#107: How to Handle Stressful (and Sensitive) Client Conversations With Grace

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Well, hello there. Thank you for joining me for episode 107 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. As a quick reminder, you can find detailed show notes of this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode 107. This might come as a shocker to you, but I don't enjoy having difficult conversations with clients. And I'm joking about the shocker part. Who does, right? I bet you don't either. Most people I know don't like to be confrontational and have these very difficult conversations with their prospects and clients. But just because it's not a fun pastime doesn't mean we should always avoid having these conversations. Because very often the way to solve or even avoid big problems with clients is to do what we fear most is to confront the issues head on. And to do that effectively and with confidence, you need to be prepared to handle these situations well. So in this week's show, you're going to hear from Mellie Williams. And Mellie specializes in this stuff. She specializes in writing scripts for sensitive business and personal conversations, such as delivering bad news and just basically saying no in a graceful way to a client. She's a real pro at this stuff, and I'm not surprised because of her legal background. She's very, very good at this. And in this interview, she. She shares some very practical techniques for handling these difficult situations with Grace. So I think you're really going to enjoy this. This is some very practical information that you can apply right away. Let's go right to that interview. Mellie, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you here.

Thank you so much, Ed. Thank you for agreeing to allow me to come in here and share.

Well, you have some really good things to share here, and I know this is some very useful advice and practical information that listeners can apply. So I'm anxious to hear what you have to share with us today. But before we get to all that, I always like to start by asking a guest to tell us a little bit about themselves. So what kind of work you do, what kind of clients you work for, and so forth. So let's just start there.

Well, I am a ghostwriter who specializes in scripts for initiating sensitive conversations in both Business and personal situations, communication that requires a lot of candor, for example, delivering bad news, saying no, or speaking up to clients. And I also do some work in the corporate space. Delivering face to face performance reviews is an issue, especially if they're unfavorable conversations surrounding legally mandated practices like accommodating employees with disabilities or subordinates with certain religious practices. So any nerve wracking, stressful conversation iscript what I call conversation starters to help people get through that initial stage of opening up that delicate conversation or communication. Now, prior to that, I practiced law and I presented seminars on legal topics and workplace communication topics. And while doing all of that, I slowly started a career as a freelance writer. And some of my favorite projects were writing scripts for promotional videos and radio spots. And I even did some work in entertainment. And in fact, Ed, I don't know if you remember this, but at one time I had considered writing scripts for branded entertainment projects and interviewed you for a script I was working on called the Freelancer. And that was maybe about three years ago.

Oh yeah, do you remember that? It sounds very familiar.

Yeah, you were very helpful. I sent you an email and you responded right away. And I just kind of wanted to get some insight into, you know, the head of a person who coaches freelancers and some of the problems, you know, from a different perspective than my own. And you were very helpful. So, so I started getting into this whole script thing during that time. And I had always studied screenwriting and script writing. So as I said, I had a background in that as well. But this business is sort of like a marriage of my legal background, my corporate communications seminar background, and then script writing through freelance writing background. So that's kind of how it all started.

I love it. It makes perfect sense, based on your background, to combine all those factors into, into something different. And this is very different from what I typically hear run into in terms of your, your specialty. I'm curious, when you talk to prospects about it, does it, does it resonate? Do they get it?

Well, yes. In fact, it's funny, it started with work that I was doing in the corporate seminar space. I was doing a lot of legal seminars and a lot of my seminars were focused on, you know, how to have certain conversations. Anyway, for example, I would, I taught collections law, you know, and you had, there were laws, there are laws surrounding not having a collections conversation, doing it wrong, you can get into a lot of trouble. And so there might. Seminar clients had questions about how to say things and then they would go on and say, what should I Say, you know, give us the language, the words and phrases. And so it started with that. And I would include scripting services, if you will, into the seminar that would be included in their fee. So they would actually get those services. And it was based on demand. They would ask for it. So I'd give them the theory and give them formulas and techniques. And they said, okay, you now tell us what to say. And that happened more and more. And I experienced that with colleagues who had asked me to help them and started getting some clients that would ask questions about how to, how to, you know, deal with a customer that hadn't paid in a while. How can I broach the subject with that customer? So it started with actually not nothing that in my head, I'm not, I don't know if I'm that creative. It started with actually demand from my, for my seminars. You know, it was just organic progression from there.

