#079: Should You Use a Creative Brief?

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To a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to episode 79 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find the detailed show notes for this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 79 so I'm curious, do you use a creative brief when you're working with clients? And if you haven't, have you thought about using one? But maybe you're just not sure what to include in a creative brief? And then, you know, really the question becomes, do you even need one if you're a freelance B2B writer or copywriter? This is a question I've been asked quite a bit. I've had a few listeners actually approach me about this and I promised I would do a show on the topic and I've been meaning to do this for a long time. Finally got it done. That's exactly what we're talking about in this episode. You're going to hear from my friend and colleague, Pam Foster. Pam is from Content clear marketing and petcopywriter.com She's a seasoned marketer with an extensive corporate communications experience. She's a big believer also in using a creative brief when you're working on client projects. And in this episode she's going to talk about why and when you need a creative brief. What your creative brief should contain, how to use one when you're working with a client, how to manage the whole creative brief process, how to customize your creative brief, four different scenarios you might encounter, how to use them to deliver more value to your clients, and much, much more. This has been again, an issue that has come up a couple of times. I haven't found a way to really address it properly. I wanted to bring someone who uses creative briefs all the time and has been using them for a while and has seen the good, the bad and the ugly. So I think you're really going to enjoy this. And I tell you, the implications of doing this go far, far beyond just getting questions answered. As you'll see, there's more to it than just handing a client a document. So anyway, let's, let's get right to it. Happy to finally have this on the show and I'll come back at the end with a couple of quick announcements. Hey, Pam, welcome to the show. It's good to have you here.

Thank you. Great to be here.

You know, before we get to the. To the meat of this episode, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, the work you do, the kind of clients you work with, that sort of thing.

Okay. Well, I used to be a corporate marketing communications person for many years, and I finally escaped the cubicle world and all of that. And I have been a freelance copywriter for, I guess, since 2007 is when I made the leap. Although I do have a day job now. But my whole life in the last several years has been about web copywriting, and I still do freelance work on the side, mainly in the pet industry, the pet and veterinary world. So I work with a lot of B2B clients and a few B2C clients, but mainly my work is helping them with their web content, and they have no idea where to start. And so the ball is in my court to get the information I need to do a good job. So that's the kind of work I do.

Gotcha. And most of them. So mostly B2B and mostly in the vet kind of industry. Right. Products and services around that give us an idea of what a client would do, because I'm trying to visualize B2B in the veterinary world.

Okay. So I have a wonderful client. I've been blogging for. For a few years, and I've also optimized a couple of websites for them. And they make veterinary equipment for the exam grooming area and bathing and boarding and all that good stuff. And they make kennels and cages and tubs and all kinds of stuff, exam room tables, storage units. So I'm constantly writing about the unique features and challenges of keeping these areas sanitary and making them last for a long time, because, you know, animals of all sizes are jumping on them all day. And also ergonomic issues, because groomers, as we know, and other vet team members are bending over all the time and their back is getting out of whack. So this awesome company makes ergonomically friendly solutions for them. So I'm constantly writing to the pet professional or veterinary professional.

That is very cool. This is one of those industries that until you and I started talking a few years ago about it, I had no idea there was a whole market for this. Right. It's kind of obscure in a way. Like, we all assume that these products just kind of show up in a vet's office.

Well, it's so funny because if you have an animal and you go into your vet now, you'll appreciate all the stuff you see from when you walk into the lobby and they've got a display of food and leashes and collars and then they've got stuff happening behind the scenes, which is maybe their practice management software. Then they go into the exam room and they've got tables and supplies and posters on the wall, all of that stuff and is created by B2B. B2B manufacturers or suppliers in that industry.

Interesting, interesting. So let's talk about creative briefs.

Okay.

I know you're a big proponent of them and we'll start from the beginning. For people who are not sure what a creative brief is, why don't you define it and, and then tell us why you're a big believer in them?

