose weight? Well, you need to eat less, exercise more, then you'll lose weight. But there's always these people that come up with these lose weight fast types of solutions where if you take a pill, if you eat grapefruits all day, if you do X, Y and Z, you can have that result that you want and cut through all of the hard work. People love those kinds of solutions. It's the same with SEO. People are looking for that magic bullet and they are looking for that short way to be able to get from point A to point Z and do it very quickly. When they hear providers say, oh well, we can do that by building 1,000 backlinks, or we have some proprietary system, or we are supposed supposedly a friend of Google and we can give you the stuff that other firms can't. Then unfortunately there are a lot of folks that will buy into that thinking, oh, this is the way that we can do it and not have to do the hard work. They might get rewarded in a very short term, that they might see their rankings pop up, they might be getting some new traffic. But what has happened throughout Google history since the very, very beginning is that if there are any loopholes, if there sites like that that fall through the Google cracks and suddenly start positioning, Google will find them. And what ends up happening is that they just get rid of those sites from the index. Either they drop the rankings down so low that they are never found, or they might dump the site entirely. And those sites have to go back in and try to tell Google, hey, we're really sorry we tried to spam you. It never works out for those companies, but certainly there always have been those companies that promote the, we can do this faster for you. And unfortunately, that kind of gets mixed in with SEO writing as well.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm still seeing that out there, and not as much as I used to years ago, but it's obviously still happening. So I'm curious, you know, since Google has gotten much, much better at really preventing people from gaming system, because it sounds like what's really happening is they're creating a truer sense of relevancy. Right. And they're. They've gotten a lot better. So how is that impacting the ab for SEO copywriters to help their clients?

It's actually been a really positive thing for SEO writers, the good SEO writers who know what they're doing and are able to help their clients because they can now walk into a client and say, you've got a really great product or service, you've got a pretty good website, but what you don't have is that authority. You might not be kicking out blog posts or your sales pages are such written in a way that they're not really positioning, they're not really converting whatever that main issue is. They can really help with that company's online presence. They can start creating those blog posts that not only are really well written, but things that get shared in social media. With those shares come natural links coming back to the site that introduces new people to the product and service and drives that traffic to be able to rewrite those sales pages in a way that if they weren't positioning before, we'll be able to position. I worked with a client and I wrote a blog post about this where the client was doing everything right in terms of they were blogging, they were podcasting, they had written books, they were really well known within their field, but their site wasn't optimized, it wasn't positioned. You would think that these people would naturally get top rankings. That wasn't happening for them. I like to throw out this argument too. For people who say, oh, SEO is dead, you don't need to worry about SEO writing. Google will figure it out. As soon as they started getting their site optimized and the writer was able to come in and make these changes to their blog posts and their sales pages, everything that needed to be done, suddenly they were starting to position, just like they were supposed to. So it can be really, really powerful for sites and a really great thing for writers to be able to go in and say, I can help you, and certainly you can. And that directly impacts the client's bottom line. It's a really fun thing to see when a site's rankings unlocked and they're getting the traffic that they hadn't been getting for months or sometimes years.

So can you tell us, and I know this is a big subject, but maybe you can give us a quick overview what's involved in optimizing a site? You know, you just mentioned how you help that client. So what was involved in helping them go up a few notches considering everything else they were doing that they were doing right.

The first step was key phrase research. That the way that they were describing their products and their services was in a way that internally they knew what they were talking about. Someone who might have been in their industry might have known what they were talking about, but they weren't using those words that Google was looking for to be able to position them for their main topics. It was a very interesting dilemma. So the key phrase research immediately helped unlock some words and phrases that could be used on the site that weren't there before. Then going through those pages and finding out, okay, this page is relevant for these words, let's make sure to pepper them throughout the page headlines and sub headlines throughout the blog posts, as well as taking care of what people like to call the geeky part of SEO writing, which are the titles, the blue clickable link on the search results page, as well as adding some meta descriptions. Certainly this was very low hanging fruit. This wasn't getting involved in major competitive analysis and trying to figure out some sort of backlink strategy. This was just low hanging fruit where we were able to look at the page, realize what was missing, and start adding again those signals to Google to be able to say, hey, this is what the page is about, this is what the site is about. Please position us accordingly. And that's exactly what happened in this case. The rankings started going up within a few days and certainly that's the best case scenario. It doesn't always happen like that. You can't control what Google does, blah, blah, blah. Disclaimer, disclaimer. But this was one of those happy situations where everything clicked along nicely and the client saw pretty much instant results.

