#073: The Messy Road to Better-Paying Clients

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business.

To a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Thank you for joining me for episode 73 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find the detailed show notes for this episode when you go to b2b. Launcher.com episode 73. You know, one of the things that I've tried to be very mindful of in this show is painting a very realistic picture of what it's like to launch and grow a freelance writing or copywriting business today. Better fact. I take great pride in being transparent about this and I know many of you guys recognize this because I get this in your feedback and you share how much you appreciate the fact that I don't hold anything back. And I'm very clear about the fact that this is, this is a very difficult business to get into. In fact, I say it all the time. I think this is the hardest thing you'll ever do in your professional career. For many people, not for everybody. For many people, this will be the hardest thing by far that you've ever done to launch and grow a freelance writing or copywriting business to some level of success. And if you go through my shows, most of the interviews I grill people about this, I want them to tell a very accurate picture of what it's like in their journey. I've also done a lot of solo shows where I've just described some of this in detail. And I've been very frank about this. The Rock star myth, episode 70, which was recently my credible source of freelancing advice. Episode 66, should you quit or should you stick? Episode 44. I shared my journey to a six figure level business in episode six and seven. And I talked about what a struggle that was to get to, to where I am. And you know, I think it's important I want people to know what it's like. I don't want to discourage anyone, but I want everyone to know going in what it's like to do this. And one of the reasons I do this is I see too much before and after storytelling out there, but not enough discussion about that messy journey to getting to that beautiful after state, if you will. Right. It's, it's that messy process, the behind the curtain, you know, the messy stuff that nobody really wants to talk about. And I don't agree with that. I don't agree with people who just want to show the before and after and then just kind of, you know, sweep the journey under the rug. And today's show is no exception. My guest is a gentleman by the name of Mark Stone. And Mark is a freelance writer from British Columbia, Canada. And Mark is still in the early stages of growing his freelance business and he has a really interesting story to tell about finding his way through this process, through growing his business. You're not going to hear a before and after story here because there's no after yet. In fact, you could even argue there's never an after. Right. You never arrive, you're always on a journey. So what you're going to hear today from Mark is you're going to get kind of a status report and, and you're going to hear how Mark is landing progressively better and higher paying clients and how he's pushing past very real fears and insecurities to improve his business and up level his.

It's a weird business climate here. So I've, you know, I have to learn some lessons and try to do a good Microsoft. I'd say it's probably 50. 50.

Okay, good, good. So you know, one of the things that I wanted to talk with you about. Cause you have a really interesting story about working with difficult clients and just kind of like finding your way through this business. And you and I were talking offline a bit about how, you know, this business is messy. I mean life is messy, right? It's like everyone thinks that, you know, before you, you actually launch your business or when you're starting out, everyone thinks that, you know, it's going to kind of unfold in a certain way and it's going to be like this beaut journey, you know, like, like Hollywood. It's never like that. It's, it's messy. You make mistakes, you know, because of that, you often feel embarrassed, you, you lose confidence. And so like all this bad stuff happens and, and I say bad, but at the end of the day it's, it's actually good. It's like a blessing that you know that it was tough, that it was difficult, that you made mistakes because you.

Get to learn from them.

So bad. I think a good starting place would be if you kind of share a little bit of your story. Like you know, especially last year. I know that's when we first connected. Right. About this thing that happened last year that really got you wondering if this is really going to be for You.