Okay, sure. Well, a creative brief is basically a questionnaire and it's something that has, that prompts clients to give you the right information so you can do a good job as a copywriter. For example, what is the client's mission with their website? Do they want people to buy a retail product or sign up to be, sign up for the newsletter or sign up to watch a demo or go to a conference or there's a whole host of things that you want people to do on the website. So that's just one question. And then who's the audience? You want to get real clarity on who you're talking to. So that questionnaire will say, okay, are you marketing only to this group or do you also have a subsection of your audience that's that group? And then what sets your company apart? So you want to know out of the client's competitive market, there might be many competitors that do the same thing. They do. But you need to know as a good copywriter, what is it that makes your clients products or services unique or better or more attractive to the market so you can call out those things in your copy. So it just goes step by step through questions. And there are maybe 20 questions that every company should complete. And it really helps you get some insights into what you're going to be writing about.

And I can see why that would be so important, especially with a, with a new client. And I'm curious though. A lot of those questions you mentioned are the kind of questions you'd want to ask a first time client. What happens on subsequent projects. Do you alter your creative brief? Do you use a creative brief? What do you do there?

Well, it all depends. Sometimes you learn a lot through the first creative brief process and you really dig into everything the company does. And you can get background materials like brochures or previous web copy and things like that. So you have a pretty good sense when you're writing for different products or services, you get the picture of why ultimately they're great solutions, but sometimes you run into clients that have either different divisions or different product lines that you're really not familiar with. So you might have them do a creative brief for those products or services or divisions. And the other day I was doing a guest blog post for Heather Lloyd Martin's SEO copywriting website and I talked about mini USPs. And what that means is on the creative brief, one of the questions is, what is your USP or your unique selling proposition? This is really important because that's the thing that ultimately sets your client's company apart from others. But not only do you need a company wide usp, for example, Volvo is all about safety, and they kind of own that. Even though other companies are safe car companies, Volvo has decided to put a stake in the ground and own that safety. You know, usp. But also each one of their vehicles has its own usp. So might be a sporty one versus a family wagon versus, you know, some other type of vehicle. So that's when you might need another creative brief. Okay, let's say I'm working for Volvo. I'm just throwing this out there as an example. And I understand that they're all about safety. That's their corporate core thing. But they come out with a jazzy new sports car. We're not going to talk. I mean, safety is critical with sports cars, obviously, but there's so much more to that. Speed and performance and exciting features and all that good stuff. So you want to work with your client with a creative brief to figure out, okay, how am I going to sell this product against other sports cars specifically? Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. And I'm assuming then you will basically customize the creative brief you send over based on what you already know and what you're trying to find out, correct?

Yeah. Yes. And you can eliminate some questions or add different questions or ask more about the competition, you know. Yeah, it can totally be customized. And I've had clients that get part of the creative brief. You know, nobody's asked them these questions quite this way. So it's a really helpful tool no matter what you're writing about.

It sounds like it could even be somewhat of a competitive advantage. Right. If they're, if you're really kind of taking them down a road that nobody has before, especially a writer.

Well, a lot of times companies are so mired in selling, hey, we have this, that no one has pushed them to say, yeah, but why is that a better choice among the choices in that market? For example, I worked for a veterinary company a few years ago and they had this new technology and a machine that vets could use in the practice that would run something called a five part differential, which most people on this call won't know what that means, but it's basically taking blood samples and breaking them apart with answers that vets can use to diagnose a disease. But this new technology was doing something that vets hadn't had before. So when you ask the client, what is the exciting thing about this? Well, it's a five part differential. And you're like, yeah, but the audience has no idea what that actually does for them. Ultimately, what's the benefit of it? So a creative brief will help you dig in. And finally the answer is you keep asking the so what question. Okay, so it does this, but what does that mean to the vet? And ultimately you get to. Well, it gives them more information within 10 minutes so they can make a more definitive diagnosis. And you go, ah, that's it. Bada bing. So you know more answers in 10 minutes than any other machine out there. That's the unique thing you want to talk about?

