#138: Two Paths to Creating a Successful Second Income Stream with Info Products

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia. And this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. And just a quick reminder that you can find detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 138 and those notes include a summary of our discussion as well as links to resources and other goodies mentioned during the show. You know, I've been very intrigued with this idea of multiple sources or multiple streams of income for a long time. More specifically the mid-90s. And back then I came across a book called Multiple Streams of Income. And I forget who the author was, but it was a fascinating concept. You know, at the time I was traditionally employed, I guess I thought I would be traditionally employed for a long time, but even back then I had only been out of college for a few years and I realized that my whole livelihood depended on one entity, my employer. And when I, when I read about multiple streams of income, I realized that is the way to go because then you have choices. And I guess this whole idea of having choices, having freedom to make the best choices for me is really what drove me into kind of thinking through this a little bit deeper and trying to find some options. Now, little did I know that it'd be a long time before I actually found a path that would work for me. But, you know, it was all a journey. At least the seed was planted. In early 2001, I experienced my one and only career layoff. Now, fortunately, at the time, my wife and I had no kids yet my wife had an income. So we really didn't have a lot of expenses either. And because of that, we didn't have a huge downside. You know, in a way, our family was a bit diversified in that, you know, not having an income for a couple of months, we were still okay. Of course, it was nerve wracking. It was not a pleasant experience. I was kind of expecting it, but it was still not the end of the world. When things started changing for me was when we started having kids and my wife stayed home for a few years. And now I was really in a position with only one income. We had a son, we had more expenses, and I was well underway to becoming self employed, which of course, we've been conditioned to believe that that is a riskier proposition that that is a riskier place to be. So I really kind of went back to that original idea of developing other income streams and I began a quest to find some options, some options that would diversify my income as a freelancer. So again, at the time I was kind of transitioning, but I knew that once I made the leap, I didn't want all my income to always be from just client work. And the first foray into this was an ebook. And this is really more of a fun project, but I put together a PDF ebook in late 2005 on the topic of wine value. So one thing that I was known for in my family and among friends is just the ability to find wines that tasted like they cost maybe 30 or $40, but in reality cost $10 or less. I was really, really good at that. And partly because I had been studying and just tasting lots of different wines for, at the time, about 10 years. I mean, in a very deliberate way. This wasn't just a casual pastime. This is something I took very seriously, really enjoyed it, and I became known for that. People would call me or email me, hey, I'm having a party and I need a wine, maybe a red and a white. Can you give me a couple of options? I don't want to spend a lot. And after three or four or five people asking you the same thing, I realized maybe this is an info product, maybe this is something I can actually publish and charge for. And sure enough, so I started doing that and you know, it wasn't a huge financial success, but I caught the bug and I realized, okay, you can actually supplement your main income, maybe not get rich, but supplement your freelance income, your full time income with something like this. Three years later, in 2008, I followed that with a PDF guide that I launched titled Stop Wishing and Start Earning A Low Risk plan to escape 9 to 5 and launch a Profitable Copywriting Business. And I really consider this to be my first real info product. I say real because this was a lot more serious. It wasn't practice, it was for real, it was meaty. I really poured my heart and soul into contained all the valuable lessons I had recently learned when I transitioned from my day job into full time freelancing. And I realized at the time when I was making that transition that nobody had really published anything like this. And the little bit that was out there was really lacking in some cases. And in other cases it wasn't really targeted to someone who was going out on their own as a freelancer. So I vowed to do something about that and fill that gap. And I figured that other aspiring freelancers might benefit from these ideas and strategies. And of course, I hope it would also add a bit of diversity to my freelance income. Now, again, my expectations were relatively low. And little did I know though that with this PDF guide, which was about 160 pages, so again, very meaty, would be the genesis of a six figure info product business a few years later. Here's what I've learned over the years. Creating and selling info products can be a really fun and rewarding way to earn extra income or to make a full time living. But I think even more important for many of us, it can be an excellent way to diversify your income. And that's because info product sales can take some of the pressure off your marketing efforts and some of the pressure off the client work. And it can add some much needed predictability to your cash flow as a freelance professional. Now, the good news is that the market for info products and specifically for online courses and online training programs is growing. It's growing very fast and showing no signs of slowing down. So consider these interesting developments. Market research firm Global Industry Analysts projects that the global market for eLearning will