#071: Should You Go Freelance If You're 55 or Older?

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Thank you so much for joining me for episode 71 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find detailed show notes to this episode by going to b2b. Launcher.com episode 71. You know, over the past, gosh, I would say about seven years or so since I started talking with a lot of new and aspiring freelance writers, I've had hundreds of conversations with people who are thinking about going solo, they're thinking about going freelance, but they are 55 or older and they're having a lot of reservations about making that kind of move at that stage in their life. And perhaps the most common concern I hear from this group is something along the lines of, you know, I'm just afraid that my age will prevent me from getting clients. And yeah, I can understand that fear. I can understand that concern. Especially if you've experienced age discrimination in the workplace. And many of the people who have approached me with that concern have experienced that they've been discriminated against, they've been laid off or downsized because of their age, even though of course, their employer would never admit that. But it was very clear to them that their age was a big factor in that experience. And here's what I have to tell you, and this is what I've shared with all of them, because I happen to know quite a few people in that age bracket who have done remarkably well. The good news is that you have, if you're 55 or older, you have more to offer your clients than you realize. And I'm not just blowing smoke here. I really believe that if you are 55 or older, you have a serious competitive edge over younger freelancers. And you have it in many different ways. You have more experience. It could be relevant business experience, it could be experience in just dealing with a lot of different things that people who are in their 20s or 30s or 40s haven't had to deal with, or at least not as much. You have more wisdom, you have more what I like to call perspective, which is kind of the combination of all those things. You know, you have, you, you have something you cannot teach someone overnight. And that, my friends, is, is something that, you know, in this business is so incredibly Important. Just ask people who are doing well. Ask people who are doing well, who are 55 or older, and they will, they will tell you that that is true. And you don't have to take my word for it. I have brought someone to this episode who can share her experience herself. This is someone. Her name is Catherine Andes and she is a California based web content developer and SEO writer. And she is someone who went out on her own 12 years ago at the age of 54. You know, that's a very scary thing to do. She was the sole breadwinner. Still is. And, you know, she took a chance. And I've had Katherine on the show before. It's been, gosh, it's been over a year. But she approached me recently because she knows that this is a big issue and she wanted to tell her story and she wanted to share what she's learned from this journey and hopefully inspire a few of you guys out there who are listening to this right now who are trying to make that decision or who have maybe, maybe they made that decision recently and are wondering if it was the wise thing to do. So, you know, it's. It's one thing for me to say it, but it's something else for someone like Katherine to say it. So I'm not going to keep babbling here. Let's get right to it. I think you're going to get a lot out of this. And you know what, if you're not 55 or older, let's say you're in your 30s, 40s, it doesn't matter. I really urge you to listen to this. I know you'll walk away with a few nuggets and a few insights. So anyway, let's bring Katherine on. Hey, Kathryn, welcome back to the show. Great to have you back.

Oh, thank you, Ed. I'm really happy to be back, too.

So before we get to today's topic, just for you know, you were here, gosh, about a year ago on the show talking about SEO copywriting, and I'll include a link in the show notes to that episode. But give us a little bit of background, tell us what you do today, and then we'll kind of rewind a little bit and talk about how you got here.

Okay. Well, I'm a web content developer and it means that I've developed a business, a consulting business, basically, around my core skills of writing and doing some SEO work. And so I work mostly with small clients and local regional clients, and I help them refresh their websites for the most part. Sometimes I help Them with brand new websites, planning them, I don't necessarily build them. Occasionally I do a very simple site, but mostly I will work with other web technical developers and I'll feed them the content and work with a client and that kind of thing.

And how long have you been doing this?

I've been doing this since 2008, but I started my freelance writing business in 2003, so it didn't. I did about five years of thrashing around before I settled in on the web content development.

So let's go there. Let's talk about kind of when you were getting started and what made you go into freelancing. I mean, did you plan this? Why did you do this?

