#145: Conversational Copywriting with Nick Usborne

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there.

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. You can find detailed show notes to this episode@b2b launcher.com episode 145. Those notes include a summary of our discussion here, as well as links to resources mentioned during the show. So I recently had Joanna Wieb on the show to talk about writing copy that better connects with your audience, and I just couldn't resist. I wanted to kind of continue that conversation because I know it's helpful for so many of us. And today we're doing that with my colleague, Nick Osborne. Nick is a real pro. He's been doing this for a long time, and he's written copy for some of the world's biggest brands, including Citibank, Apple, Chrysler, MSN.com, the New York Times, WebEx, the US Navy, and others. So, yeah, he's the real deal. He's been around the block. He knows what he's doing. And he attributes most of his success to a copywriting approach he recently defined as conversational copywriting. Now, it's not what you think. I know when I first heard Nick talk about that, I immediately thought he was referring to the write like you talk advice that we've all learned in copywriting books and courses. But, you know, there's some element to that. And as you're going to soon find out, it's much bigger than that idea. And in this chat, he's going to get deeper into this. He's going to explain what this approach is all about and how you can adopt it to write more persuasive and effective copy for clients. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Nick Osborne. Nick, welcome. It's great to have you here.

Well, thank you. It's an honor to be included. Appreciate it.

Well, the honor is mine, my friend, because I've been following your stuff for a long, long time. And in fact, you've been at this game for a long. And I'm curious how you got started. How did you start copywriting? Where, you know, where were you professionally? Why? When did you go out on your own?

Where was I? I wasn't anywhere professionally. You want the origin story? Okay, so my dad gently turfed me out of a house. I was. I Think I was about 20, 21 years old. And he gently suggested I go up to London. I was living in England, I'm English by birth. He said, go and get a job. And he said, come back when you've come back and tell us about it when you got a job. So I was like, fine, whatever, and went up and stayed in a house with a friend of mine. Actually, there are about five people living in the house. So I got the mattress on the floor upstairs and I had no job, but they did. And one of them had this. We were just talking over breakfast on a Sunday or whatever, and this guy said, I work in advertising. And I said, I had no idea what that was. I thought companies made their own advertisements. I didn't realize there was such a thing as an advertising agency completely. I had no business or. I mean, I hadn't been to university. I had, you know, I had high school and that was it. High school followed by a lot of messing around. And so I said, well, is it fun, the advertising agency thing? And he said, sure it is. It's a riot. And it was back, but so I said, fine. They all went off to work. On Monday morning, I pulled out the yellow pages. I wrote to 20 ad agencies in London because there were a lot back then and they were all started with a, B or C, got three interviews, one job offer and took it. And that was it. It was accidental And I kind of. So now I had a job and I could go home and tell my mum and dad about it. And in the agency, they had no idea what to do with me. So they moved me around all the different departments, like media and Production and finally to Creative. And they said, well, are you a designer or are you a writer? And I was like, well, I don't know, because I, you know, I'd liked. I'd enjoyed writing, but also I spent a year at art college, so I had some art background too. Anyway, it turned out after a little while that it. I was a copywriter and I loved it and just dove straight in. And that's what I've been doing for the last 38 years.

Wow. Wow. Now, I'm curious, how was your training back then? You know, there wasn't like a formal training program. Right. It's School of Knox on the job training. How did a lot of that come about?

It was. Yeah, there were no, Certainly no courses. There was like. I think I've read one book on copywriting back then, the Craft of Copywriting. Alistair Crumpton or Compton. Excellent book. Mainly I just found work that I really admired. I found, you know, the work of copywriters I really admired, and I emulated them. You know, to begin with, I, you know, I wanted to be like this copywriter or that copywriter. So I'd take their work, I'd study it, I kind of write it out longhand, so I learned that way. And then just by experience, just client after client after client.

You've done a lot in B2C and of course in B2B. But I'm curious, what is your favorite type of copywriting project to work on and why?

Ooh, I'm not sure I have a favorite type of writing. I have a favorite kind of gig, and that is, I like bigger, longer, deeper jobs as opposed to kind of quick jobs. So if it's something big, like, hey, Nick, will you write our newsletter for the next five years? Or hey, Nick, will you rewrite 20 pages on her website? Or, you know, if it's something I can really get my teeth into and build up an interesting relationship with that client, I much prefer that kind of engagement. I'm not, hey, I've taken lots of short term gigs like Nick, write these three emails or Nick, write this, you know, one sales page or whatever. And you know, it can be good. But, but I, I don't know, I'm always happier when I'm kind of really immersing myself a bit more deeply into something.