exceed $241 billion by 2022. And yes, I said billion, not million billion with a B. LinkedIn spent $1.5 billion in 2015 to acquire online education company Linda, which publishes online courses. And at the time, this was LinkedIn's largest acquisition by far. You got companies out there like the Great Courses, Masterclass, skillshare, Creative, Live, Udemy, all popping up everywhere. And investors are funneling a significant amount of capital into these businesses. Even Oprah Winfrey has gotten into the game with their own own life classes. Now the good news for those of us who create or want to create info products is that the concept of online courses and online learning is no longer obscure. It's now mainstream due to everything that I've just described here. You know, some, some people might look at this as a negative thing, but it's actually a good thing that all these companies have gotten into the business because it's really taking something that was just unknown and obscure out into the mainstream. Now people know what this is. It's not something you necessarily have to explain to the average person. And despite appearances, there's actually plenty of room for small players like you and for me to make a good living publishing and selling info products. Even if by good living that means just earning a few extra hundred dollars or maybe a thousand or two extra A month after doing this for a while. So there are a couple of reasons for this and I won't get too deep into this, but the first one is this concept of the long tail. And the Long Tail was a very popular book about 10 years ago and it explained that in this age where the production factors, the capability to produce and to publish content is so inexpensive and available to pretty much everybody, you can actually, you don't need the middleman. You know, you can actually publish music and content and other forms of art and put it out there and actually sell it without a broker, without that intermediary. Now there's a, there's another valuable. And I'm going to link to this in the show notes, but there's an extremely insightful article that's a bit dense at first, but it really makes a huge point that you really need to understand in order to really grasp why info products are here to stay and why it could do really, really well with these over time if that's what you wanted to do. Is this whole idea of 1000 true fans. And this is an article published by Kevin Kelly, who's one of the editors and I believe founders of Wired magazine. And he explains why I think it's a great supplement to this idea of the long tail. He explains why you don't need to have this massive following in order to do well publishing and selling information or art. You know, we're talking about music, art of any kind, information, products, courses, et cetera in what I've taken from both of these articles. And this has really been something I've seen in my own business. So this is not theory is really the sweet spot here, is in kind of that middle section of the long tail. It's not very profitable to be way out to the right of in that long tail. You'll make some sales, but it won't be profitable. And it's going to be nearly impossible to be all the way to the left at the very beginning. What you really want is just all you need is a thousand true fans to make a really good living publishing and selling your information. So again, I'll link to those in the show notes, but that gives you a more in depth explanation as to why this is happening and why things have aligned in a way that can make pretty much anybody who can teach something of value, something that a certain target audience would find valuable and why they can put that out there and actually make a living out of this. Now it depends on what you want. I mean there's all kinds of possibilities. You can make a full time living doing this, or it could just be, as I mentioned, in many cases, just supplementing your freelance income can be a huge, huge help. Now, there's a lot of advice on this topic online, but I found that most of it lacks context. And most of that advice is just very generic. It's geared at either everyone or geared at people who already have a blog or an online property, as some things type, you know, such as an email list, you know, YouTube channel, something along those lines. And here's what I've found. There are essentially two proven paths that work well for people like us, people who are creative professionals. We're out on our own, we're freelance writers and copywriters. Okay, so let me just kind of condense it to really two viable paths and then I'll explain which one I prefer. So path A is building an audience first and then launching some sort of information product. Okay, so building that that audience first, building that tribe and then launching something you're going to sell to that tribe. Path B is to create your product first and then build your audience as you go. So let's explore these in more detail. Let's start with path A or option A. Building your audience first. Typically, the genesis of this approach is some sort of blog and or newsletter, email newsletter, it could be a podcast. That's certainly become a viable path for many people in terms of building their audience or YouTube channel or some sort of media where you're basically publishing quality content on a regular basis and giving it away. Okay, now the typical model I see for people who follow this is they do this for anywhere between three months to, in some cases, all the way to three years or longer. And by that I mean they haven't turned that opportunity into a commercial venture. So all they're doing is building an audience. And in order to build that audience, they're publishing great content. So without getting into a ton of detail, the whole idea is, look, I'm going to give you all this great stuff, but subscribe to my newsletter or to my feed so that you can be notified when I put it out there. Okay? Now again, at this point, they're not selling anything, so all you're doing is either