#171: Five Valuable Case Study Tips from a 20-Year Case Study Veteran

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. You can find detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 171 and those notes will include a summary of our discussion as well as links to resources we mention during the show. Casey Hibbard is one of the best and most prolific case study writers in North America, probably even the world. She's been writing case studies for over 20 years now and has been focusing exclusively on case studies for for much of that time. That's all she does these days and has been doing that for years. She is one of the few out there who just writes case studies. Casey was one of my first guests in this podcast, and in that interview way back when, she discussed the opportunity in writing case studies and why these projects are such a great way to consistently earn $200 or more an hour. As a writer, you don't typically quote this by the hour, you don't quote this by the word. But effectively, if you do this right, as she explains in that interview, you could end up earning over $200 an hour. Now, with her 20th business anniversary, I asked Casey to come back on the show and share some of the most important lessons she's learned after writing hundreds of case studies for dozens and dozens of companies. And in this interview, she shares five valuable tips that will make you a stronger case study writer and help you command higher fees for these fun little projects. These tips are just pure gold, and I hope you enjoy them. Casey, welcome again to the show. Great to have you back.

Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks, Ed. It's been a while since the last one.

Yeah, it's been a while. You know, you were like my second or third guest the show, like, back in 2013, if you can believe it.

Wow. Yeah, I can't believe it's been that long.

We were both teenagers, right?

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, we're wiser now in our 20s, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, exactly.

It is great to have you back. Always love chatting with you. And, you know, I know that some people out there may not know who you are. So why don't we start with a little bit of an introduction. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your Business, the clients you serve, the work you do.

Okay, yeah, definitely. Personally, I live in Colorado, married, and I have a 7 year old son who's crazy.

I got one of those too.

You got one of those two.

Yeah, I remember we both, yeah, we both had. Mine is my second one, but yeah, they're the same age.

Right, right, exactly. Yeah. So you know, the craziness. So. Yeah. And you have two boys, so you're extra experienced.

I got a teenager and a willful 7 year old, so I get hit on both sides.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So my business is compelling cases. I have been actually a copywriter for 20 years, more than 20 years, which is really hard to believe. It's gone really fast. And like when I started I was like writing printed brochures. I mean that's what's weird. It doesn't feel like it's been that long, but things have really changed a lot since then. These days I focus pretty much exclusively on customer case studies and what I call related voice of the customer content, which might be like blogs or sales slides, that kind of thing that, where I can take a case study and turn it into other forms of content for a client. And I pretty much work mostly with tech companies. I started out working for tech companies and that's really been, you know, what I've stuck with. I have the occasional like B2B company that's not tech, maybe like a consulting company or you know, B2C. Like I've done some writing for AWI, but mostly tech.

Okay. And so if somebody comes to you and says, hey, listen, we really, what we really need is a, a white paper or help with a web copy, you pretty much say no.

I say no, I refer that work on to other writers.

So, so you're really specialized, you really want to do the case studies and voice of the customer stuff.

Exactly, yep, that's my thing. And you know, and at this point, if somebody asks me to write something else, I'm not the best person, honestly, because I'm really rusty with the other stuff. And think they can get a better job by going to somebody else who specializes in those things.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think you're smart and you've built your business to a point where you are confident that you can continue to make a good living just on case studies because you've been doing it for so long. In fact, that leads me to another question. How did you end up writing case studies? And I'm curious if that was a specialty that you created right away or was there a process to get there. You did mention that you started out doing some brochures, but how early in your business did you go ahead and take a stand?

So it was probably like a year into my business when one of my existing clients called me in, because back then we met in person a lot. So I went in and. I know, I know, it was weird. I got all dressed up and drove over to the client's office and they were like, can you, can you write a case study for us? And I had to admit, right there in person, like, I don't know what a case study is. What is this? It sounded very medical or kind of business school, you know, textbook related. But they showed me a sample and there was this like, aha moment where I was like, this is exactly what I want to do. I mean, this is this perfect mix of journalism and marketing because I'd had a journalism background before and it's, you know, the same thing. You're interviewing and telling a story. And so anyway, I proceeded from there to write my first case study for them and more and then just really loved it so much that started offering it to more clients. And it was probably, I don't know, two years into being a copywriter that I decided I was going to make all of my marketing messaging just about case studies. Like, I am the case study specialist. It doesn't mean that I didn't do other work for a long time. I did continue to do a lot of other work because it took a while, of course, to build up just a case study business. But it was the kind of thing where I only talked about it publicly that I do case studies. And then I had the choice, you know, if somebody said, well, we also need some web copy or press releases, or whatever, then I could say yes or no in the moment. But over time, it really grew to the point where I didn't need to do the other types of writing anymore.