That's how things, that's how these things typically evolve anyway. So, yeah, I can, I can definitely see that. In fact, I would say that most of the time, when you try to create this, engineer it kind of artificially, it just doesn't work. It. This sort of thing tends to work best when it's organic. So I, I can see that. And I'm curious just because you're, you're. What you do is so different from, from what I typically see out there. What's a typical client engagement? Like, let's just take the corporate market. So do you do everything typically from kind of assessing and then writing scripts and then doing role play and some training or like, what, what, what's the typical client engagement look like?

Well, all of the above. What I usually do is find out what the goal, what is the goal? And if someone comes to me and says I need to know how to speak to this defensive employee and give them an unfavorable performance review. The first thing is, what's the goal? And the goal is always with that is to educate the employee on what they're doing wrong and get them on the right track and then maybe change their attitude. So we start with the goal, and then I ask about that person's personality. And that gives me an idea as to how well to communicate, how to communicate with them. For example, a type A personality is not going to want a lot of detail. They're going to need enough detail so that they understand the conversation. They want you to sort of get to the point. So I'll create something that will help them understand that person's personality and communication. Style. So I start with the goal, talk about personalities, get that. I then give them a list of talking points, things that I think they should cover. And then I actually go into the script. Now at the same time I'm talking to my client and I'm getting an understanding of how they, their communication, personality, the cadence in which they speak, the tone and all of that. And so I create a scripted product, as I call it, based on all of this information. Once I get deliver that to them, we go over delivery, you know, how best to deliver it under the circumstances given again, that their counterparts personality. I also help them prepare for objections because, you know, as you know, a conversation is back and forth. So you're not going to necessarily know, you're not going to know everything that they, how they're going to respond, everything that they're going to say in response. But you can kind of come up with ideas on, you know, certain objections. Particularly we're talking about sensitive, delicate conversations. So it may make someone angry. They may have something to say in response that you may not like. So I come up with a list of objections with their help and my own ideas. And then I script responses to those objections. And I actually, I got that technique as a, as an attorney. You know, you, you have someone on the stand and you're never supposed to ask a question to which you won't know the answer. And so that's how I prepared as an attorney. That's how I would prepare in my presentations, my seminar presentations. And that's. And so it was an easy, again organic, very easy segue into preparing my clients for their conversation. And you know, we did a lot, I do a lot with delivery, but most of the time, again, it's demand. People wanted to know, well, how do I say this? What do I say? What do I say? And a lot of my folks I work with know what they want to say. They just don't know how to say it. And that's kind of how it works. You know, one thing that's interesting, I work with a lot of people like myself who are very assertive. And when you're assertive, you have to be very careful with not being too blunt. You have to come off, you have to be very diplomatic, particularly if you're dealing with clients. And so a lot of the folks I work with, my clients were very afraid because they were so assertive. They were very concerned about coming off too blunt or offending someone. So because I understood that Pain was able to work with him on that because that's something that I. A situation or a problem that I faced and actually worked it out for myself by what I call writing it out. I would always. If I had a really serious conversation with someone, I would write it out first to make sure that I wouldn't come off offensive, quite frankly, because assertive people can sometimes be that way or be misunderstood that way, I should say.

Yeah, you're right. So we kind of live in our own little world and we assume that everyone's going to take it a certain way, but that's not often the case, right? Not. Not with every personality. It depends on who the other person is. So, yeah, this is fascinating. I think it's. It's brilliant that you have taken your background and your strengths and created a. A business out of this. I can tell you're very good at it. I was thinking one thing we could do is maybe we could go through a few scenarios that freelance writers and copywriters have to go through in terms of difficult conversations. And maybe you can walk us through some of these and explain what we need to take into account. Different talking points, how to prepare for objections, that. That sort of thing. How does that sound?