offering the subscription so you'll be notified, or offering some sort of lead magnet which is free. It's some sort of checklist or cheat sheet or template, some sort of useful resource guide that you give away in exchange for somebody's contact information. At this point, essentially you're just collecting names and Email addresses in order to build that list. Okay. I've seen many cases of people going this route. Usually it wasn't planned. Usually it was just the way they happened to get started. Okay. My buddy ian Westerman from EssentialTennis.com started out publishing a weekly podcast. It was completely free. It was excellent content. I believe he did it for two and a half or three years before he even created and started selling anything. So he built that audience first. James Clear, James Clear.com did the same thing. He was publishing amazing content for several years before he started selling classes. David Seitman Garland at the Rise to the Top, same thing. He created an online property. It was a blog and a. Actually a TV show. An online TV show. And. And he didn't sell anything for a while. And actually even before he started selling info products, he published a book, which by the way, is a very common path. People will build a platform and an audience for a few years and they publish a book and then they have a platform in which they can promote the book much more easily. And then that paves the way also for some potential courses and training programs or coaching. Ramit Sethi is another one. Now, I haven't looked into this. I was actually doing a little bit of research on him, but I clearly remember reading something he wrote several years ago about how he built that audience for several years before he even tried selling something to them. So there are a lot of folks who have gone that route. Again, it's typically an organic process. It's not necessarily something they plan. They just said, I have something to share, I have something valuable, I'm going to put it out there. I'm going to build a website, a blog, a podcast, and I'm just going to start building an audience, collecting names in some cases. They weren't even doing that at first. They were just publishing great stuff. And then eventually they created an opt in form so people can join their mailing list. So the advantage of this approach is there is less pressure at first, right? Because really you're not trying to sell something. So the expectee might have some goals or expectations in terms of what you want to build and how much you want to build in terms of a list. But let's face it, you're not selling anything yet. So there's not this huge pressure to meet certain numbers for the most part. Another advantage is you get to know your audience really well, so you get to interact with them. You get to understand what they're looking for, what questions they have, what they want to Learn more about what their fears and aspirations are. Over time, you have an opportunity to refine your message and your positioning before you launch a product. Right. So before you put something out there that you're going to charge for, when you're, as you interact with this audience, you get to really understand what they're about and what they really want from you. And that's very valuable. It's also a great approach. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, if your goal is to sell books and to do some speaking. So this is, that's a very common path, is build a platform by putting out great content for free for a number of years. Now you have that platform. When your book comes out, you can promote your book to that audience, which, by the way, many publishers, that's what they expect these days. They're not going to do the promotion for you. They expect you to do it. So if you have that kind of platform, it's much easier to get a book deal. And then you, from there, you maybe either go the info product route or what many authors do is they just do the speaking thing. So they speak and they charge for speaking. So those are the main advantages. There are others, but really those are the biggest. Let's talk about the disadvantages. No paycheck for a while, okay? So when you're doing this, you're doing this for free. You're not going to see a financial return anytime soon. It's not going to be an immediate thing. It could take months, it could take years. As I mentioned earlier, it's costly to do this right in terms of mainly your time and elbow grease, but also some technology and some other resources that you need in order to make this happen. Everything from web design, maybe a virtual assistant to help you put some of this stuff together to publish on a frequent basis. You also, you end up training your audience to see you as kind of an everything is free resource. That's one of the potential pitfalls of this model. And I'm not going to say that, you know, you're going to attract a lot of people who just want free stuff, because that's just the name of the game. I mean, you have to do that no matter what. But if that's the way you start there, you're just naturally going to turn some people off and, you know, that's a topic for another episode. But I would say, look, it's actually a good thing if those people are turned off by that, then they shouldn't be in your tribe. Because if you're going to move in this direction, they're only going to see more of that. So maybe they just don't belong here and that's okay. Another disadvantage of this model is it can easily lead to procrastination just because you start building in. Let's just face it. Look, the really hard thing is not the work in building that audience. The biggest, the hardest thing to do is to get out there and publish something you're going to charge for, to put your work out there and ask people to give you money for it. And that whether it's conscious or subconscious, that fear will easily lead many people to procrastinate in terms of publishing that first course or online training program or whatever they're going to put out there. Your motivation