That's very cool. Yeah. So it was a progressive process. This wasn't an overnight thing. You took a stand, but you said yes to some work if it was the right client and until you could get it to just 100% case studies.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I, you know, and I think the way I did it worked well for me to just like my website, be all about case studies but still have the choice, like in a pinch, you know, to like, say if someone, if an existing client needed other stuff, you know, to be able to say, you know, yes for, for a while to that other stuff to fill in the gaps Absolutely.

Yeah. You got to be smart, right?

Yeah.

So, man, it's been a long time, right? About 20 years or so. Case study, writing experience. And I'm curious, after doing this kind of work for so long, I'd love to spend some time today just really picking your brain about maybe the most important tips and advice that you might have for other case study writers, whether they specialize 100% on case studies, which there's not a lot of people who do that, or it's kind of a big part of their business or something they want to do more of. So could you maybe talk about some of the key things you feel people really need to think about, focus on, and maybe deploy?

Right. Absolutely. Yeah. I'll share five tips with you guys today. Just. Yeah. Stuff that I have picked up over the years and continue to apply, like, every single day. So, number one would be to really try to tell a unique story every single time. And it sounds kind of obvious, but, like, let me give you an example. I had a client who makes software for law firms, and it was kind of situation. And, Ed, you've probably been in this situation before, too, where every person you talk to, you know, it's a law firm, they use the software the same way. Every single interview sounded the same. So I had to figure out a way to make every story different so that when they had these. This collection of case studies on their website, people were not like, well, like, every story is the same.

Yeah, we save so much time.

Right, Right, Exactly. Yeah. You know, here's this law firm, and, yeah, they specialize in, you know, whatever. And, yeah, it's just so. So the way that I do that is my questioning, and I have to be, you know, pretty specific in my questioning. So, for example, like, if I can get them to, you know, I might say something like, you know, tell me about a time when you knew things had to change. So I'm trying to get them to give me an anecdote. So tell me about a time when you knew things had to change or talk about the frustrations you had with your previous situation, you know, your previous legal software, and, you know, what did that mean for your business? And so maybe I can get them to say, invoicing took a week. It took us a week to get invoicing done. And that meant that we didn't get paid, you know, like, our. You know, our cash flow was low because we weren't getting, you know, paid fast enough. And so if I can get them to sort of just elaborate on either the you know, the challenges or what this really looked like in their business then going to be unique and specific each time. So a lot of it is about, you know, digging for that deeper story. And then, you know, I might ask questions like, tell me about a time when it was clear that things had changed for the better. And that is a form of questioning where I'm getting them to again, you know, maybe give me an anecdote like, oh, you know, man, we, you know, we were sitting there and we realized that like we finished invoicing in two hours or, you know, whatever and we were able to like go home and have dinner with our families and not, you know, spend the evening doing invoicing endlessly or, you know, so a lot of it is about trying to, trying to get those unique anecdotes so that every story does sound different.

You're looking for the right hook, I take it. Right. And that's going to be deeply embedded in the story itself, which is always going to be unique to everybody. So it sounds like what I'm hearing is, it's kind of the. What somebody once told me the so what? You know, so they give you something and many times that's what the writer will take down and they move on to the next question. It sounds like you're really good at digging deep.

Yeah, yeah. And absolutely, you kind of have to be a detective sometimes in your interviewing because, you know, and this kind of leads into my next tip. Because you don't want someone to answer your question with. It's great, we like it. Because you can't, I mean, I get that. And you can't build a compelling case study on someone answering. It's great.

