#097: Mark McGuiness on Motivation for Creative People

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Well, hello there. Thank you for joining me for episode 97 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find detailed show notes for this episode by going to b2b launcher.com Episode 97 I don't know if you've ever felt this way, but I find that self employment can be both a blessing and a curse. A lot of friends who are envious of my work situation and you know, I think they probably should be, but sometimes I want to tell them that it's not all rainbows, sunshine and unicorns. It can be a blessing because as a self employed professional I know I can chart my own course. I like being in control of where I'm going. I like being able to pursue the projects and clients that are interesting to me and I like the ability to adjust my workload and schedule however I'd like. I don't want somebody else telling me when I have to work, when I can't work, when I can't take my vacation. But that kind of freedom can also lead to a lack of discipline, lack of motivation. Especially if you're not careful, it could creep up on you very, very quickly. And the question that I wrestle with is as creative professionals with that kind of freedom, how do we stay on track? How do we find the motivation to do the work we know we have to do even when we don't feel like doing it? Because even when we're working on the coolest project with the most amazing client, sometimes we're not going to be in the mood or have the motivation to do certain things aspects of the work. So my guest today is an expert on this topic. His name is Mark McGinnis and Mark is a business coach, a trainer and consultant specializing in work with creative professionals with innovative companies and other trendsetters. He is also the author of the new book Motivation for Creative People which is excellent. I highly recommend that book. And Mark is also a very talented poet and a super, super nice guy. We broke bread a few months ago actually last year during a conference. Had a great time, shared some great food and great wine and really enjoy talking with Mark and just sharing ideas with him. So anyway, I hope you enjoy this conversation and that you get Some good value from it. Hey, Mark Welco, welcome to the show. It's good to have you here.

Thanks, Zach. Very nice to be here with you.

Yeah. So, you know, you and I have had some great conversations on this topic, and I'm anxious to get into this because it's obviously something we're all dealing with all the time. And there are some, both practical aspects and some other aspects of this conversation that a lot of people don't really think, think about that are important to really, to do great work and to make sure that we're happy doing this great work. So it's. I'm glad we have the chance to talk about this.

Well, thanks, Ed. It's very nice to be on the show.

Let's start with kind of the basic question because, I mean, I know we're. We all have our assumptions about this, right? But talk about motivation. I mean, what exactly is motivation? When we're talking about motivation here today, what are we really speaking about?

Okay, well, good question to start with. To me, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of definitions, but to me, I deliberately have a broad one, which is whatever gets you moving. So I've gone back to the Latin root, which is to do with to move. And you see that immediately rules out what sometimes we talk about, well, motivation as an excuse. So, well, I'd love to do that, but I don't have enough motivation, therefore I'm not going to do it. So to me, motivation is not like some kind of magic potion that you have to ingest before you can go out there and conquer the world. It's whatever you use, whatever has an effect on you, internal or external, that actually gets you moving. So it could be, I know a lot of your listeners, writers or creatives, you know, we all have a motivation to do that because we love doing it. But we also have a motivation because, you know, we're professionals. We want to earn a living from this. We also want to maintain professional standards, maybe have some profile within our community or audience. So, you know, right away there's a mixture of different things that can motivate us. And I guess for me, the central point is if you're just relying on one of these, like doing it for love or doing it for money or doing it for the recognition or doing it because you've committed to other people, that's not going to be enough. There will be days when it doesn't work to get you out of bed or to do the difficult thing. But for me, the art of motivation in A professional career is being really clear about the different kinds of motivation that drive you and also combining them in ways that they complement each other and there's no conflict.

That's a great way to look at. Seems like many of us are looking at it one dimensionally. Until I started reading your work, I know I wasn't really thinking about what motivated me beyond a couple of things that seemed obvious. One of them being just the challenge of the work.

Right.

It wasn't predictable, of course, it was a financial aspect as well, being, you know, the main breadwinner in my family. So things like that. But you've opened up kind of the door for all the other things that drive us and could help us get moving, as you said. And I appreciate that. So let's talk about motivation and creativity, because these are obviously linked. But how are they linked?