I forget the terminology, but there is what on page and off page type variables. You did a lot of the on site or on page tweaks to get the low hanging fruit. So I'm curious, what are you seeing today? How important is it to make those tweaks throughout the site versus get incoming links into the site, which are things that you can't necessarily control as an SEO copywriter.

Right. And certainly links are important quality links. It's not necessarily the quantity of them, but if you can get a really great link from a blog or an authority site, that can help. Help. But people like to chase the links a lot of times because in some cases the latest greatest shiny thing, it's like, oh, we'll get a lot of good links and quality links and we'll point back to the site. It's always been like that. But at the end of the day, what people are pointing to is they're pointing to your site's content, they're pointing to a blog post that was really well written and helped answer a question, or they're pointing to an authority site because they're saying this site has all the information that you need to know about X. When you can focus on the stuff that you can control, which is that on page optimization and that content, that is when the other stuff helps to naturally fall into place. Because when you have that great content, it's a lot easier to go to a blogger who is a major influencer and say, hey Bob, I wrote this post that I think that your readers may be interested in. If it feels right to you, could you mention it or linked to it in a roundup that you do, or your next post or however that works. And that's when that magic happens. But if you're writing so so content in the first place, no one's going to link to you because a link is basically a recommendation and no one is going to recommend content that is at best, so, so, so this is where I've always said that writers are the best SEOs. In fact, Seth Godin said the same thing. Writers make the best SEOs. Because we can sort of control this process of making sure that the site is good enough and tight enough and with the readers to where people will want to link to it and recommend it and share it with their friends and everything else that we want to happen with a website.

It sounds like we're really kind of going back to what Google was intended for in the first place. Right. Is relevant, quality content.

Exactly, exactly. And making sure that within that content, which goes back to direct response copywriting, is that you clearly define how you're different from the competitors, you take a different tact, and how you report things and how you write things. So that way everything you write has its own unique personality and brand voice and that helps you get noticed.

I'm wondering when I was doing a lot of web copywriting and I still do, in fact, I'm working on a client's site right now. There seemed to be two different camps. There were the people who were SEO trained copywriters and those who didn't really talk about SEO. So how do you feel? How important do you feel it is to be an SEO trained copywriter if you're promoting yourself as writing web copy.

In today's world, it's a really, really big deal. And last year when I wrote my content roundup of here's what you need to focus on for 2014, that's one of the things I stressed and there's a few reasons for for this. The first one is it just kind of goes back to client economics, is that if you don't know what you're doing and you're just writing web copy, no matter how good of a writer you are, then if you don't know how to create a title, create the meta description, do the key phrase research, add it to the pages. All the things that go into SEO copy, what happens on the client side is they have copy that might be wonderfully well written, kind of like my clients, but won't position. That puts the client in a position of having to contact an SEO firm or another SEO writer to go back and fix that work. It makes no sense for a client to hire someone who doesn't have that SEO training because they will need to go through that extra steps, which is expensive and time consuming. The benefit for the writer is that if you know how to do both, that's one of the things that you can do to sell your services to the client is say, hey, I can do both for you and you don't need to worry about about it. But probably what I think is almost more important, or at least very much of equal importance, is that the rules, and I'm making air quotes that nobody can see since this is a podcast of SEO writing has changed over time. Google, as we talked about, has changed the way that they look at things. And there are certain things that we've done back in the day that that now are looked at as maybe not the best techniques, maybe not spammy necessarily, but there are other ways that we do things now. Links are a prime example. You need to know how to link things in the right way, both externally and both internally on your site. People look at that, Google looks at things like press releases much differently. Guest post is much, they look at that much differently. Used to be that you could send out posts, posts everywhere online, get those links back to your site and that was a happy thing. Now, not so much. If you do not know what you're doing and if you're not keeping up with the latest and greatest, what happens is you put not only your own site but your client's site at risk. By at risk, I mean like I talked about with previous examples, Google might not position the site. If Google finds that what's been going on is considered spammy, then they could downgrade the site's rankings or kick most of the pages out of the index. So it's not a happy type of thing. Unfortunately you can't go to Google and say, oh shoot, I didn't know. It's like telling a police officer, hey, I didn't know that this was only a 25 mile an hour zone and I was going 35. The cop is going to say, yes, I understand. So sorry for you. Here's your ticket. Same thing happens with Google. Google will say, geez, I'm so sorry for you. Now you have to go through a manual reincl issue in order to get us to pay attention to your site again. It's really, really important. I see copywriters every day use outdated techniques and their attitude is, well, hey, I know this SEO writing stuff. I keep up on forums or I learned this a long time ago so I should be good if I'm still learning and I've been doing this about 17 years. 16, 17 years. Then everyone else I'm sure is still learning as well. The more the industry changes and morphs and the more intelligent Google gets about how they're positioning pages, then that gives us more opportunities to help our own sites and our clients. But we got to keep up. You got to keep up with the game if you want to keep playing.

