#151: Jared Kessler on ‘Upleveling’ Your Copywriting Business

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better client. You can find detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com episode 151 and those notes include a summary of our discussion here as well as links to resources mentioned during the show. Now, before we get to this week's episode, I wanted to let you know that I'm about to start coaching a small group of established writers and copywriters. So if you're already earning somewhere between 2,000 to $7,000 a month or the part time equivalent, we're going to focus on doubling your income or getting more free time without sacrificing your income or a combination of both of those factors. If you'd like to join us, just send me an email@edbloncher.com, put 2x in the subject line and I'll reply to you with all the details. And that's a good segue into our episode this week because today we're going to talk about how to up level your copywriting or writing business. I found that if you're already earning somewhere between two to seven thousand dollars a month consistently as a writer or copywriter, doubling that income is not as hard as you think. I've been saying that for years, but today's interview I think is just further proof of that. Today you're going to hear from a very successful copywriter by the name of Jared Kessler who's going to share how he's built his business so quickly. Jared, again, is proof that growth doesn't have to be linear. He's been a copywriter for about 10 years, but he's a relatively new freelancer. He just launched his freelance business a couple of years ago. And his story of how he's been able to grow his income fast is a great example of why earning more and many times way more than you currently are is not as big a challenge. And as he might be thinking, and I'll give you a quick hint, it's not about effort as much as it is about a shift in strategy. So I hope you enjoy my conversation today with Jared Kessler. Jared, welcome to the show. Great to have you here.

Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat about all this fun stuff.

I'm excited as well, and I. We're going to be getting a little bit deeper into your business here, but I think a good place to start for us is with some background. So, one, why don't you tell us a bit about your copywriting business, including the type of work you do, the types of clients you like to work with, and also how long you've been on your own.

Yeah, for sure. So I started in and around, I want to say around 2008, and it was kind of like, I would guess it's pretty similar to how a lot of other copywriters got started. You kind of fall into it. Um, but I think for me, you know, prior to that, I had worked so many different jobs and so many different things that I just, you know, I ran out of things that didn't work. And what had happened was, at the time, I was working like, you know, a regular job. I had blogging was, I think, kind of, you know, kind of starting to get popular. And I kind of started diving into that a little bit. Had met a friend who was also working at something similar, blogging, and he made the leap from job to doing that full time. And I was really fascinated with that. And when he had done that, I had asked him, I said, well, how do you get like, you know, we're talking about building a blog with a few thousand followers, and, I don't know, it was like 5, 10,000 followers. And, you know, I'd asked him, I'm like, how did you make that leap? So he gave me, after a few conversations, few discussions, gave me a book called the Copywriter's Manual. And in that time and where I was and reading that, I had no clue what copywriting was. I was into music. I was a struggling artist, Worked like two, three jobs. I was trying to pay off my debt. So when he gave me this book, I was like, it was the weirdest kind of feeling in that it was something that I felt like I was meant to do and however cheesy and, you know, this ray of light shining down, you know, and it was this really crazy feeling because for me, you know, I just couldn't find a way to actually make a living doing what I loved. So I had a degree in psychology, Grew up with nine, five parents and all that fun stuff. And it wound up being a perfect mix of psychology and understanding people and my love of creative writing, which I was also doing music. So from about 2008, 2010, I started really getting into Brian Clark's the copy blogger, a lot of different blogs and started kind of like launching little programs here and there, doing my mailing list. And I just started taking on some clients where people came to me. And you know, I always say that there's this idea that, you know, I didn't really choose copywriting, it chose me. And you know, I always look at things like, you know, is it for me, like did it match who I kind of was? Like I grew up writing in cafes and all this other stuff. But it seemed like the perfect match for having a love of creative writing, a love of creativity and being able to use this psychology degree which I couldn't use before. Fast forward about two years after that and I got my first shot. I really wanted to use this kind of springboard of this learning of just leveraging stuff that was working for me and taking on smaller clients, building my portfolio, doing mock ads. And what I, what, what I had wound up doing was my end goal was to get into, you know, an ad firm. I wanted to write copy for bigger brands and stuff like that because I loved how it was being talked about. I didn't exactly know what it was. So there was a lot of like placement agencies called like creative circle, we have 24 7. And they got me into an ad firm called Draft fcb. Draft fcb. One of their clients was Hewlett Packard. So I wound up writing a lot of copy for the biggest brands in the world. Hewlett Packard, but on the B2B side. So it's really fascinating. They had a program called Purchase Edge which is getting people to use their points redeemable for like free ink or printers. And also their anti counterfeit division which was super fascinating and interesting because you don't understand like how, how much of a big thing this whole anti Counterfeit Inc. Is all over the world. It really opened my eyes up to a lot of stuff back then in terms of the process of how, you know, copy and art, art and copy work together. From there I leveraged a lot of my copywriting skills and kind of, you know, know how into other ad firms writing copy for T mobile on the B2C. B2B world, leveraging that and you know, going on a lot of different ad firms doing stuff for Banner Bank, Pemco, you know, a lot of different stuff. And then it came to about 2016 and I was approached by the Struck Malplace. I'm not going to mention names and stuff like that. I mean people can find out. I don't like really mentioning names But I was offered a permanent part time kind of gig, right? And it was 20 hours a week. I was getting paid really good money, but at the same time I was doing it was kind of a win win where they didn't have to pay me a huge salary, but they could get work that they needed to help build their client list and make their clients happy and stuff like that. So after your year of that I was in 2016, I basically, they lost the T mobile side OR T Mobile B2B side. And I basically, from about January to maybe, I basically sat around and like, do I even want to do this anymore? I mean, I think like I was in that time I was getting approached by a lot of people because what has happened was I built up my SEO. I'm very much like if people were looking for copywriter Seattle or Seattle copywriter, I've never paid for any SEO stuff, but because I've been doing it for a bit, I always popped up number one. So people would ask me like, hey, really like your site. You know, are you available? I have this copywriting thing. I've been really fortunate in that, that I've really never had to like, you know, look I guess that much for work. And there were times where I did, but most, most of the time people kind of came to me. So in that time I said, I said no a lot, you know, and when you're working on site at a place, you know, it's just you usually have three, three to five projects that you're working on. At the time when that came to me in January of 2016, and in that time between January and May, I started thinking about, do I want to do this, not do this. People approached me and I started saying yes. A bigger client came to me. I had the experience underneath my belt. I felt comfortable enough to charge an asset 5, 10 grand a project because I what was going on in the ad world, I think doing newsletters for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for campaigns. A bigger client came to me, said $10,000 for this and they said, well, how about 5,000 for this and if it goes good, we'll do the other thing and we'll give you another 5000. Cool. Awesome. Worked out well. And I thought in the back of my head was, okay, now it's worth it for me to continue just doing this. So officially I'm coming up on my second year of business doing this kind of full time, just as me more of a business, not really a freelancer. And it's been and hopefully I didn't lose people on that crazy kind of weird story, but that's about it. But I think it's important I want to share a lot of the little tidbits because I don't know, hopefully there's some learning lessons throughout that.

