#105: Kate Kordsmeier on the High-Income Opportunity in Food & Travel Writing

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Thank you for joining me for episode 105 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level while or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find the detailed show notes for this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 105. You know, I always assumed that food and travel writing didn't pay well. It just, to me it seemed crowded with writers and then as media companies started to fold and have continued to fold, this category of writing just felt like a starving artist. Worst nightmare, no pun intended there. But I recently met someone who challenged these assumptions and I'm glad she did. Her name is Kate Cordmeier and she's my guest in this week's show. And in this interview, Kate is going to explain why there's a still a very good income opportunity in food and travel writing. She's going to tell you how she got her start, how she climbed her way up, where the best opportunities are, what the pay is like and what to do if you want to earn a good living and enjoy your work. Kate's work has been featured in USA Today, Squire Magazine, the Washington Post, Fitness magazine, Cooking Light, Fox News, Jezebel, I mean, you name it, it's a very, very impressive portfolio. And so she's been at this for a while. She knows what she's talking about and this is a very interesting conversation. So here it is, my interview with Kate Kordsmeier. Kate, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.

Thanks for having me.

I'm excited, I am very excited to talk to you about this topic because I love everything food and wine related. So we're going to get to chat a little bit more about that and about what it's like to, to, to write in this arena. But before we, we get to the questions, tell us a bit. The kind of work you do, the kind of clients that you work with, the kind of projects, just kind of a quick summary.

Yeah, I always honestly have a little bit of a hard time answering this question because I think when you are an entrepreneur or self employed freelance, it really varies so much and I'm constantly doing different things and trying out different projects and different types of work. So I guess the, the canned response is that I'm a freelance food and travel writer. And that means mostly that I write for magazines and newspapers and websites on food and travel topics. But I also develop recipes for publications. I've hosted some food and travel shows and so I've done some on camera stuff. I'm working on a podcast myself right now. I've written some books, so it's kind of all over the board.

So it gets really interesting when people DC their eyes glaze over when you give them all the detail.

Yeah, that's what normally I just say I'm a freelance writer and if they want to ask more questions than they do, and if they don't, then I don't have to watch them glaze over. And most people are usually like, what does that mean? Or what is that? And you'll start answering a few questions. And then when people hear so you get paid to eat and travel the world, then they. Then they're not so glazed over they think, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, that is pretty exciting. So you don't write about boring stuff like many of us do, which is awesome.

Well, sometimes, but for the most part it's all pretty exciting stuff.

Why don't you give us an overview of what this is all about then, since that's kind of the next natural question. Right. So food and travel writing, what's involved? Maybe give us some examples of the different project categories and what they're about.

Yeah, so I would say for the most part I would call what I do editorial journalism. So I write for consumer magazines, newspapers, websites, like I mentioned before. So it's just telling a lot of different stories. I'm not a restaurant critic. That's the biggest misconception. I don't write reviews, so I just do kind of news profiles, trends, recipes, that kind of thing in the food and travel space.

So the clients, newspapers, magazines, any other kind of big categories.

Books, I guess I've done two books in the last couple of years. And within the publishers, I guess there's the traditional consumer publications like the ones you see in on the newsstand at Barnes and Noble or the grocery store. But then there's also a lot of trade and custom publishers. So it's not quite copywriting, but it's a little different than like straight editorial. And those are more the kinds of magazines that you might get. Like if you're a Costco member, Costco has a magazine. Or if you are flying Delta, you know, Delta's in flight magazine. So they're all kind of within the same realm. And I would say they're all mostly editorial still, but there's a couple different categories within that.

And so I'm assuming most of them are articles then.

Yes.

Okay. And what's, what's the range typically for an article in food and travel? Price range lengthwise?

Oh, I'm sorry. You know, it really, it really depends. They're called front of book and features are pretty much the two categories. So front of book is all of the quick, short pieces you usually see in the front of magazine. And I've done hundreds and hundreds of those. It's a great place to start when you're first breaking into this field. And it's a great place to stay too. Sometimes I think, oh, I don't really do as many features as I would think that I would be doing at this point. Because these quick front of book pieces that are, I would say somewhere between 200 and 1,000 words, it varies. And then feature stories usually start being more like 1500 to, I don't know, 3 or 4000. I mean, and that's getting like really lengthy. There's very few print publications that give that kind of space to a story anymore.