Oh, well, I have, I'm older and let's see, I had spent a number of years in the corporate world and then I had my children late in life, in my late 30s. And once I had kids I really wanted to stay home with them. So I stayed home with them. And I'm such a control freak that I homeschooled them as well. And during that period when my children were young, my husband passed away, so I was a widow. And during that time I had enough money that I knew I could get through the kids education, get them off to college. But I knew I was going to have to go back to work. And by the time I had to go back to work, I was 54. And in the area that I lived in, I didn't think that there was much in the way of job opportunities for a 54 year old that would provide the kind of income that, you know, I could live comfortably on. So I had read back in the 90s that writing skills were going to be in demand. So all the time that I was homeschooling my kids, I was always reading grammar. You know, I was reading grammar books to help them, but I was really studying those grammar books. I wanted to make sure because I knew my grammar was really, really bad. And even though I had been professionally writing like columns for newspapers, I'd always kind of leaned on my editors to help me with grammar problems. So I always knew I wanted to do something in the business world with writing, but my ideas were kind of vague. And so when I launched my business, it was with the kind of vague, oh, I'm going to help business executives with proposals and their letters and things like that. And so I ended up going off in a lot of different directions like I did. I did do a little bit of letter writing for business execs, I did some newsletters I did some grant writing, and I did some magazine editing, small local magazine lifestyle magazine editing. So I did resumes. So I was kind of all over the map. And this web thing kept coming up and just.

And I know people can kind of do the math, so I'm sorry that they can maybe kind of figure out how old you are.

But, yeah, I'm 65 now.

All right, all right. So let's just get that out in the open. But at the time, you were 54. Tell me what was going through your head, because you knew it was going to be hard. We figured it'd be difficult to get a traditional job because of your age and because. Also because you'd been out of the workforce for a while. Correct?

Right, right.

And so. So you're. You're out there. You're, you know, maybe not calling yourself a freelancer, but essentially you are a freelancer. You're trying to get business. You know, like, what's going through your head at that point? Are you enthusiastic? Are you fearful? You know, what. What was going on and what. What did you encounter? Because I think this is where I'm going with this is. I think a lot of people at that point in their lives, and I'm. I'm. I'm not there yet, but I do hear from a lot of people in their 50s and 60s who are going out on their own. They're afraid of, you know, gosh, am I even going to be in demand? I mean, even. Even as a freelancer, you know, because it's. It seems pretty bloody out there.

Yeah, I was really afraid, but I knew I was a really good writer. I had been published in national publications. I didn't make a lot of money at it. That's why I didn't go in that, you know, venue. But I been published with really good writers, so I knew I could write. So I think that, you know, I knew there had to be a way to make money with it. I wasn't sure how, but I just knew there had to be a way to make money with it. I did have a lot of insecurities. I did not consider copywriting because it was a really weird, stupid reason. My brother had an ad agency in Los Angeles, and he knew I was a writer, but he never. So I assumed it was because he thought I was a bad copywriter. You know, I mean, it was just something I totally made up, you know.

Which goes to show, right. Look at the conversations going on in our heads, how sometimes it's just a story, it's a Story you're telling yourself.

Yeah, I had actually studied copywriting, like, really years and years before, so I knew a little bit about it. But, you know, I had kind of in the little bit that I had dabbled in copywriting when I was younger, I was not successful, so I kind of, you know, was carrying it forward, you know, and, you know, it was just really, really silly. So I did have a lot of insecurities, but I also knew I was a really good writer, and I figured it was worth a shot. You know, the worst case scenario was I had to go work. I always envisioned going to work at Staples, you selling office supplies. I thought, well, what's the worst that can happen? You know, I can either work for Staples today or I can try and do something with this skill I have. And, you know, so I really didn't have anything to lose.

And how did you. You named a few miscellaneous projects and clients that you started landing. I'm curious, how did, how did you find the work at first?

Well, I just started, you know, I did do some reading. I read some freelancing books, and one of them said to just. And I think you said this before, too, just let everyone know what you're doing. So I sent out emails and let everyone know I was. What I was doing. My parish priest connected me with someone at our church who was on the board of a nonprofit. And they put, you know, and I. I got some work with them doing a newsletter and some grant. Grant work. And, you know, I did pretty well, actually, with the grant work for a while, but then California dried up with grants and money, and that work kind of went away. Otherwise, I might still be writing grants.