Yeah, it works. It works great.

It works. Yeah. Yeah. So. And you get those personalities sometimes who, they're just not real talkative people and they're answering your question. But you need a lot more than that. So. Yeah, so my second tip would be to ask, you know, specific open ended questions. So yeah, so you don't end up with these, you know, really curt answers. So some examples. So instead of saying, what benefits have you seen with the product or service? I will lay it out to them. I will say, well, you know, how much time did that activity take before? How much time did invoicing take before? And you know, why was that a problem? And then how much time does it take now? And what does that mean for you? What does that free you up to be able to do that you couldn't do before? And I also find that, I mean, customers Kind of need this level of specificity because we've just pulled them from whatever activity they're doing in their business and they don't know what I'm really looking for. So if I can be crazy specific with my questioning, that helps them a ton versus leaving it open. What are the benefits you've seen? They're like, well, okay, it's harder for them to know exactly what I'm looking for.

Sure. Yeah. They're thinking and keep in mind too that this is like the middle of their workday. So they kind of were in the middle of something and then the alert went off and now they're talking to you and they're going to have something else after. Right. So it's. They're not really thinking deeply about, okay, it saved me a lot of time. Maybe that's kind of where they stop. And they were excited about that. But then you might uncover, and I think you use this example a minute ago, you know, for the first time in years I was able to be home for dinner with my family like at least three or four nights a week. And that's maybe not. That wasn't the first thought that came to mind when you asked the question, but it sounds like if you go deeper and you ask follow up questions. And I love your questioning about. Tell me about a time when that's a great question.

Yeah, I love that one. And you can use it for either the challenge part, like, tell me about a time when you knew things had to change, or the positive part, the benefit part. Tell me about a time when it was clear that things had changed for the better.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Do you have backup questions like, because I know from doing interviews that you think, okay, this is going to do it, and then they kind of draw a blank and they're not really sure where you're going with it or how to answer it. Do you always have kind of something in your back pocket?

Yeah, I do. Yep. And it's funny because sometimes my clients have created the interview questions for me. They're like, here is our standard list of interview questions. And I have to like have my, you know, then like elaborate in the margins, you know, on my own. Maybe my client doesn't even know about it, you know, that. Well, I've got to ask some, ask them differently. And I've got to ask him additional questions. One that I really love is to say something like, well, the customer that I interviewed last week said that they're saving at least like, you know, four days. They cut like Four days off their invoicing process. So is that what you've experienced? You know, so if I can, like, throw it out there and say someone else. Yeah, and then they confirm or deny or clarify, you know, no, we've, you know, we're actually seeing like five days, you know, faster or whatever. So that, that is one tactic I use. Yeah. So, yeah, so you try to be really specific and, and you do have to be kind of dynamic as you go along as they answer, like, recognize. All right, I need to dig deeper and ask a question, maybe a different way or, you know, dig in a little more.

And I'm sure that comes with practice, but it sounds like you, you kind of have some standard questions. You also did some preparation and you, you know, you have your sheet in front of you, and so you're not making this up as you go.

Definitely not. Yeah, I'm, I'm super prepared with my interview questions. And even though I've been doing this a long time, I always have my list of interview questions in front of me. And, you know, because also I'm, I'm juggling back and forth throughout the day between different products, technology. Products and services. And like, you know. Yeah, I just want to make sure that I'm not. Not confusing anything and that. Yeah, doing. Keeping my, My brain on the right. The right software product.

Yeah, yeah. Not mixing up, you know, one. One company with another. Real quick question. Do you. Do you send the. Your client's customer, or do they send a copy of your questions ahead of time so they can kind of think through that and know where you're going with it? Or does that typically not happen?

You know, I do with some of my clients. I don't always do it, but I do sometimes. And so there's just, you know, a warning there with that. So I think, I think it can be really helpful for people to know what you're expecting and what we'll generally talk about. But you have to be really clear. Don't fill this out and send it back to me. You know, like, the purpose is just as a heads up. And we'll go over these questions on the live interview. Be clear because they'll fill it out and say, are we good? Do we not need to have our call?

Yeah.