Exactly, yeah. When, you know, sometimes if you have that, I don't want to say nightmare client. If you have a bad experience with a client, it could really do a lot to your self confidence and everything about your business. When we're trying to find a way, we do what we can to take our business to the next level. And we sometimes sign on to those clients or projects with big blinders on because we get caught up in the nice paycheck and neglect to take a step back and look at things as they really are. I guess the question. Last summer I was coming off a moderately successful summer and I was starting to implement some of the great lessons I learned in your or Meemaw prospecting course, which I highly recommend. And here, where I live, there's a lot of tech startups here and they all want to be the next Facebook or Uber or Snapchat. And I've known a CEO here who, she was doing some amazing things and I met her several times and loved what she was doing. I put a particular proposal to help her company with copy and pr and I began working with them. Initially I looked at their sales presentations. They were really nice to share them with me. The team was good. The revenue potential was endless. I was billing about 20 hours a week and things were looking great. But about two weeks in, almost every day, a red flag would pop up out of the ground and right in front of my face. I think if it were you, Ed, you'd have probably run for the hills. But maybe I was stubborn, maybe I was just scared of losing this great revenue stream. So I stuck with it for a few months and it was stressful. It became work. And I don't think it should ever become work. Like work work. The CEO is an amazing person, but sometimes great people, great intentions may not be the best people to work with. And every bit of work done for the company was really scrutinized. And something that would take me an hour normally for a normal client would take five or more. Yeah, that's good for billing, but frustrating and stressful and you know, you know when you've like written some copy and you're so confident that it's exactly what it's right for the given situation. And then the client has their vision and no matter what they do and no matter what you do, they just won't listen. And it was happening to not just me, but to others. And I just, you know, I had to just terminate the contract for my sanity.

Yeah, that's. That's a tough place to Be. So how long, how long were you there then? It sounds like it was a few months.

A couple months? Yeah, about two now I learned. But again, the greatest thing about it, even though, you know, I could look back now and I learned so much, like not, not just from my experience with the company, but I was doing some PR with for some very. They, they had some really high profile clients and working with these clients, I, I learned a lot. So, so maybe it was stuff that, you know, I could have, you can even pay for to learn. It was almost like on the job training on certain, certain things. So it was, it was great. You know, I still, at the time, as stressed as I was, you know, I was not, maybe not happy and was really worried, but as I look back, it was, it still is a good experience because, you know, I learned a lot from it and I've. Because of it, I've made a lot of changes to my business.

And it's like everyone thinks that, you know, if you, if before you, you actually launch your business or when you're starting out, everyone thinks that, you know, it's going to kind of unfold in a certain way and it's going to be like this beautiful journey, you know, like, like Hollywood. It's never like that. It's, it's messy. You make mistakes, you know, because of that, you often feel embarrassed, you lose confidence. And so like all this bad stuff happens and I say bad, but at the end of the day it's actually good. It's like a blessing that you know that it was tough, that it was difficult, that you made mistakes because you.

Get to learn from them.

So I think a good starting place would be if you kind of share a little bit of your story. Like, you know, especially last year. I know that's when we and I first connected. Right. About this thing that happened, happened last year that really got you wondering if this is really going to be for you.

Exactly, yeah. Sometimes if you have that, I don't want to say nightmare client, if you have a bad experience with a client, it could really do a lot to your self confidence and everything about your business. So when we're trying to find a way, we do what we can to take our business to the next level. And we sometimes sign on to those clients or projects with big blinders on because we get caught up in the nice paycheck and neglect to take a step back and look at things as they really are. So I guess the question, like last summer I was coming off a moderately successful summer and I was starting to implement some of the great lessons I learned in your Meemo prospecting course, which I highly recommend. And here, where I live, there's a lot of tech startups here and they all want to be the next Facebook or Uber or Snapchat. And I've known a CEO here who, she was doing some amazing things and I met her several times and loved what she was doing. I put a particular proposal to help her company with copy and pr and I began working with them. Initially I looked at their sales presentations. They were really nice to share them with me. The team was good. The revenue potential was endless. I was billing about 20 hours a week and things were looking great. But about two weeks in, almost every day a red flag would pop up out of the ground and right in front of my face. I think if it were you, Ed, you'd have probably run for the hills. But maybe I was stubborn. Maybe I was just scared of losing this great revenue stream. So I stuck with it for a few months. It was stressful. It became work. I don't think it should ever become work like work work. The CEO is in amazing person, but sometimes great people, great intentions may not be the best people to work with. And every bit of work done for the company was really scrutinized. And something that would take me an hour normally for a normal client would take five or more. Yeah, that's good for billing, but frustrating and stressful. You know when you've written some copy and you're so confident that it's exactly what it's right for the given situation and then the client has their, their vision and no matter what they do and no matter what you do, they just won't listen. And it was happening to not just me, but to others. And I just, you know, I had to just terminate the contract for my, for my sanity.