Interesting. So you went out there just trying to see what you could land. I mean, it sounds like you had. You knew you wanted to write, you know, you're a good writer, but you. We didn't have a clear picture of how this would materialize.

There was one other backup plan I had which would not have worked out. As it turned out, I had always thought I could go and work for one of the local newspapers, you know, but that was when newspapers, you know, weren't firing their staff. So, you know, I did have some backup plans in my head that if my freelancing work didn't work out, but luckily it did work out.

And I'm curious what people were telling you at the time. What kind of support did you have? You know, did people think you're crazy? Because, I mean, this is. Especially back then, I don't think a lot of People were necessarily going out and freelancing, you know, at that point in their lives.

Yeah, yeah, I did have some blowback. I had one family member who was telling me to go get a job and you know, I did have some flow back and other people would say things like, well, she's a nice lady, but. And so I did have a little bit. But most people were pretty, you know. You know, most people are so obsessed with their own lives. They're not too worried about you and your life, you know, there's always the.

Expert, though, who wants to give unsolicited advice.

Yeah, well, I did get advice. You know, people will tell me to go after this kind of client or that kind of client and, you know, maybe some of them were right and it would have been a good idea. But sometimes, you know, you just, you have to follow your instincts and what's comfortable for you. For some reason, I have just found that it works best when people more or less come to me and find out about me in some way and they need a writer. But just knocking on someone's door and saying, you know, hi, I'm here, just never has been very good for me.

Now you mentioned follow your instincts. Give me an example of that. So give me an example when, yeah, people are telling you to try this or pursue that, but you kind of went with your gut and how that paid off.

Oh, I wish I had been prepped for that question.

See, you never know what you're going to get on this show.

I'm sure there are some things that, where I've just followed my instincts, you know, like, well, my accountant said, why don't you. The attorneys need good websites. Why don't you just go through the phone book and contact all the attorneys? And it just didn't feel right. But what felt right for me was writing some articles for the local business journal in nearby city and that generated work for me. So, you know, that's what felt right for me. It felt right for me to do my weekly newsletter and to write other articles that were online and that kind of thing. Just, you know, that that seemed to work best for me and to SEO my own site and just get. Get jobs from people calling me off my website.

And I. If I remember correctly, Catherine, you're still doing, or you were doing until recently, a column for the business journal Occasionally.

Yeah, but it's down to two times a year because I just don't have the time. Last year was I started out doing it once a month and then I went to like four to six times a year. And I think last year I only did two. And it's not that they won't publish me, it's just that I'm so busy.

So for those who might find that idea attractive, I mean, what would you tell them? Is there really a need? Or the business journals and business chronicles?

Well, I would say any trade publication. I have never been. I shouldn't say never, but it's rare that a well written article is not accepted by any kind of business or trade publication because they're so hungry for content. Now, if you asked them for money, you might not, probably wouldn't get it. Not these days. In the old days you could. But yeah, to get a free piece up online and then you get a link back to your website or if it's in a print publication, your local business journal. I think it's a wonderful way to. You don't necessarily get a flood of business, especially from your first article that, you know, when people see you repeated, they'll. The print ones are nice because somebody will cut it out and put it on their desk and call you six months later.

Wow.

I had a guy who did that. Local guy, he doesn't even have email. And he clipped it because he knew he needed a website for his company. And I. He's been a $10,000 client last year.

You never know.

Yeah, an old guy who doesn't have email.

I love it. It's, you know, and I would think the credibility that gives you too, right? Because we all think, right, somebody's got a book or somebody's written a column for the business journal, they must be good, right?

Exactly. Yeah. And then, you know, and then that kind of dovetailed with some other things because the business journal called me and said, hey, you have any clients that want to be in our business profile? So then I call my client and say, hey, you want to be in the business journal, but I should write the profile. I'll do a better job than they do. So then I get 500 bucks for that. So, you know, so yeah, it's good.

That's smart. I like, I like the hustle. So let's talk a little bit. Let's go back then to. So you're getting your first set of clients. Let's talk about how that evolved. So walk me through how that eventually turned into what you're doing today.