Now. Was, was there one particular client that you remember, like looking back at your career thinking, wow, this is. I, I think I'm going to do this forever. You know, is there a particular client or a gig? Do, do you recall when, when you knew this is going to be the way you're going to make a living for the rest of your life?

I think no, I don't think a particular client of gig. I do know that right at the very early days, like so just a bit of backstory, like when I became a copywriter back in 1979 and I did a few jobs and my bosses were delighted and everyone said, oh, you're good, you're so good, you're so good. And they gave me pay rises. And then people tried to headhunt me and I got more pay rises. That was the first time in my life that I'd ever really been good at something. I was always that kid at school where people said, well, he seems to have some potential, but we have no idea what to do with him. This was the first time in my life people turned around and said, hey, you're really good, you're highly valued, we want to give you more money, we want to steal you for our ad agency stuff. So that in a sense is why I fell in love with it, because it just felt so good to be good at something and to be valued at something. So it just turned my life around completely. So in a sense it really wasn't down to individual projects or clients. It was just down to that wonderful sense of oh my goodness, I'm good at something.

That is a good feeling. Especially if you've been searching for that thing for a while.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now you've recently been writing and talking a lot about this idea of conversational copywriting. And I want to dive deeper into that because I find this very intriguing and such a simple concept, but so needed right now. Can you explain what you mean by conversational copywriting and why it's so important today?

Sure. Hey, well, I'm really glad to hear that you find it interesting too, because I just love this stuff. So. All right, so a little bit of context. So this is going back to my own history, I guess before the web is that media were one way they were, it was broadcast media. You put an ad on a TV show and it's not like the audience could talk back. This is a one way broadcast medium. So you know, if you watch tv, you were interrupted by commercials, right? If you're listening to your favorite music on radio, you were interrupted all the time by these one way broadcast commercials. On radio, print, all these one way broadcast media were all about pushing a message out and interrupting you, whether you're watching a show or listening to music or reading an article or whatever. And because this was interruption marketing, they had to push kind of hard. They had to be pretty loud because it wasn't entirely welcome. You know, actually I'd far rather watch the TV show than have these ads all the time. So advertising, traditional advertising, traditional copywriting grew up in this kind of push mentality and push hard mentality. Then along comes the web. And the web is absolutely not like that. It's not a broadcast medium, it's not a one way medium, it's a multi way medium. And now particularly with like the rise of social media, the rise of mobile, it is getting more and more conversational. So when a company steps into a conversation online and they do the old school broadcast push, we don't like it. People don't like it. Consumers, listeners, readers, participants online don't like it. So over the last couple of years, We've seen worldwide 600 million people install ad blockers in their browsers. People filter their emails more and more aggressively. They love the fact that in Gmail, Gmail will put the promotional stuff off into another folder so they don't have to bother with it. People don't like that push interruption online because it's not a broadcast medium, it's a multi way, two way medium. So what you want to do within if you're going to be online is not push. You don't want to interrupt the conversation, you want to join the conversation. And you join the conversation with a kind of more respectful, inclusive, conversational mindset and style of writing. If you can enter the conversation without interrupting it, you're going to do a much better job of engaging with your prospects and your customers. And there's a ton of data out there that'll tell you that if you engage more deeply with prospects and customers, they're more likely to buy, they're more likely to spend more, they're more likely to buy again, and they're more likely to tell their friends or colleagues about you. So, I mean, I think the basic case for conversational copywriting is really, really compelling. And it's something. It's kind of weird. I was telling someone else about this a few days ago and it's like this has always been where my head has been at as a copywriter. And it's only relatively recently that I've put this name to it. Conversational copywriting. I've always been a conversational copywriter. I just never really put a name to it before.

Now what I'm hearing is this. This is really not just about a tone or a style. Right. Because many of us were taught, hey, your copy needs to be conversational. But when we heard that, at least I took it to mean, hey, that this, it's just flow. It should feel like you're talking to someone. I think what I'm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing is, yes, there is that, but it goes deeper than that. It's really broader and deeper.

Exactly right. So yes, there is that. There is a conversational way of writing, but it's also more structural in terms of your marketing. It's conversational marketing as well as conversational copywriting. It's a mindset. It's a belief that as a business you will do better by joining a conversation rather than interrupting a conversation. Interrupting conversation is. It irritates people and it costs a lot of money because you have to keep doing it more and more and more and more. And more because people don't really like it and they stop, you know, they tune you out. So really, yes, it is a mindset. It's not just about how you write, but it's about what you write and how you choose to enter those conversations, how you choose to contribute to them.