Yeah, I know. Things have changed over the past 10 years or so, haven't they? And I'm sure this industry has been impacted as well.

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely changed a lot. But I think, I still think magazines are here to stay. I hope so.

Before we get into some more of the detail, I'm curious how you got into this. So is this something you chose? Did you kind of fall into this industry? How did that happen?

Yeah, it was very intentional and I set out very purposefully to become a full time freelancer, food and travel writer. I went to journalism school and I interned with several magazines and then also with a freelance writer. She kind of like opened my eyes that, oh, this is a real thing. This is a job. You don't have to be on staff somewhere. And I did work as a copywriter full time for about six months right out of school before I realized that that was not the career for me. And so I started pursuing full time freelance then and have been doing it ever since. That was about seven years ago, I think.

Okay. Oh, excellent. Okay. So I'm curious then, now that you've been at it for a while, what kind of writer would you say is best suited for this kind of work? Because I'm assuming that, you know, people have this perception out there that this is all about traveling and going to all these restaurants and, you know, having a great time. But it's not all glamour, right?

Right. Very little of it is glamorous actually.

But I figured, right, this is all.

You become jaded very quickly. Maybe that's the better way to phrase it. Some of it's still glamorous, but it's not as exciting eight years in.

I think that's the case with, with anything. But if somebody is out there listening to this and going, wow, this sounds really exciting. How do you know if you are well suited for this particular industry, this particular type of writing?

Yeah, well, I definitely think that freelance is, you know, you have to have a certain personality type to be successful in it. You know, I think you have to be very self motivated and disciplined and driven on your own. And not just because you have a boss breathing down your neck or in the next room or behind your cubicle who can see what you're doing. I think you have to be very self disciplined. But more than that, I think you have to have really thick skin. Rejection and sometimes more than rejection, just silence. Not hearing back is a big part of the job. And if you take it too personally or get too down on yourself, if your pitches aren't being accepted and that kind of thing, I think it'll be a really difficult career for anybody like that. So I'd say have thick skin. And I remember when I first started out, I was getting kind of depressed about things, just being rejected a lot or not hearing back. And I remember my dad sent me an email that said the definition of sales is no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no times a million. And then yes. And freelancing in this realm is definitely selling yourself. You're always pitching ideas, pitching your skills, your services. So gotta be willing to promote yourself.

And I'm curious about the perks, right. Is it what I'm thinking, right, where you get to have all kinds of free meals and free, all expenses paid trips? What part of that is true? What part of it is inaccurate?

Yeah, I mean the perks are real. I have had a lot of free meals and trips and gone. You know, I've done a lot of things that I never would have been able to afford on my own. And it's definitely a huge perk. But like I said, I really think it's important to not get caught up in the glamor of it. There's an opportunity cost of being out of the office, not to mention a cost to your waistline and health for eating out that much and traveling that often. But I always think you can't pay your mortgage with A free meal or a free vacation. So even though those things can be wonderful, you really need to make sure you can actually earn money from whatever it is you're doing. So if I take a trip somewhere, I try to sell at least three stories out of every trip that I take. And, and I would only say yes to a trip if I knew it was something that I thought I could actually write about. Not just because it's like, oh, I'd love to go there, but I don't really see myself writing about it or that kind of thing. I think it's really important to just always be professional and keep your business and income top of mind and never to be entitled. Like, you don't just deserve these things because you're a journalist. So kind of keeping that level of professionalism and always tipping, you know, it's never 100% free because I think you should always leave a gratuity for a meal or when you're on a trip to your guide or whoever it is. So I think that's important too.

Great point, great point. So in terms of landing work, I think this is based on what you just said. I'm curious how much of your work is typically people coming to you, right? Past clients, prospects who've never worked with you versus you going out and pitching article ideas.

Yeah, it's crazy because I think it's changed over the years. When I first started, I definitely was pitching and finding work myself almost 100% of the time. And then slowly my name started getting out there. More and more people started coming to me. I sort of established myself as an expert in certain topics. And so now I feel like I don't pitch nearly as much as I used to. But I really think overall, not even half my job as a writer is actually writing. It's like running my business, managing my books, promoting my services, pitching editors, researching potential story ideas. There's a lot of backend, behind the scenes stuff that goes on that's, you know, not just. I'm not just sitting at my desk writing all day, every day.

