#096: James Chartrand on Freelance Copywriting Trends, Simple Ways to Improve Your Writing and th...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Thank you for joining me for episode 96 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find the detailed show notes for this episode by going to b2b launcher.com forward/episode96. So I have a bit of a treat here for you today and my guest is James Chartran. And James is the owner of Men's With Pens, a web design and copywriting company based in Canada. And she's also the creator of Damn Fine Words, which is one of the best and most popular writing courses in the business. And that was not a mistake. You heard right. I said she. If you're not familiar with James and her story, he is actually a she. And the story behind that is pretty interesting. It didn't involve an operation or anything like that. And I tell you, the story of how she came clean is, is fascinating. It's hilarious. She's going to explain that to you here in this episode. She is wicked smart, super fun to talk to and just an all around great person. She is a real writer and copywriter at heart. And in this conversation, James and I are going to talk shop about the latest trends in freelance copywriting, about different ways you can improve your craft, your writing and copywriting craft. She's also going to share some business tips for introverts specifically. And finally, a very simple 200 word a day exercise that will improve your copywriting muscle. This one is very interesting. It's not one I've heard quite described quite this way and I've actually started trying it this week and I'm really enjoying it. So I'll leave it at that. Check it out. I think you're going to enjoy this episode very, very much. Let's get right to that interview. James, James, James, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you here finally.

It's good to be here. It's great to talk to you too.

Awesome. Likewise. Likewise. Hey, before we get, we're going to have kind of a random discussion here today on a lot of topics that I know people are interested in. But why don't you start by giving us kind of a 30 second summary of what you do, where you live. How did you get into this business? All that good stuff.

All that in 30 seconds. Okay.

You can have 45 seconds.

45. I'm James Chartrant. I own MenWithPens CA. It's a web design and copywriting company. Though it is moving more into just copywriting these days. I also own Damn Fine Words dot com. That's where I teach a writing course, a ten week course. Pretty awesome stuff. And I love doing my stuff for there. I have a local company that also does some website copy and design. And by local, I mean in the Great White north of Canada. I live somewhere in the woods near Montreal. How was that? Oh, yes. And I am a woman.

Yeah. You know, we're going to have to address that elephant because I know a lot of people know your story, but some are maybe hearing from you for the first time.

That is possible. The nutshell version of that. Way back when I got started, I started out as myself under my given name as a woman. And it was a really hard goal of things. I found I got stuck at a certain plateau and I wasn't getting the respect that I wanted for my ideas and my work. I ran a little experiment where I switched my name to a man's name because there were a lot of male copywriters at that time and not that many women. So I played their game, upped the ante and ran with the name James Chartrand. And it worked like gangbusters. So I figured why, you know, why take away something if it isn't broken? I kept that pen name and I've been using it for years.

And I love. And I'm going to have to link to this in the show notes. I love when you came out like in public with that blog post. I forget where was it in Copyblogger.

It was on Copyblogger. It's called why James Chartrand Wears Woman's Underpants.

It's like the best.

No one had any clue. And it just basically blew the lid off gender perceptions in the writing world and in a lot of other industries as well. So it's a really great thing to have gone through. I wouldn't want to go through it again. But it did do a lot of good things in the world and I'm really glad that happened.

I love that post for so many reasons. Not only because of your courage, but also the story you told. And from a marketing standpoint, it's just absolutely brilliant. There's so many things you could learn from what you did there, including that amazing title.

Well, that was Brian's title. Brian Clark, who Owns Copyblogger. Once upon a time, found out who I was. And he said, if you ever want to tell the story, you tell it on my website. And I said, okay. And when it came time to tell the story, I was so frazzled by all the media attention that he's like, I'm going to put a title on this. I wrote the whole rest of the post and told the whole story in great detail, but he picked the title. So there you go.

I love it. I love it. It's brilliant. So I'm curious. I'd like to start by talking a bit about some of the trends that you're seeing out there. So you and I both work with a lot of writers and copywriters, right? And it's a business that continues to evolve. Just kind of the world of freelance writing, freelance copywriting. I'm curious, what trends and patterns have you been noticing over the past couple of years? Anything that you're kind of paying attention to that's interesting and people are kind of worried about or thinking about.