Yeah, that's. That's a tough place to be. So how long, how long were you there then? It sounds like it was a few months.

A couple months? Yeah, about two to now. I learned. But again, the greatest thing about it, even though, you know, I could look back now and I learned so much. Like not, not just from my experience with the company, but I was doing some PR with for some very. They. They had some really high profile clients and working with these clients, I learned a lot. So. So maybe it was stuff that, you know, I could have, you can even pay for to learn. It was almost like on the job training on certain, certain things. So, so it was, it was agree. I still at the time, as stressed as I was, you know, I was not, maybe not happy and was really worried. But as I look back, it was. It still is a good experience because, you know, I learned a lot from it and I've. Because of it, I've made a lot of changes to my business and the way I approach things.

And I definitely want to spend some time talking about those lessons learned because you've really taken time to think through that before we get there, though, so kind of paint us a picture of where you are.

You're.

It's two months in, you are done. So how did you let the client know? Like, what was the tipping point there?

I think the tipping point was we were working on a big, big PR piece that, you know, they had their top, Their sales director, the VP of sales, where I was working with him on it because he had the, he had the contact and everything we did, it was just like, it was. Just kept getting shot down. And I'm like, this is not. This will never work. So I basically had to compose an email just saying, I don't think I'm the right person for this, for your efforts and, you know, I'd love to meet with you and just chat. She was, she was always out of town as well, so it's hard to get FaceTime. So. Yeah, so I just kind of basically cut it off right there. I normally would give. Given a little more time, but I just, I had to kind of get out of it and then I just kind of moved on. I had. There was a few other projects that was kind of putting on hold while I was doing a lot of work for this client, and I just kind of jumped in with a few other ones. And some of those next clients were also a bit of, a bit of a learning experience as well. But that's the thing. I mean, as we find a way, there's always new clients, new interesting experiences that I think if you don't sit back and just really take just a whole picture approach to your business, sometimes you just get caught up in everything and you just run from client to client. And sometimes that's not the greatest thing to do.

No, no. And, you know, I want to kind of address a point that you made earlier about, you know, maybe I would.

Have run for the hills at the.

First red flag, but, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think everyone's on a journey and at different points in that journey, you're going to be willing to take, you know, certain, certain clients sometimes you are aware of what you're getting into. Sometimes you're not, but that comes with time. And I always tell people, listen, especially your first two, three years, you have to be much more willing to work with less desirable clients than you would once you've been at it for five years or more, let's say. So it's a progression, it's a journey. And you shouldn't be prima donna on day one. You gotta get there, you gotta work your way up there. And look at each client is a learning experience. So I wouldn't have run from it. Believe me, I've had my share of those clients. And here's a little secret. I still have those clients. Not as many. And here's what happens now. The difference now is that if I say yes, I know what I'm getting myself into. And that's okay. I have structured the deal. I've priced it in a certain way that accounts for those suspicions. So that's okay. That's okay. All right, so let's talk a little bit about you've moved on. What would you say have been? And I know you have a few of them. The biggest lessons learned from that experience.

The biggest lesson I think is just changing your mindset if you don't just jump into everything thinking of the paycheck or the thrill of working with maybe a high profile client. I think you've talked about it in your podcast several times before and I think it holds true. Your mindset plays such a huge part of where you end up. It was that mindset when I started working with this client. It completely disappeared and it just got reset as I got deeper into the work. And it's taken a few months to reset my mind. And one thing I've begun doing is have you ever heard of the miracle morning by that Hal Elrod?