Yeah, yeah. And that's the part a lot of people forget. Right. It's. You still gotta run a business and it's just you. So you gotta wear those.

Right, right, exactly.

Now, in terms of, I guess if you look back at the last, I don't know, let's say 10 projects, if you were to guess how many of those came to you from people you already know and who know you, you've done work with before, and how many of those did you pitch again? Just a rough guess.

Hmm. The last this year, it's kind of been a weird year because a lot more has just come to me, or I've gotten some regular gigs where I'm not having to pitch every month. I just have these recurring assignments. But I would say, I don't know, maybe 50. 50.

Okay. Yeah. When you're going out there and pitching some people, and I'm curious, I mean, so when you pitch, what does that involve? What do you typically have to do? What's the best approach?

Yeah, so there's two different ways I approach it. If it's a consumer magazine, I'm sending a specific story idea to an editor. So I'm not writing the story in advance. I'm just sending, like, a paragraph or two that says, he, I'm Kate. This is what I do. Here's an idea for your magazine, here's why I'm uniquely qualified to write it, and then that's it. And then it's just a waiting game at that point. But there's also, and I think this is probably what a lot of your other guests use is the letters of introduction, where. For trade publications or custom publishers that are companies who produce a magazine, a lot of times they develop story ideas in house and then are looking for writers to take on those projects. So I'll send out letters of introduction to those types of editors and companies, just kind of saying, hey, I exist. I'm here. This is the stuff I cover and what I'm good at, and let me know if I can help you.

And what have you found in terms of success rate? Obviously, you're established now, so you have that credibility. But when you look at both letters of introduction and then pitching, and you're pitching and you're being very, very specific, right? You take the time to really research the publication, make sure you're on target. But I mean, are we talking about if you were to guess, you know, 20% success rate, or is it just way below that? Where does it typically fall?

Yeah, I think it's probably way below that. It's probably a really depressing low percentage. I think at one point, I think I was, like, averaging, like, 5% success rate or something. And I'm sure that went up and changed the longer I was doing it and the more relationships I established. But the hard thing about editorial is that magazine editors move around a lot. So sometimes you get in this great relationship with an editor and you're doing tons of stuff for them, and then they leave, and then the New editor that comes in has their own people or they don't like your column anymore or something like that changes. So you can never really get too comfortable. But I think the success rate is really low. And I just remember somebody told me early on this quote from Michael Jordan about how he missed more than 9,000 shots in his career. And there was some. His success rate of like the shots he took and which ones he made was like 2%. So then I was like, oh, that makes me feel a little better.

Oh, yeah, no kidding. And in baseball, right, if you're batting, you know, 300 or up, there's a good chance that you're going to be, you know, a top player. I mean, yeah, you know, if you, if you, throughout your career bat over.300 consistently, you're going to end up in the hall of Fame, right?

Yeah. So maybe I'm in the Writer's hall of Fame.

There you go, There you go. All right. Bad over. 300 consistently, you're going to end up in the hall of Fame. So let's, let's talk a little bit about the projects in the pay because I want to kind of get a sense for what these projects tend to pay. The reason I ask, Kate, is I get the impression that this is a relatively low paying market now. Maybe way off, right?

Yeah. So maybe I'm in the Writer's hall of Fame.

There you go. There you go. All right. But I'm curious if that's true and if not, what types of clients and projects offer the best pay? So is there a strategy? Are you going about this in a certain way where you're actually able to make a good living? And it sounds like you are.

Well, I think it's all relative. A good living is very subjective and depends on where you live and that kind of thing. But I actually looked back before we spoke over the last five years, what my average project rate was and my average hourly rate. The project rate was about $1,000 and my hourly rate is about $155 an hour.

Wow, that's really good.

Yeah. So I think it pays more than people expect if you do it right. And I'm usually working on six to 12 different projects at a time. So you can definitely make six figures doing freelance writing in this field.

So are there any. You said do it right. So if you were to think of what are some of the things that you have figured out that you have to do in order to keep your internal hourly rate there or get those kind of fees, can you narrow it down Maybe a few things that are absolutely key.

