#127: Hannah Glenn on Refining Your Niche as You Go, Taking Baby Steps to Success and the Power o...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Well, hello there and thank you for joining me for episode 127 of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. My name is Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or or the part time equivalent. Just a reminder that you can find the detailed show notes for this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode127. There you'll find a summary as well as all the links that we talked about in the interview. So this is another episode in our continuing series on the importance of grit and freelance success. If you haven't yet listened to it, I encourage you to go Back to episode 126 where I introduced this topic and I discussed some ideas around this whole concept of grit. But today I have a guest and her name is Hannah Glenn. Hannah is a freelance writer based in the Los Angeles area and she is a true model of grit. She went through my B2B business launcher 2.0 coaching program a while back and she's a perfect example of someone who didn't rely on luck to get ahead. She had to work and she had to work hard. And when I say hard, it's not like this frenzied night and day kind of thing. But she really had to get outside of her comfort zone and she really had to persist. All the elements of grit have been present in the success that she's achieved so far. A few important points that you're going to hear in this interview. One is that you don't necessarily need to have a previous career in a specific field in order to work in that field as a freelance writer or copywriter. And you'll hear Hannah's story there. You also need to recognize and accept the fact that you will very likely pivot. You will make changes and adjustments to your positioning and to your niche once you get out there and you start prospecting and start knocking on doors and you start trying new things. And this is such a key point because as writers, we tend to want to plan for months and we want to research and think about how we're going to do this and how we're going to position ourselves. But I have to tell you, after doing this for many, many years and coaching more than 300 freelancers, more than 250 of which have started from scratch, more planning does not equal Better success down the road. At one point, enough planning is enough, and you have to get out there because the adjustments you'll make, you'll only realize the best adjustments to make once you get out there. And that's a key point. Another one that I loved was the fact that steady and deliberate action are key. That's something that we constantly hammer here in this show and in my blog. Serendipity only happens when you start taking action. Hannah also talked about samples. You know, the fact that she didn't have really much to get started with a while back, you know, when she, when she got out there. And if you don't have samples or your samples are not impressive, that's okay. Just start with your. Where you are, with what you've got, and just get creative, be resourceful, and you'll hear what she had to work with and how she overcame this obstacle. You'll hear about how she used warm email prospecting and what she thinks of it. And bottom line is, I'll give you a hint, warm email prospecting works. It's very, very effective. But you have to do it consistently. You know, many people expect that, oh, if I send out five, six, seven emails, you know that's going to do it. And they get discouraged when they've sent out 10 emails and nothing has happened. Don't expect a massive win from sending out just 10 emails. It's going to take much more effort than that in most cases. She also talks about setting an effort goal every day, focusing on baby steps and quick wins and why that's so essential to freelance success. And she also talks about the flip side of this, the fact that grit doesn't mean working nonstop and sacrificing your health. She talks a little bit about how she takes time to breathe and to relax because you could drive yourself crazy otherwise. So there's much, much more in here. I don't want to ruin it for you, but I'm very excited to have Hannah on the show and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Hannah, so great to have you on the show. Welcome.

Hi, Ed. I'm really excited to be on the show.

Oh, so am I. So am I. You know, you got such a great story and, and I know what you have to share here is very applicable to a lot of our listeners. You know, before we get to just your story in general, why don't you give us a little bit of background, tell us a bit about what you do, what type of clients you like to work with, that sort of Thing.

Yeah. So right now I'm currently focusing on nonprofits, specifically in healthcare, but any nonprofit. And then I also am working with renewable energy companies, so creating content or content development. Also doing some social media stuff as of late, so. Yeah. And did you want me to talk about where I sort of came from too?

Yeah, tell us about that. And then also I'm always interested to hear why people decided to go solo. So I'd love to know more about what made you decide to go out on your own.