It's interesting because you and I got in very early in the game. I've been doing this for about a decade, which is a million years. In Internet years, everything has changed all the time. It has never stopped changing. And whoever was online got really, really good at what they did in terms of freelancing, in terms of writing, in terms of copywriting, in terms of learning all those skills that they need. And the ante has always been going up and up and up and up and up. Recently, I found things are getting a little crazy. The blog post, the articles, everything out there is overwhelming, not just in terms of how much content that there is out there, but in terms of the standards that we need to keep to be the best in the business. And I find there are impossible standards. It's not a bad thing in that it's really weeded out the masters of the craft from those who really don't belong in that space and should probably be doing something else. It's also giving the people who do have good skills the opportunity to stand out and say, I really am better than most people so I can start this freelance writing business. But it's interesting to me because I see things evolving and I see all this content shot going on, and I see the standards going higher. And I can't help but think, well, what happens next? Because it's not sustained. So I have my eye on what would be the next thing coming when it all crashes down, as it invariably will. We're all Human beings, we just can't be perfect. There is no such thing. And I think things are going to get a little bit more traditional. I think things are going to calm down and, you know, everybody's going to be able to settle into something that is a lot more normal. It's going to be less focused about being a master online, and it's going to shift more to being good online and in the real world on the street. I'm excited about that because I think there's a lot to learn from traditional brick and mortar businesses that people who work solely online don't yet have enough of. So I think that's a really interesting direction for things to be going and it's an involvement that I want to be part of myself. Does that make sense?

It does. I hadn't really thought about it that way, and that makes a lot of sense. And it kind of reminds me of, as I'm listening to you, there's a trend that I'm seeing, which is this whole issue of I don't just need a writer. It's important that you understand how my business works. It's important that you understand the context, the market, the drivers of that market.

Yes, right.

What, what's. Of course, it's always been the what keeps up my prospect at night. But it goes beyond that and it goes. And it gets into sales funnels, into where does what you're doing fit within the context of marketing and my business strategy? It's really kind of becoming an integral part of the business. Don't you think that. Right. That's. A lot of people who are hiring writers would love to work with someone like that.

Well, if you look at it, you're not just playing with someone's copy. You're not just writing someone's content. You're actually literally affecting their business as a whole. You're affecting its profitability, you're affecting its effectiveness as a business. You can make or break a business. So business owners don't want someone who's just going to write a good article. They want someone who's going to write something that fits into everything their business does and helps it stay alive. And I think that's really important to understand because you can spend a lot of money on just good content without knowing the actual business impact that it has and how influences someone's bottom line and revenue.

Yeah, that's. No, that's. That's a great point. There's much higher value there. So do you think that if, if someone were to get. Because it's not just training. I mean, I think this goes beyond training.

I think a lot of it involves, you know, just good common sense and being able to look at all gears in the cog or all cogs in the gears, whichever comes first. I'm no mechanic with, which is why I'm a writer. But I think if somebody hires me to work on a sales page, well, okay, what else do they have? Do they have this in place? Do they have that? Do they need this first? Should the sales page come after? You have to look at everything as a whole and it has to involve a lot of common sense. There's some business skills that come into there for sure. You need to know project management, you need to know a little bit about sales and marketing, you need to know some consumer psychology. But there's a lot of common sense. If I do this, what happens next?

So when you talked earlier about kind of a standard that's becoming harder and harder to meet, I'm curious, can you expand on that a little bit?

I sure can. Someone, I don't want to speak bad about anyone, so I'm just going to use as an example Quick Sprout. They have amazing blog posts, huge in depth guides and they publish them every week and they will walk you through every step of everything that you would ever want to know about whatever they're talking about. It's fantastic. If I had to do that as a writer every single day, I would not be in this business. It's just not sustainable. And keeping up with that kind of standard in terms of competitiveness, if the next guy who is running another business similar to Quickspout has the same level of content, well, now they're competing with each other and the bars are getting higher. And then you add a third competitor in, well, now the bars are getting even higher. At what point does that kind of level of content stop? At what point do we say this is enough not only for the writers who are writing it, but for the people who have to absorb it in. Well, there's only so much we can ask a person to do in a day. So our readers can't read that much content, that much in depth all the time. And we as writers can't write that level of content all the time as well. It's very, very important to keep sustainability in mind, you know, in terms of business. And I always have that in back of my mind. How is this possibly sustainable?

That's a great point. I hadn't really thought about that directly, but it's something that has bothered Me, as a content creator myself, it's that the bar keeps going up, which is excellent. But there comes a point where all you're doing is just creating, creating, creating, because you have this standard to maintain, and it's like a horse race you can't win. Yeah, exactly. And then you're right. You go to these sites that are doing an amazing job with. With content, even of outside of your industry, and you feel so not worthy. You feel like you're slacking.