over time can wane because it can become hard to justify putting in the time and the effort on a consistent basis for something it's not monetizing right now. And there's also this kind of guilt and fear and imposter syndrome that can keep you from just going out, from monetizing that business and that asset that you've created. So again, pros and cons, there's a good amount of each. So let's talk about the other option which is to create your product first and then build your audience as you go. This is what I ended up doing and it's by far my preferred and recommended method. So here's where I was and it's not that I actually gave this any thought. I was just in a situation where I had no choice. But I think you need to understand why I did it and I need to explain the situation. I had limited time, so by late 2005 when I published my wine ebook, I had a full time job and my side hustle was building my freelance copywriting business. And I was just really gunning for a six month window where I wanted to quit my day job and I was getting closer and I knew it. So that's the busiest I've ever been in. I worked pretty much seven days a week for a while. It was crazy. I just didn't have the time or the patience to build an audience for several months or maybe a year or longer and then put something out there. I wanted to iterate as quickly as possible because I knew that was going to happen. I knew that it wasn't going to be perfect right off the bat. So I wanted to put something out there and test it and see how the market reacted. So that was the motivation and frankly, I needed to see some results. Not necessarily financial Results, especially not for that wine product. But I needed to see that this thing actually worked, that somebody would actually give me money for some information that had value, some information that I had something I could teach them. It was the Same thing in 2008, early 2008 when I published my PDF guide on how to transition from full time work to full time freelancing. I was very, very busy at the time. I was already a full time freelancer. It was the busiest time I really, up until that moment I had a small window. I had been just itching to put this out there, to write it. And I had a small window the first couple of weeks of January, what I could actually create that content. I had a break between projects with some big, some bigger clients and I knew if I didn't do it then it wasn't going to get done. So I just, I had to get it done. I had to see results. I had very limited time. And again, it wasn't necessarily a financial thing. I was just itching to see if this actually worked. The advantages of this approach is there's a few and the first is it forces you to create a minimum viable product. So this concept comes from, I believe it originated in Silicon Valley. Same thing with this idea of rapid prototyping. And I'll actually link to an episode that I did on that particular topic of rapid prototyping. But it really forces you to put something out there as quickly as possible. Don't misunderstand me though, this is not a subpar product. I'm just talking about something that's good enough, test it, get market feedback and you can adjust as needed so you get faster time to result. It gives you a higher confidence level sooner in the game because you're making sales earlier and there is nothing that will impact your confidence like getting some people who will actually buy your info product. I mean, believe me, if you haven't been through this before, it is just incredible the feeling you get when that happens. This also forces kind of an incremental baby steps approach which is more natural and more congruent with how many of us are wired and motivated. I don't know about you, but you know, just like we've been talking here, I need to be able to see some results in order to keep going, especially the work involved. To get there is hard. You know, there comes a point when you just ask yourself what am I doing? You know, is this worth doing? This is a lot of time, I really don't have the time. And when you take that baby steps approach and you end up shipping your product, so to speak, and you get some results. Again, it's very, very motivating. You can refine and you can pivot sooner. That's another huge advantage. So believe me, you don't know what you don't know in as much planning as you do, it's going to start having diminishing returns very, very quickly. So there comes a point where you're better off just putting that minimum viable product out there and refining and pivoting based on feedback based on what happened. And here's why that's important and different from the other approach. When you've built a decent sized audience, let's say you spent a year and a half building an audience of 5,000 people. Okay? So you got a mailing list, an email mailing list of 5,000 people and you're about to put your first product out there. If it bombs, if this is not what the audience is looking for, this is the wrong audience. You have a huge sunk cost. In other words, you've put in a lot of time, effort, a lot of blood, sweat and tears into this. And it's very, very difficult to say, you know what? I think I'm in the wrong market, and then just start from scratch. The tendency is to just keep going and just keep going until something works. When you create your product first and you build your audience as you go, if you find out once you put your minimum viable product out there, that something is off, that you need to make a significant revision or you actually have to pivot significantly, you don't have that audience of 5,000 that you spent a year and a half building. So you don't have that sunk cost. And that can help you make smarter decisions. And the final advantage is kind of really encapsulated in everything I've said here is you get momentum earlier and you get to maintain that momentum. It's much easier to build and maintain that momentum when you are putting something out there a little bit sooner. Now, there are some disadvantages. The first