Yeah, okay. Well, I can probably address that right off the top. So I guess I've really sort of always wanted to go solo and be just a writer. Very independent. I guess I've kind of always been independent. I always wanted to. Like, I remember even as a kid and just all throughout my life, my image of myself as a grown up was like, living in this, like, cabin and writing and somehow making money and like walking my dogs all the time. That was like, what I thought I was gonna be. Yeah. And so I was like, how do I make that happen? You know? And so I guess where I kind of started was while I was in entertainment, essentially. I went to film school because I was interested in screenwriting and I was a columnist for the college newspaper. Published some poetry there, that kind of thing. And I was always writing stories as a kid and all that stuff. And so then I graduated with this film degree and was kind of like, okay, now what? So I moved to LA from Ohio and I just kind of dove in. And I remember I went to this job placement agency and I sat down with a recruiter and she said she looked at my resume and she was like, well, you're clearly a writer, but it's just kind of hard to find, like a full time, like, writing job in this industry. Maybe like right now, right out of the gate, whatever. So are you open to other things? So I tried a few different things, like talent management, pr, casting, and the last two actually have a lot of writing, which I enjoyed. You know, PR is like form of marketing. Casting requires a lot of research, good communication and creativity and that kind of thing. But I was also, you know, researching other means of making a living as a writer because I still had that vision of myself as this, you know, independent writer. Not like having to show up at a job and have this kind of entertainment's very frantic and there's a lot of, you know, like, running all over the place. And I was like, man, this just isn't me, you know? So I just kept thinking, you know, people do it, though. How do people do it? I took writing and marketing courses at UCLA and blogging and SEO mastery courses, copywriting courses through awai. I came across resources like your podcast and all the wealth of information stemming from that, you know, network of other writers. Did some coaching with copywriters and your business launch course. And so I was just kind of building my knowledge and freelancing on the side for a couple years, knowing that I wanted to transition into it full time, and now I'm doing it.

That's awesome. I love it. I love that image of the cabin. It's such a writer thing.

No, it so is. I know it's sort of cliche. Maybe Emily Dickinson, like Ernest Hemingway a little bit. I don't know.

Well, I think many of us secretly wish we had a tight deadline where we could tell our families, that's it. I'm going away to a cabin for a week to meet the deadline. I know I actually told my wife that one time, and fortunately I was able to get it done in my office. But it was that crazy around the house that I said, oh, this would be a great excuse to leave. So let's talk about when you were starting your work as a freelancer and you decided on a target market and you started prospecting. Tell us a little bit about kind of how that came about. I know you had kind of an unexpected surprise somewhere along the way. Can you share that with us?

Yeah. So my experience is a really good example of how a niche can evolve once you start taking action. I've always been interested in health and wellness, and that interest was kind of accelerated when I started developing these food sensitivities and stuff, which I. And so I got really into healthy eating and how certain supplements can be beneficial and mindfulness, basically, like a holistic approach to health kind of thing. And so that was a catalyst for me launching my blog, Hollywood Snackdress, where I post recipes for healthy food and more recently, talk about experiences of going through these kind of physical mental health challenges and how to get through them. Maybe not mental health, but, you know, the difficulty of mental challenges. So when I first started prospecting, I thought that with my interests, it made sense to reach out to, like, supplement suppliers and manufacturers. But it wasn't really. Nothing really came of it. I mean, it got a couple nibbles, but it just kind of petered out. And I think in retrospect, that's partly because I didn't really enjoy reading, like, the trade magazines, so it wasn't really a good fit. Whereas with energy and nonprofits. I actually really love reading up on what's happening. So it just. There's more interest on both ends, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. And so it sounds like you were trying to stick to the business to business side. You were interested in health and wellness, but you wanted to kind of keep it B2B.

Yeah, and I'm still, you know, with the renewable energy, I'm still trying to stick to B2B too. I like the B2B sales funnel. I like the pace, you know, I like the how it's a little bit more toned down because again like with the like B2C can sometimes again kind of have a little bit more of the frantic. Not always, but you know, it's a little bit more fast paced and that kind of thing. But yeah.

So tell us a little bit more about evolution. You mentioned that, you know, you got out there and then things started evolving. It sounds like maybe you know, what you envisioned, like your first vision of what you would do wasn't where you ended up.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's true to a degree. And I think that's just a matter of like just getting out there and seeing what works. Because you know, like one thing was like I was like, oh well, health and wellness. So maybe I can write for these different, you know, like ways wellness publications and that kind of thing. But it's kind of like I sort of tried that. I did a lot of pitching and I found that like it was either like super hard to get through or like very kind of like not really paying that well or even expect people expecting you to write for free and that kind of thing. I did a little bit of that just to get some, you know, samples online. Like I wrote for Life Hack for a while, but I knew that like kind of the whole like long term viability actually making a sustainable living where I wasn't driving myself crazy that I had to move into more of a corporate or at least you know, more business oriented market.