Which you don't want, because you want that, you know, quotable. Like, you want it to sound authentic, like someone, you know, the way someone's talking and not the way someone's writing.

Yeah. So I'm with you. Okay.

Yeah.

So that's tip number Two. Right. Ask specific open ended questions, be prepared with those questions and be prepared to, to follow up if it's not going the way you want or you're not getting what you want. You know, be prepared to dig deeper.

Right, Exactly.

Okay.

Exactly. Yeah. And then so number three is to really check the story against your client's goals, you know, the vendor, because ultimately this is a sales and marketing piece for them. And you know, so I kind of do that reality check with nearly every case study. Like is this meeting, you know, what they said they need? And the way that I know that is because, you know, when I first start working with a client, I do kind of this discovery process where I ask them, you know, who their, who their audience is and what some of the key messages are that they would want to see in their case studies. And, you know, just that kind of thing. Like if every case, like what would be in the perfect case study? That's one of my favorite questions is, you know, if you could create the ideal case study, what would be in it? What would it say? And so keep that in mind. Always go back to that. Is this what they want? And you are somewhat limited in a case study by what the customer has said to you. But your questions drive that. You can tailor your questions to try to get the customer to say what you want them to say. And then when you write it, almost, you know, go through and say, okay, yes, we are on message with what the client wants ultimately.

Yeah. One of the things, and that's a great tip, I learned that by accident. I had even a client really coach me on that and he said, listen, when you write these for us, I want you and I to have a conversation first because many times I'm going to know something personal or something that's deep that I want you to bring up in the conversation. If the client doesn't bring it up.

Oh, good.

And so he would give me a heads up just to go back to that example about, man, I was finally able to be home for dinner with my wife and kids for the first time in years. My contact would know something like that and he would make sure to, you know, to bring it up so that I would, I would bring it up in the conversation if it didn't come up.

Right, right. Yeah, that kind of information is super helpful.

Yeah, they know something like that, something important like, hey, I feel like the hook is kind of this, you know, and man, that makes my job so much easier. So I kind of learned that trick by accident. It wasn't My idea just. I had a client approach me.

Right? Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, and that's another thing. Like, as much as you can know about the customer that you're interviewing before you go in, the better, you know, if they can, they can tell you, like, the sales rep can say, well, you know, the customer shared with us that, like, they're saving all this money and their customers are happier. And, you know, all that just makes your questions so much better and so much more focused. Yeah, perfect. Let's see. My fourth tip would be to really make the case study human. This is a unique type of marketing content, and customer case studies are really one of the only places where you have this chance to, you know, feature people. You know, they work at organizations usually, but you get the chance to, you know, feature a real person and use that, because that's what makes it interesting. You know, people get frustrated, they get excited, they're relieved. So if you can capture that kind of information in your quotes, then it makes it a much more compelling and engaging story, you know, so, like, to do that, I'll say, you know, well, like, talk about some of the pains or problems that you were having before, you know, that really made you want to do something different to make a change. You know, I just wrote a case study for, like, an executive coach who was coaching a business owner, and the business owner was just, like, sweating payroll. And I got him to say that, and to be quoted saying, I had sweated payroll one too many times, and I just was looking for a way out. You could just really feel the sense of frustration that he experienced for, you know, why he felt like he needed a coach. And so you're looking for those nuances.

In language and really kind of exploiting that in a. In a positive sense of the word, of course. But I love that. That's. That's what makes it come alive. I really feel that's why reality TV is so popular. It's like, we really want to see, like, that person, like, in real life and what they're like and what they go through. For some reason, that's a very interesting thing to humans.

Yeah, yeah. In social media, you know, like, people following, you know, all these personalities on, you know, Instagram or whatever. You, like, want to know what their lives are like and, you know, all that vulnerability and stuff. So, yeah, it just ties into all of that.