Yeah. And we'll dig deeper into some of this. I think it's fascinating that you're able to combine your talents into this career, into this business. And I mean, compared to many other people that I talk with, your ascension was fairly quick. And it sounds like you really have a knack for a lot of the stuff. I'm sure your art background, musical background in psychology all kind of gave you a great foundation for it all. And I'm just curious, in terms of today, what types of clients do you typically work with or do you like to work with?

So it's interesting and I thought about this and there's really three, three types of clients that I, that I kind of work with and I take on, you know, I only in this year and a half, I've only had about 12 or so clients, you know, direct to me. But I've done pretty well. And those and, and those have been like, you know, higher, I guess, higher caliber kind of business owners, like consultants or tech guys, which, which would be kind of like one somebody that earns like, you know, probably like $150,000 or more like a guy from Microsoft came to me, hey, I got this consulting thing. Great, cool. The Other one are CMOs and CEOs that have an agency but things are just too slow. So they need someone that kind of have. I say, you know, I'm an agency level copywriter without all the agency level headaches. So they can come to me where I could provide them with what they need without having to go to their agency. The other one are smaller boutique ad firms which are a ton smaller boutique design firms that don't have a copywriter on site. Right before this, a gentleman I'd reached out to, I'm just going to say, for example, XYZ Creative. It was just online when I thought you were calling. It was this guy said, hey, I have this thing, a project. You reach out to me, I have some copywriting work may need help with and they're people that don't have copywriters on staff. Their design, maybe they're more design centric. Maybe they're just, I don't know, they're probably like a 5 to 10 person design team and they have clients that come to them and Say, hey, we have this. Can you do it? Of course they say yes. And then they reach out to me where they don't have to have a copywriter on staff, but they still have a need and they still want to have it done right and accurately represent who they are. So far, those have been, those have been the three. It's been a pretty even. It's been a pretty even weight on that.

No, that's a great mix. In fact, that, that leads me to my next question, which is it's obvious that you've decided to position yourself as a premium service provider. And you did that from the, from the very start of your business, from what I could tell. And I'm curious to hear about.

That.

Decision, why you made that decision, and also how your self confidence has played a role in all of this. Because I'm fascinated by this, this whole issue of self confidence in what we've got to work with and how we can use that, how we can leverage that confidence to put ourselves out there to position ourselves a certain way.

Yeah. So this is my third iteration of my website. My first. And I look at it like this, right? At first, I had. My first copywriting website was called the Kick Ass Copywriter. I consider myself the H and M of copywriters, right? So I was like the cool guy, but $35 an hour, really inexpensive cool stuff. My next iteration. So that was. I usually find after two to four years or so, it starts, I start to outgrow it and it's old. The second iteration, which I think was the one before, before this that you saw, I consider myself the Urban Outfitters of. And I don't know if you have it here. And people are like, what? Urban Outfitters is kind of like the cool, but it's a little bit expensive, right. It's like the $85 an hour guy that's kind of like, it's, he's still cool, but you're not gonna, you're not gonna find like $20, you know, dollar pair of jeans there, right. So I quickly outgrew that about two years after. And then after that, you know, we talked about this was about a two year process to get it where, where it was. I just felt like. So when you're, you know, some people got the fact that, you know, I'm charging 510 and I had a client that was $75,000 project. When you talk about certain pricing, the, the packaging has to match what it is that you're selling. It's like you, you know, you're not gonna. You can't go into, you know, to Old Navy and sell a $200 pair of jeans. It just doesn't work. That's why they have Old Navy, they have Gap, they have Banana Republic. And the same thing, like, I saw myself. What was happening was everybody saw myself as the Urban Outfitters of copywriters, and I felt like I was the Barneys New York. And what was happening was some people kind of got it, and a lot of people didn't. So I'm, like, charging 5, $10,000 for a project. They were like, yeah, okay. And other people like, oh, yeah, okay. But what was happening was there was just. I felt like a disconnect into who I really was now versus who I was seeing. So, you know, the reason why it did that is because the pricing wasn't matching what the look and feel of everything. Does that kind of. Does that kind of make sense?

Yeah, it does. And you've. So you iterated, too. So this is not for people who are listening. It's like, oh, my gosh, this guy is. Well, you started as the H and M, right?

Yeah.

And you've progressively moved up, but it sounds like you had already outgrown the current positioning that you had in terms of your website and what it was communicating 1, 100%.

And, you know, I think there's. There's those people, right? Because I play guitar. There's people that go and buy, like, a $3,000 Taylor or Martin guitar just, like, out of the gate. And then there's the people that, like, you know, practice for a few hours. They get good, then they get a $200 or upgrade from a $200 to a $500 guitar. They play another few years, then they join a band, they start recording, then they go to, like, $1,000. So, like, I don't buy in the philosophy that, like, anyone should just go out and buy, like, $5,000, $2,000 guitar. You know, I believe there's iterations of that and how serious. And, you know, and also, too, I'm. I'm very, like, I am very strategic in everything that I do. Like, very strategic. And I think that. I don't think people understand and know. That's why I'm kind of doing something called the copy process. And I need to educate people on the value of what copywriting really is and the thought process that goes underneath it. Because when people ask, people see a number, right? But unless people understand the value and they understand that the benefits outweigh the costs, you know, it just doesn't, it's, it's hard to communicate. But I do want to say this, that people that are struggling with charging, pricing and stuff like that, you have to understand is that when you know you can throw people off if you don't charge enough to like, that's, that's, you know, somebody once told me people, companies choose the least risky option. So if say Nike comes to you and it's like, hey, I have this, they would do like a national campaign or something like that. Probably not a case study, right? And say I really need someone new ideas and this or that you're going to say to the CMO of Nike, $500. They process that as like, you really don't know, like I can't use your service. Do you know what I mean? So I think you have to know what you bring to the table, how you could differentiate and position yourself, which I don't think is talked about enough. And really, like, what are you, how are you packaging yourself? And I don't see enough copywriters really paying attention to the design aspect of things. And I look at things like if you could take away every excuse for someone not hiring you, you right then I think it's a good thing. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I wanted to kind of go down that path and talk a little bit about positioning. Because you're right, it's not talked about enough. The people make assumptions. Copywriters are making assumptions about what clients are looking for, what they care about. So I'm curious to know how you set yourself apart from other copywriters. Tell us about how you're positioning yourself.