Exactly.

Yeah. They're putting it out every day.

Yeah. And writing is hard enough. It takes a lot of energy, not just creativity and the ability to turn a thought into something really cool in words. But it's tiring. Your eyesight, tired, your body gets tired. It saps a lot from you. So you have to be kind to yourself. And we're not Olympic athletes in the content world, as much as we like to think we are. No one is. And I think there comes a point where we have to remember that good enough is good enough. It's what anyone would say if they're about to launch a business product. No business holds itself back saying it has to be better than the best and better than even that. They often reach a point where they say, okay, it's good enough to go. So as content writers, we have to do the same for ourselves and to look at everything with a critical eye and say, you know, that content over there is just way too awesome. Sometimes good enough is good enough, and it helps keep us in perspective for our own work.

So we've mentioned a couple already, but any other challenges that you see writers facing today, beyond the obvious that you'd like to address?

You know, the biggest challenge I see is a lot of people, and I'm really bringing it back to the regular world where all of us are just web writers trying to earn a living. Let's bring it back to there. The biggest challenge that I see is a lot of people want to get into writing, but they don't actually know how to run a business. They don't know how to pitch people. They don't know how to market their business. They don't know how to bill properly or write nice emails to get the bills paid on time. They don't know how to do accounting. It sounds boring and silly, and there are great apps for that. I'm fully for using whatever software is out there, but knowing how a business runs is a really valuable skill set to have, and I think it really helps writers of all kinds not just be a good writer, but Just be a healthier person with a stronger skill set that's far more resilient for today's world.

What would you recommend people do? Like, if somebody's listening and they agree with you, they know they have some trouble shortcomings, but they don't even know where to start, or maybe some areas to focus on. What would you recommend?

Oh, my goodness. Oh, you might have stumped me with that question.

See, you mentioned. Let's. Let's take one. Let's take a couple of them. Like, one of them was this whole issue, like business courtesy or just. Just knowing how to interact with other people, interpersonal skills and so forth.

You know what I think my best answer is? There's a course for that. There's a course for every one of these things that I've mentioned. There's a course for anything out there these days. And when you choose really specific courses that focus only on one skill set that is immediately valuable to your business, I think it's a really good investment. And I take courses every year myself to keep updated with things. And it's not courses like how to write the next great sales page. It is courses on how to do better customer acquisition. I take really specific courses in certain areas that I know I can put to good use right away for my business. Not just for my writing skills, but for my business. So I think that would be my biggest advice for anyone. Look at that area that makes you a little nervous that you're not comfortable with if you don't like talking with clients on the phone or you don't like doing your accounting. But these are necessary to your business and to your growth. That would be a great course to take.

Yeah. And I would argue that there are some things that it may not be worth taking a course for. It might be better to. Like you mentioned accounting, bookkeeping. It's one of the first things that I outsource because it just.

Oh, really? I do my own books. That's so funny.

Oh, just hearing you say that just lowered my energy level by 50%. I just drained the energy out of my body. Yeah. It's just a thought. Thought of it alone makes me cringe. And I was a foreign major.

I always thought. I love to count my own gold. I'm like King Midas, but at the same time, I find there's value in knowing where my dollars go and how they get there and what they do once they're there. So it was really interesting for me to learn how to do my own books, and it gave me A much better understanding of how my business runs so that I could make good decisions about where to spend money and where to invest money and when to cut something that wasn't working and when to add something that looked really profitable. It was the best thing I could have done. I wrote a book on it. So there you go.

Oh, well, there it's. By the way, I do agree with you. I did it for about five years. I just. Yeah, it was five years. Some of that was.

Well, you did it long enough to know you don't want to do it. Right.

Exactly. And you do learn a lot. You do learn a lot. Of course, looking back, I'm glad I did it while I was in the middle of it. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. But in all fairness, there came a point where it was just overwhelming because thankfully, my business was doing well. But when I had the time and little in the way of resources to pay somebody else to do it, then I just did it myself.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's another thing, too, is making good decisions about when to know when to cut something off and get someone else to do it, because your time is really valuable as a writer.