one is obvious. When you go this route, you do not have a good size email list to start with, which can create fear, it can create paralysis. And a lot of people just decide, you know what? I don't have enough people to really promote this. And they start creating this narrative in their head that they need to try something different because this is not going to be enough. They miss the point that all you're supposed to do is put it out there. Even if all you get are a couple of Sales that in and of itself can really start creating the momentum you need. The other disadvantage is there's more pressure. For many of us, you're gonna feel pressured to generate some sales. And if it takes a few days to generate sales, if you don't generate sales at first, or even on that first product to the first few people you end up having on your list, that can. That can be heartbreaking. You know, I'm not gonna lie to you that that can be very tough. And, you know, finally, with this approach, you need more trust from your audience because you have a limited audience. And most people. The chasm between spending zero to spending a dollar, believe it or not, is just as great as, you know, 0 to 100 or 0 to 500. The biggest obstacle you have is people actually giving you money. It doesn't matter what the amount is, just giving you a dollar. That requires a high level of trust. So now there are ways around this. You can build a homegrown list of just a, you know, a couple of dozen people and actually get some sales, you know, but you're not gonna. That's still a couple of dozen people. You're not gonna sell a couple of dozen copies of your training program. Now, the advantages I feel far outweigh the disadvantages of this option. Option B, creating your product first and building your audience as you go. And this is not theory. I've proven this over and over again in my own info products business. All this stuff is hard, okay? But when you go the audience building route first, that's easier in a way. It doesn't require you to put yourself out there as much as creating and launching your products. So it's way too easy to stay in that mode far too long and just never actually ship, if you will, your product. You tend to get soft when you go that route. You know, you forget that you're out there to build value, but eventually you have to get paid. You know, eventually you have to generate some sales, and you can't see it as a guilt thing. You know, you can't feel guilty about this because just because you're charging for something doesn't mean you've sold out, okay? You are adding a different level of value for a segment of your audience that's willing to pay for that value. I'm a very realistic guy, you know, I'm. But I'm also driven and ambitious. I need to see results to stay motivated. And when you focus on building an audience, you're seeing results, but it's not the same as seeing A few sales. Everything I do in my training and coaching business is centered around two core concepts. And I've already mentioned one of them. Rapid prototyping, which is the same as sometimes I call it ready, fire, aim. Okay, so we're going out there with something, something that's good enough. Now that doesn't mean that it's subpar again, it's just, but it's good enough. We're not overthinking it. We're shipping, we're getting it out there and then we're course correcting as we get feedback. And then the other core concept is incremental confidence improvements. In other words, let's just get it out there. Let's make quick wins the top goal. So it doesn't really matter what the dollar amount is. We just need to see some results as quickly as possible. Because I know that quick wins will keep me going, will stay, will keep me motivated. And if it's not a quick win and if I'm not seeing results or anywhere near the results that I need to see, that's okay. As heartbreaking as that is, we're getting market feedback and then we can kind of stop the bleeding before it's too late. So business strategist and business coach Dan Sullivan, he's an amazing guy, wicked smart. He has this thing that he talks about when in the area of confidence, a lot of people feel like, you know, you need to have the confidence first, I need to feel confident first before I can take action. And he argues that if you wait for confidence to come, you're just never going to take action. So the way it works is actually backwards. First you have to commit, you have to make a commitment to do that thing. Once you make that commitment, you'll find the couple of ounces of courage that you need to take those first couple of actions. Once you take, take those actions, you'll start getting and gaining the capability that you need to actually perform. And once you start performing, that's when you get the confidence. It's a multi step process and you know, if you wait again until you have the courage to make it happen, it'll never happen. You know, it's, it's very, very difficult. And if you wait until you, you feel confident, you probably won't take action. So I have a very deliberate approach for this particular success path. Right. Option B, which is create that product first and then building your audience as you go. And it's seven steps. I won't go into all the steps in detail, but let me just give you an idea of what this is about. The step one is to define your best product, topic and target market. And I have a free cheat sheet that will really help you with that and you'll find it here on the show notes page@b2b launcher.com episode 1, 3, 8. I encourage you to download that. Check it out. It walks you through a multi step process that I use for uncovering what your best product, topic and target market are going to be. Number two, validate your idea and build a starter list. So you'll have some ideas. You'll narrow it down to one, but then you need to validate it. You need to make sure to a certain extent you're not going to do heavy market research or anything like that, that this is something that your ideal audience would want to know more about. Now