I mean, I think the first one is kind of just the overarching theme of, like, you have to treat it like a business. It's not a hobby. It's not something you're just doing for fun or for the exposure. You know, it's what you're doing so that you can pay your bills. So I think, you know, then there's kind of lots of smaller tips that go within that. But I think always remembering that it's a business is the first thing to do and then just being really strategic about who you write for and how you spend your time. I am like a compulsive spreadsheet nerd, and I track everything. And so I have all different kinds of spreadsheets tracking how many hours I worked. And even like, I do this thing, it's so cheesy. But it's called a client report card. And every year I write down who do I write for, and I rate them on this weighted scale, scale of how well did they pay, Did I like the editor, did it boost my resume and things like that, and then kind of give everybody a score. And then if you're not over a certain number, it's like you're chopped. Then I'm not writing for you anymore. So I think always analyzing what's working and what isn't and saying no sometimes and using that time that you would have spent writing for a poor paying client or something that wasn't enjoyable to find a better paying or a better market in general.

That is brilliant. I never heard of a client report card. I love the way you do that.

I can't take 100% credit for it. I think I actually got the idea from a book. I read all kinds of freelance books when I was starting out, and I feel like it probably came from one of those. But it's been really helpful to me over the years. Sometimes you think you have this idea in your mind of, oh, this is a great client. And sometimes when you actually go and analyze it and see the facts like, oh, they're actually a horrible client. I don't know why I had this in my mind or the other way around.

It's really helpful now that you've been at it for, I think you said seven years or so, right?

Well, yeah, full time since 2010. And I freelanced before I went full time for a couple years.

So it's been. It's been a while. And that you. Have you found your sweet spot? And if so, you know, what does that comprise of what, what. What's in that sweet spot that, you know, hey, if I, you know, if I keep doing this or I do more of this. This is, this is high margin stuff.

That's a good question. I. I don't know, I feel like maybe I found my sweet spot just in specializing in food the way that I have. And I really focus on food as a cultural experience. So I write a lot about ethnic food, for lack of a better word, or a lot of my travel writing is about what people eat in other countries and where you should eat if you're visiting those places or understanding their customs and that kind of thing. So I guess I would say my sweet spot is kind of becoming an expert in that. And now I get a lot of work that just comes to me from people who are looking for that type of person.

I like that. That's really cool. And letters of introduction. Do you mention that, by the way? Do you mention that as a differentiator?

No, but I should.

That's brilliant. Just figuring out what you enjoy, what you figure you do well. And I'm sure you do several things well, but it's. It sounds like this is something that, that you really enjoy and it's that. That theme that keeps recurring. So I'm curious because I know you've done some other things right. You've branched out a little bit. I think you said you've written a cookbook or some cookbooks. Tell me about the opportunities to kind of branch out.

Yeah, well, a lot of the book projects that I've worked on or two. I've only done two, but both of them came to me, actually. And again, it was kind of that, like, develop, set yourself up as this expert. And I highly recommend all writers have a website where they showcase their clips and kind of have an about page. Because I get so much work from people who. The book I wrote last year is called Atlanta Chef's Table. They were just looking for an Atlanta food writer. So what do they Google? Atlanta Food Writer. And I'm one of the first results that comes up. And that's how I got the gig. Highly recommend doing that. And then in terms of kind of branching out to do your own stuff, that's a big part of what I'm doing right now, actually, is I recently started a blog for the first time, which I never thought I would do. I feel like I've always tried to say I'm a real journalist and not a blogger and set myself apart from that. And I finally just decided I needed to embrace it. So I started a blog called Root and Rebel. And kind of for this reason I wanted to do my own thing where I could have more control over the content and write about the stories that I felt like were important and not be beholden to advertisers or other editors opinions and that kind of thing. And also to do more first person stuff. A lot of what I do is just kind of this third person omniscient, very objective. If not, I mean, it's a little positive, I guess, but you know, it's usually recommendations of stuff. But I like being able to tell more of a narrative story and connecting with readers on that level. And then also I think there's probably a greater earning potential along with passive income if you're able to monetize it well, you know, versus freelance. It's just you get paid once for the one project and then that's it. So I like the idea of like being able to earn more over time.

I think that's. That's brilliant. And I don't know if you've seen other results from it in terms of the exposure and then helping you land additional clients, but I would think that just putting yourself out there like that can only help. Even though you're not doing it for that reason specifically, but can only help you maybe land some of these writing gigs.

Yeah, yeah, I hope so. I mean, I think it never hurts to have more clips and more types of work and. Yeah, so hopefully it will. I mean, the Root and Revel is very different from the type of work I normally do because I'm mostly covering restaurants and sh.