Yeah. And how did you make those decisions? I mean, so you start trying some things and that wasn't kind of what was working for you or you didn't really, like it wasn't giving you the results you wanted. How did you make those decisions to keep pivoting?

I guess just a lot of like trying it and then a lot of wandering around the house talking out loud to my husband about stuff that he didn't know what I was talking about, you know, like, oh, maybe if I try this and oh, and he's like, I Don't actually know what you're saying, you know, which. Just using him as a sounding board, I think that. And then just, you know, I don't know. Just a lot of. Gosh, I feel like there's a lot of introspection and a lot of being, like, still and finding, like, what makes sense rather than kind of bouncing off the walls. I think initially there's a lot of, like, you can do a lot of, like, almost being manic and, like, trying to, like, scoop everything up at once and just trying one thing at a time. Okay, that didn't work. Okay, let's try this. Okay, that didn't work. Well, this one's kind of working. I'll keep going, you know.

Yeah, And I think you have a really good intuition for where to move or when to move on, because one of the biggest questions is, you know, how do I know if I need to now kind of shift my focus? When do you make that decision? You know, do I. Am I. Am I doing that too early? But I get the feeling that you. You had a good balance there that you just knew. Okay, I've given this a really fair shot. Now let me. Let me pivot.

Yeah, yeah. It's a matter of, like. Yeah, putting. How much energy are you putting in? How much are you getting back? Like, you have to expect that you are going to put out a lot out there into the world and not get a lot back. That's a given. But if you're getting, like, pretty much nothing back. And I guess another indicator for me was when I would get something back from a supplement manufacturer and they would be like, oh, can you send us your samples? And rather than being, like, feeling, well, okay, I don't have any samples, but I know I can do it. I was kind of like, I don't know if I can even do it. You know what I mean? It was kind of like I didn't feel like I could, honestly. Like, maybe I didn't. I was like, maybe I don't know enough, or maybe I'm not interested enough to learn it, because that's the difference. So I don't know everything about renewable energy, but if someone gives me an assignment and I'm not exactly 100% sure, I research the heck out of it and it's fun. Whereas if someone made me research the heck out of, like, some supplement, it would be super boring.

Well, along those lines, let me ask you something that I get asked a lot, and that is the chicken and egg problem of, you know, I don't have 40 years experience in, you know, commercial insurance or, you know, healthcare or whatever, but that's really what I want to write about. So if I have no samples and not much of a track record, or let's say I do have a track record in the industry, but I just don't have the writing samples, you know, is it even possible? Right. How do you get past the. I don't need. I don't have a writing sample for that niche or target market.

Yeah, I would say the biggest thing is to create. Either create writing samples within the market or create writing samples that could be used in any market. Like, for me, how I got into the health and wellness stuff, I launched my own blog. You don't have to do that. But that was something I kind of wanted to do. Another thing I did was I wrote for free for Life Hack. And it was one of those things where they were not. I wasn't obligated to send them a certain amount of things. It was just an arrangement where they. I had an opportunity to write for them. I could pitch them stories, I could pick stories. And it was on my own terms, on my own time. And then I had a decent amount, a handful of health and wellness things to send to health and wellness clients. And I think that helped a lot. And it still comes up. Even with a recent client meeting, they were saying, oh yeah, we were looking at your stuff on lifehack and it's like they don't know that that was unpaid. They just know that it looks good and it's on the Internet and there's sometimes you can get like a couple thousand shares and it's like, it looks great. That'll do.

Yeah, right? You don't need that much. You just need that little bit of a bridge. It sounds like you got creative with it. You had a blog and yeah, it was a different thing. It was a business to consumer setting, but it didn't matter. I mean, to a lot of people, they just want to see something, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I even had someone reach out to me that was interested in me rewriting her business consulting website. And she was like, I checked out your blog and you're just a good writer and I would like you to write for me. And it's kind of like, well, it's so funny because it's like they're really not the same thing. But she just liked the way that I wrote. So I think if you can just shoot, show that you can write and that you're capable of absorbing information and translating it, I Think that really helps. Having different formats is helpful, but just start somewhere. Just have one or two things that you can send and it builds.