And this makes perfect sense. I'm nodding my head here, but I'm curious if you could share maybe some ideas and some tips and some practices that we as copywriters can use to not just write more conversational copy, but be more conversational in our approach. Can you maybe share a few ideas that people could put into practice?

Well, I guess the first thing, and maybe some of us have heard this from our, from our therapists, is become a better listener. Old school broadcasting, broadcast advertising, it wasn't about listening. Conversational copywriting is about listening. And it's exactly the same. Hey, if you're at a party, you're in a backyard barbecue, and you're out there, you're not just talking at people, you're listening. It's a conversation. It's back and forth. So that, I think, is one of the keys to all of this is to learn how to listen. So immerse yourself in the conversation that is taking place between your within your audience, your prospects, and your customers. What are they talking about? What do they care about? What language do they use? What terms do they use? I've often been amazed by the fact that I'll go into a meeting and I'll listen to, or I'll be on a Skype meeting or something. I'll listen to a whole bunch of people in a business using terms and phrases that are super familiar to them internally. They then put that into, into their marketing materials without even thinking about whether those same terms and phrases are actually used by their prospects. And very often they're not. So, yeah, become a better listener. Also think about how you communicate. What is your mindset? Are you trying to talk? Are you trying to push someone into changing their belief? Or are you trying to engage them in a conversation and actually kind of, I don't know, like, share. Share what you have to offer, the value of what you have to offer. So one of the things, and this goes back to just how to write, is to do that. You know, the kitchen table test. How would you, if it's B2C, how would you speak to that prospect over the kitchen table? If you were looking at them in the eye, what kind of language would you use? It's probably not going to be you're not going to try and sound like a used car salesperson. You're not going to be full of business jargon. You're going to talk person to person and you're going to listen as well. If you're in B2B, think about how you might try to persuade people in a meeting. Maybe it's a presentation, maybe it's a discussion, whatever it is, how would you persuade people? How would you phrase things if you want to? If you're not in the mindset of trying to force or push people into agreeing with you, how would you engage with them in conversation in a way that was persuasive and was going to work for you? And even within the meeting, let's say. I mean, I've been so many meetings and presentations for the actual. The actual real work gets done in the corridor, during a break, around the coffee machine. In between the formal bits of the meeting. What language would you use there or what mindset would you use to persuade a colleague or a manager or a boss while you're standing at the. You're away from the formal structure of being a business person. The next thing I would say is, and this sounds very, very fundamental, but it's super important, is to let go of some old habits. Some of us were trained to write at school and university, and we have this kind of academic writing habit, which is it's not conversational. And sometimes business writing is full of jargon. It's about communicating within a particular tribe of colleagues, et cetera. So you got to let go some of those old habits. And if you're a copywriter like me, who used to write offline, I have to lose all of those broadcast copywriting habits where I was talking at an audience. So a lot of this is about letting go. A lot of this is about listening. A lot of this is about looking at the language that your prospects use. And goodness knows, there's no excuse for not being able to do that. Just go to Facebook groups, go to any. Go to social media. Just see how people talk about your business, your products, your company. Look at the language, look at the attitudes, figure out what's important to them. That's how you hold a conversation and that's how you enter a conversation without interrupting. The next thing is, and again, this can really help is to think a little bit like a brand ambassador. So it's very hard for a business. It's impossible for a business to have a human, personal, conversational tone, because businesses don't talk. It's just people within businesses that talk. So if you think of like a brand ambassador, and I guess one of the best known is. Is Guy Kawasaki, he was a brand ambassador for Apple for a long time. So he became the individual voice that represented that brand. So have a look at how he did it. You can. Brand ambassadors used to be called. And there's this big overlap with celebrity endorsers like Roger Federer, the tennis player endorses Rolex watches. All right, really good match. It's a really good match there. So you have an individual. Now, whether it is Guy Kawasaki or Roger Federer, they can get into conversation. So listen to that. How does a brand translate into the spoken word, into conversation with someone like Guy Kawasaki or Roger Federer? How do they talk about the brands? And you begin to get a feel. Now, I know I'm not giving you like tips and tricks. You know what I mean? I don't think there are tips and tricks here.

These are mindset. These are mindset shifts which are important.