Yeah, I love it. So this, this can help extract that from, from your client, which should be very difficult to do otherwise. But here's what I'm wondering, right? It's why do you prefer kind of this formal document and having the client fill it out over, for instance, having a kickoff call on the project and asking the client these questions verbally?

Well, in the B2B world, the client may not often be the only person you're working with or who's weighing in on these issues. And actually they shouldn't be. The salespeople who are out in the front lines will have some amazing input into what turns prospects heads or what tips the scales in their favor. And then customer support might weigh in as well. People really love this feature, but they never understand that one. And the client that you're working with may not necessarily dig into that great stuff that you could use as super duper copy points to help sell the product. So it's a, it's a nice formal way to get the company, not just the client, thinking about how they should sell their products through copy.

And so do you encourage your client to kind of pass it around and have people like the sales team or key salespeople or the sales manager, for instance, take a look at it and add his or her insight. How do you. How do you manage that?

Yeah, I definitely do. I usually ask them, oh, gosh, I've done this so many times. I'll say, why don't you give it a start and give it a first pass, and then we'll look at it. And as I have questions, maybe we need to bring in on a couple of the answers. A sales rep or a customer service person or someone else on the front lines, a training person, and have them answer that, too, because you never know what we might discover. That is a really cool thing that stands out here that you may not have thought of. And they're usually very open to that.

I like that approach because I've never had luck with the approach that I've suggested or I mentioned at first in the question, which is, all right, here it is. You fill it out, then pass it around. Right. It never comes back.

Yeah. Or people don't know how to fill it out. Sometimes you. I mean, I've even had group conference calls. Okay, everybody on this team, this is what I'm looking for. And why? Because I remember when I was writing for a college, and I do still write for a variety of clients, not just veterinary. I've written for crazy things like commercial dumpsters. But one time I was writing for a college, and the person who was my direct contact was an IT person, not a marketing person. And so she wasn't really savvy on what I was trying to get at when I was asking questions about, how are you different, Better, More. More appealing to the target audience. So we. We would bring in people and we sit in a group call, and I would ask these questions, and they would kind of, as a group, start chiming in. And it was so powerful.

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. And by the way, so do you call it a creative brief with a client? Because that's kind of marketing lingo, and I see it a lot in the agency world. Or how do you. How do you present it to a new client?

I do call it a creative brief because it's part of the marketing process. And if you're working with a marketing manager at a B2B company, they pretty much know what that means. But even if they kind of scratch their head, I just say it's a questionnaire that I need to have you fill out so I can get the information I need and do a really good job right from the start. And we're very Clear on the message direction and what's important to you. And they totally get that.

Now I'm curious, what happens when, let's say you get buy in. They say, great, that makes sense. And then it just kind of gets stuck, right? And I've been on the other end, right? You open it up and you see it's 20 questions. You go, oh my gosh, okay, I don't have time for that right now. I'll do it tomorrow. And then I'll do it tomorrow and I'll do it tomorrow. And it just doesn't happen. Like, how do you manage this process so you can ensure the client gets you what you need and on a timely basis?

Well, a couple ways. So I'll check in, we'll set a deadline, and then I'll check in on the deadline, I'll give them a call, and if they really want to get going, they will appreciate that if they just can't get out of their own way, I might turn it to me starting out, taking a stab at it. So based on what you told me during the initial conversation and based on what I see on your website, I'm going to take a pass at this creative brief and then you can look at it and go, oh no, no, that's not right or yay, she nailed it. But we have to fix this one part. So that's something you do if your client's really just head spinningly busy and can't get to it. You can get the ball rolling by turning it around and being something you start.

But typically you ask the client to take a first pass at it. Yeah, okay.

And we, and we decide on a date. So, you know, because most B2B people are on schedules and deadlines and they appreciate a date like that instead of leaving it open ended. So I'll say a week from today, I look forward to getting that draft from you and then we'll go over it together.