Sounds great. Sounds great. Well, this first one is about money. And even sort of people like me always get nervous when it comes to conversations about money. And so I have these. Have an idea, and I'm going to pose it sort of as a question. This is something that I heard from someone recently. Is it acceptable to send a gentle reminder to a client whose invoice is due to be paid today, or should I wait for them to be late, then get in touch? And this is a stressful conversation because freelancers don't want to come off as pushy. And this is also an uncommon question in that most freelancers wouldn't consider talking to a client about money until the payment is late. Right? This person is talking about, should I ask if you know the payment's due today? Should I bring it up? One thing, though, that is not uncommon about this question is that we may not ask about it on the day that it's due, but we wonder, okay, are we going to get that money today? Are we going to get it two days from now or three days from now? And so here's something that I recommended to this person who asked this question, and this is just my little mini script to them. Your payment is due today. But before you send it in, I want to know if there's anything else I can do for you. Repeat that. Your payment is due today. But before you send it in, I want to know if there's anything else I can do for you. And I recommended this because you're showing that you're interested in our satisfaction while hopefully learning where you stand with the payment. You want to know if they sent it in or if they're about to send it in. And hopefully you'll find that out. And I found that that worked for me with my own freelancing career because I, you know, when I started out as an attorney with Easter famine, I actually started that after I lost my job. So I was always, you know, waiting for that money to come in, waiting by the mailbox. And so I had to find a way to, you know, bring up that issue early on. And it really, it does work. Now, one thing that I've also recommended to clients is to ask the. If it's late, if the payment is late, you may say something like, well, you know, I understand that, you know, your payment was due last week or a month ago or however long you're willing to wait, I want to make certain that you were satisfied with your service. And then that opens up dialogue. If they had a problem with the service, you know, some clients may, you know, I'm going to put that invoice at the bottom of the pile because I wasn't really too happy with that and I'm not going to deal with it right now. And that opens up a dialogue about. So you can fix the problem. So that's the whole point, is to make certain that you are able to get that conversation out there while keeping in mind that you need to keep the client satisfied. You need to focus on the customer service aspect of it. So it's sort of a combined effort there. I've also advised small business people to use this technique in this particular mini script prior to the invoice going out. So in other words, you may say something like, I'm about to send out your invoice, or accounting is about to send out the invoice. But before I do, I want to know if you were satisfied with your product or the service, and if not, if there's anything I can do for you. So again, combining customer service with a conversation about money, you kind of know where you stand.

That makes sense. I love it too, because two things. In a way, it's kind of a pattern interrupt. Like they're not expecting that. Right. Nobody sends an email like that. And second, I love that it's phrased as a question because it just begs for a response.

Right? Exactly. And one Thing, you know, we always talk about, you hear any or read any article or any seminar or any talk on customer service, you do less talking and allow your client, your customer to customer, to do most of the talking.

Yes, I love those. Now, what. What have you found, typically, have you found a difference, especially when it's overdue? Do you. Do you find that it gets a response to at least open up that dialogue?

Yes, it does. And I've also written on behalf of clients letters that they're not quite collections letters. So a client may say, well, you know, I don't want to do a collection letter or a demand letter. So I'll use a similar. In fact, maybe the exact words in a letter going out sometimes in email. You have to be careful. As a lawyer, I'm always careful with what people say in email. Letters are more formal, but it's not about formality. It's about, again, gathering information, serving the customer and letting them know and reminding them gently that money is due or it's about to be due or hopefully slightly overdue. I never recommend this, that my clients wait for a long time, too long, to get their money. And that's where sort of the freelance writer and the collections attorney comes in sometimes. I'm offering two services to customers when it comes to this particular script.

Okay, Okay. I like it. I like it. Good stuff. I would have never thought to ask those questions or to phrase it that way. That's brilliant.

Thank you.

So let's go to another one.