Well, this is something that 10 years ago, I took some time out to do a master's after probably about. I'd been coaching for 10 years and doing other kind of business activity. And I treated myself. I took some time out and did a master's. And it was a really great opportunity to reflect and, you know, do some reading, look at the research, you know, that would inform the next phase of my career. And one of the things that I discovered when we studied theories of creativity was the research on different types of motivation and creativity. So a real standout for me was the finding that what the psychologists call intrinsic motivation, that is doing it for love, is very highly correlated with creativity. So in a nutshell, that means the more focused you are on the work itself and the sheer pleasure of doing it, regardless of the rewards, regardless of the outcome, regardless of the money, regardless of what your client says or how many retweets it gets or Amazon reviews you get, that's when you're at your most creative. And, you know, they did some classic experiments used with children where they would get one group of children, go and draw a picture and have fun, and you've got an hour and here's the pens and paper, and those kids would go off and do their picture. Then there would be another group where they would say, now if you can draw me a really good picture, you will get a reward. You'll get to play with this toy, or you'll have a suite or whatever it was. And consistently they found that the first group was much more creative and original in the work that they produced than the second. Because the first group is obviously just drawing for the love of it, whereas the second group is trying to second guess what the grown ups want and what do I have to do to get the reward. And of course this is all very nice and charming and what maybe the romantics and in us would want that when you create for love, that's when you're at the most creative. But if you're a professional, then you can't afford to ignore what the client says or how much you're going to get paid for it, or if you're in the social media space, how many retweets you get or what other opportunities it's going to bring to you. You need to factor that into your thinking. So this is where I started from with the book was this basic tension between the thing that can bring you the rewards, that is your writing or your design or whatever your creative medium may be. If you focus too much on the rewards, then you won't get them. Which is a kind of a. It's a paradox that can be a real source of tension in your mind if you're trying to balance these two out. So that was really where I started off, was thinking about, well, how do I manage that, how do my clients manage that? How can I help people to do that better? And that was originally, it was a blog series. That's where the ideas that led to the book came from.

I pulled a quote from your book and I guess it sums up what you just said and I love the way you stated it. And it's impossible to achieve your professional ambitions without pursuing rewards, but focusing on rewards can kill your creativity. That tension is ever present, isn't it?

Yeah, it is, it is. And you can, you know, as I know myself and I'm sure you and many other people listening, you know, it can really get you stuck because you can feel that it's got to be one or the other. Particularly when we're younger, maybe it feels like it's either pursuing your art or pursuing the money and success. But hopefully as we get a little older and wiser, we find ways to combine the two so that they can actually support each other. Because it's not a huge leap to realize that actually if I have the money coming in, if I have a good standing in my professional community, if I have clients who know and love the work that I do that obviously supports the work that I do, I can relax more, I can give it my full attention and it becomes a virtuous circle in that scenario. So obviously that's what we're looking for to find a way of having time in the day when you're totally focused on the work and you know, the proverbial stuff that we've all heard many times, no email, no phones, no interruptions, et cetera. Totally, you know, like those little kids doing their drawings. Totally focused on making the work the best we can do. Meanwhile, because we've done some, hopefully some creative thinking and experimenting with our business model and, you know, we're putting ourselves out there in a bold way to say this, this is what I can do and these are my conditions for work, that the rewards will come and the two will support each other.

So one of the things you talk about in your book, and a lot of the book, is based on the four different types of motivation. Those four categories in the pinwheel, can you tell us what they are and maybe give us a summary of each and what it is, what each is about?