I love it. So both the pain and the success. Right? So I'm sure you hit both angles where the. Before, what was the pain? Like, how can I Show the humanity here as well as on the other side once you. Because that's the hero of the story.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And in that same coaching story that I talked about, we ended the story with Jim talking about how his wife is so much happier now because. Because he's happier and, you know, it isn't so stressed. And, you know, that's just like, part of, you know, the human. Human part of it.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Because it's. I know we were taught to focus on tangible results and numbers and, you know, okay, that's great, but can we get a number on that? And. But I think we sometimes miss this angle, so I'm glad you mentioned that. That's a really, really good point.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then the last one is the permission part. You know, with customer case studies, it's a necessary evil that the customer has to agree beforehand and then approve the story later on. It's a unique aspect that's not really there with any other marketing content. And it's always tricky. It's never been more important to make sure that customers have permission to proceed at the start, because what happens is the contact that uses the product or service on a daily basis, they're totally happy. They're willing to support their vendor. They've got a good relationship with their vendor. Like, sure, no problem. I'll do the case study. And then you go through the process, and then the legal or marketing department says, well, we don't do this kind of thing. We don't endorse anyone. And you've gone to all this work and all this time, and then you can't use the story you've created. So, you know, and I mean, this week I was talking to clients about. About this because, you know, we. With one of them, we thought we had the correct permissions, but some still, like, something happened in the whole chain, and some VP was like, no, I don't think so. I don't think we want to do this. And so brings up the conversation again, like, all right, what do we need to do? So anyway, as a writer, it's not necessarily your responsibility to make sure that those permissions are there, but as one of my best practices, I do typically ask at the beginning of the call, like, who's going to need to approve this? And have you spoken with them? I just want to, you know, make sure that all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed.

And you're asking your client, right? You're asking your client this.

Well, I'M asking my client, I'm also asking the customer. Okay. You know. Yeah, yeah, because I just want to double check because sometimes, yeah, sometimes my clients, you know, may not be quite as thorough. And so it's just always a good idea to double check.

So have you been in situations where they, you found out about when you're about to do the interview that no, they hadn't really run it through their boss or legal or something?

Yeah. Especially if I start saying, well, you know, so does your like marketing department or legal department need to review this? They go, oh, well, my boss said it was okay, but I don't know about our marketing or legal department. And so actually it'll slow down the process, but it's way better to have that permission before than to go through the whole thing and then find out that you don't, you can't use it.

Absolutely. In a situation like that, would you kind of then disengage and then go ahead and contact your client and say, hey, listen, here's what I found out. We were about to do the interview, but you know, do you kind of throw it back on their court?

Yeah, yeah. And they, you know, they appreciate it because usually they know, you know, what can happen. I mean, they don't want to find out too late that we can't get permission. So, yeah, I'll go back, you know, to my client and say, look, I just chatted with the customer and they're not positive that they have, you know, permission from legal that this is okay. So they're going to just double check and let us know, you know. So, yeah, it's, you know, it's usually, yeah, the customer contact that's going back and doing that checking and keeping, you know, me and my client in the loop on where we're at.

That's very smart. I love that. So what I have down here is first tip was tell a unique story every time. Second tip, ask specific open ended questions. Third, check the story against the vendor's goals. Fourth, make it human. And fifth, very important, get permission up front. Maybe even like number one, move it to the number one spot.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, it's frustrating and unfortunate, but that's just the way it is with case studies.

Yeah, I think this is sound, sound advice. I'm curious as we start wrapping up, Casey, how are case studies changing? Are you seeing any interesting or important trends that as case study writers we should be paying attention to?

Yeah, definitely. Everyone is going shorter. Like everyone wants shorter stories. And when I say Shorter. I mean, not longer than two pages if it was on a PDF. Just front, front and back.

What do you figure on word count? I know it varies depending on the layout, but roughly what range?

I mean, probably like 800, you know, no more than 900 words to make that fit.

Gotcha.

Yeah. And then if you have, you know, big images, even less, you know, and at the same time, it's funny because clients are a little bit schizophrenic on that because they'll say, well, you know, I don't want to lose some of the key messages, but we want it shorter. And so it can be really, you know, a challenge because it's like, well, I still need to get in there some explanation about, you know, why they chose the product over another product.