Yes, yes. I'm with you 100%. So, yeah. So it's. Look, find out where your shortcomings are. Be honest with yourself. Ask a good friend or colleague to maybe give you some feedback there, and take very specific courses or read very specific books to help you in those key areas. I think it's great advice. One of the things I see, James, is I see this a lot in the freelance community because of the low barriers to entry. A lot of people are fooled into believing, well, I don't need to invest because, you know. Right. I didn't have to invest to really get my business started. Right. Maybe just a laptop and a phone and maybe some software, but other than that, I didn't have. So it creates this false perception about what it takes to be successful.

Yeah. I don't know any single person, any single writer, any single freelancer who has not broken that barrier of true success without proper investment. I can't think of one. The ones that didn't invest or that really hold on to scrounging, they're all at the same place that they were five years ago, which is unfortunate because that's really just fear holding you back. Right?

It is, it is. So. So let's switch gears a little bit.

Okay.

Because you mentioned, you know, working with others, and if you don't like to be on the phone, you Know, you got to learn how to. How to manage and lead a call successfully. You recently addressed this whole issue of introverts and how introverts can. Can better adapt to situations that are better suited for a more extroverted person. I consider myself, I guess they call it an ambivert these days somewhere in the middle. But I can definitely, when I listened to you and read your advice on this, a lot of this resonated with me. So can you speak a little bit about some of the situations introverts find themselves in and maybe some ideas in how they can better manage those situations?

I sure can. You know, it's funny because a lot of writers, I hear it all the time, they choose writing because it is such an introverted activity. They don't need to go see people. They can do everything from home. All they need is a laptop. It's the easiest business in the world to start. And it's also the easiest business for introverts because they just don't need to have that socialization that they don't like to have. And that's okay. It was kind of a dirty word for a long time. Oh, you're an introvert. And, you know, it seemed to be that everyone who was an extrovert got the opportunities and got to live the great life. But the truth is, introverts have a lot of value to offer and a few that I had addressed in that article I wrote. We're not dysfunctional. We just have a different way of coming to the world. We recharge our batteries by being quiet and inside ourselves. Big events tire us out, but we're great listeners. We observe like crazy. We see all kinds of details that other people don't. We like to reflect and think before we take action. And, you know, we let other people shine. We do a really good job, but someone else can go out and take all the credit and the awards and the stage presence, that's fine with us. These are great qualities to have. So I don't see anything wrong with being an introvert. And in fact, I think the introverts of the world have a great advantage over the extroverts in many cases. But it is difficult. If it was up to me, I'd stay in my house 24, seven all year long. I'd go out maybe one once a year. You know, grocery shopping makes me tired. There's so much lights and noise and people. I hate talking with people on the phone. Except for you, of course. There's a lot of things that, you know, for Me, they're give or take. I'm better off in my quiet space. That said, I am in business. I do need to get comfortable with being with other people, with being with my clients, with talking with people. So there were a lot of things that I did to train myself to be okay with that. One of the best things that I could have done, I joined a class. I take a singing class. I've been in it for eight years. All I have to do, I go out once a week for two hours with a group of people that have become familiar to me and I do something I enjoy. It gets me seeing people, it gets me out there, it gets me comfortable with doing stuff in front of other people. And it really helps me remember there's a world beyond my own home. And it's short. It's once a week, two hours, I come back home, I rest, I recoup. So that's one good thing. I know a lot of writers are creative people. There are all kinds of great, great classes out there that they could go do. Painting, drawing, you know, walking in the woods, groups, hiking stuff. There's all kinds of stuff that's really fun to do and it doesn't take a lot of time and it really gets you being used to being around people. Another thing, I always say yes to calls. I don't like them, they make me nervous, but I say yes to them. And the best way that I found to deal with a call is I give myself a 15 minute stress out session every call. I have 15 minutes before it's time to stress it and I really give it my all. I smoke lots of cigarettes, I taste the house. I go through all the crazy scenarios in my mind about how terrible this call will be. I really stress out about it and then the call comes and it's fine. I've done all my stressing, it's fine, gone. I'm able to just take the call and do a great job with it.

So, so instead of worrying the whole day, what you're saying is you defer all worrying and stress until the 15 minutes prior to the call.

And it really works. It sounds silly, but you know, four hours before the call you start to feel a little anxious and you're like, oh no, no, I'll save that for my stress out session. And then you keep going with whatever you're doing. It's, it really works. It's really useful.

Wow, I never thought I've heard about this with other things, but never with stress. I'm going to have to add that to my list of focus ideas because I believe one of the biggest problems facing creatives who work from home is maintaining focus. I know one of the reasons that I get unfocused sometimes is worry and fear.