So you know when people contact me, right? And, and this is where the listening really comes in. Because what I've come into contact with are like four. And this is on my service page, right? And I, and this is what, what's kind of worked for me when I have a conversation with, with people. And, and what I really listen to when people actually hire me. I really listen to the reasons as to why they hire me. Because I want to know, so what of times is that I find I separated out into four categories, right? So when I talk with clients, I say, okay, there's four people that you could choose from. There's your cheap and scary. Those are your $35 an hour copywriters. You can find them on Craigslist. That's really, you know, if you're just starting out, you know, you don't have much money. Maybe that's a Good way to go. Maybe get your cousins, friends, aunt, I don't know, write it for you. And it costs nothing. But, but they're cheap. Good luck with being able to rely on them. Good luck with them even really being a copywriter. But that's available to you. The second part is experienced but average. And I see that a lot. Those are the. And I have nothing against these people. It's experienced but average. I call the English majors that are really great writers but don't understand like the thought process behind it aren't going to look at your Google Analytics and say, well, do you know most of the people that are going to your website are actually interested in working for you, not hiring for you. Then what do you do with that data? There are people that are just like writers and great. They don't understand the copywriting aspect. They don't understand, like, you know, if they come up with 10 different ideas and then give it to you and you run it through your legal team when it gets ripped to shreds, you know, how are they going to come up with another great idea that actually gets through legal and, you know, goes live. The third one I say is you have big, slow and outdated. I say, listen, you could hire an advertising agency that has a creative director, art director, project manager, account director, executive creative director and copywriter. If you have $50,000 to start going on millions of dollars, that's the way to go. I say I look at myself as an agency level copywriter without all the agency level headaches. Meaning I take care of the schedule. It's upfront in the contract. After we talk about a call, what I think certain things are going to take, we follow the schedule. I manage the schedule, I do the work. I look behind the scenes as of what's working or not just working. How do we leverage that into actual copy that works and if it doesn't, what do we need to do to change what that does? You know, from idea to conception to data to the research, from customer surveys. But more importantly, because there's a lot of brand strategists out there selling strategy. More importantly, knowing how to take that data and that research and leverage that to write the copy that talks to the audience in a way that actually does something. So that, that's kind of how I set, that's how I separated out when I get, when I get the opportunity. But I will tell you this, you know, I used to, you know, I found kind of a way to kind of like, you know, I don't just get on the phone with people. I try to find out originally before this news site, I would send them a form and a questionnaire that explained a lot of this. And I knew if they returned my questionnaire and I got them on the phone, it's like a done deal 9 out of 10 times. But I know what happens is that if they don't take the time to fill out the questionnaire and the questions, they're either one, shopping around which really or really not interested. And honestly, as a business, I don't really have time for that. And I know that like I can't. Like there's some people that are very like I could sell anyone. But there's also times where it's like I just can't sell. You know, I don't buy into that theory where I could just sell anyone.

So you want them to be pre sold really before they're coming to you. So you want them to walk down this path. My impression is, hey, they've gone to your website, they get it. They've taken the time to fill out the questionnaire, which I see on your website is brilliant, by the way.

That's true. We can talk about.

Yeah, that's part of your intake process. And if they've done all these things, you just know statistically. Okay, I got somebody here who's got a very high probability of converting to a client.

Right, right.

So you got to get on the call to make sure that, you know, it's all is good.

You got to talk, we can talk about.

Yeah, that's part of your intake process. And if they've done all these things, you just know, scope, price and all that.

But. Right.

That's a great start. So that's a good point. Right. It's somebody who hasn't done that. You just know. I find that so many copywriters buy into this idea that everybody who inquires. My job is to convert them to a client. And that is not your job.

Yeah, you know, I just sent out a little thing that when your market is everyone, your marketing to, to no one or something like that, you know, we're not even. Even Walmart isn't for everyone. Do you know what I mean? Like they're not, you know, there's people that just can't stand Walmart. Nordstrom, people don't like Nordstrom, you know, so it's no different with a small business. And you know, and I think you have to stand firmly on that. And I think, you know, even a new thing, I think for me and it's not, you know, my website now, it's not very like as before. It's not very copy. Like, not so much copy heavy, but written persuasively. There's a lot of things that are really well thought out, but I think that you really have to just gauge your audience. I really feel like what I really like doing is really finding out and asking people and say, hey, we work together. But I'm curious, like, why did like, why did you hire me? You know, and what's the difference between, like, you, why did you hire me versus others? And you know, even before. Yeah, I mean, I listen to what I do is I seen like, you, why did you hire me versus others? And you know, even before, frequently. Yeah. I mean, I listen to what I do is. And I used to. I should get better. And this whole, like, this whole thing, you know, with When I say a creative copywriting studio for growing brands at bottom lines, where higher standards meet unique perspectives from beginning to end. Like, all of this stuff is basically, I found a common theme as to why people want to get out and why people hire me. And a lot of times it's because they need new and innovative ways about talking the same. Talking about the same old stuff. And I used to, I should, I should get better. And this whole, like, this whole thing, you know, with when I say a creative copywriting studio for growing brands at bottom lines, where higher standards meet unique perspectives from beginning to end. Like, all of this stuff is basically, I found a common theme as to why people and you know, I always look at things from a standpoint of it really comes down to standards and perspective. And what I mean by that is you bring a certain level of standards to whatever you do. You could cut your lawn, you could do whatever somebody says how you do anything is how you do everything. And I really believe you bring a certain level of standard to that. And we also bring a unique perspective. I think that's our experience, how we grew up. And so I always look at that and I always say, listen, I have a really high standard for how I operate. Like, I can't sleep at night knowing, like some word is off and somebody want to get out. Why people hire me. And a lot of times it's because they need change something and the pacing is off. Like, I don't know, I just can't sleep at night knowing something isn't. Is new and innovative ways about talking the same. Talking about the same old stuff. And you know, I always look at things from a standpoint of it really comes it right. But that's, that's just me. But I also think that there's a certain. I feel like there's a certain pricing that I have to have that meets that. You know, even look at my website now versus when I did before. I, like, I look at my website, I feel like I was down to standards and perspective. And what I mean by that is, you know, think Anything less than $5,000 feels right on this. And I think we just have to be. We just have to listen more as to, as to why that is. And yes, I think coming back to the original question is that, you know, I see certain things and I take a step back and I say, okay, these people are doing this like no other copywriter has. Like, I haven't seen any other copywriter that has called themselves a creative copywriting studio. Cool. Okay. That's a position I want to go. I see all these other copywriters that are doing like, you know, quite frankly, a lot of them are. Now you bring a certain level of standards, you know, add to whatever you do. You know, you could cut working for the Amazons and Microsoft. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. But you know, I look at what they're doing, your lawn, you could do whatever somebody says how you do anything is how you do everything. Um, and I really believe you bring a certain level of standard to that. Um, and we also bring a unique perspective and, and like it's all about content. And you know, I think like, well, you know, the last client that, you know, not the last client, but when I had a client hire me for $75,000 project, I really listened as to, you know, it was really important for her that I was cool. It was really important for her that like, they're very design centric. It was really important for that to look right. It was really important that I work with a lot of bigger brands. So a lot of that stuff really dictates what I do. And I think originally I used to send out questionnaires to my clients clients. And I still, if I have the opportunity, would love to do that. Because what you say, and here's a big disconnect, what you say you are and what other people say you are are two completely different things. And I really think, like, we have to pay attention to what it is that they're hiring you for. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Totally get it. Totally get it.