Okay. Well, like I say, I do feel like I thrashed around for about five years. You know, I, I'm not a person who's real good at planning Ahead and long term, which is probably why I'm 65 and still working. So I did thrash around for a number of years, and, you know, I did some magazine editing, but it was paying so low, and the grant work paid well, but it dried up. And, well, what happened was I got a job doing some print work for a flooring company, and they wanted me to do a website. And I did do the website, and the website was fine. It looked nice, but it didn't do well in search. So then I realized I needed to learn this SEO thing that I had been hearing about and was pulling my hair out about it. And so I've been thinking about my business that I was doing okay, but I wasn't making much money. I was probably making 30 or 30,000, 40,000 a year in a good year. And I got an email from SEO coach Copywriting Type and Nick Usborne. I don't know if you know him. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's just one of those intuition things. I got his little email saying, I have a coaching spot. And I just picked up the phone and called him.

Yeah.

And I hired him for a month, but I got so much value out of that month. I called him back up and I said, would you mind coaching me for six months? And so we made a deal. And, you know, probably the biggest thing I got out of Nick was he got me to narrow down my. My niche because I had on my website that I do resumes and I do proofreading and I do grant writing and all sorts of writing. And he got me to narrow it down to SEO copywriting. And then beyond that, you know, he kind of coached me through some things as I redid. Really, I kind of learned some stuff from him. But then what really helped was the confidence that built up, as he would say, yeah, that's good, or, yeah, that works, or, you know, it was really the confidence building he gave me that was probably the most. He gave me some tips for, you know, getting more business. But honestly, I followed really my own path more that way than what he suggested. And again, you know, no matter what kind of advice you get from anyone, whether you're paying them or not, you still have to do what, you know, what's right for you.

That's so true. That's so true. But it sounds like this was a turning point. It was in your business, and, you know, you narrowed your focus, and once you positioned yourself as an SEO copywriter, tell me how that started changing things for you.

Well, you know how you Well, I was. At that time, my website was with a different provider. I had built my own website, and it was. Is this it? I'm trying to think. Oh, actually, this was a skill when I was with Nick before I relaunched my. My website. But the website provider I was with, I can't even remember the name of them. They sent out one of these things saying, tell us your success story. So I filled it out and told my success story how my. My site had ranked higher in SEO because of using some SEO stuff. And. And one blasted that out to, you know, their mailing list at my success story. And I got a call, and that was sort of my first SEO client next to my flooring guy, and he was in Wisconsin. And I. You know, it was just. You know, it was just. And then. I don't know. And then I did another article for Furniture magazine, and one of their readers called me. They were little jobs. They didn't pay a lot, but, you know, they were something I could put in my portfolio when they were done. And I guess what I feel is if you try it all just even a little bit, somebody's gonna hire you.

Yeah. You get out there, right? You put yourself out there.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, it. You would think, you know, sometimes you get something. You get something published, and you think, oh, I'm gonna get a whole bunch of inquiries. And you don't necessarily. You might not even get one. But, you know, keep doing it, and eventually someone does hire you, if you're any good.

Yeah. I will tell you this, and I've worked with a lot of freelancers. I've studied with a lot of the successful freelance writers, copywriters, designers have done to get to where they are. And I will tell you, Katherine, that what you've done is probably the most common scenario. You thrash around for a while. I mean, there are some things you could do to drastically cut the learning curve and fast track your success. Absolutely. There's no doubt about that. But, you know, you can also do this organically. You can also do this one day at a time. The challenge for most people, in my experience, is that they don't have the emotional fortitude. They don't have the vision to keep going when they're in this dark place for sometimes one, two, three years.

Right.

And they give up. So, you know, you can still do it. The problem is, will you last?

I don't know if I would have done it if I didn't have to eat off of it. You know, I don't know if I would have had the guts to do it. I like to think I would have. But I literally had to make money to, you know, be able to live the kind of lifestyle I have. And I don't have a fancy lifestyle. I just. My goal was simply to stay in the home I have and not have to drastically cut back. So, you know, I don't know. But, yeah, for me, I just had to.

Do you remember a point when you were thinking, I don't know if this is going to work, but it doesn't matter because it has to work?