I love that quote. You don't have to see the whole staircase. You just have to see the first step. What I love about what you shared so far is, you know, you didn't have all the answers, you didn't have a ton of samples when you started, but you just got out there and you made it up as you went.

Totally. Yeah.

So let's talk about prospecting for clients, because I know, you know that this was an issue. Nobody really likes knocking on doors, but. And I know you had some reservations about it. How did you get over the fear of prospecting and selling? And I'm curious also how you actually prospected for clients.

Yeah. So. Well, my number one method of prospecting for clients is the warm email prospecting. Actually, I find that works best for me. And then if I really can't, if I'm in the middle of it and I really think it's a good potential client and I can't find an email, then I'll just call them and that's fine too. You just pick up the phone and.

Call them in those cases.

Yeah. If I'm really stuck and I've been like, I'm spending too much time looking for an email, which. Finding someone's email is a lot easier than it used to be. I've just gotten a lot smoother at finding this stuff. So it's not usually a big deal, but say it's a huge hospital or something, and I really just can't find the email. I'll just call them. Sometimes I get a hold of them. Sometimes I just leave a voicemail. But it's like, that's one thing is you really just have to just put it out there.

Yeah.

You know, well, I want to.

I want to come back to the call. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

But so tell me about warm email prospecting. What do you typically do there?

Okay, so with warm email prospecting, it's basically. It's basically a matter of you just finding something relevant so that they know that you are not. It's not just like a form letter. So they know that you are particular, you are reaching out to them on purpose, and you know a little bit about them. It can just be one tiny thing and then just getting kind of cutting right to the chase about who you are, what you do, how you can help, and then just, you know, very friendly. My favorite thing to end a warm email prospecting email with Is, does it make sense for us to connect? Which I think I stole from you because I just love it because it's just so, like, friendly and not. I don't feel like they're gonna feel obligated. It's just kind of like, hey, does this make sense? You know, it makes them a lot more. It puts them at ease to even reach back out and say, not really right now, you know, but they're not afraid. Afraid of me, you know?

Love it.

Yeah. So in general, my fear getting over, my whole fear of selling was kind of a three part thing. So number one, and this kind of goes both for emailing and calling, I had to really know and believe in what I was selling. I felt like if I was hawking garbage that people didn't really need, then I would feel icky, you know, like the old cliche used car salesman or pushy door to door salesman. So basically, once it clicked that people really do need what I have to offer and it will actually help them, not annoy them or hurt them, then I didn't feel bad about reaching out. And then the second part is understanding that not everyone, in fact, most people don't need your services right now. And that's okay. So when I truly need something, need help, and someone or some company comes along and says, hey, you might be able to help you, and I'm more than happy to say yes. Like when I was introduced to, like, Evernote, you know, it helps me every day. I use it all the time. Of course, there's a heck of a lot of stuff that is offered to me, you know, pumpkin spice Oreos and leasing a car that apparently comes with Matthew McConaughey, like, I just don't need it. But I'm not mad about it, you know, I just say, no thanks. I move along with my life. And that's a huge thing. Accepting that most of the time when you call or. Or email someone, they're gonna say, no thanks, move on with their lives and just respecting that. I think that's where human understanding and compassion really separates honest tradespeople and professionals from, I guess, ruthless sort of scoundrels who. Scoundrels who sell, you know, at any cost kind of thing.

Yes.

There's like this weird, irrational fear that people on the other end are gonna lash out at you or call you out as phony. I think Peter Bowerman talked about that maybe in well Fed Writer even, that the person on the other end is going to scold you or something for reaching out. But really, people are just doing their thing. If you can help, great. If not, just move on. It's not actually not bad.

It's not a personal rejection.

It's not. And it gets easier the way you do it. The more you do it. Then the last thing is just the importance of baby steps. And reminding myself of my quick wins was really huge. Like, there was this period where my inner critic was really so loud that I needed to acknowledge my quick wins in a constant, tangible way so I would actually just focus on what I had accomplished that day or that week, Even if it was just sending out X number of emails, regardless of whether I heard back. And just knowing that I was putting it out there, I was doing it, not just thinking about it. And you know, just holding on to that for dear life. I specifically remember one day that I was really struggling and I started writing down even the smallest wins in my mind on individual post it notes and just sticking them all over my desk to remind myself of things that were happening. Like stuff like so and so responded to my email. Even if they weren't saying like right now that they needed anything. You know, they just responded, which is good. Or this client said they were happy with that case study you wrote. Just needed to really like keep it visible for myself that, you know, from my little desk, I'm putting things out there into motion and something's going to click soon. And it's just a matter of persistence.