Sure. So I've already talked about two of them. The intrinsic, so the love of doing the work itself, and then the rewards for the work, whether it's money or status or opportunity or whatever. Now, kind of crossing that, if you can imagine, like a pinwheel with four blades, you have got what I call personal motivation, which is your core values as an individual, which comes down to your personality, that we all have different priorities depending on who we are as a person. And then opposite that is the social motivation. So this is influences from people around us. So, you know, clearly there's a tension between that, you know, there's what I want to do and then there's what the world is pushing me towards doing, or what the world will support me to do, or what, you know, other people's feedback is telling me. And again, you know, this can either be a real conflict, real black and white, or it can be a creative tension. And obviously what you're looking to do is to have all four blades of the pinwheel. So the example I use in the book is the Victorian novelist Anthony Trollope, who got up, according to his autobiography, half past five every morning to write his novels before breakfast because he had a full time job and his novel writing was kind of an entrepreneurial venture in his mind. He loved writing stories, so that's intrinsic motivation. But he had also worked out how many books he needed to sell a year, therefore how many he needed to publish, therefore how many chapters a month, words per hour he needed to write in order to achieve financial freedom and quit his job. So this is kind of Victorian entrepreneurship. He didn't have the laptop and the Internet and so on, but he was sat there at his desk Like a lot of us writing away now, I'm sure plenty of people listening to this have carved out time in the evenings or mornings or weekends to create their side project that they want to be the main gig. Well, this is exactly what Trollope did. Now, of course, the critics shot him down. They thought it was terrible that he wrote for money, but, hey, he was honest enough to say this was part of his goals. But it wasn't that he was sat there every morning thinking of the money, because he wrote 47 novels. And I don't think you can write 47 novels unless you really like writing novels. I mean, there's no way you're going to have the creative energy to do that. So when he's at his desk, I think he was just totally lost in the story. But he'd taken a big picture strategic decision and calculated that he could afford to invest in this and it would, over time, bring him the rewards that he wanted. So that's the intrinsic and extrinsic good balance between those two. On the personal, again, you have to say somebody who's going to get up at half past five and write 47 novels before breakfast probably is quite a disciplined person, is quite an ambitious person, is a committed person, which is undoubtedly true from what we know of him, but at the same time, entirely down to himself. So another thing he said in the autobiography was he paid his old man servant £5 a year, which was quite a lot in those days, to wake him at half past five with the coffee. And I think this was quite a clever use of social motivation on Trollope's part, because imagine if you're the Victorian, he was the lord and master of the household. So if he's lying there with his old man servant, who's older than him, who's got up and he's made a commitment to him. I'll take the coffee. I will get up. He's hardly going to lie there. Even in January when it's really cold, he's not going to lie there and say, oh, but it's really cold. Can I just have five more minutes? Yeah.

There's no snooze button. Right?

Right. I mean, he's going to. How much face is he going to lose if he does that? So he sees the old guy's face with a coffee and he's immediately. It's like a jumpstart in my imagination. This is how I'm imagining the scene. Yeah. In character right away. And he's got to be look strong and get up and have the coffee and whatever, and keep his commitment. So I think very often, you know, so he's. Yes, he's disciplined, but he also realizes that he's proud, and he's using that commitment to put himself on the line. The same way we do each time we say to a client, I will do this by this date. Now, if you're a committed professional, you're going to move heaven and earth to make sure you do what you said you would do. The last thing you want to do is let somebody down because you lose so much professional credibility. There's so much on the line with that. So I think it's really, for me, Trollope was successful partly because he covered all of those bases. He was doing something he loved. He'd worked out how that would lead to reward. He was aligned with his own values and what he wanted to do. But he also set up the social system that would reinforce that and actually get him out of bed at the critical moment.

Wow. What I've been seeing in my own work is that many times, I know, notice some of these factors at play, but not necessarily in a planned way. So, for instance, I choose the work that I take on because it's rewarding to me.

Yeah.

I also try to make sure there's a practical side of all this. Right. Is it going to be lucrative enough to put food on the table?

Yeah.

Is it something that's. Is it important to me? You know, is it aligned with my values? And then there's the. The deadlines. Right. So that's the social aspect of it. So. But. But they. I. I'm not doing them in a deliberate way, and I'm not sure there's a framework. Can you speak a little bit to, you know, how can you create a system? How can you structure your days, your weeks so that you have these factors at play when they're most needed to keep you moving in the right direction?