And that is, if you don't do that, you got nothing. So I think a lot of it is the mindset shift. And in a sense, it's easy for us as writers to make that shift because I think what we're talking about to some degree is self evident. Or maybe that's just me drinking my Kool Aid too much.

No, no, no, you're right, you're right. It has to start there. But let's face it, Nick, you know, this is. Many of us have been taught these things. I think the problem is we ignore them because we're trying to get things done. And it just seems like maybe, maybe listening to that audience at a deeper level is. Is maybe we don't need to go there. We don't have the time. But you're saying, look, you can't just read a couple of things. You got to go as deep as possible. And in fact, you should even have some conversations with some people who would be in that target market, because that's like you said, that's where some of the magic happens when you least expect it. In the middle of conversation, the customer suddenly says something in a certain way that you've. It's just so beautiful that you wouldn't have thought of it yourself.

Right, right. So you find the language, you find. And like I say that the key here is how do I enter the conversation instead of interrupting the conversation? That is the magic. Because then we get into, like, if you're trying to persuade a client about this, now we get into the data because we. That point I made about engaged customers. There's a ton of data from companies like Gallup and a lot of other researchers that demonstrate that if you engage with a customer, they spend more, they spend more often, they tell more people about it, et cetera. You don't engage, you don't get a. You don't achieve engagement by shouting a sales message. You don't get engagement by talking full of jargon. You get engagement by touching someone, by getting into conversation, by them being able to feel your passion for something. I mean, I think I've been writing persuasively for my entire life, right? Adult life. But I think, I bet if you went back and you found out when was Nick, when was I the most persuasive? It's probably been in conversation with my teenage kids or with a friend, a close friend, or my spouse where I'm trying to persuade them that, oh, hey, let's go vacation here, or not here, no, I don't think you should drop out of school and here's why. And I'm probably, I've probably done the best selling in my life through passionately felt conversation.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. So one of the things that stumped me a bit when you were talking about engaging in conversation versus shouting a sales message is that that is a mindset thing. I mean, in many cases you're not going to have actual dialogue via email or in person with the prospect. But you're saying, look, put yourself in that situation, just pretend they're next to you, pretend that you're at the kitchen table. What would that conversation go like? And of course you're going to omit their responses because that's not part of the copy. But I'm starting to see how I might be able to apply that without necessarily writing a two way conversation.

Right?

Making it feel that way.

Have you ever read some copy that where it made you smile because like they're just somehow just kind of touched you just. Right? Oh yeah. It's like, yeah, and this is never when someone's pushing hard as a copywriter, it's never the hard sell. It's where they say something that paints a picture in your own life where you think, oh yeah, something like that. All right, so now I'm entering into some kind of. I've used a tone, I've used an approach and a mindset where I'm not opening the gate with a hard sell. Trying to change your mind, persuade you. I'm just saying, hey, feel this, imagine this, remember this. And now let's talk about how to make this better or whatever. So yeah, in my language, in my tone, in my pace, everything you can tell whether I'm trying to push or whether I'm trying to share.

One of the things that I've done. And I'm not sure how many people do this, but especially when I'm stuck with some copy, I will get out of my regular environment. So I'll go to the patio if the weather's nice, or I'll go to a coffee shop. In many cases I'll just go for a drive and I'll use the voice memo in my phone. And what that does is it forces me to talk it out a little bit differently outside of my environment and while I'm doing something else. Because something about when you're driving, right, it forces you to use a different part of your brain for this kind of work. And some of my best copy has actually been written, so to speak, on the highway while I'm talking it through because I have to net it out in a more conversational, simpler way. Have you ever found yourself doing things like that?

I do the same with on my bicycle and I actually have a notepad. There's something for me about hand and pencil and paper that works. And sometimes I'll go cycling and I go cycling for two hours and I'll stop every five minutes to write something and I can get a week's work done like in a two hour cycle ride. So you're right. And I'm not saying all this is easy because on the one hand you got to kind of forget a lot of what you learned about being a copywriter, what it means, how to open, how to close and all that good stuff. But at the same time, you don't completely forget it. The sales structure is still there. You're still opening, you're still closing, you still want to close the sale. You're just doing it in a more respectful way. It's the kind of anti hype rather than it being adversarial. It's no longer you against the reader to say, I know that person doesn't want to pull out their wallet, but I'm going to make them. Instead of being adversarial, you're getting to the place where it's like, hey, you know what? Absolutely. I just want this thing. I don't even need to read any further. Just where's the buy button? I want it. That's what you're looking for is you've made a friend, you've engaged with someone you're not adversarial, you're not trying to push them into a sale.