When. So when you talk about baby steps for those who are not familiar what we're talking about within this context, what did that mean to you? Like what, what were you considering? Baby steps.

Baby steps were writing a list out every day of the things that I had to do, consisting of either sending an email or just googling something that I needed to know more about or.

Each of those being a step, right?

Yeah.

There wasn't about like get this perfect outcome or get this result. It was about doing these little things.

Yes. Take like, because that's the thing. There's so many things swirling around in your mind, it makes you crazy. But when you just write a list out, you'll write out 10 little things that you can do. Google content marketing for renewable energy companies today so that I can know a little bit more about who I'm reaching out to. You know what I mean? Who reads nonprofit. What do nonprofit marketers read? Just Google that today, you know, And I have like 10 things that I need to do, making prospecting a huge priority in that. And then at the end of the day, it's like I may not have, like, my dream, you know, client roster yet, but I did those 10 things I needed to do. And that feels good.

That was the reward, the fact that you did them.

Yep.

That's awesome. Yeah. Sometimes when I talk about baby steps. So funny, I can't help but think of the movie. What about Bob?

I think about that, too.

Baby steps to the computer. Baby steps to logging onto LinkedIn. Baby steps to finding a prospect. Okay, that's it for today. I'm not going to email them yet.

I found them. I have them. Baby steps.

Baby steps. Baby steps. But it works. It really does. Right? Because these things are fearful the moment we put them on a pedestal and we blow them out of proportion. And let's. I mean, I'm very disciplined. I will not do it. I mean, if it sounds scary, I will not do it. So. Okay. But that big thing is comprised of, let's say, 15 micro steps. All right. Can I do the first one on the list?

Yes. Right, Absolutely. And if you. Because if you just don't. If you don't write it out, if you don't get started at it, that's what makes you feel overwhelmed. But when you know that you're. You're like, okay, I'm a little overwhelmed, but I'm chipping away at it. It's just. It's such a good thing.

I love it. I love it. And the fact that you're recognizing. Right. All these little wins, because that's the other half of it. It's the. It's not just doing them. It's the, what did I do today? You know, they may have been three small things, but darn it, that feels good. The fact that I actually did them. Because yesterday I didn't do any of them.

Yeah. Yep. Or if someone just, you know, if someone would write me back with, like, hey, not right now, but we'll keep you in mind. It's like, okay, that's awesome. They didn't reject me.

Yeah. They actually responded.

Yeah.

That's cool. That's cool. So I want to go back real quick to phone calls, and I'm curious. We don't have to dive deep, but I'm just curious, when you can't find the person's email address, assuming you found their phone number, what do you say? Or what do you ask? What approach do you take there?

Yeah, so I just. Usually it's a little different because, you know, I'll just. But I'll just basically say, you know, hi, I'm a. You know, I'm A content writer. I'm an independent content writer. I specialize in renewable energy or nonprofits and home calling, healthcare. And so I was just looking at your website and I saw. Da, da da. Just curious if you could, if you ever work with outside writers, if you could use a hand right now. Something like that, sort of variations on that theme or you know, you know, you know. Well, I guess, yeah, sometimes, like, I know you guys are. Sometimes companies are overwhelmed with, you know, and they can't get everything done in house. Like, you know, can I help? That sort of thing. Just sort of brief, really kind of get to the point, you know, who I am, what, how I can help you. If you want to talk, give me a call back. Here's my number.

Gotcha. So it's very similar to the warm email script, but you have to just make some obvious changes because it's a voicemail or you're talking to a human instead of an email.

Yeah, yeah. Because you know, in the. So like in the. Yeah, in the email it's going to be a little more detailed. Like if you can use help with, you know, I list like all the things, like if you can use help with blog content, case studies. Da, da, da, da. I'm not going to say that in the voicemail, you know. Cause it sounds like a script. I just really, you know, it's like it should sound like. I almost, you know, want it to sound like someone who. That they might be like, did I meet this person at a cocktail party and I don't remember? You know what I mean? Yeah. Where it's just like, hey, just curious. If you need any help, let me know. Because it's not threatening and it's not like, yeah, annoying.