I think it's really smart. I think it's dangerous to send something like this to somebody, to a client and just leave it open ended. I think people want deadlines, they want to know, okay, when do you need this back? You tell me. Okay, so let's talk about how you handle this internally in terms of creating each creative brief. Do you have a master one that you kind of use as the basis for each one of these and you kind of look at all the questions and you delete, you add and so forth, or do you have them classified by type of project, by industry? How do you work that.

Well, I just have one because it's pretty much I have one template and it's somewhat generic, and then I modify it as needed for each client. And if it's a veterinary client or a pet industry client, it's very simple modification. But knowing what their mission is, when they called me, I can look at the questions and adapt them. So instead of saying, what is your business goal? Or what's your website's goal? I might say something more specific, like what is the goal of your. The section on stainless steel tables or something like that. So. Yeah, and then if I'm. Yeah, so I just. I use one. I don't need to have a whole bunch of different ones and I just modify it slightly as needed.

And it's a Word document.

Yep.

Okay.

Yeah. Because they want to be able to type into it and send it back to me just to make their life easier.

Yeah. So it's nothing fancy, just a Word document. They just type in the question, the answer's right there, and send it back to you.

Yeah. It's not even a fancy form, you know, based Word document where, you know, all those form fields are in there and stuff like. That's just a bunch of questions. Everybody's life easier.

Yeah. Yeah, that. That makes sense. That makes sense. I'm curious as to what you found and how it's impacted things such as revisions. Your ability to kind of hit the target early, you know, or on the first go around, you know, how. Have you noticed using a creative brief has enabled you to do a better job as a copywriter?

Well, here's a step that a lot of people may not think of doing. Between the creative brief and the actual content, I create a message direction document. Some people call it something else. I know Casey calls it a key copy message platform. Key message copy platform. I always mess that up. It's a key message copy platform. I've called it a content message document or something like that, where you're taking everything you've absorbed from the interview and then the creative brief, and you're putting it into a document that says, based on everything I'm seeing, here's the main crux of what you want to say. And then here are the top five benefits. So let's say the main headline is, no one does this faster than this. We do. And then the five benefits underneath that are, we've eliminated manual data entry. We've given you a way to automate this, whatever it is. And I will send that to them and say before I start writing, the real copy on the website, either the homepage or certain product pages. I want to make sure that you agree this is your unique and really strong stake in the ground. This is what you want to represent yourself as or position yourself as. And it'll be a short, not even a whole page. It'll just be, is this the right direction that you want to be taking with your copy in general? And then everything else will flow from that more specifically. So that's what I do. And that really makes it much easier to write, get down to brass packs and start writing the detailed copy for everything.

So essentially, it's kind of like a. It's a checkpoint. Right. They've given you feedback, they've given you information, and rather than go straight into the writing, you say, okay, let me make sure I understand where you're going with this. Let me process this. Okay, how about this? Does this hit the mark? Generally, yeah.

And it's been so great because I may be off a little, I may misunderstand something or if it's technical in nature, which I often run into, I'm a pretty fast learner. But there might be some nuances that I don't know because I haven't been in that technical aspect of the field or something. So sometimes that message, that content document that we all hinge everything off of has been the most valuable tool of all, because it's very clear.

Yeah. And I can see doing this for even other projects you may have for the client, as we talked about earlier. Right. So this could be wonderful for that first project. But then as you get into other parts, let's say you started with a website, now you're getting into kind of a brochure for the specific product or whatever. This would probably still be very useful, right?

Well, yeah, and it's a lot of fun. For example, okay, we're done with the core website optimization, and it's good for keyword research. It helps make sure that we're looking for the right phrases that are real phrases that prospects would use in Google. And then third, it's great to help springboard a calendar for blog posts. So you've got this. Okay, let's just say there are five benefits under the main thing that the company stands for. And I'm going to go back to Volvo and safety, just because that's an easy one for me to think of off the cuff here, but okay, so the five things are they're single steel construction. They don't have seams and bolts to come apart. And there's something else so each one of those benefits could be a springboard for a blog series or case study or an interview with thought leaders or all kinds of other content.