I think that's what comes out of getting out of your environment like you just described. Right. It forces you to think about having a real conversation. Something about being behind that keyboard. You feel like you're supposed to be on task and doing it a certain way and it just doesn't work. Many times now it reminds me, so the brilliant marketer by the name of Dean Jackson out there, and he says that the best copy, and he should have said conversational copy, the best copy is the copy that looks like you didn't spend any time writing. So it just looks so effortless, but you have to spend so much time in working on it in order for it to not look like you spent a lot of time writing it, if that makes sense.

It reminds me of the wonderful Dolly Parton quote, you have no idea how much it costs to look this cheap. It's true with conversation, with copywriting, you have no idea how hard I had to work to make this seem effortless.

That's a good way of thinking about, should come across that way. Which is why many times I like to put copy away for a couple of days because I need to look at it fresh. That's the only way.

And also some of the stuff that all of us taught and have taught along the way, you know, stuff like read out your copy online. Read it out loud.

Out loud? Yes.

Because sometimes you'll stumble or you'll think, man, I'd never say it like that. I'd never sound like that. I'd never use that word. I'd never use. If I was talking, I'd never talk in a 25 word sentence. That's ridiculous. So that really can help. I'm not saying the conversational copy is exactly the same as spoken language. It's not. It's tighter and more kind of structured than that. But it should feel like spoken language. It should feel like spoken conversation.

Yes. Good tip there. Now, I'm wondering, because I know you do a lot of web copywriting, and I'm wondering if there are any concerns, especially clients concerns, regarding this type of approach and its impact on SEO, or does it even matter?

Well, you're right. I have had that pushback from companies saying, oh, hey, what you're talking about just wouldn't work for SEO. Because we have these, you know, we have this large collection on the Excel spreadsheet of all these different phrases, et cetera, and they don't lend themselves to your kind of conversational approach. And then I kind of get into conversation with them because I say, well, do you realize that we're fast approaching the point where over 50% of all searches are done with voice? People are talking to Apple, Siri or their Google Assistant or Microsoft's Cortana, or they're calling across the room to their Amazon Alexa enabled device device, and they are doing their searches, they're asking their questions with voice. And this is really interesting because we are. We're just at the juncture now where almost half the people online are using voice search every day. And the amount of people doing voice search and the amount of voice search they do is growing at a much faster rate than when you type stuff in. So the companies that push back at me, their collection of keywords and phrases and everything they're getting from keyword research tools, is all based on typed search, which tends to be. We kind of abbreviate what we're searching for. Like, you know, cheap vacation Cancun. All right? That's how we type a query. If we're talking to Siri, we're saying, hey, Siri, can you give me some help with finding cheap vacations in Cancun? We tend to speak in a whole sentence with spoken search. So, in fact, if you write your content pages and your copy pages now in conversational language is actually a much better match for voice search optimization. So this is kind of weird because in a sense, when I talk about conversational copywriting, I almost feel like I'm talking about something that's been around forever. But it's also like the way of the future, in a sense, because it's the perfect match for the way search is going to. Because it's conversational in its tone. It's the perfect match for the way people. The phrases and terms people use when they're talking to their Google Assistant or Amazon Echo. That's the conversation that I then have with them, I think, well, funny you should ask that because.

Well, you're right. So what that's going to do, Nick, is just going to push things further in that direction at a faster pace, I think. So that only helps that cause. Now I'm curious, in that same vein, how do you. Not in terms of SEO, but other aspects of this. How do you deal with clients who maybe they're reviewing your copy? You think you've done a pretty amazing job of keeping it conversational, and it's really authentic. It's really well aligned with what the audience is already the conversation they're already having in their heads. Right, but you're getting pushback because it feels a bit too casual for them or whatever. But you're confident that you're hitting the mark. How do you address that? How do you have that conversation with a client who's maybe not sophisticated enough to understand what we've been talking about here?

Well, first of all, if I'd left that conversation to when I presented the copy, then I'd have made a big mistake. I'd have that conversation before I wrote the copy. I'd talk to them about the benefits of conversational copywriting. I would ask them where and how comfortable they would feel. There's no point in me trying to fight with a client over this. And probably a starting point, if I was working with a client who said, hey, I hear what you're saying, Nick, but, man, we really do have a particular way of doing stuff here. I might say to them, well, you know what? Here's an easy place to start. Let's start with social media, because that really is conversational. I don't think you'll get too much argument even internally over that.