And it sounds like you do get voicemail a lot, which is extremely common. Normal. You go ahead and leave the voicemail.

I do. And I actually get calls back sometimes. You know, I'm sort of. It's sort of funny. I didn't. I almost just sort of do it as like, I don't know, we'll see. But like, yeah, like there was one day I left a voicemail and a few voicemails and then I like went out to the kitchen to get something to eat. And then someone called me back and I was like, you know, that's awesome.

Do you ever do like the happy dance? And then after the happiness, the happiness kind of starts wearing off because, you know, you're thinking, oh my gosh, now I actually have to talk to them.

Yeah.

I'm just happy they responded. But I don't want to talk to them.

It's like that so much. Yeah. They actually get back to you and you're like, yay. Oh crap. And then like, or later, you know, you actually get the job and it's like, awesome. Oh my goodness. Now I actually have to do it. Can I do it? You know, have I done. I think it's normal.

I think that's a great point. And I know that had to take some courage. Sounds like you're more used to it now. But picking up the phone is a big deal for a lot of people. But it sounds like it's paid off.

I like it. I'd say I get more luck with the emails. I can also track the emails a little bit better. Or not maybe track it so much. But like I have streak where I can schedule it to come back to me. So I have this like really nice system of I have like my current sales funnel and then my long term nurturing sales funnel. I'll have stuff come back to me every couple weeks or every couple months so I can like reach out again or send something to them. So it's kind of nice in that sense. Whereas I don't have as much of a fluid calling system with the phone calls. But I guess that's just. I don't use. I don't do the phone calling as much. But it's not anything to be afraid of. Just do it. If you're scared of it, just do it.

Yeah, the fear does go away.

Yeah.

I don't know if this is something we can get into, but I know when we corresponded on this topic, you mentioned in one of the emails that through this process you learned how to find creativity in your prospecting. And I was curious what you meant by that.

Yeah. So I guess I found that. Well, for one thing, you know, like I mentioned, what used to take me kind of all day I can do in three hours now. And it's almost like a muscle memory thing at first, you know, finding and researching companies, organizations, employees, figuring out what to write or say, you know, kind of takes forever and it's clunky, but over time it gets easier. And then also over time I found that there's actually a nice sense of flow to it. Kind of getting into that state of flow. Once you have a system in place for tracking everything, you don't have to worry about it. And then kind of making connections between seemingly disparate things or tying experiences, something you read recently or whatever, into making yourself relevant to them. It's Actually kind of a lot of fun. Like, I think it was Steve Jobs quoted as saying something about, like, creativity is connecting things or connecting the dots. And then there's like, Albert Einstein who said, creativity is intelligence, having fun. So the idea that you can engage your creative brain with the way you approach potential clients, I think it not only makes it more fun for you, but that comes through on their end as a first testament to your capacity for understanding. You know, maybe not even on a conscious level, but I think it's there. Does that make sense?

It does. It does. My. My whole thing is with this approach to prospecting, where it's really, like. I like to call it artisanal prospecting because it's a handcrafted message. Right. In other words, you've done your homework. It's so different from the way that people are being marketed to that by its very nature, you stand out. So if you can be creative in your approach, and we're not talking crazy, but just a little bit showing that you've done homework and you've thought about them and how to approach them, that, like you said, unconsciously just makes you stand out.

Yeah, Yeah. I had someone recently. Honestly, I think the last couple people that I reached out to most recently, one of the things that they said when they reached out was like, oh, I liked in your email that you mentioned, like, this and that about our CEO, that shows that you're paying attention or you understand or whatever. So, yeah, it works.

So looking back to back when you were getting started, and I'm curious, because I want to take you back there, because I know a lot of listeners, or at that point you were. Back then, if you could give yourself some advice, if you could get on the time machine and go back to that point and give yourself some advice, what would you tell your younger self?