I do know with microdem, I think that's our experience, how we grew up. And so I always look at that. And I always say, listen, I have a really high standard for how I operate. Like, I can't sleep at night knowing, like, some word is off and somebody changed something and the pacing is off. I don't know, I just can't sleep at night knowing something isn't right. But that's just me. But I also think that there's a certain. I feel like there's a certain pricing that I have to have that meets that. Even though I look at my website now versus what I did before, I look at my website, I feel like I don't think Anything less than $5,000 feels right on this. And I think we just have to listen more as to. As to why that is. And yes, I think coming back to the original question is that, you know, I see certain things and I take a step back and I say, okay.

These people are doing coaching and training business. I pay attention to the unsolicited feedback that people give me because it's. It's amazing how many things I get back like that that I would have never thought of. Yeah. Somebody said the other day, you know, Ed, working with you, it's basically like cutting in line and getting ahead, you know, two, three years in your business overnight. Cutting in line, but legally.

Yeah.

So I've never thought of phrasing it like that. It's really cool. We're too close to our own stuff, so I think there's value in that. Now, just a quick side question. We don't need to go in this.

Like, no other copywriter has a. Like, I haven't seen any other copywriter that has called themselves a creative copywriting studio. Cool. Okay. That's a position I want to go. I see all these other copywriters that are doing, like, you know, quite frankly, a lot of them are now working for the Amazons and Microsoft. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, I look at what they're doing and, like, it's all about content. And, you know, I think, like, well, you know, the last client that, you know, not the last client, but when I had a client hire me for 75,000.

Deep into this. But I'm curious, you know, you're positioning yourself many times as, you know, this. This guy who comes out of the.

Project, I really listened as to, you know, it was really important for her.

That comes in and it's. It's very comprehensive. Yeah. What if you got a client who they.

I was cool. It was really important for her that, like, they're very Design, they get that.

And they value you, but they don't need a lot of that high touch, you know, project management and so forth. Is that a good fit for you still or. No?

It was really important for that to look right. It was really important that I work with a lot of bigger brands. So a lot of that stuff really dictates what, what I do. And I think originally I used to send out questionnaires to my clients clients and I still, you know, if I have the opportunity, would love to do that. Because what you say, and here's a big disconnect what you, you know, I, I recently, I. The fact, the past few months, I've recently had that where I tried to find out and I think this is a good learning lesson for a lot of people, you know, because I've had that and I thought, well, do I say you are and what other people say you are are two completely different things. Really. You know, sometimes people are like, hey, I need a copywriter, you know, whatever. And I had that and I said, and I really think, like we have to pay attention to what it is that they're hiring for you for. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Totally get it. Totally get it. I do know with my coaching and training business, I pay attention to the unsolicited feedback that people know to a.

Lot of that stuff. But what I found was, is that I told my wife, I said, I wonder if I could do something in a day to where they get to what they need. But I could charge say like 16.95.

Give me because it's, it's amazing how many things I get back like that that I would have never thought of.

Yeah.

Somebody said the other day, you know, Ed, working with you, it's basically like so where it's.

I always try to look for win win situations. So I redid a lady's website copy.

Cutting in line in getting ahead, you know, two, three years in your business overnight. Cutting in line. But legally, yeah. So I've never thought of phrasing it like that. It's really cool. We're too close.

It took me a day. She was super like, I'm talking about like those two, her own stuff.

So I think there's value in that. Now, just a quick side question. We don't need to go deep into this, but I'm curious, you know, you're positioning yourself many times as you know this, this guy who.

You know, like super intense. 8, 8am to 5pm we go off on a kickoff meeting at 8am we do the creative brief. I get to working on stuff. We touch base at 12 by 5am.

A finished product, 5P comes in and it's, it's very comprehensive. Yeah. What if you got a client who. They get that and they value you, but they don't need a lot of that high touch, you know, project management and so forth. Is that a good fit for you still or.

No, you know, I recently I. The fact, the past few months. Yeah, well, like 5, 6pm okay, you.

Said am, so I thought, well, we're.

Going to have recently had that where I tried to find out. And I think this is, that's crazy. Yeah, so. And that's worked really well. And of course my wife's like, man, you do like two or three of those, you know, a month and that's great. And I thought a good learning lesson for a lot of people, you know, because I've had that and I thought, well, do I really. You know, sometimes people are like, hey, I need a copywriter, you know, whatever. And I had that and I said no to a lot of that stuff. But what I found was, is that I told my wife, I said, I wonder if I could do something in a day to where they get to. Yeah, I couldn't do any more than one a week. So that's a thought. So I try to look at like, how can I reduce my time and do that and position that and still make sure they get something of value and they need. But I could charge say like 1695. So where it's. I always try to look for win win situations. So I redid a lady's website copy where it took me a day. She was super like, I'm talking about like, you know, like super intense. 8am to 2 or 3 times that I did it. Everyone was really super happy. So that might be, that might be a thing. 5pm we go off on a kickoff meeting at 8am we do the creative brief. I get to working on stuff. We touch base at 12 by 5:00am you have a finished product, 5:00pm and yeah, well, like 5, 6:00pm okay, you said am. So I thought again, like, I look at what, what, what people are coming to me for, right? Is that like, is that working? Is it, is it not working? Am I, you know, did I just lose like over the last few months, $10,000 worth of business that I could. That's crazy. So. And that's worked really well. And of course my wife's like, man, you do like two or three of those a month and that's Great. And I thought, yeah, I couldn't do any more than one a week have done for this. So I look and kind of analyze that stuff and I say, okay, maybe I'll try this and see what helps. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm very much. I don't like to go down a path, of course, because I've learned the hard way. I don't like to go down a path, but that. So that's a thought. So I try to look at like how can I reduce path if there isn't a need? So I try to see and try to see if there's a need my time and do that and position that and still make sure they get something of value. And the two or three times that I did it, everyone was really super happy. So that might be. That might be a thing. But again, I look at what people are coming to me. For instance, a lot of people the past few months have asked me, oh, how do you get into copywriting? And I really like your stuff and blah, blah. I'm like, well, maybe I should charge for coaching. So I try to look at what the market is doing. I think a lot of big companies really do and I think a small business and, and writers is he for right? Is that working? Is it not working? Did I just lose over the Last Few months $10,000 worth of business that I could have done for this? So I look and kind of analyze that stuff and I say, okay, maybe I'll try this and see what helps. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm very much. I don't like to go down a path, of course, because I've learned the hard way I don't like to go down a path. As business people now we really need to look at what are people going to us for at if there isn't a need. So I try to see and try to see if there's a need and what can I create out of that for these people? And, and that's kind of like the.