Yeah, well, for sure, you're that kind of person. We all are, aren't we?

Yeah, yeah. It's just, oh my gosh, I got this thing later today and you agonize over it and that just shuts off that creative, you know, pipe if you will and.

Yeah, yeah, but if you give yourself a dedicated stress out session and you remind yourself, no, no, I'll save that for later. 11 o' clock is my stress out session and you do it then and you just give it your all. Makes it a piece of cake. It really does. And it lets you do what you need to do without stressing out and worrying about what's to come way down the road during the day.

Have you noticed that getting out, you know, and joining that class you mentioned doing those things, is it kind of like exercising that muscle that you know you'll never have fully developed, but it's still important to work it? Have you noticed a difference in, in the way you interact with clients and others just from pushing yourself out of your comfort zone?

Yes, I have a business manager. I hired him a couple of months ago and recently I asked him, I said, you know what? I can't stand going to see clients, so I want you to go out and do this little market survey and hand out a pamphlet and just be a nice guy. And every day when he would go out to do this job, I almost felt sick to my stomach for him because I couldn't do these things. And then I went along with him for one and it wasn't that bad. And then the next day I went for two and it wasn't that bad. It wasn't great. And I had my moments of discomfort and I was glad when those two were done. It wasn't that bad. And the next day I did a few more and now it's okay. I never feel 100% comfortable and it does tire me out and I do limit how many people I see, but it works. It really works. It's kind of like desensitization. If you have to pet a dog when you're scared with dogs, you look at a picture and then you sit next to a dog and get closer progressively. And it's like that you just desensitize yourself a little bit to what makes you uncomfortable.

I think that's great advice. So you Mentioned that you'd love to just kind of stay home and curl up with a book. I'm curious, when you think about some of the best books you've read over the past year, can you maybe recommend one or two that it really stick out as is? True winners?

Patrick Rotha, the Wise Man Fear. I love that book. I love the way he writes the story. I love the words he uses. It's like higher level fantasy fiction or sci fi, whatever you want to call it. I just love the way this guy writes.

I'm not familiar with his work. How do you spell his last name?

R O, T H. F as in Frank, U. S as in Sam. S as in Sam. Patrick Rothfuss. And he's this great guy. He's this big bearded fellow that looks like he could be the best dwarf in the world, but he's like giant sized and he says the wittiest things and he's sharp and sly and I just want to be him, but not in that big bearded way.

I love it. I'm going to have to look that up.

Well worth it.

Anything else come to mind? Any other, any other books? Any genre?

Scott lynch writes. Yeah. You know, I'm supposed to quote the greatest business book that everyone's reading right now, like Drive or Posture or whatever it's called, but I don't enjoy reading business books. I find myself skimming through them going, oh yeah, I know that, I know that, I know that. Oh, that's okay. I know that. I don't have the patience for them. Scott lynch has a great series that involves someone called Locke Lamora and their adventure stories. And he just writes his characters in such a brilliant way and they have great dialogue between them and they do these adventures that have twists and turns you couldn't see coming. And I love the way he lays them out. I take a lot of what I do, a lot of my sales, copy my content. The really good stuff has always been written. When I've been reading fiction, I find that fiction really helps me write good descriptions and emotional paragraphs and the right kind of sentences with the perfect words. So I'm really big on fiction. So Scott Lynch, Locke Lamora, we'll have.

To look that one up too. I've noticed you're really good with that. And that is one thing. That is one type of writing that I do not excel in. So I admire that very much.

I think it's the best training for sales and marketing, learning how to write some fiction stories and just having fun with words in that creative Way in the true sense of creativity of worlds that you can't imagine and you have to paint pictures in people's minds. I think it's the best training for. For writers.

Yeah, I find. So I am a little different in that I love to read. I guess you could call them business books, so. But many times I don't think of them as business books. Or they could be personal development or professional development. Well, I guess it all falls into that category, But I will read that during a day, but I cannot read anything close to that at night, so.

Really?

Yeah, I can, because my brain just like, just goes haywire. So I read every night when I go to bed for up to what's.

On your bookshelf right now, what's by your bedside today?

Today. So I've been really into biographies. Right now I'm halfway through the biography of Elon Musk. Of Tesla and SpaceX.

Yeah, yeah.

Very interesting guy.