Okay, so the next one. What do I say to a client who wants to change the scope of a project? And of course, this scenario is. We know why this is stressful, because with scope creep, you know, at least the way I feel, everything is unknown. That's how I see Scripp. It's unknown by definition. That challenge is something of a surprise. It literally creeps up on you. So, you know, you may be asking yourself, how much money are you giving away by just kind of letting this go. If I contain it now, will the problem just creep up again? So I recommend you give them a pat answer. And pat is my formula for initiating a stressful or sensitive conversation. So P A T pat, and the P stands for prove. And it starts by providing examples of the behavior. And let me just explain why. If you say to someone, you know you've changed the scope of the project, they're going to get defensive, particularly if you say it like that. Or they may deny it, and that can get messy. Or truthfully, they may not understand that they're doing that, they may not know it. And so it's best to demonstrate that behavior. So here's what I actually said to a client who kept changing her mind about the target market she wanted me to write for. She said. I said to her, you asked me to write this letter with the B2B market in mine only, and I made sure to include it in your contract. Yet last week you asked me to include abc, which was different from before, and that's me saying that in parens in your email, you expressed to me concern over this. And just today I received an email from your head of marketing who wondered why this was happening. And I gave what I try to do in that example, what I recommend to people is to when you're trying to demonstrate that someone has exhibited certain behavior, at least give three demonstrations of that behavior, three examples of that behavior. Again, you want them to not be in denial, and you want them to remind those who literally forgot or demonstrate to others what they're doing when they don't know that they're doing that. So that's a great way of doing that. And you have to. You got to practice the cadence and the way, you know, the tone and all that. And that's what I, you know, help people with. So that's p. Prove that their behavior is portrayed in this way. And then a in pat A stands for appreciate. So you want to show that you appreciate their position whether or not you agree with a statement that gives them the benefit of the doubt. So, for example, in this example, I think I said something like, clients change their minds all the time, especially when a new creative idea hits them. Again, clients change their minds all the time, especially when a new creative idea hits them. And maybe clients don't change their mind all the time. Some people would say, I don't change my mind all the time. I know exactly where I'm going. I'm pretty decisive. But again, it's a statement that gives them the benefit of the doubt. It makes them feel better about what you're about to say next. And it should be truthful. You should make something up. It definitely should be truthful. So you may have to do some thinking. There's now, the T in the pat answer is tell, and you're actually going to convey your message with candor and diplomacy. And I have to be. I have to always remind people that I put the T as intel because sometimes people don't actually say anything. They'll kind of trail off after giving that, you know, benefit of the doubt statement. And hope that the customer will, you know, finish their sentence or actually get it and understand and come to this epiphany and everything will be fine. But I recommend that you actually tell them, explain to them what you want. And again, candor and diplomacy. So one of the things, one of the examples or mini scripts that I've used under these circumstances is I'd say something like, what I like to do first is get the fine print out of the way. As you know, your contract says that if you change the scope for any reason, my fee will be X, Y and Z or increased by abc. So let's discuss how you want to move forward, adjust my fee accordingly, and just get right to work on that new direction. And I say it like that. And I don't know if you kind of picked up on my tone where I was very intentional, but I try to show that I was ready to move on with whatever the client wants to do.

Yeah.

And I also said a couple of things here. I used your contract instead of my contract or even the contract, because, number one, it sounds. It sounds more. Less formal and it's more client conscious. It's all about the client. And you know, yourself, Ed, when you are writing copy for a client, whether it's your website or brochure that you want to make it about the client, you don't want to say, I, I, I, I do this, I do this. It's all about them. So you would say you would benefit this way or, you know, and that's sort of how I see this and present that idea in this context as well. So that I have a couple more if you want me to go ahead and.

Yeah, yeah, let's do that. So I love that. And you're giving us some very specific, actionable advice here. So I'm dig. Definitely.