Fun thing, you know, I'm curious about how you get prospects. So it sounds like from, from what you've shared.

Like for instance, a lot of people the past few months have, have asked me, oh, you know, how do you get into copywriting? And you know, I really like your stuff and blah, blah. I'm like, well, maybe I should charge for. For coaching. So I try to look at what the market is doing. I think like a lot of big companies really do, you know, and I think a small business or you know, and, and writers as business people now we really need to look at what are people going to us for.

And so far that a lot of people are coming to you. Would you say that that's pretty much how all business comes about? Or are you also doing some prospecting, some direct outreach?

What can I create out of that for these people? And for each, you know, it's funny, I do this business and marketing analysis audit. I do every, I've done well two times. That's kind of like the fun thing.

You know, I'm curious about how you get prospects. So it sounds like from, from what you've shared so far that a lot of people are coming to you. Would you say that that's pretty much how all business comes about or are you also doing some prospecting, some direct outreach?

Actually two or three times and I look at, I look at that stuff like where are my prospects coming from, what's working, what's not working? And it's been super helpful. So I found that, you know, most of the people, other than the last few months, most of the people have been coming through Google and I get a typical email, hey, you know, really like your site reach. You know, it's funny, I do this business and marketing analysis audit. I do every, I've done well two times, actually two or three times. And I look at, I look at that stuff like where are my prospects coming from, what's working, what's not working? And it's been super helpful. So I found that, you know, most of the people, other than the last few months, most of the people you know really need help with X, blah blah, blah blah blah or you know, it's somebody that I work with before or referral I'd say though lately it's probably been coming through Google and I get a typical email, hey, you know, really like your site been about 7 out of 10 people have Googled me now that has changed. Now what's fascinating about that and just launching this website which is, you know, really need help with X, blah blah, blah blah blah or you know, it's somebody that I worked with before or referral I'd say though lately it's probably been about 7 out of 10 people have Googled me now that has changed now what's fascinating about that and just launching this website which is just a week old and the past few months, you know, Google just a week old and the past few months, you know, Google hasn't been doing that. And that's one of the reasons why I've been so on top of having to redo my brand because I think there was a disconnect between what I was showing people and what I was charging and I wanted to make sure that that was in alignment. So now, well, hasn't been doing that. And that's one of the reasons why I've been so on top of having to redo my brand because I think there was a disconnect between what I was showing people and what I was charging and I wanted to make sure that that was in alignment. So now I just started reaching out to people again about this because I realized, gosh, I just started reaching out to people again about this because. Because I realized like, gosh, like people aren't coming to me from Google again. I guess other people too. Maybe I'm too high priced for some of these people, I don't know. So a lot of stuff is really new. Like people aren't coming to me from Google again, I guess other people too. Maybe I'm too high price for some of these people, I don't know. So a lot of stuff is really new. And just looking at my analytics, even this morning, gosh, like 50% of the people are coming from like Facebook, like it's crazy. So I always, I always look at the data, I always look at where attention is going, where people and just looking at my analytics, even this morning, gosh, like 50% of the people are coming from like Facebook, like it's crazy. So I always look at the data, I always look at where attention is going, where people are coming to me from this one recent guy who just came from LinkedIn. So people are coming to me from this one recent guy who just came from LinkedIn. So I can't answer that say this right now with the new thing, but I could tell you from previously most 9 out of 10 people have been coming from Google.

And do you find that many people are kind of when, when they come to you through Google, they're kind of looking for the way. Well I guess it's changed recently because of your new positioning. But are they already, you know, I.

Can'T answer that say this right now with the new thing, but I could tell you from pre kind of looking.

For an agency level copywriter.

Obviously most 9 out of 10 people have been coming from Google.

And do you find that they're kind of already. Did they already get that when they start approaching you? It's that many people are kind of when, when they come to you through Google, they're kind of looking for the way. Well, I guess it's changed recently because of your new positioning. But are they already.

It's weird. So I, you know, it's a, it's a weird. It's, it's been a weird mix. There's a lot of. And I call myself. I'm kind of a creative. I'm a creative and a business guy. And I go and it's hard because I have to go back and forth.

Between them kind of looking for an agency level copywriter. Do you find that they're kind of already. Did they already get that when they start approaching you?

It's weird. So I, you know, it's a weird, it's been a weird mix. There's a lot of, you know, I say I'm just as professional as I am creative and I have that even balance because like I have to. But I'm not like I don't know all the right answers and the right ways to do business because I'm kind of new at running my own thing which I look at myself as a business now in the past year and a half. So. And I call myself, I'm kind of a creator. I'm a creator. When people contacted me, to be honest, I would, you know, I was dominative and a business guy and I go. And it's hard because I have to go back and forth between them. You know, I say I'm just as professional as I am creative and I have that even balance because like I haven't said no to a lot of stuff and I don't think people like, you know, like that do. But I'm not like, I don't know all the right. But at the same time I didn't think it was the right thing. But then also too this past month I'm thinking like that was dumb. You know, I start like. Because what I did was, is that I looked when I do this business and marketing audit, I added up all the stuff that I said yes to, all the stuff I said no to. That's like $30,000 worth of no's potential no's that I thought could have gone somewhere. So I'm kind of almost starting over with this new website and answers in the right ways to do business because I'm kind of new at running my own thing which I look at myself as a business now in the past year and a half. So when people contacted me, to be honest, I would, you know, I was dumb and said no to a lot of stuff. And I don't think people like you Know, like, that I think I'm dialing in more. And I think it's a lot more apparent as to, like, I don't think it was before, but I think now it's a lot more apparent as to the quality of work and the quality of clients. So I'm kind of. I'm super excited and interested to see, like, what comes now and how much pushback on pricing or not that I get right now. So I don't know, like, I'm super. I'm super excited to kind of see where that lies.

Tell me about the copywriting studio idea. You mentioned that a little, but at.