Sure. So I think, you know, the pinwheel is a really nice way of drawing all of this together. So you imagine you've got four blades of the pinwheel. This is, you know, the intrinsic, the extrinsic, the social, and the personal. And maybe take some time out Sunday afternoon or go for a walk or get a pen and paper and just think, well, how full is each of those categories in my working life at the moment? How much am I enjoying the work intrinsic? How much passion do I have for the projects? Do I need to up that and find something more inspiring to work on? On the extrinsic? Have a Look at the money, have a look at the professional reputation. Maybe you're in a sphere like if you were a novelist or social media is critical to your success, then you've got to have a certain amount of fame in there as well. Being known to the right people. Am I generating enough profile? Am I generating enough rewards? Am I generating enough opportunities from what I do? And if not, do I need to be bolder or more strategic in that area? Then you can go around to the personal stuff, which is really about finding out about your own values. You know, what is it that motivates me as an individual? What would people say I, you know, maybe ask your partner, friends, family, people like that. What is it that I prioritize over other things? You know, what would I always do and what would I never do? And am I aligned with that? Do I feel that there's any kind of internal conflict? Is there anything that I do where I feel it's not really me? Because long term, sometimes we can't be prima donnas. But long term, if there is that kind of fundamental conflict, it's going to be a drag on your work, a drag on your business. And then last but not least, think about the social aspect. Who is in my life, who's in, particularly in my working life, and are they supporting me or are they holding me back? Think about the kind of clients you work with, the kind of collaborators that you have, people that maybe you employ or contractors that you hire, business partners. And if you're doing anything with a wider audience, thinking, am I attracting the right audience and how can I serve these people better? It's not just about deadlines and following through on what you said. I think service is a huge motivation for a lot of people. So I would say start off by taking some time out to look at that big picture. And then depending on the answers in each of the categories you'll have, there'll be specific actions that you can take. If there's not enough passion or not enough time to really get in the zone, you might look at the kind of work you take on or the way you manage your time so that you can have some real focus, time where you're tuning out distractions. If it's more about the money and opportunity, maybe you need to be a bit bolder, more strategic about that and so on. So I'd really say start with that audit, the motivational audit.

I like that because it's a good compass to kind of steer you in the right direction. A couple of examples come to mind. One is when I work with a writer who really wants to work for, let's say, nonprofits, but at the same time they have this other need that's financial, and they're having a lot of trouble meeting their financial needs. Working for not, you know, in this example, what I try to get them to think about is, okay, well, you're looking at it one dimensionally, right. What ways can you continue to work with these types of organizations and make an impact in meet your financial needs? Can you work with organizations, for instance, that work with nonprofits? You know, and maybe your background here could be of great value and service and, you know, could you work for other elements of the nonprofit sector that are for profit? You know, maybe B corporations or other companies where making a positive impact in the world is one of the top core values, if not their top core values. Right. So I think this is where it gets fun because you think about the problem in a very different way. It's not black or white. There are many different shades here that you can work with.

With. It seems like that's a really nice example because you've got them all mixed up together, haven't you? You've got the money, you've got the sense of purpose, the idealism, the contribution, the social aspect. And very often these are the things it's easy to overlook. And there's always room for looking at strategic and tactical stuff from a business point of view. But very often, you know, I see this every day. I'm sure you do too, Ed. Very often the issue isn't so much out there. It's in here. It's in our think, the way that's aligned with our values, our passions, our desires, our needs, and a bit of time to really reflect on that. And I love the example that you give that, you know, it doesn't have to be doing this or that. You know, there's lots of other ways you could come at that and still fulfill that sense of purpose, which is sounds like is really important for that individual.

Yeah. And that's what I try to do. And it's easier for me to see it when it's somebody else. Right. I mean, it's very hard.

It's easy to see other people's.

But it's the question. Even when it's just me and I don't have really anyone to talk to about this, I just try to. And it works really well. If I'm journaling, okay, how else could I. How could I look at this differently? You know, And I just get really Creative. And of course, most of the ideas that come out of it are really bad. But very often there's a nugget in there that's worth working with because these, these are not easy decisions. And you know, another, another one that I hear a lot is the, oh, but I'm a journalist. I will not write commercial content. You know, and it's that sort of thing. And sometimes it's, well, okay, I'll do it, but I don't want people to know that I'm doing it. So that's the social aspect of it. So it's interesting. I'm glad you've laid this out because it really does give you kind of a framework from which to start and make decisions.