Okay, great. Thank you. And I just want to say with this particular client, I said, I use this on the client. This client, she would change her mind every second. Same time. She was extremely creative and had wonderful, great ideas. So sometimes she would change her mind and I would say, wow, that is a great idea. Maybe we should go in that direction. But she, you know, she was on a budget and I wasn't ready to keep changing because that affected me as well. And so just if I could share your response, because I remember I wrote it down and kept it, she said, I can't afford to pay this anymore. I can't afford to pay any more than what we agreed to in the contract. So just let's move forward and If I need to change later, I'll contact you with a new project. And I saw that as a win. That's why I wrote it down, because of course I saw that as a win. And in fact, she. She did contact me with a new project, with a new direction. So it works, it does work, if you just kind of just keep steady, be intentional, and be diplomatic at the same time. Just a little success story there. Now, this next one. What do you say to a client who rejects your ideas over and over again? So again, using that pat formula that I introduced, you want you prove and prove that they're actually rejecting your ideas. And that's kind of hard to do because sometimes you don't know or recognize when they're rejecting. You can recognize it, but they're not going to say, I'm rejecting your idea all the time. They may sort of just not return your call or not respond to your email. So we've all had those experiences. So what I do is I'll look at, for example, the number of concepting meetings or options I presented, and then I get very, very specific. I'll say something like, let's go over the ideas I presented in email, dated XYZ or dated June 2, or whatever, and then we'll go over the email. And they don't necessarily have to pull it up, but I'll actually just use that as a conversation starter so that if they want to go to that email or if they want me to repeat information in the email, what we discuss, I would do that. And then I could be very specific with even the number of, for example, concepting meetings. We had about four or five concepting meetings or brainstorming meetings about this idea. So again, just giving them examples of what happened so that they understand and again, proving that's what the P stands for, what has occurred. And then with this one, a good benefit of the doubt or appreciation statement that works well, I'll say something like, you've been in this business or in this industry for, you know, X number of years, 20 some years, and you know it inside out. Just stop there, you know, and sometimes I'll pause because I'll let them say, yeah, I do know my business, or yeah, you know, I agree, I know my stuff, you know, and so that gives them the chance to kind of feel, you know, we may have a dialogue about, you know, how long they've been in business, what they've learned in their business, and why they maybe hired someone like me or, you know, who, despite the fact that they know their business, they still hired an expert. So it gives us a chance to do that. But I have to always feel like I have to prove to them that I understand that, you know, they know their stuff. And I don't hold myself up to necessarily a higher standard than they are in this project. And then I go to the T as intel, I tell them what I bring to the table. And you can say something you don't say, but you know, you'll say, what I have is experience getting results. And then you give examples. For example, I've done this for a client in your industry. That client, I wrote a white paper for that person. I'm just throwing out examples, white paper for that person and for this company and this industry, and draw some similarities between your experience and what they want, your experience and their industry. And then I always end up with the last statement in that tell section saying something like, so how about we try at least a few of my ideas and if we need to adjust, we'll adjust. So again, you're saying, hey, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but at least try my ideas, and if I need to adjust, we'll adjust. We'll work it out. And of course, you have to make sure that your contracts are in place if you have how many revisions you're going to allow under a certain fee. So of course, all of those have to be in place. This works well because the client, I feel and in my experience are put at ease and are not feeling like I'm trying to jam something down their throat. But I'm also holding true to my experience and reminding them of why they hired me. And it's important that you prove that. The other thing too, to throw in this particular section, the tell section, is maybe suggest that they read some testimonials. You can point them to your testimonial page. If you go to my website, you can read about what Joe Schmo and ABC Company said about the kind of work I did and that Joe Schmo's company is similar to yours. So there's all kinds of opportunities there to get your experience in there. But you want to make certain again that you're intentional. Let's try at least a few of my ideas.

Yeah. And I guess you have to be careful, right? Have a strike a good balance between you know your stuff and I also know my stuff. Right. So it doesn't appear that you're saying you know your stuff, but I know my stuff even more.

Exactly.

So strike the right balance. And I Like this, because this could work really well even when you're going kind of a little out of scope in terms of revisions like so there are. I have those terms and conditions in my contract, but good clients. I mean, I'm flexible. But I still think that even then it's important to state it the way you did because you're proving to them that you're showing to them that you're, first of all, out of scope at this point. And, and this is why. But listen, I'm not denying that you're asking. What you're asking for is a good idea, but this is why we should also maybe try this. So it really softens that conversation, which can be difficult to have if you're trying to let them know, look, we're out of scope at this point. I'm going to go ahead and do it, but be mindful of this.

Right.

Okay. I like that.