The same time, I didn't think it was the right thing. But then also too, this past month, I'm thinking, like, that was dumb, you know, because what I did was, is that I looked, when I do this business and marketing audit, I added up all the stuff that I said yes to, all the stuff I said no to.

But earlier, you're positioning yourself as a copywriting studio. Where did that come from? What do you expect from. From that new angle that you're using?

So I think that, like, if I said I'm a freelancer, like, if I told you it, like if somebody told you they were a freelancer and then somebody came to you and said, I have a creative copywriting studio, that's like $30,000 worth of no's potential no's that I thought could have like just in that very different, Very different things have gone somewhere. So I'm kind of almost starting over with this new website, and I think I'm dialing in more. And I think it's a lot more apparent as to, like, I don't think it was before, but I think now it's a lot more apparent as to the. Yeah, and. And that was. And that was the thing for me, you know, I very. I love design. I know a lot of designers have been in groups. Matter of fact, I used to, you know, I'm fascinated by a lot of people that say, you know, I go to writers things. Like, I never go to writers things because they're not going to hire me. Like, why go. So I used to go to, like, AIG events, AIGA events and all this different stuff, like, go to where people would hire me. And I just got into, like, a lot of different design stuff. And I would see a lot of design firms and the quality of work and the quality of clients. So I'm kind of, I'm super excited and interested to see, like, what comes now and how Much push back on pricing or not that I get right now. So I don't know. Like, I'm super excited to kind of see where that lies.

Tell me about the copywriting studio idea. You mentioned that a little.

A lot of people in the ad world, the marketing world that went off, that would go off on their own are like these design studios, like boutique and everything. And I wanted to bring that to the copywriting side. I wanted to bring that to you because I think. I don't call myself a creative director, but everything that I do, all my work and everything. The only reason my website looks the way it does is because I've led the earlier.

You're positioning yourself as a copywriting studio. Where did that come from? What do you expect from that new angle that you're using?

So I think that creative direction on that, like, I really wasn't. I worked with a brand strategist and like, if I said I'm a freelancer, like, if I told you it. Like if somebody told you they were, and I really wouldn't have any of the work that I've done turn out the way it does without me leading some form of the creative. I don't call myself a creative director, but that's what I kind of. I feel like I'm a copywriter creative director because a lot of creative directors don't. They don't want another creative director there. But I think that it just. I don't freelancer. And then somebody came to you and said, I have a creative copywriting studio. I'm into the art and the science of what we do. Do you know what I mean? I think the art of it. Words. Why I don't use. I don't like the word freelancer because the word free is in it. Like just in that very different.

Very different things. Yeah.

And. And that was. And that was the thing for me, you know, I very. I love design. I know a lot of designers have been in groups. Matter of fact, I used to. I think it just sounds cheap. I just think it sounds. Sounds better. Sounds more expensive. And I think there was one particular quote that, that really resonated with me that, that someone said is you have to be the best at what you do or the only one doing it. And, you know, I'm fascinated by a lot of people that say, you know, I go to writers things. Like, I never go to writers things because they're not going to hire me. Like, why go. So I used to go to like, AIG events, AIGA events and all this different stuff, like go to where people would hire me. And I just got into a. Like, yeah, I don't see anyone else going this route. I see a race to the bottom. A lot of different design stuff. And I would see a lot of design firms. And I see. And by the way, I think that hurts everyone when you lower your prices. And I see that too many people are trying to get the best for the least. And I'm not sure that that's the way that I want to go. It doesn't feel right to me. Do you know what I mean?

Totally. That's what we're all about here. I mean, this whole idea of, well, we just need to. The moment somebody sends me an email, starting with, you know, things are getting so hard.

A lot of people in the ad world, the marketing world that went up that would go off on their own or like these design studios, like boutique and everything. And I wanted to bring that to the copywriting side. I wanted to bring that to. Because I think, like, I don't call myself a creative director, but everything that I do, like all my work there.

And it's, you know, right away I shut down.

Yeah.

Because I'm not saying that what you're experiencing is not reality, but how you perceive that reality is really what matters for sure. So I love this and I'm curious. Well, I know this is still very new. One of the things that I thought of when I hear Copywriting Studio is kind of more full service. Obviously you offer some of these things that a typical copywriter wouldn't, but are you being asked?

Well, what about design and everything? The only reason my website looks the way it does is because I've led the creative direction on that. Wasn't I work with a brand strategist and I really wouldn't have any of the work that I've done turn out the way it does without me leading some form of the creative. I don't call myself a creative director, but that's what.

And so forth. Or is the level of client you're going after. They got that covered, so that's not really an issue.

Well, you know, to be honest, I'm the first one to sell someone on design. And I know, like, you know, I shouldn't because I know that I come from the standpoint is art and copy and I. And. And here's the thing. I think it's important. What I try to do each day is I go to the. I go to the Apple app section. I think this is a great thing for people to kind of. I feel like I'm a copyright or creative director because a lot of creative directors don't. They don't want another creative director there. But I think that it just, I don't, I'm into the art and the science of what we do. Do you know what I mean? I think the art of it words, why I don't use. I don't like the word freelancer because the word free is in it. And I get in the habit of being used to. I look at the top apps. The top apps have been. If you look at, if you go into your phone, you look at itunes or whatever. The top apps even ahead of Google Maps is Instagram. Now. Like I think about this stuff, right? Like people like looking at pictures. Like, you know, if you look at the top business apps, it's about like productivity and how to save people time. And you know, I really try to process this stuff and say, you know what? There's like something to. It's not just all content, it's how it's being. I think it just sounds cheap. I just think it sounds better, sounds more expensive. And I think there was one particular quote that really resonated with me that someone said is you have to be the best at what you do or the only one doing it. And presented as well and it goes back to as well that I, that I think like, you know, that. Well, this was kind of a thing that I kind of want to mention is that I'm not sure that any one of us is just a copywriter. I think we have unique talents and skills.

Yeah.

I don't see anyone else going this route. I see a race to the bottom. I see. And by the way, I think that hurts everyone when you lower your prices. And I see that too many people are trying to get the best for the least. And I'm not sure that that's the way that I want to go. And to be honest with you, we're in a service based business. All it takes is for you to think of something completely out there to package it that solves your, your client's problem. Call it whatever. All it takes is a different way to kind of say that. And for me, you know, I wanted to take. Feel right to me. Do you know what I mean?

Totally. That's what we're all about here. I mean this whole idea of, well, we just need to. The moment somebody sends me an email starting with, you know, things are getting so hard out there and it's, you know, right away I shut Down. Yeah, because I'm not saying that what you're experiencing is not reality, but how you perceive that reality.