You're not doing it for that reason specifically, but can only help you maybe.

Chefs and winemakers and hotels and that kind of thing. And I didn't want Root and Revel.

Land some of these writing gigs.

Yeah, yeah, I hope so. I mean, I think it never hurts to have more clips and more types of work and. Yeah, so hopefully it will. I mean the Root and Revel is very. To be like that. I didn't really want it to take away from what I was doing. So it's more of like a food and wellness site that kind of talks more about cooking and health and nutrition and sort of coming at it from that angle. So it's very separate, very cool.

And that way you're able to express yourself that way. Right. About things that you also are interested in.

Right, exactly. I had some health issues over the last. Different from the type of work I normally do because I'm mostly covering restaurants in a few years. And I've really solve them through the power of nutrition. So it's kind of chefs and winemakers and hotels and that kind of thing. And I didn't want Root and Revel to be like that. I didn't really want it to take away from what I was doing. So it's more of like a food and wellness site that kind of talks more about cooking, like sharing my story and what I've learned and trying to help other people in that way.

So I'm curious and I know what the answer is, but I'd like to get your take on what you feel are the opportunities for writers in this field. Somebody who's never worked as a food and travel writer. They're very.

And health and nutrition and sort of coming at it from that angle.

So it's very by it. They. They would. They're listening to you right now going, oh my gosh, that is exactly what I want to do. Is it too late? Is it too late to break into this space?

No way. It's never too late. Separate.

Very cool. And that way you're able to express yourself that way, right? Write about things that you also are interested in.

Right, Exactly. And I had some health issues over the last few years and I've really solved them through the power of nutrition. So it's kind of absolutely not. There's no prerequisite to what you had to do before this. And maybe you can even channel your previous experience to prove why you're uniquely qualified to write a story based on what you did before. Maybe you're celiac and you can pitch gluten free stories or something like that. It's like you can always harness your experience sharing my story and what I've learned and trying to help other people in that way.

So I'm curious and I know what the answer is, but I'd like to get your take on what you feel are the opportunities for writers in this field. Somebody who's never worked as a food and travel writer. They're very in somewhere. Maybe look at where you have some sort of experience or interest and use that as jumping off point.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, you can intern with freelancers or at a magazine. You know, I guess it depends on maybe your age if you're willing to do that. But I use interns all the time and I would. They're not always students and freaked by it.

They. They would. They're listening to you right now going, oh my gosh, that is exactly what I.

It's a great Way to kind of learn the business and how it, how.

It all works to do. Is it too late, you know, is it too late to break into, into this space?

No way. It's never too late. Absolutely not. There's no prerequisite to what works. And you can ask questions from somebody who knows. And if you don't want to do that, I think just study the heck out of magazines and pitch and market yourself like crazy. And it's a numbers game. So if you had to do before this and maybe you can even channel your previous experience to prove why you're uniquely qualified to write a story based on what you did before, maybe you're celiac and you can pitch gluten free stories or something like that. You can always harness your experience. If you have the right idea and you pitch it to the right editor at the right time, that's really all you need.

Tell me about interns. So how would one go about looking if that's of interest, to look for someone to kind of intern under?

Yeah, so there is a site called ed2010.com and they list a lot of somewhere.

Maybe look at where you have some sort of experience or internships.

I think those are more with magazines though. Like if you actually wanted to work for a particular publication. But for freelancers, I mean, I know I list my internship openings. I list them on my website and I also list.

And use that as jumping off point.

Yeah, definitely. I mean you can intern through like local universities, but I would say like if you're not finding any, maybe with freelancers or at a magazine, you know, I guess it depends on maybe your age if you're willing to do that. But I use interns all the time and I would. They're not always students and we just search for freelancers and you could just email them and say, hey, do you need an intern? I'd love to help and, and kind of approach it that way.

What's the format typically? So you work with a writer, maybe do some of the research, do some of the kind of initial writing and you essentially work.

It's a great way to kind of learn the business and how it all works. And you can ask questions from somebody who knows. And if you don't want to do that, I think just study the heck out of magazines and pitch and market yourself like crazy. And you know, it's a numbers game. So if you work for free in.

Order to get that education.