Thank you. Thank you. And you know that last example with the tell section, it also works with this. Another scenario that I've come across with business women freelancers. Female freelancers. I had a woman ask. In fact, I did a survey of 100 women, all freelancers and business owners, a couple of corporate senior executive women. But a lot of the freelancers would ask a question similar to this. As a woman, I feel like I have to prove myself to male prospects. How do I demand attention without sounding rude or whining? And let me just say this, and for all your listeners, too, don't want anybody writing you or emailing you, Ed, saying, wait a minute, not all men are like that. We all know that. But general and generally speaking, there are some women who may feel that way. And whether or not it's true that this is happening to them, I always provide a conversation starter that will make them feel more qualified or credible. And they are. And so I always tell them, talk about your credentials and your qualifications. Because men and women do have different ways of, with exceptions, of course, but they have different ways of communicating and taking in information. And there's plenty of studies that will show that men, when they talk about their accomplishments, if you're going out to a bar with your buddies, you just played golf or baseball, you'll talk about your score and your wins. And women may talk more about relationships. So I always tell women, I don't have no, I tell them, I have no idea if you're experiencing this, if this is real. But talk about your accomplishments, talk about your wins, try to quantify it if you can. I've saved this amount of money for my clients. I've made this amount of money, I generated X amount of leads. And then that seems to help them. Even if the guy has no problem with them and it's just all in their head, it helps them feel better about the situation. And if the guy has a problem with a woman, then it does. It helps with that conversation as well. So I always try to, you know, foster positive gender communication when I come across issues like that. And it seems to work from the feedback that I've been getting. And I know in my experience as well, I agree.

I've talked to many women who've shared this with me, said, look, it's just hard for me to talk about me and my stuff and same thing with guys, but I hear it more from women than I do from guys. And I think it's just the way we've been programmed. It is what it is. So yeah, I think that's very smart for you to be mindful of that and to point it out because if you tend to avoid that, this is not the time to do it. All right, so let's move to the last one. What's this one about?

Well, the last one is actually the flip side. If a male is dealing with a woman who has a woman owned business and her target market are females as well. I've had gentlemen say, you know, I don't know how to talk to this person, especially if it's a type A mail. And they'll say, you know, I feel like I'm getting feedback that I'm being too blunt, I'm jumping ahead too quickly, I'm not willing to express enough details and things like that. And what I do is this is something a little different than just sort of reflecting. I try to coach them on how to set themselves up to be trying to think of the right word more likable to that particular female audience. And again, it's based on the feedback that they're giving me. And I'll tell them like, for example, if someone were to say to them, you know, you're going too fast, you know, you're moving too fast, you're talking too fast, we want, you know, our target marketer women, they like detail. They like, you know, for you to spend a little bit more time thinking things through. And I recommend to this one person, say something, bring up your family, you have any daughters? Do you have a wife? Bring up an experience with them. So for example, if a woman said, you're too blunt, you're too fast, you're too Whatever. You know what that reminds me me of the time my daughter and I were driving the car on the way to our father daughter dance. She said the same thing to me. And what that does is that opens again, it's females. And I'm going through studies because I studied all this as well as my own experience as a female. If someone were to say that, first thing I would say in my mind, maybe not out loud was oh, that's really nice. He's hanging with his daughter, he's doing things with his daughter. He obviously respects females. And that's just a way again, women and men see things differently. I have to repeat this exception. There are many exceptions, but that has worked. I find that that has worked and it kind of softens them a little bit. And particularly if they're dealing with a company that caters to females, that's very, very important that that male, although hired for his expertise, is showing that he can understand and relate to females.

I think that's very smart because it's. Obviously you don't want to fake it here or say something that's untrue, but if you have something, and I think we all do in our, in her own life that could prove to the other person, listen, I understand and prove it to them through indirectly. I think that's a great idea.

Right. And I had a one woman tell me she has, I have a very male approach to problem solving or communicating. And this is what she was accused of. And so I gave her some ideas on that. She happened to have daughters, she was a great cook. And I know this sounds so biased because men cook as well as females, but if you're dealing with a certain type of demographic, especially if you're a lot of consumer products that are contained cater towards females and children and families, that's what I recommend that people do. And you're right, you don't want to make anything up. So I, that's one of the things that I do. I try to, I ask questions and try to get them to pull out something from their life that they can use under these circumstances.