Well, how do you manage clients expectations in an environment where, I mean, unfortunately I'm still seeing there's a lot of unscrupulous SEO practitioners out there. So if you're positioning yourself as, look, you need an SEO copywriter and you're building up that value. I totally get that and I think it makes sense. How do you manage that then? Higher expectation of, well, I expect you to then get me on the first page.

Right? And this has been going on since the very beginning of Google time. There are the clients out there that will say, well, XYZ firm has guaranteed A top five ranking. Why can't you do the same same? Why can't you guarantee that we're going to get rankings at all? Blah, blah, blah. Fortunately, Google has said on their site that no firm can guarantee a number one ranking or a top ranking. It's in the Google Webmaster guidelines and it's something that you can certainly Google and read and it's there to help clients do their due diligence of who they hire. That's always good if you have that kind of client. Now, if you've got a client that's doing of a lot lot or excuse me, a prospect that's doing a lot of that kickback at the very beginning and they haven't signed on the dotted line yet, there's a certain amount of education that comes into play, but that's someone that you may want to pass on because they're always going to be looking for, in my experience, they're always going to be looking for that shortcut of how to get better rankings and possibly doing things that sabotage all the great work that you're doing. But there's always those other clients that what they need is the education because they are getting pinged by folks that are promising them huge ranking boosts, great conversion rates, whatever. That sometimes takes some time where when you are going through the sales process and even when they sign on the dotted line that you are able to send them links to blog posts and to articles that discuss discuss what SEO writing is and isn't what you can control, which is the writing, the words on the page with the process that you go through versus what you can't. If you have a client that says, hey, I'm concerned about the key phrase density on this page. I don't see it as 8.9% read in this blog post. That's what it should be. Then you have the opportunity to send that client about 100 other blog posts that say, hey, key phrase density is dead. It's never really been a factor. You can let this one go, that helps. There are those clients that will never have ever been educated and that's kind of sad, but the majority of folks, I find they're very confused. There's a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt around Google rankings. And one thing that SEO copywriters have turned into, and this has been something over the last few years, is that you're not a lot of times just doing the writing. You are also there, especially when you have more training and more skills, skills as like their consultant where you're Trying to teach them everything around SEO. And certainly this is something that you can set up to be billable, where you are educating them about what's real, what's possible, what's not, and sometimes working in conjunction with an actual SEO firm and helping them get the rankings that they want. That education will always come into play. I've seen it with small companies and I've seen it with big brands as well. But as long as you're keeping up with things and you can go and reference those blogs and articles and everything else, you should be fine. And big brands as well. But as long as you're keeping up with things and you can go and reference those blogs and articles and everything else, you should be fine. Even Google. There's a guy named Matt Cutts who works for Google as distinguished engineer and speaks a lot about SEO techniques. It's kind of liaison for the SEO. He has a channel on YouTube where he will dispel a lot of myths. When people listen to Google talk about what works and what doesn't, that can be the best education at all because no one ever argues with Google.