I guess this is super cliche, but just start doing what needs to be done right now. Don't put off taking action any longer than absolutely necessary. Because once you're actually doing what you want to do, there's just an incredible sense of clarity and focus that's really empowering. And you will definitely ask yourself, you know, why didn't I do this sooner? I'm already doing that. You know, I would say just try to stay focused. Write lists and because again, like we were talking about earlier, when things Lists and because again, like we were talking about earlier, when things are just flying around in your head, it's really frustrating when you write a list, you can make it something you can actually tackle. I Had a revelation about myself. And that kind of, like, when I walk around the house and I see something that needs to be picked up or cleaned up, I'll be like, oh, these glasses need to go in the sink. So I'll end up picking things up as I'm walking around. And then, like, one time, I ended up having so much stuff in my arms, I dropped a glass and broke it, you know, and it's just like, I was just like a light bulb. I was like, oh, man. I do this, you know, in my life in, like, so many ways.

You know, metaphor.

You're right. I need to just focus on, like, the one thing I need to take to the kitchen. I'll get the other stuff later. And so you don't get overwhelmed and mess up. And then the last thing I think I would say is, just breathe. Just breathe really deeply. Obviously, work towards your goal, but don't walk around with your jaw clenched, you know, because you're not there yet. Like, it'll become a habit that you'll carry on with you. So just enjoy your life. Take care of yourself, you know, go for walks because, you know, live your life with. Enjoy. Because years go by either way, so you might as well soak up the good stuff, you know, and you'll be so much better off for it because, you know, there's no arrival anyway. You're always going to be clenching your jaw.

Yeah. It's like, don't go about it in a frenzied way. Right. Which is not. I mean, I. Listen, I find that very hard to do to. Not. Because I'm so driven. And when things don't go my way, my natural inclination is to do more. Right? Do more. I'm not doing enough. Darn it. And, you know, sometimes it's just, you know, have I done my very best? I'll go back to something my parents used to ask me when I bring back, you know, kind of so. So grades. It's like. And if I honestly did my best, I'd tell them that's all they wanted to know. And that's what we're teaching our teenager these days, is like, all we want you to do is not get straight A's. Just do your best. So I think that's great advice, Hannah, that you realize, look, all I can do is all I can do. And getting all frenzied and crazy is not going to help my performance. Right?

Totally. And I've totally been there. I've. I. You know, I. It was like a real habit for me. You know, to get frenzied. And I still do it. I definitely still do it. But just learning to kind of, like, find calm and just taking a step back and being like, okay, if I can calm myself down and just focus and enjoy things and then work, too, because I need both. You know, if I'm not working toward what I need to be, I go crazy inside, too. But you just have to find that kind of, like, balance, that rhythm of, like, working really hard and then giving yourself some, you know, some slack and a break and just enjoying, you know, walking down the street, like taking your dog for a walk or whatever, because you're not going to get there any faster because you're stressed out. You're just going to make yourself sick, and that's going to make you, you know, get further behind.

Yeah, yeah. So it sounds. The way I interpret and tell me this is accurate is finding that balance between grit and just kind of chilling out, which is a hard thing to do because I. One thing, one theme, I wrote down some notes here, is you definitely have that grit. You've done something that's very difficult to do. And I know we don't have to get into details, but you've had some great, great results, and you're doing extremely well. But that didn't come from just kind of sitting back. You were. You had that grit and you sat down, and you're very disciplined, and you did things one step at a time. I love the baby steps idea, but you're balanced also in your approach. You didn't go nuts.

Thank you. You know, I think maybe even some of it has come about in such a good way because I finally learned to develop that balance. You know, it's maybe a process that's taken me years. And I remember when I first. I had a call with a coach a couple years ago, maybe three years ago now or something, and I was just talking to her about all these different ideas of what I could maybe do. And she said to me, like, hannah, you sound a little frantic. You know, like, just calm down. And I kind of didn't realize that I was. But then I kind of. That sort of was like, oh, maybe I am being a little frantic. I just need to focus on one thing at a time. And then once I could do that and like, yeah, find that combination, that balance between grit and just calm. Allow yourself to have to be focused, be driven, do what you need to do, and then give yourself a break, too, at the end of it.

Wise words. Love that advice. So, Hannah, before we wrap up. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Yeah, so you can check out my food blog if you're interested, at Hollywood Snackdress. S N A C K T r e s s.com and then my main writing website is hannahglenrider.com or you can reach out to me on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. Those are my three favorite social channels.

Fantastic. We'll make sure to link to all that in the show notes. And I just want to thank you for coming on today and sharing your wisdom and your experience with us. This has been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed it.

Huge honor, Ed. Thank you.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B to B Business Launcher. Learn more@b2b launcher.com.