A more comprehensive approach. Because at the same time too, I feel if I'm charging more, I want to make sure people get value. But I also, you know, Ed, to be honest, I like the whole idea to execution process. You know, I think that what's happening is everybody calls themselves a copywriter, just like a designer and a real thing, like, are you really, like, are you really taking the work or the time to really understand everything about who your client is, who their competition is, what's working, what's not working is really what matters for sure.

So I love this and, and I'm curious. Well, I know this is still very new. One of the things that I thought of when I hear copywriting student, you.

Know, what's their biggest fear and frustrations? How do we do a buyer Persona, not just for you to be able to write the copy, but to give it to them and say, listen, this is basically everything that video is, you.

Know, kind of more full service. So obviously you offer, you know, some of these things that a typical copywriter wouldn't. But are you being asked, well, what.

About design your copy from now to the next six months or whatever is going to be written, written off of or should be to better understand, you know, your clients and better connect with them, you know, so it doesn't, and I think like when you, when you charge higher price services, it doesn't, it doesn't come down to the hours that you spend, it comes down to the outcome and it comes down and so forth.

Or is the level of client you're going after, they got that covered, so that's not really an issue.

Well, you know, to be honest, I'm the first one to sell someone on design. And I know, like, you know, I shouldn't because I know that I come from the standpoint as art and copy. And here's the thing, I think it's important to the value that you provide. And I think that it's really dependent on just evolving with the times really. I look at this everything without getting what I try to do each day is I go to the Apple app section. I think this is a great thing for people to get in the habit of being used to. I look at the top apps, the top app cheesy or whatever. But I felt that everything until copywriting came into the picture, I mean, it's given me so much. So I try to find out and see and I'm Trying to be one step ahead. I don't know, I don't mess with the marketplace. I try to see what feedback has come up have been if you look at, if you go into your phone, you look at itunes or whatever, the top apps even ahead of Google Maps is Instagram. Now back and adjust accordingly, you know, to that. And that's all I could do. But for me, this is where I'm at right now and it feels right.

So I'm curious as we wrap up, I know a lot of these changes are really new, but where do you plan to take your business?

I think about this stuff, right? People like looking at pictures. Like, you know, if you look at the top business apps, it's about like productivity and how to save people time. And you know, I really try to process this stuff and say, you know what? There's like something to. It's not just all content, it's how it's being.

Jared, what do you see for the next two, three years at least?

You know, I used to be this guy that she used to write down my goals and have this huge plan. And I think it really depends on listening to the feedback of what happens. If I get more people that are like, you know, loving this one day thing presented as well and it goes back to as well that I think like, you know, that thing where I charge two grand or whatever and I start doing really well on that or if I start to find more, you know, you know, I have to be completely realistic. One half of the half of the ad firms of the last eight years that I worked at are gone. Like I have to, like I have to see that and see. Well, like why is that? You know, I look at. Well, this was kind of a thing that I kind of want to mention is that I'm not sure that any one of us is just a copywriter. I think we have unique talents and skills, affirms kind of positioning themselves as consultants or consultancies. So I kind of, I have a certain idea, but I don't want to push it on the marketplace unless I know what's coming back, unless I know what people are coming to me for and people are hiring me for. So I can't necessarily say, but I have to kind of go. And to be honest with you, we're in a service based business. Like all it takes is for you to think of something completely, completely out there to package it that solves your client's problem. Call it whatever. All it takes is a different way to kind of say that and for me, you know, I wanted to take a more comprehensive approach because at the same time, too, I feel if I'm charging more, I want to make sure people get value. But I also, you know, Ed, to be honest, I like the whole idea to execution process. I think that what's happening is everybody calls themselves a copywriter, just like a designer. And I don't think where the marketplace tells me, so I'm just kind of listen to that and kind of go with that. I don't know if that's the best. Maybe it's from a business person standpoint, but I just have to kind of wait and see if that kind of makes sense.

Oh, it absolutely does. And what I'm seeing.

Are you really taking the work or the time to really understand everything about who your client is, who their competition is, what's working, what's not working, what's their biggest fear and frustrations? How do we do a buyer Persona, not just for you to be able to write the copy, but to give it to them and say, listen, this is basically everything that your copy from now to the next six months or whatever is going to be written off of or should be to better understand, you know, your clients and better connect with them, you know, So I. It doesn't. And I think, like, when you. When you charge higher price services, it doesn't. It doesn't come down to the hours that you spend, comes down to the outcome, and it comes down to the value that you provide. And I think that, you know, it's really a more comprehensive approach because at the same time, too, I feel if I'm charging more dependent on, you know, just like evolving with the times, really, you know, I look at this, you know, everything I, you know, without getting cheesy or whatever, but I found that everything until copywriting came into the picture, I mean, it's given me so much. So I try to find out and see, and I try to be one step ahead. I don't know. I don't. I want to make sure people get value. But I also, you know, Ed, to be honest, I like the whole mess with the marketplace. I try to see what feedback is coming.

Just looking in is I think you're absolutely heading in the right direction. I think this idea of, you know, we've talked about race to the bottom. I think that this lowering your feet.

Back and adjust accordingly, you know, to that, and that's all I could do. So. But for me, this is where I'm at right now, and it feels right.

So I'm curious as we wrap up these is just a, that's a losing proposition. That's like the worst thing you could do. So generally speaking, anything you can do to rise above all that and position yourself differently. I know a lot of these changes are really new, but where do you.

Plan to take your business idea to execution process? You know, I think that what's happening.

Jared, what do you see for the next, you know, two, three years at least?

You know, I used to be this guy that used to write down my goals and have this huge plan. And I think it really depends on listening to what is. Everybody calls themselves a copywriter, just like a designer. And I don't think like to the feedback of what happens if I get more people that are like, you know, loving this one day thing where I charge two grand or whatever and I start doing really well on that or if I start to find more, you know, I have to be completely realistic. One half of the half of the ad firms of the last, you know, eight years that I worked at are gone. Like I have to, like I have to see that and see, well, like why is that? You know, I look at ad firms kind of positioning themselves as consultants or consultancies. So I have a certain idea, but I don't want to push it on the marketplace unless I know what's coming back, unless I know what people are coming to me for and people are hiring me for. So I can't necessarily say, but I have to kind of go where the marketplace tells me. So I'm just kind of listen to that and kind of go with that. I don't know if that's the best. Maybe it's from a business person standpoint, you know, but I just have to kind of wait and see if that, if that kind of makes sense.

Oh, it absolutely does. And what I'm seeing. So you can not just forget about competing so you could do very well for yourself.

Right.

I think that's really the way to look at it.

And what like, are you really, like, are you really taking the work or the time to really understand that looks.

Like from year to year, I mean, you're just going to have to course correct as you move through this.

Right, right.