No, I never was that confident. I never was. Usually, like I say, my vision is not very good. Like, I would usually get to November and say, okay, I can at least get through Christmas without having to look for a job. And, you know, and I do find it's interesting, my emotional temperature or my emotional happiness kind of follows my bank account. If I find myself depressed, usually I can look at my bank account and see it's kind of low, having a cash flow problem. So, you know, I guess in a way, I don't feel out of the woods yet in the sense of, you know, I don't have huge, huge savings, but I do have some now.

So tell me about age discrimination, because this is one of the things that a lot of people fear. And I think the big question is, you know, I'm seeing it in the workplace. I experience it in the workplace. Does it happen as a freelancer?

Well, not as much as I anticipated. Now, part of the reason I went to work as a freelancer was I anticipated age discrimination in trying to get a regular job. But I find that with writing, one, it doesn't show your age, and two, most of the people I'm working with are older. I do work with younger people, younger owners, but most of them, it just hasn't been a problem. And I think, you know, in the SEO web world, there are so many young hotshots going around trying to sell everybody on stuff that I think when I come in and talk to people, you know, I'm just more mature. And I'm not like, I'm not saying this is going to be the answer to all your problems. You know, I don't try and hustle them and do a fast sale on them and then run. So they seem to trust me. And, you know, and I just think. I think that's been good the only time. And it's pretty funny. Early on, I did experience a funny age discrimination thing because I wrote a prospect letter. And in retrospect, it Was really a youthful, perky letter. And the guys called me and they were really excited to meet me and they had a lot of print work that they did and they needed someone and they wanted to give me a tour of their plant. And I went down and all excited. This was in a nearby city. And I went there and I sat in the lobby. I was so excited. And they walked out and they looked at me and their faces literally fell. Both of them.

Oh, no, they were pretty young. They were pretty young guys.

Yeah, well, they were younger than me. Let's put it this way, Okay. I must have made myself sound like a cute young thing. That's all I can think. And they did still do the interview and they took me back to their offices, but I didn't get any tour of the plant. And the meeting was cut very short and they never hired me. So, you know, that's the only time I ever experienced it. But it was pretty funny.

Interesting. So you're not seeing it as much in the online world as you are in the offline world, essentially.

No, not at all. I really. I just haven't. Sometimes some of the young web developers are kind of snarky with me. And I don't know if it's because they're web developers or if it's because they're young or both.

I like what you've done. So essentially, whether you did it consciously or not, you've become kind of the anti establishment. The establishment is kind of the young, fast moving, it's slick and cool. Yes. So you are very attractive to an audience that does feel comfortable with that. They don't want that because that's not who they are.

Right, right. Because I have a. I come in with a lot of respect for what they've already built in their businesses. I know they know their businesses better than I do. So I don't try and I don't try and say this is the be all and end all, you know, it's important part of your business. But I just don't try and make it like, you know, they're going to die if they don't do what I tell them to do.

And in terms of your positioning, I'm curious. So on your website, in those initial conversations with a prospect, how are you positioning yourself to communicate this differentiation that we just talked about?

Well, I like to tell them I'm. Sometimes I tell them I'm a merchandiser of their web content, that I will help them. Just like they might hire a merchandiser to come into their store or Whatever. To arrange things that I come in and do that with their website, so. And make it user friendly. A lot of times I'm turning off a lot of the bells and whistles that are on their sites already. Too much flash. I don't mean flash flash, but they just have too much stuff going on. So I do try and position myself more as a consultant than as a. As just a writer. For sure, you know, for sure. I do that.

Do you talk a little bit about your work experience and the perspective you bring to the table?