Right? I mean, I could say to that journalist, look, listen, I'm a poet and I've written a lot of commercial content that is not mutually exclusive. So poetry is my art form and I pursue that for certain reasons that there's obviously highly intrinsically motivated for that. But it doesn't stop me doing commercial work in other spheres of my work and my business. And in fact, that could support the time that I devote to writing poetry. So I think with everything, you can have different motivations for different activities. It's not to say that one type of writing or creating is going to hit all the different, you know, all the different motivations in the same way. So you may well have two or more different activities. What I call symbiotic creativity as a kind of creative career model where you, you know, say you might be, for instance, I don't know, university professor and you, you know, Seth, who focus on literature and then you write fiction. Well, the two complement each other, but it's not quite the same thing. Or you might be a copywriter who plays in the band at the weekend and you get a different kind of satisfaction and motivation from each one. But, you know, and logically, the band might not offer a lot to the bottom line, but it energizes you, it gives you that creative spark and it will probably filter through into the copy that you write. Very often I find clients who have got fine arts backgrounds or fine arts disciplines is not necessarily where they earn all their money, but it's actually really important to their business that they pursue this because without doing that, then they're not firing on all cylinders personally, and they're not bringing the level of energy and enthusiasm and creativity that they could be bringing to their other work. So, you know, it's really about looking at the big picture of your life. And your career and seeing what's the right balance for you.

I love that because you're right. It doesn't have to come from the same role or from the same line of work. You could be doing something different on the side to fulfill that other creative need. And I do see, because I've done this before, it does benefit all other aspects of my life.

Yeah, I mean, it's like so in my life, if I've spent the morning working on a poem and that may be going well, or it may not be going so well, but by the time it gets to lunchtime, I'm ready to talk to somebody. I really am. And so, you know the idea of. And I'm lucky because I get to work with clients in lots of different creative industries, some very commercial, some very much more artistic. So it's such a refreshing change to speak to someone about, I don't know, strategic marketing after I've been wrestling with a sonnet in the morning. But it's kind of like a palate cleanser. And it goes the other way because if I were just doing, say back to back client sessions and in a more commercial space all the time, then I would miss having the other side. So I think the two can actually act as a great break from each other. If the poem's not going very well, then it's great to go and spend time with the client. After I've done that for a while or after I've been writing something, say for my blog that's more commercially oriented. It's so nice to just go into a space where I can do whatever I like.

So let's talk a little bit about the practical day to day or hour by hour ideas. And I know there are many different things you talk about, but could you share maybe two or three very practical ideas to help people who are. And we're all here all the time where you have a deadline and it's in two days and you have to get going and you can't wait for inspiration to strike. I mean, you, you have to move. So the motivation in that case is that deadline, which you might look at as a very negative motivation. But what do you do there? What do you advise people when they're in that situation?

Well, obviously it depends on the individual because people respond different ways to pressure. But one thing I will do is there are some people who they think they need to know more, they need to research more, they need to plan more. And at a certain point I'll say, listen, I'm going to Bet that you already know enough to write this article or this report or this post or this sales page or whatever it is. So I'm going to challenge you to write only according to what you've got in your mind and forget all about the outcome. Apart from obviously, if it's commercially driven piece, you've got to focus on the consumer outcome. But that's not the same as your outcome. Imagine you've got a magic circle around your desk and nothing else gets in there. But you're not allowed to leave the circle. You know, you say, give yourself two hours and you can write, you can't surf, you can't do more research because you don't need to do that and just see what you can come up with. And nine times out of 10, they come up with something that if it's not finished, they've at least broken the back of it. You know, even if it's just, well, this is what's in paragraph one, and this is what's in paragraph two and paragraph three. Then they've kind of laid it out. So I think there's a great. You know, deadlines can accentuate this. But the basic lesson here is just have that magic circle. Have it as a space where you just focus on the work itself and really play full out within that. And then put a limit on it at the end and you can come out of it so you don't have to be in there wallowing till three in the morning with it. That's one way you can go. Another way is just simply recognizing that in Steven Pressfield's language, a lot of the ways we procrastinate and get stuck, it's just resistance. It's just that internal force that is, whenever we set ourselves a big challenge, as Pressfield says in his book the War of Art, then it's the invisible force that rises up within us to stop us or to persuade us that we don't really want to do it, or not today, maybe tomorrow. And very often just recognizing that, thinking, okay, this is resistance, but I need to sit down and write. Even though, even though I don't feel like it, even though I feel stressed by the deadline, even though is a great phrase to have handy.