So I'm curious about something in particular. These are great guides that you've given us. I've taken some good notes here and this, this really makes a lot of sense. But I'm curious if you have maybe a couple of of of tips for people when they are in difficult situations like this. Let's say you prepare by doing what you just suggested, right? To have some talking points in front of you, kind of rehearse them. In your mind. But how can you stay calm and on point and not say or do something harsh? Any ideas or suggestions for making sure that you kind of stick with your plan as you're going through that conversation?

Well, the first thing that you need to do is to stop talking. If things seem to be getting, and I'm not sure if you're saying this, but if things seem to be going wrong or in the wrong direction or nervousness or both, stop talking and ask questions. You can ask a question, let's see, for example, specific questions like tell me what it was about that idea that you didn't like. I really want to know. I'm sure that there's something that's missing or there may be something that's missing or obviously there's something that's missing or you know, when you ran it past your marketing team, what were some of their universal objections? And just listen. So that's the best way again, the best way to get someone to listen, to get you to stop talking and to get them to start talking is to ask questions. And if you are customer focused, you should be able, you should find questions. Questions should come to mind. You shouldn't have to prepare for those. That's one of the things I would tell clients is that you don't have to, I shouldn't have to tell you what questions to ask that are customer focused questions to ask. You should know that. And certainly I'll help them through that. But it's something that everybody should, can plan ahead. You know, the type of questions because you're the information gathering. But it also, it stops things in their tracks and you get them to talk. And that really, if you're just sitting there listening, it really does calm your nerves. And one thing that can make people nervous, you know, freelancers nervous. If someone is getting angry and getting upset, that makes you nervous and you don't know what to say next. You can throw out something like this, you know, something you said really got me thinking. So, you know, if they're ranting and raving, something you said really got me thinking. You're not saying, I agree with everything you said. You're not saying, you know what, you're right, I'm an idiot. I messed up. What you're saying to them is what you just said really got me thinking. And then you can go into, first of all, it calms them down. And then you can go into, and here's what I, here's what I think about that, or here are my suggestions, you know, because they're not necessarily. At least in my experience, they're not necessarily looking for you to say to pinpoint exactly what they said. That got you thinking. Most clients are going to say absolutely. It should have gotten you thinking. Because what I'm saying is absolutely on point. What I'm saying absolutely makes sense. So that absolutely works. I love that. And it wasn't that. I have to say that's not my idea. I learned that from a colleague in the communications coaching field. But it's so worth something. You said really got me thinking and just stop and pause, let it sink in and then move into whatever you have to say next. And that should be solution oriented commentary.

I like that. I like that. And I like your idea of asking questions because sometimes the best way to calm down is it's just to get that breather. And if you can get the other person talking because you asked an open ended question, at least you can kind of collect yourself and then get back on track. Especially with something that it's getting a little heated and you're getting really upset, for instance, or you're really nervous then. I know that's helped me a lot.

Yeah.

So great stuff, Mellie. This is very, very helpful. Let's face it, right? We all have to deal with these difficult conversations. I think he's picked some great examples to go over, and these are very practical tips. So I appreciate you sharing those with us. Before we wrap up, how can listeners learn more about you and your business?

Well, you can visit my website@thediplomaticscribe.com T H E D I P L O M A T I C S C r I b e.com the diplomatic scribe.com Excellent.

I love that.

Thank you. I kind of toyed with that because some of my friends have known me for a long time. They're like, you're very assertive. You're really blunt. Are you really that diplomatic? And I'm like, well, that's my job to be diplomatic when I'm helping my. My clients out. So I'm also known as people just to kind of throw this out there. Someone said you're a candid conversation starter. And I think that's the. That's a good name for you as well. So I think I'm going to totally trademark that one as well.

Oh, I like that. Isn't that crazy how sometimes the best descriptions come from other people?

Yes.

So you know you're like this for that, right? Great. Well, Mellie, again, thank you for. For coming into the show today for the sharing these ideas with us. I truly appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you so much for inviting me. I really had a great time. Thank you.

Ed the High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.