Yeah, sometimes I will tell them, you know, that, you know, stories about certain, you know, clients and success that we've had. Like, you know, yeah, I'll do that and I'll explain to them how a webpage can just last them. You know, the value is so much better than, say, print. You know, for a print ad, you might have to pay 500 to $1,000 in the newspaper and you have to pay it every single time it runs. Whereas with a webpage, you might pay 500 to $1,000 or more, but it lasts you for years and years. And I was talking to someone the other day. She has a jewelry, Crafts. Jewelry thing, and she was telling me how costly it was for her to do the craft shows. Like, she has to pay a minimum of $350 a day to go sit out on the beach or whatever to try and sell. She has to sell $350 worth of jewelry just to start to make even. And she says, and if it rains, she doesn't get her money back, she has to sit in the rain anyway. And I was thinking, yeah, you know, with a webpage, it wouldn't be near as expensive for her to market her stuff. Because I was thinking when I was talking to her, oh, she's not going to be able to afford me. But, you know, you know, if that's what she's spending to go do craft shows, yeah, she could take her craft show budget and put a few web pages up and probably do better. Mm.

So I love that. I love that. So, yeah, you're definitely. You've positioned yourself as more of a consultant. You have the. The business maturity to really. To play that up. I can tell you do that very well. And you know what? It sounds like you're using, and this is just an outsider looking. It sounds like you're using age to your advantage. You're really leveraging that in a great way. You're not shying away from it. You're not trying to pretend somebody who you know you're not who you're not. And I commend you for that because that's. Obviously, it's working.

Right. And I think, too, you know, we've all been sold things all our lives. You know, we know what we like and what we don't like. And, you know, and so it's real easy to just say you really want to do it that way, you know, to a client. Yeah. So you just have to not be shy and just, you know, be true to yourself.

So to wrap things up, let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say that I am in my 60s, and I either just retired or I've been downsized or whatever the situation is. The bottom line is this. I don't have enough in my retirement to carry me, you know, another 20, 30 years. I am. This idea of going out on my own is very attractive, but I am fearful, frankly, because I'm not sure if I can make this work. And it has to pay the bills. I mean, I can't afford to spend two years just kind of trying different things. What would you tell me? What advice would you give me?

Well, if you want to do something like what I do, I'd say just to go ahead and do it. I joined some leads groups or some business networking groups. I'd write some articles or I find whatever other way of networking and marketing that you want to do. People do need you. There's so many people who need work. I've made a very good living just working in the local market and not major corporate market. So I think sometimes, you know, people think that's the only place you can make money, and it really, really isn't. So I would say, you know, get some training from someone. I do recommend getting a coach. I think you would be a wonderful coach. If I had to do it all over again, I'd get you, too.

And that wasn't a setup for.

No, no, I understand that. I get it, Ed. But I've followed you, and, you know, I think you'd be a great coach and. But get some coach, because the. The coaching just cuts down on the time. Because the six months I spent with Nick, it was like a college education, taking a master's, you know, a master's degree course, and probably better than a.

Master'S degree course in less time, right? I mean, less time.

And a master's degree cost a heck of a lot more money. And you got to write a thesis.

Yeah, that's no fun.

So I get some training, and from whoever it is that you can feel like you can relate to and connect with. And then, you know, obviously you need to get some sort of website together. Yeah. And you can definitely. And, you know, I know one of the things, too. I've met so many older people who are in the same situation. I was talking to someone yesterday and I saying, oh, well, you weren't like me. You've planned it all. And he said, Kathy, at 50, I divorced and I got. I lost all my money, all of it. I had to start over at 50. And I thought, oh, man. You know, because you get stuck in your own little world and you think you're the only person with these problems. You know, you look around and everybody seems to be doing better than you are. And so, you know, I see a lot of people reinventing themselves, and they're people who are very successful, who are starting new businesses at 60. So I wouldn't let that hold you back if it's something you want to do. But it is hard work and it is, you know, and it is frustrating at times, so. But yeah, that's what I would recommend. I'd get a coach, you know, and.

I'm glad you emphasized the hard work part because I think a lot of times this freelancing idea is sold as some sort of dream opportunity where there's so much demand that all you got to do is put a website up and clients will flock to you, to your dream. And unfortunately, that's not the case. I wish it were, but it's just not. So I appreciate you not just telling us your story of how this happened. It didn't happen overnight, but it took a lot of hard work and dedication, and you had a big motivation to make it happen. And that's key. So, Kathryn, thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Matt, wonderful. Love having you on the show. Always love talking to you, gave great advice. And for listeners who would like to learn more about you, where can they go check you out?