That's great. So then you can present those ideas later. Right. I see some great white paper ideas, case studies, blog posts.

Then if you get into an area that's real specific and you're stuck on how to talk about it further, you go and dig up a creative brief for that and say, you know, I don't really quite understand this specific product now that I'm. Now that I have to get really into it. So can we go back and revisit, you know, how do the sales reps get attention? What is the thing that, you know, makes eyes pop open like, yeah, we need that. And what is it that, you know, stands out from the crowd? So, again, that's a mini creative brief for a product.

You know, this idea of kind of checking in and just making sure there's agreement at this stage has been a game changer for me. And it took me several years to get to that point, I'm embarrassed to say. But it really. It made my life so much easier. And I think why I resisted was I didn't want to force myself into kind of this little area. And then if I thought of something else, not have the flexibility to pivot. But I found that, you know what, it's better to come back to them to like in not rush, but take the time to really think through it. Yeah, right. Do the research, read through everything, connect the dots, come back to them with something really thoughtful and get agreement there or make adjustments or whatever, and then get agreement. Then it would be to kind of jump into it and take a big chance, which is what I was doing for a long time. And this is one reason why I was running into so many heavy edits with a lot of my projects.

Well, and sometimes we can't control who sees the copy at what time in the process. For example, I used to work in house in a creative department for B2B company, and we'd be forced to sit in a room and hammer out these things together so that when the designer went off and the copywriter went off to do some work and thinking they were all on the same page. And so without that, it would be a mishmash, and people would come back and say, what do you think of this ad? Well, it's lovely, but it doesn't nail the concept of what we're trying to do here. That's because they didn't all buy in at the beginning on what the concept was. So, I mean, I've used a creative brief my whole life, pretty much since, you know, when I began my career and I worked at an ad agency. That was our marching order. That was our document to work with new clients and make sure we all, everyone on the team knew, okay, this is what this is about.

Yeah. And I can see the importance, especially with. When there are multiple people involved.

Yeah. And with B2B, there usually are. There's a little committee, might be a big committee, but at least more than one person weighing in on the creative.

So what happens if the client has their own creative brief they want to use? How do you reconcile that with maybe some other questions you might have? How do you manage that? Has that happened to you, first of all?

Oh, it happens quite often, depending. I've even worked with agencies for. They've hired me to work on behalf of a couple of their clients because they didn't have someone on staff who understands SEO copywriting. And so they would bring me in to do that, and they would already have a creative brief, because most ad agencies would. But that, to me, is lovely. That saves so much time. And if I do have a few questions, because I'm coming in fresh to it, I can add my questions to it. But no, I think it's great if they have that. That means they've taken time to think through a lot of the things, and we all save time.

Yeah, that's cool. As long as you can add your own stuff. Plus, they've already bought into it, like you said, so that saves you a lot of headache.

Right. But I think it's really fun to go through their creative brief and find a couple things that don't quite make sense, or they conflict each other, or they're not deep enough into what is the unique selling proposition or what is the big W. And it's kind of fun to be the one to discover that, because then they go, oh, she's a genius. And they'll be like, yeah, we didn't think of that. Oh, my God, we have to think a little harder on this one. And I'm really pushy, but in a nice way to get to that bottom line. So what? Who cares if it has these whiz bang gizmos? What does that ultimately mean in one sentence? Emotionally, to your prospect. And even in B2B, you're still selling emotionally. You know, they either want to be a hero at the company or they. To save money, or they. They need to solve a problem and it's on them to solve it. So if your copy, if you can dig in with a client and get to how that client's solution is the bomb, you know, you're a hero.