Yeah. What happened in that whole story about this? Why didn't you include it?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I know. You know, so the client's like, oh, we need it shorter. But, yeah, but, like, yeah. Why didn't you get this key message in here or talk about this or that or. Yeah, so it's a challenge for writers to figure out how to, say, get everything in there as succinctly as possible. But, like, you know, infographics are also a big thing. Trying to, you know, convey the benefits in an infographic. And you can partner with a designer on doing that and provide that for your clients.

Meaning taking a success story and then also kind of splintering off an infographic out of it. Like creating something after you've done the story.

Okay, exactly.

Not taking the place of the story, but.

Yeah, right, right, exactly. Then they can use it in social media, that kind of thing. And then related content is also a big thing, you know, and I definitely encourage writers to include, you know, things like blog posts or sales slides in their, like, pricing packages. A sales slide would just be the case study summarized on, like, one PowerPoint slide. You know, what was the challenge, the solution, the results, and maybe like a featured quote or something. But I provide that for quite a few of my clients.

And that's an extra. That's an upsell. Yeah, okay.

Exactly. Yeah. And going back to one of our. The points I was mentioning earlier, hardly anybody actually uses legal release forms anymore. It's almost all done over email. The customer just says, this looks good. Yeah. I have maybe one or two clients that actually use legal release forms still.

So if you don't mind going back to the related content piece, because I'm curious what other ideas you're seeing out there that work well. You mentioned blog posts creating a sales slide that they can insert in a sales presentation. What other ideas have you seen work? Well, that could add a few more dollars to the project.

Let's see. So one thing that I see some companies do is create, like, almost two versions. You know, they have a longer version, and then they might have, like, a snapshot version where it's like a few sentences for the challenge, a few sentences for the solution, and then some bullet points for results, you know, and maybe that's what is like the web teaser, you know, so, you know, that's what. What goes on the web. And then it's like, you know, for. For the full case study, click here so people can look more in depth behind it. But, yeah, but I'm seeing more of that. You know, let's have like, the web, the really short web version, and then a longer version, maybe a PowerPoint version and then the blog. And you could also do social media, like, I will provide you with the. The tweet or a Facebook post, that kind of thing. That requires maybe some more design skills. I like that. You could do that, too.

That's very cool. Those are great ideas.

Yeah.

Basically shorter. That's been a trend, the infographics, adding that element to it. So really it's another asset. And then creating related content just to get the most out of that asset. Blog post, sales slides, different versions, social media copy. I think those are all brilliant ideas. So tell us about your book, Casey, because I know some people may not realize you have a wonderful book out there. Every time somebody says, how do I write case studies? I need kind of a quote, and I need a guide that's got some good meat to it up. Stories. Stories that sell.

Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Yeah, so stories that sell. It really kind of walks writers as well as organizations through the process of planning your case studies, writing, interviewing, and then the actual process of going through these types of projects. Because it is different from any other type of marketing content, you know, because of the permissions and approvals and, you know, having to get, you know, part really partner with customers to get the information. So the book, you know, kind of covers all of that and start, start to finish. Yeah, I have some examples, but I also have on my website, you know, some blog posts and some free downloads and all that kind of stuff, which is compelling-cases.com so there's a bunch of free stuff on there if you want to go check it out.

Perfect. So we'll make sure to include that link in the show notes and guys, definitely. We'll also include a link to the book. It's fantastic. It's a wonderful resource. So much that you can learn. So as a writer, there's a lot for the clients side there, but I think it's really helpful because you'll get to see what the client will have to deal with before and after. And it could be great information for you to coach a less sophisticated client through this process. Maybe they haven't done any case studies or they've only done a few and there's so much in there that you can help them with if you understand kind of their side. Because your side writing it is really a small piece of the overall strategy.

Right, right, right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I think it's really, really helpful. You can be more valuable as a writer if someone comes to you and says, we've never done case studies before, we don't know where to start or how this process works, then you know, if you can guide them through that, you're much more valuable and you can like kind of be the project manager and maybe charge a little more than if you're just doing the writing and interviewing kind of to like see it through the whole process.

Agreed? Agreed. 100%. Casey, this has been a wonderful interview. It's always great to chat with you.

So thank you for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. This has been really fun, Ed. I appreciate it.

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