Biographies are so much fun, eh?

They are fun. And it could be anybody. Like, honestly, I will read a biography of just about anybody who's had an interesting life, just because as long as I know who they are, otherwise it just has no context for me. But they are fun. They are fun just to kind of see behind the curtain and see how other people think and why they did what they did. And I find it fascinating.

Yeah, it is. I go on bent sometimes. Like, I. At one point, I was interested in the gas chambers, and there's a lot of books about people's memoirs of the gas chambers in the Nazi days. And I read those, and they were just. It's just fascinating to see what these people have lived through. And there was another time when I was reading books on athletes. There's a whole bunch of athletes who've written memoirs. And it's just crazy, the stuff that these people go through. You know, I really like it.

It is. So let's switch gears again to back to writing. The craft of writing. You focus a lot and you write a lot about the art of writing, becoming a better writer.

I try to, yeah.

And you do a great job of that. And I'm curious, though, if you could maybe offer two or three specific ideas on what writers can do to get better, Maybe habits, practices. We've all heard the write every day. But aside from that, what's simple?

Actually, I don't subscribe to that. Don't write every day. Don't write every day. Be a normal human being. If you don't feel like writing on a weekend, don't write on a weekend. If you're supposed to write until 3pm and it's one and you're tired and fed up, just stop. I'm a firm believer in we have a set amount of ability to write every day. And when it stops, I find that pushing yourself through, not wanting to write only brings bad things. That's been my experience. Other people find that pushing themselves through and writing every day does amazing things. I'd go crazy. I'd just go crazy.

You know, I'm taking a break from journaling. I was journaling as part of my morning routine and I've changed that and expanded the writing I do. And I've added meditating into, into the mix and so far I'm enjoying it. I. I know I'm gonna go back to the journaling because to me it's totally freeform. It's morning pages. It's. I don't.

I dare you to write a short story. I. 200 words every day. I dare you to do it.

All right.

Challenging you.

All right, well you just. All right, so you double dared me. I'm gonna have to do it.

So.

Yeah, well, let's start there. What about that? Is that something that you recommend people try?

I do, actually. You know why? It's just intrinsically satisfying when a writer can write something just for fun. No pressure, no client demands, no have to be better, no nothing. Just write and doing it by writing a little short story, adding a few paragraphs every single day. It's a really great way to warm up, get yourself going, get your thinking about words and how you use them on a page, but in a really fun, no pressure way. So I really recommend that people do this. And I found that when people write a little bit of a short story every day, they suddenly have a lot less struggle around writing the stuff that they have to write, like for clients or for their business, because they've just written something fun, they're relaxed, they're into it, and it makes the work stuff that much easier to do. I think my personal challenge these days, what I'm working on and what I do recommend for other people is to write as short as possible and as to the point as possible in a way that still sounds natural. I tend to write long. I've always written long. My articles are long, my sentences are long, and I've tried to start trimming that back down and say what I want to say in a natural sounding way that doesn't sound sleazy or spammy or too to the point, too blunt. It's really been a challenge. I didn't realize how difficult but at the same time it's fun. How short can I get this and make it still sound like me? So I'll write something long and I'll trim back a little bit and I'll rewrite it a different way and I'll trim that a little bit more and I just keep shortening it down and I got a thousand word email down to 150 words. It was brilliant. It was great. Wow. It's a challenge. So many for those who like to do or die. I think.

It sounds painful, but I see the benefit. So. But going back to your. To the advice about the story part. So you recommended maybe just tell yourself it's only going to be a couple hundred words and you're adding to the story. So we're not talking about just a quick little 200 word story. You're talking about continuing to add to the same story.

Yeah. No outline, no idea where it's going.

Just let it kind of develop and.

Unfold as you start with the first sentence can be something like he was sitting by the fire when he realized his boot was getting warm. And just write, just write what happens next and who is this person and why is he sitting by the fire and have fun and then stop and the next day you just pick up where you left off. No plan, no outline, no plot. Just write a little story. It will go places on its own. Believe me. Really good short stories have come from absolutely nothing. For the sheer hell of them. It's a really great, no pressure way to get going.

That's fantastic.

And I think it reminds us all that writing words is not always about writing good content for people. Sometimes it's just about I like to write like I like to knit or I like to do macrame or whatever people like to do just because they like to do it.

Well, it's. You're right. And then I know that that's why my journaling works is because I know no one's going to read this. It doesn't have to be good. In fact, I don't go back and read it later, even months later. So I give myself permission to let it be true. Stream of consciousness.