I love it. I love it. I would think you've probably found a couple of questions before that. You thought, man, I need to add that to my creator brief. I love that.

Well, I got to tell you a funny little story. I won't name what city, but I got contacted by a college, a community college in a particular city, big city, one of the biggest in the country. And they were looking for help with SEO copywriting because they didn't. They show up on Google or Bing or anywhere. And I said, well, what's your URL? And so it was the name of the college, which is not reflective of the city they're in. And I went to their website, and on one, not on any pages, the name of the town was on the outskirts of the city. So not one page of their website actually had the city on it in the content. And so I was like, I think I can fix this for you. If you just put the city in your copy and your headlines and your tags and things like that, you'll definitely have a better chance. And they were like, oh, man. And I said, don't kick yourself. People get too close to these things and they don't see that. But to me, it was like if a homeowner has this problem with their plumbing and the plumber walks and in two seconds goes, oh, yeah, it's this thing that'll be 100 bucks. And the homeowner's like 100 bucks, and goes, yeah, because I know that it was that thing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And that's what the creative brief kind of lets us shine in that way, because we can figure out those things that the plumber can figure out for the homeowner, we can figure out those things for the client that they're too close to. And suddenly we come in and go, well, shoot, that's an awesome benefit. And they're like, gosh, we never thought of that. Ta da.

I just thought of something too. One thing that it can do is it can add value to the client much earlier than normal. So typically, the value they feel is not really felt until you've delivered the work.

Yeah.

Here you're adding value by getting them to think about this stuff right really early in the relationship. And I think they can kind of even things out a little bit, because I've noticed with some clients, especially on longer projects, you know, so they're paying you a deposit, right. There's like this big commitment and they gotta wait a long time to get some of that value back or that value. So here, this kind of changes that a little bit.

Well, quite often I find that they get re energized or re excited about the whole thing. They're sort of, you know, they're so busy and their heads are spinning and they're working on board meetings and all this other stuff and they're like, here's a project, we just need to get it done. And what's your process? Can you just take it off our hands? But when you engage them in the creative brief, it forces them to think about the magic of whatever that solution is, the product, service, whatever. And they get re energized or re excited about it. And then you're like, yay, let's go dancing down the path of roses together.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

All right. So kind of a nuanced question and then a big question.

Okay.

The nuance question is, you may have touched on this earlier, but I'm not sure if I caught it. When you send the creative brief, do you. Do you present it as, look, this is something I'm going to need back from you, and you set that deadline and you don't even offer like an out, like, okay, but if it's too much or if you want to. Right. You make it feel like, look, you got to do this and get it back to me. And if for some reason there's a problem, then you can resort to the, well, let's go over it in a call.

Yeah, right. No, I mean, to me, I make it very clear that for me to do my best job for them, especially if they're a new client, I need to learn about them. And this document will get me up to speed very quickly and it might help them pinpoint what's important to them too. So let's start here with this. This is really important. I'm going to send it to you now. Let's pick a date that it's going to be done and then we'll go over it. If I have questions, it's just a matter of fact thing. There's no out.

No, but what I meant was not an out as in like I don't want to do it, but an out as in like, you can. They just don't want to fill it out and they'd prefer to talk it through with you.

Oh, sure.

So you don't. You don't give them the Option, you say, look, I'm going to need this back. And you only offer to discuss it instead of having them fill it out if they seem to object or don't really like the idea of doing it on their own.

No, I have. I didn't understand the question. I think I definitely am flexible about how we get that thing filled out. And if it's a phone call and I'm typing as they're talking, and then I send it to them to look at one more time and they go, yes, yes, yes. Oh, no, we need to tweak that. That's cool. Whatever it takes to get it done. No, I'm not, you know, like, do it or die kind of thing. Yeah, it's. It's more like whatever it takes to get this done. I'm flexible. Let's figure it out.

That makes sense. I like that.

Yeah.

Like that everyone's different. I've just noticed there's some clients who, they know they do better talking through stuff than they do typing in. Right. Writing. Because that feels like writing to them.