I have, yeah.

It's, you know, sounds woo woo. It's meditating, journaling, visualization, affirmations. But I've started doing that and it's amazing just by getting into a new mindset, what it could do for you. And so I think the mindset, taking the time to change your mindset is a big thing, especially for freelancers, I believe.

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. So it's. If you could describe how your mindset is maybe a little different now for, from the way it was six months ago, what would be the biggest item or two?

You know, I think the biggest revelation I guess that I've had with respect to mindset is not so much thinking of myself As a person with a business, but to think of myself as a business with everything that makes up who I am behind that, I think. I think changing that thinking is. Is a big, big deal for me. So that. Yeah. Do you. Do you see that?

I think that's key, and I'm glad you said that because that's. That's a switch I can't turn on for somebody. Everyone's got to do that on their.

On their own.

It sounds like that experience he had and maybe this subsequent experiences and thoughts and insights kind of added up to that. You realize that you had to flip that switch, but you weren't ready for it before. Now you were.

Yeah, now I'm totally ready for it. And just being a little more mindful about the marketing you do. And not to think of marketing as salesy, because we all, as freelancers, I talk to a lot of them and we all say, oh, I don't like being salesy, but I think there's ways to do it without being too salesy. But it's hard because there's so much information out there and there's so many different podcasts and blog posts and things you can read that do sound really salesy. So you kind of have to shut out the noise and find what works for you.

Yeah. At the end of the day, it's got to feel right.

Yeah, it has to feel right. And that takes a while. I mean, for me, at least.

So tell me a little bit about some of the insights regarding red flags. Right. Your ability to identify prospects who maybe aren't a great fit for you. How has that changed since you've had this experience?

I think it's about asking tough questions up front. If you approach the client, how well is this going to work? Is this client going to be, you know, not a nightmare, but is it going to be difficult to work with the clients or the business? And also the budget? Like I've. I know you talk about going after clients that have a bigger budget for. For copier content. That that's a big thing, too. Like, I'm not saying to just discount a company just because of their low budget, but. But going after those kind of companies and asking those kind of questions and seeing how much they really value content is a big thing because I've actually had to turn down, or I have since turned down a client just because I know for sure that they don't value content. By asking certain questions, you could just tell. I think so. I think it's getting to know what exactly you want and how much they are going to value what you can provide for them and just being real about it. Because I think we fool ourselves a lot. We think oh yeah, yeah, everything's okay and oh yeah, they're awesome and they say they value content but I don't know, there's just little things you could just pick up on maybe. I don't know. I'm sure you've working with so many clients that you have, you kind of get, maybe you get a sixth sense about it.

You do, you do. Because you're right. A lot of it has to do with what they're not saying they're telling you something yet sometimes it's because of the project they're approaching you with.

Right.

And I'll give you an example. Like gosh, there's so many I've had clients or prospects approach me with, listen, we, we, we want to write a case study. We really believe we need this. I mean like that kind of talk. And when you look at and you ask well what else have they done and to kind of create a case study library or you know, credibility in that area that they have nothing and you can tell they have no plans to do anything after that. They're looking at this case study as a silver bullet. Yeah, they really believe this is going to solve so many of their problems. So that kind of thing. Right. In the context of I'm looking for clients who are, who've bought into this idea, who have a steady stream of content writing work that, that's not good because this is like a one off thing. They don't really buy it, but they really think that this is going to sell the product.

Yes, yes. Recently I had a similar for a white paper that I got and I hadn't written a white paper since my IT days and they never done one before and they wanted. The CEO was very impressive and I thought I'd ask the right questions. But as the process went along it just became very difficult because they wanted one thing but then they wanted it both ways. They wanted it tweetable but at the same time right now that very high academic PhD type level. But they wanted tweet and sound bites out of it. It's like Paul, you can't really get both, I don't think.