Obviously it does really good things for you.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. In terms of tools, tools for writers, anything that you're really into that's helped you.

I suppose Microsoft Word doesn't count, does it?

Aside from Microsoft Word, any tools, even if it's kind of outside of writing, but that it helps you to be.

Honest, the printer and post it notes. I've tried all kinds of apps. I've tried Evernote. I've tried Scribner. I've tried everything there is out there. I just can't stick with stuff longer than two weeks. I just find it gets in the way of what I really need to do. And my best tools for writers have always been printing out whatever I'm writing and reading it on paper. I know that's like taboo for Greenpeace these days, but there is value. You read differently on paper than you do on a screen. And I've caught a lot of stuff and been able to fix it because I print stuff out on paper. And the other thing is post it notes. I have various colors of post it notes all over the place. And the satisfaction of knowing that whatever I have to do is capture it on a single post. It's is great. As is the satisfaction that comes with being able to whip it off wherever it is and throw it in the garbage once it's done. Works fabulously.

You and I have a lot more in common than you think. I am such a paper and pen guy. I mean, I still got my Franklin Planner here in front of me. And you're right, I have to print it out. I recycle. Recycle my paper. Yeah, I print on both sides, if that helps. And then I. I take it when I'm done and, you know, I'll make paper airplanes out of it. But yeah, I'm with you. It does make a difference.

It makes a huge difference. I actually did the experiment of not printing anything for quite a long time, and then I went back to some of those pieces and printed them out like six months later.

I think it's fine, you know, use tools that are going to make you better. But fun stuff.

We really get to do our jobs however we freaking well, please. You know, nobody has to do a job a certain way, like a factory line kind of job. We all get to personalize our entire career however way we'd like it. That's kind of cool.

I wouldn't have it any other way. Well, James, this has been a lot of fun and I appreciate you coming on the show and having a. I'm.

Glad you invited me. Thank you for inviting me. It's been a long time since we've talked and I enjoy talking to you. So there you go. And I hope I've said things of value and not rambled on too long. I have a tendency to do that.

You absolutely have. Meaning, said things of value and before we sign off, where can listeners learn more about you, where can they connect with you in the social web, etc.

These days I'm pretty focused on my writing course at Dancefine Words, so come check it out@damn finewords.com you'll always find me there. You can also find me on Twitter. My handle is menwithpens and you can find me on my main home site@menwithpens, ca or.com I finally got the oh wow.

I did not know that you didn't have it. Mine, of course goes to CA automatically because it remembers. But good for you. Yeah, well, we'll include no, the dot.

Com was held by some small group of Irish writers somewhere overseas and by God they were not giving it up. And I just waited until they gave it up and then I took it.

You sent the mob over there, right? The Canadian mob.

Exactly.

Well, James, thanks. Thanks again. We'll include links to all those in the show notes. It was really fun. We need to do this again.

We do. Take care and thanks again for having me.

Well folks, I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I enjoyed putting it together for you. And again, I wanted to remind you that you can grab the detail show notes for this episode@b2b. Launcher.com Episode 9600 this and every set of show notes that I produce is a really good summary of what we talk about in the podcast. So if you want to go back to anything, reference, any links, any resources, if you just want a summary, just to see if it's something you want to listen to, you know, you can always go to that page for the episode and check it out there. And before I sign off, I wanted to let you know that I'm about to start an another small group of the 2x project and I've just opened the application process for that program. The 2x project is designed for writers and copywriters who are already earning somewhere between 30,000 to $80,000 a year or the part time equivalent of that, but who also feel stuck in this range. If you're a good fit and you join me, we'll work together to double your income over the next 2012 to 18 months without doubling your effort or working longer hours. Or we'll work together to achieve a combination of higher income, better clients, and more time off. Depends on what you want to accomplish. I'm quickly developing a track record for helping established freelance writers double their income. And you know, I'm not claiming I could do the same for you, but depending on your specific situation, I may be able to help you get there faster than you think. Anyway, if this sounds intriguing, I invite you to learn more about this opportunity at 2xb2b.com forward/info I have only 12 spots and some are already taken and I'll tell you that the rest are going to go pretty fast. I sold out last time I offered the 2x project. It will probably happen again this time around. So that brings us to the end of the episode. Again, I am your host, Ed Gandia. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have an awesome day. Take care. The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.