Yeah, yeah. And so. Yes. And then. So that's definitely a flexible option.

Cool. Well, thank you for that. Now, I know that this is like, you talk a lot about creative briefs and you have some training programs and you have one with awai, particularly on web copywriting. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because I know our audience is. We got a lot of webinar writers and online writers here on the show.

Sure, I'd be happy to. It's called working effectively with web clients. And I'll repeat that, Working effectively with web clients. And it includes a creative brief, actually, and walks you step by step through the process of filling it out, working with your clients to make sure it's as complete and useful as possible. And how that is part of a springboard for the rest of your relationship with that client. Everybody moving toward. Sorry, forward with clarity and just, it just makes the whole process so much more agreeable for everybody. So that. That's one of seven steps that I go over in that program.

Well, what I'll do, Pam, is I'll make sure to link to that program for those of you guys who are interested in checking it out and can't promise anything because we're kind of pre recording this. But I'll talk with awi, see if they can give us some sort of deal on it. And if I can work something out, I'll make sure to include that there as well in the show notes.

Great.

Then, finally, where can listeners learn more about you if they want to check you out, read more about what you do and so forth.

Well, I have two websites because before I decided to focus on the pet and veterinary industry, I was doing this work as a freelancer and it's called ContentClear.com the company is called Content Clear Marketing. That's my legal entity and everything. Then I have a specific niche website called petcopywriter.com and that's completely focused on the pet and vet industry. But many of the processes and the way I approach everything are similar in both websites because that's my model. That's how I work. So yep, you can check out those two websites and I guess my LinkedIn page too. Pam Foster Google me on LinkedIn and you'll probably find me. I have a lot of stuff on there.

We'll link to that as well. Okay, cool. Pam. Well this been enlightening and you know, I'm perfectly honest here. Before we talked I wasn't sure on the whole creative brief thing. I knew what they were. I use a very different approach. You've gotten me to think about this again and maybe rework the way I do this with clients.

Oh, that's great. I'm glad and I hope it's a useful tool for everybody who listens in. I mean I have found it to be instrumental in having successful projects.

Oh, I'm sure it will. So thanks for your time. Thanks for your insights today.

You're very welcome.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview. And you know, as I mentioned, this came about from as an idea from some of my listeners. So if you have topic ideas for this this show, I love to hear them. I'm always looking for good suggestions. Please email me atsupport to be launcher.com I wanted to also remind you that you can grab the details show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com forward/episode79 and if you enjoyed this episode, if you're enjoying the show, I'd be grateful if you shared it with friends. The easiest way to do that is just to grab the episode that you've liked most recently. Maybe it's this one. Go to the social media sharing buttons. There's a lot of options there either social media, email, all kinds of things. Really easy to share this content. And one last thing. So the program the Pam mentioned, how to work with web clients. I have reached out to Awai. They've agreed to give me a coupon code that you can use to save 50 bucks. If you decide to pick that up, I'll include the link to the program if you want to learn more about it, and I'll include that in the show notes. Again, b2b launcher.com episode 79 and the coupon code is June save 50. June is in the month June save 50 altogether. They'll save you 50 bucks if you decide to grab that. Full Disclosure I'm an affiliate of American Writers and Artists awai. I occasionally promote some of their programs, especially the ones that I think are directly applicable to this audience. This is obviously one of them. I like Pam a lot. I think she puts together wonderful stuff. You heard her here. She's a seasoned professional. I think she's got a lot to share with you. You can learn a lot from this program. So anyway, no pressure, but check it out and if you like it, feel free to use that coupon code. But I should tell you, the expiration on that is June 30, 2015. So as of this recording, you got a couple of weeks to grab that and take advantage of it. After that, the coupon code will expire. So that brings us to the end of the episode. Again, folks, this has been Ed Gandia. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have an awesome day. The High Income Business Writing Podcast is.

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