What's the guy's name again?

Matt Cutts. It's C U T T S. Okay.

We'Ll definitely look that up and link to it in the show notes. Yeah, and that makes sense. It's. I've always gotten the impression that it's very similar to you're coming in there as a consultant to motivate or a motivational speaker, let's say, right. You're hired by a company to motivate their sales force and there's only so much you can do. Right. So you have tools, you have techniques and exercises, but really, at the end of the day, a lot of that is out of your control. So it sounds, I think there's a lot of similarities there. It sounds like you really, I agree with, with you on the education part. Making sure that the client understands that it's not your full responsibility, that there are limitations to what you can do. A lot of that really depends on them and a lot of it, but I shouldn't say a lot, but some of it is really up to Google. I mean, and you know, they're changing the way they do this a lot. Right. Because some things that they've made some, some huge changes over the past five years that, that have changed the rules and have changed the way that what used to work doesn't work work anymore.

Exactly, exactly. That's really important for clients to know as well as knowing that the SEO Writing is one part of the pie. If you were hired to revise their sales pages and then they have a blog that has been sitting there for a year and is only updated with the latest press release and no other information, the client should shouldn't come back on you and say, well, you changed these sales pages. But our rankings didn't move all that much because at the end of the day, to your point, Ed, it's what the client has to take responsibility for as well, which is they have a blog that's not being updated. Google isn't seeing them as an authority site. And until they get their acts together and start blogging more or doing more in terms of the content, they probably aren't going to see the positions they want.

This leads me to my next question, which is I've always been under the impression that SEO is one of those things you really have to stay on top of. You mentioned it yourself. You've been doing this for 17 years. You're still learning every day. I'm curious, first of all, would you agree with that statement? And second of all, what are the best sources of information for SEO writers to stay on top of all the developments and everything it's to be going on out there?

Julie Corac yeah, that's a great question. Yes, I would agree. You got to stay on top of it. Not just with SEO writing, but how the entire SEO digital marketing ecosystem works. It doesn't mean you need to be an expert in everything. Nobody is. But just to have an idea of what's going on with the news. And so if nothing else, if your clients ask you, you don't have that deer in the headlights look where you're like, oh, I didn't know about that look. Latest update, I will get back to you because that's never a good feeling. Really great publications to check in on. There is Search Engine Journal. Search Engine Watch is another good one. There is a LinkedIn group, which is the SEO copywriting LinkedIn group. Fair disclaimer. It's a group that I run, but it's a group that I also don't really need to actively run. There's about almost 10,000 people there that are all sharing the latest and greatest information and talking about what that means to their clients. That's something that I would certainly pay attention to. There's a company called Moz Moz and their CEO named Rand Fishkin will come up with what's called, I believe, the Whiteboard Fridays, where he'll be talking about some aspect of SEO it might be something that you don't deal with. It might be a little bit technical sometimes, but just to check in on those anyway. Even if you're understanding 25% of what comes out of Rand's mouth, that's fine. But it gives you a really good overview of stuff that's going on in the industry and a different view of how SEO and everything else that goes into digital play nicely together in how to drive traffic to your site. Certainly I would look at those types of really reputable sites first. I would stay away from believing everything you read in a forum because even if someone swears up and down that a technique that they're using has gotten them top rankings on everything that they've done, blah, blah, blah, the challenge is that you don't necessarily know that person or their history or what else they're doing with those sites. I've seen a lot of really good people get burned because they're paying attention to the forums and not paying attention to SEO experts that are pretty clear about what works, what doesn't. And they've tested things very, very extensively to make sure.

I thought if it was on the Internet it was true.

Well, of course that's true. Everything on the Internet should be free.

I guess. I got one more question for you here. I'm curious, curious to know if there are certain industries or markets or topics that offer a great opportunity for SEO copywriters today. Are you seeing some trends out there that people should pay attention to?