I think you've made a very wise bet here. And man, I just looking in is, I think you're absolutely heading in the right direction. I think this idea of, you know, we've talked about race to the bottom. I think that this lowering your fees is just a, that's a losing proposition. That's like the worst thing you could do. So generally speaking, anything you can do to rise above all that and position.

Yourself differently and everything about who your client is, who their competition is, what's working, what's so you can not just.

Forget about competing so you could do very well for yourself.

Right.

I think that's really the way to look at it and what that looks like from year to year, I mean, you're just going to have to course correct as you move through this.

Right, right.

I think you've made a very wise bet here. And man, I, you know, we may need to do a follow up here in a year or so just to see, hey, you know, lessons learned, what went well, what didn't go so well, what did you learn? But I'm excited for you. I think this is totally the right move and I'm glad you're, you're confident about this direction, but you're also willing to iterate based on, you know, what's.

Their biggest fear and frustrations. How do we do a buyer Persona, not just for you to be able to write the copy, but to give it to them and say, listen, this is basically everything that you're on, what's happening on feedback. So yeah, that's healthy. Well, yeah, well, yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, same thing with, I tell clients, listen, I could get it to where the best that it needs to be. But listen, you don't know unless you actually start putting stuff out there and then get the feedback on what's working and not what's working and not working, then course correct on that. Do you know what I mean? Because so many people fall in love with like this idea and everything. Like people you don't know, you put it out there, you hope that it's going to do this. You look at the data, you look at the research, all this stuff, this doesn't work fine. You autocorrect, you change little things here and there and then you learn and you take feedback from that and then you keep tweaking.

We may need to do a follow up here in a year or so just to see, hey, lessons learned, what went well, what didn't go so well, what did you learn? But I'm excited for you. I think this is totally the right move and I'm glad you're confident about this direction, but you're also willing to.

To iterate based on fine tuning things until it gets to where you want to be.

Well, this has been fantastic, Jared. I really loved the conversation just talking with you about what you're trying why you're doing this and where you've come from just for listeners benefit. I just want to send them to the right place. They want to learn more about you and your work and what you're up to. Where can I send them?

Yeah, please. I mean the main thing is jaredkessler creative.com, you know, all the way to the bottom. There's all the social media stuff. I've been, you know, doing more on Instagram and I have my Facebook page and you know, trying. Right, yeah, yeah, all that, all that fun stuff. I do something called Copy Tip Tuesdays, which is actually today. You know, I'm always trying out new stuff but you know. Yeah, you could check out jaredkesslercreative.com yeah, I'd love to hear from people. I'd love to do get into like more workshops and life stuff like that. So yeah, I listen, I'd love to hear from everyone, see what's going on in their world. Well, thank you, Copy from now to the next six months or whatever is going to be written, written off of or should be.

Thank you Jared. Really enjoy the conversation, man.

Thank you so much. Really great being out. The High Income Business writing podcast is.

A production of B2B business line. Learn more at B2B launcher.

Better understand, you know, your clients and better connect with them. You know, so.com.

On what's happening on feedback. So yeah, that's healthy.

Well, yeah, well yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, same thing with, I tell clients, listen, I could get it to where the best that it needs to be. But listen, you don't know unless you actually start putting stuff out there and then get the feedback on what's working and not what's working and not working then course correct. It doesn't. And I think like when you, when you charge higher price services, it doesn't, it doesn't come down to the hours that you spend, comes down to the outcome and it comes out on that. Do you know what I mean? Because so many people fall in love with like this idea and everything. Like people you don't know. You put it out there, you hope that it's going to do this. You look at the data, you look at the research, all this stuff, this doesn't work fine. You autocorrect, you, you change little things here and there and then you learn and you take feedback from that and then you keep tweaking to the value that you provide. And I think that, you know, it's really dependent on, you know, just like evolving with the times really. You know, I look at this, you know, everything I, you know, without getting cheesy or whatever, but I found that everything until copywriting came into the picture and fine tuning things until it gets to where you want to be.

Well, this has been fantastic, Jared. I really loved the conversation, just talking with you about what you're trying, why you're doing this and where you've come from just for listeners benefit. I just want to send them to the right place. They want to learn more about you and your work and what you.

Sure. I mean it's given me so much so I try to find out and see and I'm trying to be one step ahead. I don't know, I don't know.

You're up to where can I send them?

Yeah, please. I mean the main thing is jaredkessler creative.com you know, all the way at the bottom there's all the social media stuff. I've been, you know, doing more on Instagram and I have my Facebook page and yeah, yeah, all that, all that fun stuff. I do something called Copy Tip Tuesdays which actually don't mess with the marketplace. I try to see what feedback is coming back and adjust accordingly to that. That's all I could do. But for me, this is where I'm at right now and it feels right.

So I'm curious as we wrap up. I know a lot of these changes are really new, but where do you plan to take your business, Jared? What do you see for the next two, three years at least?

Today I'm always trying out new stuff, but yeah, you can check out jaredkesslercreative.com yeah, I'd love to hear from people. I'd love to do get into more workshops and life stuff like that. So yeah, listen, I'd love to hear from everyone, see what's going on in their world.

Well, thank you Jared. Really enjoy the conversation man.

Thank you so much. Really great being out. The High Income Business Writing podcast is a production of B2B business launcher.

Learn more at B2B launcher.

You know, I, I used to be this guy that used to write down my goals and have this huge plan and I, I think it really depends on listening to what.com to the feedback of what happens if I get more people that are like, you know, loving this one day thing where I charge two grand or whatever and I start doing really well on that or if I start to find more, you know, I have to be completely realistic. 1/2 of the half of the ad firms of the last Eight years that I worked at are gone. Like I have to, like I have to see that and see, well, like why is that? I look at affirms positioning themselves as consultants or consultancies. So I have a certain idea, but I don't want to push it on the marketplace unless I know what's coming back, unless I know what people are coming to me for and people are hiring me for. So I can't necessarily say, but I have to kind of go where the marketplace tells me. So I'm just kind of listen to that and kind of go with that. I don't know if that's the best. Maybe it's, you know, from a business person standpoint, you know, but I just have to kind of wait and see if that, if that kind of makes sense.

Oh, it absolutely does. And what I'm seeing just looking in is I think you're absolutely heading in the right direction. I think this idea of, you know, we've talked about race to the bottom. I think that this lowering your fees is just a, that's a losing proposition. That's like the worst thing you could do. So generally speaking, anything you can do to rise above all that and position yourself differently so you can not just forget about competing. So you could do very well for yourself.

Right.

I think that's really the way to look at it and what that looks like from year to year, I mean, you're just going to have to course correct as you move through this.

Right, right.

I think you've made a very wise bet here and man, we may need to do a follow up here in a year or so just to see, hey, lessons learned.

What we.