That is brilliant because I just experienced it this morning. I'm working on a series of lessons and I've been putting it off.

For.

A couple of reasons. I didn't feel like I had all the information right now. And the other reason, I think it's very common. I just wasn't in the mood to work on that, but I'm not looking at a very tight deadline. But I know that if I don't get started now, it's going to be painful later. So I just. The other thing, I just didn't feel like I had enough time this morning. I really, I was waiting for that really big block of time, Right. That we always think will magically appear so I could give it a whole morning. And it just hasn't happened for a number of reasons. So I just said, you know what, forget it. I have an hour. Let me see what I can do. And I set a timer and I worked very focused for an hour. The first five minutes were painful. And then the outline started kind of coming together and before I knew it, I'm actually shocked. So I'm about 90% of the way through a very detailed outline and I thought that would take me a lot longer. So just telling myself to move.

It's amazing what you know that you haven't really acknowledged when, you know, when the guns to your head. And just like this, very often it's the first five minutes that's the hardest. If you can just get through that, then you probably start, hey, this is why I do in the first place.

Yeah, you're right. It's always those first five, seven minutes. So as we kind of start wrapping things up just to kind of continue the conversation, kind of the practical tips and ideas. You talk a lot about using rewards, but using them effectively. Can you share some ideas on how you can use rewards in this process and using them the right way so that they don't backfire?

Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, we've talked quite a lot about focusing on the work in the moment, which is absolutely true. But you do need to think about rewards. And for me, the most important times to think about this are at the beginning or before you begin and afterwards. This applies to a project. I guess it applies to a whole business as well. If you're going to start a new venture or if you're considering a job offer or whatever. Imagine you've got two buckets. One is the intrinsic, the stuff that you're going to really enjoy and see what's in that, see how much passion you're going to have for the project, how easy it will be, what there will be for you once you push through that initial resistance. But also have a look in the other bucket and this is what's in it for me. You know, is there money, is there opportunity? Is it going to enhance my reputation, build my profile, etcetera Etc. And really take a good look in that bucket and say, is that enough? Do I feel excited by that? Do I feel well rewarded? And if not, then you're either in a position of saying, well, and you're going to say no to the opportunity, or you might want to go and renegotiate and say, no, I'm not prepared to do it on these terms. Now what this means is obviously for the business, it means that you're not going to wasting your time, to put it bluntly. You're investing it in projects and commissions in work that is going to pay off for you. I'm sure we don't need to labor the point why that's important, but also at the end of the project, sorry, not only that, but once you sign off, once you commit and say, okay, I'm going to do this, I'm happy with that reward. You do not want that to be interfering with your thinking. You don't want to be going into a project thinking being nickel and dimed here. That's not really, it's not really worth my. Because that's when you don't do your best work, when you're not 100% committed and focused. So you really, when you give yourself the green light, you want to then be able to just dive in and forget all about the rewards because you're happy with what you're getting. And then that means you go in, you do, you play full out, you do the best work you can, your client is delighted or your audience is delighted, or you know, your eventual readers are delighted if it's a self starting project. And then afterwards you go back and you review, did I get what I wanted from it? Did I get paid? Did I get paid on time? Did I feel it was adequate value? Did the promised opportunities materialize? Is it helping to raise my profile? Really take time to review that? I guess the bottom line there is, is this the kind of thing I want to do again? So you're going from strategy to implementation, back to strategy again. I think that's a really nice way to balance the rewards as well as the joy and the pleasure of the work itself.

So yeah, doing that postmortem, which I don't do, and making sure to note how you feel now that you've gone through it so you can make adjustments for the next time if needed.

Right? Because if you haven't done that and you've just got a vague sense of dissatisfaction, there'll be something about that. But then, and you've not really Processed that then you could end up committing to more of the same down the line. And obviously over time, your motivation is getting eroded. The value that you're creating is being eroded. So I think it's really important to just keep checking in. It's a real art in the moment, you've got to be totally lost in the work. But before you plunge in, you've got to really decide that it's going to be worth your while.

Yeah, yeah, that's so important. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted doing work that I just told myself, well, it is what it is. And I never took the time to figure out, well, wait a minute, why is this still a problem? Why do I still resist?