Oh, gosh, yes.

Or then I could say, after that, I could say, you know what? Social media, that kind of worked for us. We found a bit of a conversational voice for your company that works. And your guys seem to be comfortable with. Let's roll this out into some of your email, because that's kind of personal. That's going into people's inbox. Let's make your email a bit more conversational. So I would, if I was. If I felt the client was nervous about it, I'd be respectful of that. I'm not there to force a business to do this. I believe absolutely it's the right way for them to go. But I'll help them. I'll help them. I'll say, start with social media, go into email. Then we'll perhaps go to newsletters. And then I'll say, you know what, there's probably some content pages on your website where we could take. Now that we really are beginning to find this voice for your business that is not off brand, but is still getting more conversational. Let's roll this out into some other areas. So I think that's the way to go with most clients. I think, in fact, it would be unusual to find a client who just says, okay, I'm all in. Rewrite everything.

I would be worried.

Yeah, I'd be a little worried for the client. So, yeah, absolutely. There are ways in. And you Just go in step by step. One of the really high value things you're offering is this process of discovering what a business's or a brand's conversational voice sounds like. If you can find that for them, you have brought fantastic value to that company. It's like, oh my, I had no idea that we had a voice that could still represent our brand, but a voice that we can actually speak with that is conversational in tone, where we can engage with people now through social media and email and newsletters, et cetera, et cetera.

So you have a course on this very topic of conversational copywriting. Why don't you tell us a bit about that and where listeners who are interested in learning more about it can check it out? Sure.

Okay. Yeah. Well, it's a kind of video based course and by that there's a bit of talking head videos, but mainly it's kind of PowerPoint with me walking through all different aspects of conversational copywriting. So it's like PowerPoint with audio. And these are kind of, I don't know, 8, 10, 15 minute videos. There are 21 different lectures in this video format. And I also do a whole bunch of homework assignments because I kind of believe in learning through doing, learning through engagement. So there's homework assignments and of course we have a, we have a Facebook group, a private Facebook group, so we can actually share the homework and we can interact and we can. And that's the best part because again, within the Facebook group, I actually get to listen as well as to teach. And the more I can listen to the people taking the course, the more I can improve it because I'm constantly adding to the course and upgrading the course. So yeah, it's teaching everything I'm talking about today, it's talking about how to write more conversation, how to change your mindset, how to write emails, web pages, social media, all the different kinds of digital marketing. You get to come across writing tasks, you'll come across how to do this in a conversational tone that actually works. And like I said, I think in the sense that some of the biggest value here lies in the assignments and in the Facebook group where we'll get to kind of learn from one another and interact.

And where can we learn more about it? Where can I send folks?

Just go to conversational copywriting.com.

Wow, there you go. Great URL. Well, and I like your conversational copywriting approach to refining the course. That's very, very smart of you.

Oh, and I don't do that just because I think I should do it. I do it because it just is fantastic. I mean, honestly, the stuff that I have learned through interacting with all the students who are taking this course is like I kind of slapped myself in the frozen thought, my goodness, why didn't I think of that before? So I go back and I add a piece of bonus material at a lecture or change your lecture. So yeah, it's wonderful, wonderful experience.

Awesome. We'll make sure to include that link in the show notes. And before we sign off, Nick, where can listeners check you out as well and connect with you online?

Well, there's so that's my conversational copywriting site. The site I've had forever Online is just nickasborne.com so people can. That's where you'll find my about page and links to all my social media channels. And hey anyone and everyone's always welcome to just email me@nicknickasborne.com Fantastic.

Well, Nick, really enjoyed this conversation. Enlightening and such an important topic. Thanks for coming on, my friend.

Well, thank you very much for inviting me. I really appreciate it.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more@b2b launcher.com.

All the students who are taking this course is like I kind of slap myself in the frozen oh my goodness, why didn't I think of that before? So I go back and I add a bone piece of bonus material at a lecture or change a lecture. So yeah, it's wonderful, wonderful experience.

Awesome. We'll make sure to include that link in the show notes. And before we sign off, Nick, where can listeners check you out as well and connect with you online?

Well, there's so that's my conversational copywriting site. The site I've had forever online is just nickasborne.com so people can that's where you'll find my about page and links to all my social media channels. And hey anyone and everyone's always welcome to just email me@nicknickasborne.com Fantastic.

Well, Nick really enjoyed this conversation. Enlightening and such an important topic. Thanks for coming on, my friend.

Well, thank you very much for inviting me. I really appreciate it.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.