No, no, you're right. So let's talk a little bit about because you'd mentioned to me that your mindset shift around improvement of skills and how before you didn't really believe in getting some certifications and so forth that you've Found something that you feel is going to make a difference for you?

Yeah, I think so. Like I said, I never really believed much in diplomas or certifications or even though I'm certified in computer security certification from way back. But I recently completed my HubSpot inbound certification and passed that exam really well. And that was just a few weeks ago. And I found that in prospecting, having that badge, the HubSpot Inbound Certified badge, in my email signature and also changing my email signature to look more professional has dramatically improved my response rate for email prospecting. Like probably double or possibly triple in the amount of, you know, I'm not saying everybody comes back to me and says, oh yeah, I want to work with you, because as you know, like, email prospecting is more building, building relationships, starting the conversation and. But just the amount of responses that people that actually get back to me, maybe they say we can't work with you now, but check back in a month too. I would have never got those before with, you know, with just a basic mark Stone, you know, my name, my website. So, yeah, my signature. And having that badge somehow has made a big difference.

That's huge. Because what I love about that is it's another credibility element that's not in the body of the email, it's in the signature. And so you can still have another one in the body of the email if you wanted to. Right. But. But now you have that one in the signature and it really pops. It sounds like it's a. An actual image. Is it an actual.

Yeah, yeah, it's an actual image and badge. And I think what I've noticed for a couple of clients that I, or potential clients down the road that may turn out like. I think had they not seen that, they probably would have discounted me for certain things based on, based on my clips or, you know, the stuff I've written about before. It just does tell. It tells the prospective client that, yeah, they kind of know what they're talking about, at least in certain aspects of content and copy.

Interesting. So what other things have you noticed that have shifted since then because of the mindset?

I find that I know as soon as I shifted my mindset merely days after I started shifting, that I was presented with a very big content writing opportunity and the client is local and they actually do have a really big budget and they don't mind spending on quality content. That project should start up pretty soon, maybe later this month. It was weird how it just when I knew my mindset had totally switched, it was within Days that this content. Just this opportunity just came up.

How did it present itself to you?

I had worked with the. It was a project manager that I was currently working with on another project and I guess they liked my work that I'm currently doing. And yeah, they. They just kind of. I didn't even know this project existed and they just said, oh, they're going to start up something. And the project manager contacted me and just said, yeah, I think this is going to happen. And yeah, even though I kind of knew them already, just the way it came up was a lot. It just. The timing seemed to be more than just coincidental.

I love.

And I also. Sorry.

I love that.

Yeah.

And I don't believe in coincidences. I believe that we actually. And this is just me, that I believe that we assign meaning to it. So, you know, if it means that to you, it's. It's true. And if it means something in my. If it happens to me and I assign meaning to it, whatever I sign it is true.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. I totally agree with that. And yeah, just also networking your own contacts, I think it's probably the easiest forms of prospecting that we neglect as freelancers because there's so much to mine there. But for whatever reason, we just don't do it properly.

Are you talking about online or in person?

Yeah, online. Both, like online and in person. The people, you know, the people maybe you've worked with before or even just colleagues, or maybe you send out the initial email saying, hey, I'm looking for work or whatever. But I think if you're really tactful and mindful about it or tactical, you could really make things happen. And because of that, I probably have a gig as a. They're a marketing agency and it's a contact of mine and I may become one of their top resources for content needs for their clients.

All as a result of just kind of staying in touch with some of your contacts.

Yeah, staying in touch and being more, I don't know, just the way I presented. Presented it to them.

So give us an example. Like what have you done in terms of staying in touch, staying on the radar screen that you feel is having an impact whether it's led to work or not?

Yeah, just emailing, thinking of people that maybe you haven't talked to in a long time or maybe people you do deal with and just, I guess maybe the wording that you use about how you want to maybe not just say, hey, I'm looking for work, but hey, here's how I can bring value to whatever it is you or your client is looking for. And I think taking the time to meet them, if you can, or have a Skype call and just return.