You and me both. And then eventually something will go seriously wrong. You look back and you go, actually that didn't feel right from the beginning. If I'd really taken time to check in. Very often it's that gut feeling that we ignore because we're thinking, hey, it's another gig, it's another job, or we're focused on stuff that actually isn't really going to be what we really value.

So true.

So self awareness, it's something that we can all get better at, is the more aware we become of ourselves, our motivations, then the more we can and the more we can create.

Well, this is wonderful, Mark. I really appreciate you sharing these ideas with us and I want you to tell us a little bit about your book. So I've spent the last couple of days going through it. It's fantastic. Why don't you just give us kind of a quick synopsis of what it's about in who you wrote it for?

Sure. So the book's called Motivation for Creative People and the subtitle is how to Stay Creative while Gaining Money, Fame and Reputation. And to me, that stay is critical. How to stay creative. Because there's a load of books telling us how to be creative. But you know, I wrote this book for people who are creative professionals. That means that it's either it's their business, it's their career, or they're doing artistic work at a professional level. And so I'm assuming that you already are creative, you know how to do that to a degree. And your challenge is right back to what we started. It is, you want the money, you want the fame, you want the reputation, and yet these things are proven creativity killer. So how are you going to deal with that in your career? How are you going to stay motivated, stay creative and find a way to get the rewards without it in a way that supports your creativity. And on the other axis, how do you stay aligned with your own personal values? How do you attract and stay in touch with the right kind of people who are going to support your work? In the book, it's quite simple. In the structure. I just go through the four motivations in turn. I look at what they are, how they work, and then there's practical suggestions for action, for boosting each of them. And then the final section of the book is about putting it all together, Putting in this. Getting the pinwheel to spin so that the colors blend together. And I look at different types of creative career model here. So I've talked about one which is symbiotic creativity, where you have two different creative disciplines, one maybe more commercial, the other one more artistic, that they can support each other. Commercial creativity is one that maybe a lot of your listeners will relate to. This is where you're doing creative work that is primarily there to solve a business problem, like copywriting or web design or industrial design or something. There's a practical value to a practical outcome. It helps people achieve, but at the same time, it does that through creativity. So you've got a balance between those two built into that. Another model I know that you, Ed, will endorse as you experience it, is creative entrepreneurship, Using your creativity to actually grow the fabric of your business, not just the work that you do within the business.

That one resonated with me very much because that's exactly how I feel. And you finally put a name to that category.

Yeah. And in this section of the book, I've got interviews with different people who are exemplars of that. So that's kind of fun, interviewing these people. And they hadn't read the book. And I was saying, but what motivates you in this sphere and that sphere? And it was really interesting to see how some of the themes of the book came out with these different people. And I've got a novelist, two novelists, I think, a rock star, a. An artist, a copywriter, James Chartrand, some of your listeners may well be familiar with. Really interesting. Just there, just seeing how this plays out in different people's lives and different creative roles.

Yeah. In fact, James was just on the podcast, so. Yeah, it's interesting.

She's great.

She's fantastic. She's fantastic. Guys, I got to tell you, this is an excellent book. It's an easy read. I love the way you structured it, Mark. Very easy to read through it. Lots of bullet points, lots of actionable advice. But then you have the big picture stuff too and you keep going back and forth between the two, which is really the way to do a book like this. So I recommend it highly to to anyone who really listens to the show. If you're a creative professional, this is something you will have to deal with some way and Mark gives you a great framework to do that right and to do it well. Mark, where can people learn more about the book? Where can they grab a copy?

If you go to lateralaction.com motivation that has got links to all the places where you can buy it, so obviously Amazon, Apple, itunes, Kobo and so on. And it's available in print or ebook form. So pretty well whatever format you like to read in, you'll be able to get it from there.

Excellent. We'll make sure to include that link in the show notes. And again Mark, thanks for coming on man. It's always a real pleasure to talking to you.

Likewise lad. I always enjoy our conversations. It's nice when we can record them too. So thank you very much. Hope people have found it helpful.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Mark McGinnis. And before I sign off, I wanted to remind you that you can grab the detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 97 and that's it for today folks. Again, my name is is Ed Gandia. Thank you for listening today and I hope you have an awesome day. Take care.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.