Yeah, I mean, I think it varies and I've tried both free or for college Credit or kind of like a stipend. That's definitely not much, but it's better than nothing, I guess. But I think I always try to meet with my interns in person or over the phone if they're not local. If you have the right idea and you pitch it to the right editor at the right time, that's really all you need.

So tell me about interns. So how would one go about looking if that's of interest, to look for someone to kind of intern under?

Yeah, so. And just have kind of these like pick your brain sessions where they can ask me a bunch of questions. And I usually I have them doing, like they'll get some bylined work with me. You know, they're helping me like sourcing photos or research. There is a site called ed2010.com and they list a lot of searching stories and definitely a lot of social media help and that kind of thing. So it's kind of, you know, it's hard to recommend. I don't really recommend people working for free, but if you have no experience in the field, I think it could be kind of internships. I think those are more with magazines though, like if you actually wanted to helpful exchange at least for a couple months to just figure things out.

Well, I like what you said earlier too, that if you have a high degree of interest in this industry, work.

For a particular publication. But for freelancers, I mean, I know I list my internship openings. I list them on my website and I also list them through like local universities. But I would say, like, if you're.

Not finding any, like, there's probably a reason for it. There's some history there. You have some sort of experience. Like in my case, I've never written about food and travel, but I have a very high interest in wine. It's something I've been studying for 20 years, very seriously, at first, before I had kids.

And these days, now you need it more than ever.

Yeah, now, exactly. Exactly. Now I don't have the time to read and taste like I did before, but I still do a lot of tasting and I've never done it professionally, but I guess that could be.

Yeah, I mean, I would pitch a wine story and say, you know, I'm a huge wine drinker. I have a cellar of 5,000 bottles or, I don't know, something that maybe like is a little more fat because there's tons of people that call themselves foodies and winos and, you know, like that without any real background in it. But call out a Couple a couple facts about your wine knowledge. And I mean, like I said, this kind of writing is really more about your idea than it is about your experience or your background. I mean, I've never once in all these years of freelancing, I've never once been asked if I went to journalism school.

But I would think though, and I agree with you, I can see that. I'm wondering though, someone in terms of.

Their confidence level, just search for freelancers and you could just email them and say, hey, do you need an intern? I'd love to help. And kind of approach it that way.

And what's the format typically? So you work with a writer, maybe do some of the research, do some of the kind of initial writing and you essentially level. Yeah, they have a lot of experience, they've been writing for a while, but let's say it's work for free in order to get that education. Yeah, I mean, I think their specialty is insurance. Right. But this is something they want to develop. This is something they want to get into. So they have the writing experience. They just don't have the clips in food and travel. But they have this high degree of. And maybe they're a home chef.

Varies. And I've tried both free or for college credit or kind of like a.

For something like that. So. Yeah, right. You just need that first couple of opportunities. Right. It seems like this is the kind of thing where you just need somebody to give you a shot and then you have something that a stipend.

That's definitely not much, but it's better than nothing, I guess. But I think I always try to meet with my interns in person or over the phone. If they're not local, you can leverage. Right. And you don't have to tell anybody that this is your first article. You know, I mean, you don't have to lie. But when you're selling yourself, position yourself how you would like to be positioned. You know, if you're passionate about wine and you have an impressive seller or you've and just have kind of these like pick your brain sessions where they can ask me a bunch of questions, you know, taking a test and you're a supertaster, I don't know, whatever it could be, then let them know that send them a really great idea that they wouldn't get otherwise, you know, something really unique. And I think a lot of times editors will take a chance on you. And I usually I have them doing like they get some bylined work with me, you know, they're helping me like sourcing photos or. And if you have a blog or you have a couple clips or something that you can send them to to just say searching stories and definitely a lot of social media help and that kind of thing. So see, here's my writing chops and prove that you can write kind of. You know, it's. It's hard to recommend. I don't really recommend people working for free, but if you have no experience in the field, I think it could be kind of a helpful exchange, at least for a couple months to just figure things out.

I like what you said earlier too, that if you have a high degree of interest in this industry, there's probably a reason for it. There's some history there, you have some.

Sort of experience, then that's really all you need.

Would you advise maybe going after some of the smaller local publications as a good starting point, just to kind of get your feet wet?

I go back and forth on this because I didn't. I mean, I interned as a student, so I did have that background and I got a couple clips from that. But my first story that I was paid for was for a national magazine and I was a college student. And, you know, I don't say it to brag.