Definitely. First, I want to go back to the previous question, Search Engine Land, another great publication to check in on. To answer this one, Business to Business has been really slow to adopt anything digital and SEO. Certainly there have been some that are better than others. But to this day, I will talk to B2B companies who will say, we've never really gotten into optimization. We've maybe had a couple consultants come in and do some things, but we've never played with our copy, learned how to do all of this. When I get the customized training requests, they're typically coming from B2B companies that have been established for a long time time that make a lot of money. Their revenue numbers are high, but they are being outflanked by smaller, more nimble competitors who realize how important SEO is and have done everything they need to do to be able to optimize their site. So business to business is still very, very important. In terms of local, a lot of folks love working with local companies. That is still a pretty great place to be able to get clients. Certainly some People prefer to work with larger businesses because the paychecks tend to be larger. But local companies need help too. The way that Google is working with how they're displaying local and their my business listings, you've got the map and all the listings there, as well as the web listings, there's a way that those work together and the those local consultants, the folks that can come in and help companies with everything having to do with Google. That's a really spectacular opportunity there as well. I think in pretty much any industry, I haven't seen an industry that's tapped out yet for SEO writing. There are definitely opportunities there if you choose to take them. It might be a harder sell for some industries than others, but I think that pretty much every industry that I've talked with has felt the sting of. Maybe they've been established and around for a while, like the B2B's, but then they have a newer, more nimble company that's been chomping at their heels and starting to get those Google rankings where they had not gotten them or they used to have them, but they went away. If you can target what you're doing in terms of your marketing to those kinds of companies, it's definitely a pain point. And a lot of times the only reason nothing has been done is because they don't know what to do. They're so afraid of making a wrong move. They're so afraid of getting on Google's bad side that they do nothing at all. This is companies with large marketing departments that have a lot of smart people that you think that they would know better, but they don't. And they're waiting for someone to take them by the hand and say, don't worry about this, I've got it and I know exactly what to do next. And if you can be that solution provider to those clients, they will love you forever. Because that's exactly what they've been looking for. They've just been too afraid to take action.

Well, that's great news. Most of my audience are B2B writers, business writers and copywriters. So you know guys, that's right up your alley. So where can I send listeners who want to learn more about you, what you're up to to? You got some great resources out there. So tell us about that.

Awesome. Well, you can send folks to seocopywriting.com and I have a weekly newsletter where I am not only talking about the latest and greatest stuff, but I also bring up older posts that folks can read and start implementing right away a Lot of my blog posts are there to be actionable, not as a general theory about SEO or SEO writing. If you're looking for tips on how to make the content better for Google as well as click better with your audience, then I've meant for that to be a really great resource. I would also check out the LinkedIn SEO copywriting group, which I mentioned before, just because it is a really great way to network with other SEO writers. And if you have some sort of painful situation that's going on with a client, that's a simple, safe place for you to be able to share that. And certainly if you're looking for training, this is something that you've wanted to do for a long time but you haven't had the opportunity or you're just finally figuring out that this is something that you need to do, then I also have a certification training where it teaches you step by step how to work with Google, how to write the content, what is considered ethical and smart ways to do it versus the things that that aren't. So at the end of the process, then you're able to hit the ground running and to be able to write really persuasive copy that gets those great Google rankings, but also converts like crazy awesome.

Obviously we have to add your newsletter to the list of resources to check out. We'll link to all this in the show notes, but I encourage everyone to check us out. Look, you've obviously been doing this for a long time if you were able to get that URL, that domain name.

That's true.

So yeah, go check out Heather stuff. And Heather, thanks for coming on. This has been fantastic. You've enlightened me.

Thank you so much. And again, I appreciate you having me here. I've had a great time and listeners, thank you so much for listening to the podcast. It was great to meet you virtually through this. Thank you.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview and I wanted to remind you that you can grab those details show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 68 if you enjoyed this show, I would be very grateful if you decided to share it with a friend or a colleague. And if you're feeling particularly generous, you can always leave me a quick star rating or review in itunes by going to b2b launcher.com iTunes rumor has it that those who leave a rating or review for me will suddenly feel really great about themselves and might even win the lotto or get an unexpected large inheritance. So anyway, you didn't hear that from me, but that's just what I've heard. So that brings us to the end of the episode. I am your host, Ed Gandia. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have an awesome day.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.