Well, I kind of have a new URL. It's betterwebsales.com Nice. Yeah, it's easier to remember than andysandassociates.com.

How come I didn't come up with that?

I don't know. It wasn't me that came up with it. It was a friend. Another marketing friend came up with it.

Betterwebseals.com Thanks a lot, Kathryn.

Okay, thank you, Ed.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview. And you know what? I would love to hear from you, and I know so would Catherine. So if you have any comments, thoughts Any ideas or insights if you've been out there, if you have launched your business after age 55 or you're 55 or older and you have something to share, anything to add to the conversation, we would absolutely love to hear from you. And I also wanted to remind everyone that you can grab the details show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 71 so this is great. If you're in the car and you wanted to go back to some of what was said here, you can always review the notes and that's, that's a great way to recap. There's links to some of the items I mentioned there. If you know of someone who would get value from today's show or from this podcast in general, I urge you to please share it with them. And the easiest way to do that is through any of the social media social media buttons that you see on the Show Notes page. And finally, I wanted to give you a heads up that I'm going to be doing an online workshop next week for both new and aspiring B2B or commercial writers. And this is all about helping you get your business off the ground. So if you've been wanting to do this, you're not really sure how to get it off the ground. You're overwhelmed, you're kind of paralyzed by all these different ideas that you keep hearing about. You're not sure what, what steps to take. This is going to be great for you. Or if you've already launched your B2B writing or copywriting business, you're not having the success that you were hoping for. If it's been a few months, maybe a year or so, and you trying to figure out how to get to that next step, this is definitely going to be for you. I'm going to share with you my launch roadmap. I'm going to show you how to get this thing off the ground and to land your first set of paying clients over the next few months. So be on the lookout for an email tomorrow, Friday where I'll announce that give you the details on how you can register for it. But you know, in the meantime you can go ahead and save the date. I will tell you it's going to be this coming Tuesday, March 3rd at 1:00pm Eastern Time. And those who register will get a copy of the recorded replay in all of the handouts that I share. So but you know, of course you can attend live and the be live Q& A at the end. So that brings us to the end of the episode I am your host, Ed Gandia. Thanks so much for listening, and I hope you have an awesome day.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B. Launcher.com.

Are in the same situation. I was talking to someone yesterday, and I saying, oh, well, you weren't like me. You. You've planned all. And he said, Kathy, at 50, I divorced and I got. I lost all my money, all of it. I had to start over at 50. And I thought, oh, man. You know, because you get stuck in your own little world and you think you're the only person with these problems. You know, you look around and everybody seems to be doing better than you are. And so, you know, I see a lot of people reinventing themselves, and they're people who. Who are very successful, who are starting new businesses at 60. So I wouldn't let that hold you back if it's something you want to do. But it is hard work, and it is, you know, and it is frustrating at times, so. But yeah, that's what I would recommend. I'd get a coach, you know, and.

I'm glad you emphasized the hard work part because I think a lot of times this freelancing idea is sold as some sort of dream opportunity where there's so much demand that all you got to do is put a website up and clients will flock to you, to your door. And unfortunately, that's not the case. I wish it were, but it's just not. So I appreciate you not just telling us your story of how this happened. It didn't happen overnight, but it took a lot of hard work and dedication, and you had a big motivation to make it happen.

Right?

That's key. So, Kathryn, thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Matt, wonderful. Love having you on the show. Always love talking to you, gave great advice. And for listeners who would like to learn more about you, where can they go check you out?

Well, I kind of have a new URL. It's betterwebsales.com.

Nice.

Yeah, it's easier to remember than Andy's and associates.com.

How come I. I didn't come up with that?

I don't know. It wasn't me that came up with it. It was a friend. Another marketing friend came up with it.

Betterwebsales.com Thanks a lot, Katherine.

Okay. Thank you, Ed.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview. And you know what? I would love to hear from you, and I know so would Catherine. So if you have any comments, thoughts, any ideas or insights, if you've been out there. If you have launched your business after after age 55 or you're 55 or older and you have something to share, anything to add to the conversation, we would absolutely love to hear from you. And I also wanted to remind everyone that you can grab the details show notes for this episode at B2B launch.