as you're doing that, you build a very small, what I call starter list, okay? Just a handful of people. And there are ways you can actually build more than a handful, okay? But this is really an organic process. It's manual, it's not automated. You're not buying or renting a mailing list. Nothing crazy like that. Step three, you want to position, name and price your products. You want to start thinking about, okay, what do I want to create? What would be the price point? And let me give you a hint and we'll talk about this soon. Actually in the, in the next article next week I'm going to talk a little bit more about this. But you really want something in the middle of the pricing spectrum. You don't want something that's 299 or 999. You don't want a Kindle ebook, okay? I'm sure there are ways to make that happen, to build something and to generate income through that method. But what you want, and you also don't want something really high end. You know, you don't want to start coaching people for $2,000. You want something in the middle somewhere between 50 and $500. And you know what? The lower the better. It's easier to raise your price than it is to lower it. It depends on the topic, depends on the audience. But somewhere in that range, once you understand what you're going to create, you want to go ahead and create that price product. Okay? Then you want to set up the rest of your technology. Notice that step five is setting up the rest of your technology. Not number one, like so many people believe and so many others are teaching, okay? That can quickly get in your way. I want you to create your Asset first. Once you have that asset created and in the bag, you know you have something valuable. So don't get stuck in the technology. Wait till step five. Step six, launch the product to that initial list, what I call your hot list, and then seven, iterate build on that foundation, get feedback, find out what you could do to make it better. Again, we're trying to create and launch a minimum viable product. Get market feedback, adjust course correct and get a different version out there. So again, the key is to iterate. You want to focus on creating just one info product to start. You're not trying to build an empire, okay? Work on doing the best job you can on just that one product. Get it right, get it out there, get feedback and refine it to make it better. In fact, don't even worry at first about setting up your technology, your blog, or any of the other assets you think you'll need to get started. That's why that's again, all the way down to step number five, because that's a common and costly mistake. Instead, focus all your time, all your attention on creating that first info product and getting it right. Once you have that first product in the bag, you have something that's worth something, okay? If you instead spend too much time on your technology or any of the other items that you think you'll need, I'm telling you, you're going to encounter obstacles that will cause you to quit early way before you've created that asset. So don't let that happen to you. I think in Western society, we're just so conditioned for instant gratification. You know, if an app takes more than two seconds to refresh, we get frustrated. We have to wait in line at the grocery store for longer than three minutes. We pitch a fit. I get it, okay? I get frustrated too. But building a viable and consistently profitable info product business takes time. It takes a good amount of work. And even if you don't really want to treat it as a business, you're thinking more of a secondary income stream. It's the same thing. It takes time. This is not going to happen overnight, despite what all the shysters out there are saying. So don't fall for claims about four hour work weeks, five minute work days during your first year. It's gonna be work. It's definitely going to be work. And you're gonna question whether or not it's worth doing this. You know, I've rarely seen an overnight success. I tell people I'm a 15 year overnight success. You're not going to wake up one day and find that you've mysteriously made $88,631 while you slept, or while you sipped Chianti and ate fava beans writing poetry under the Tuscan sun. Okay, you might get there one day, and that's certainly happened in the past, but it's just not going to happen in your first year. But if you're looking for a way to develop a solid and reliable income stream, something that can take again some of that pressure off your client work, something that can help you do maybe some other things like help you pay for your kids college tuition, or make up for shortfalls in your retirement income, or finance a couple of really nice family vacations every year, Creating and selling info products is a great option to consider, and as a writer or copywriter, you have a huge advantage over everyone else. I know so many other info product creators who don't have that writing ability. They have to hire somebody to do that or they do it on their own and they don't get the results they could be getting if they had that skill. You already have that and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that. You would normally have to pay a lot of money for that. So you know this is a great way to leverage that skill. You already know how to create, write great copy, or great content. And even if you're not a copywriter, but you are a writer, you know how to organize information and you could probably teach it very, very well. So if you'd like to create that secondary income stream for yourself, I'm about to teach a few ambitious writers how to create and launch a successful info product. Their first info product. If you'd like to join us, send me an email ed2b launcher.com put info products in the subject line and I'll reply to you with all the details. So that's it for today. Again, this has been Ed Gandia. Thanks for listening. I hope you found this episode helpful and I hope you have an awesome day. Take care.

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