#173: Liz Sheffield on the Importance of Professional Development for Freelancers

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing.

Podcast, helping you propel your writing business.

To a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. You can find details show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com forward/episode 173 and those notes include a summary of our discussion as well as any links to resources we mention during the show. Now, before we get to this week's interview, I wanted to let you know that I have a few open slots in my coaching group for writers who are already earning at least $5,000 a month, but who want to get to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. We're going to be working closely together this year to get you to six figures without proportionally increasing your workload. And that's key. If you'd like to learn more, send me an email eddy belauncher.com put the word double in the subject line and I'll reply to you personally. One of the pitfalls of working for yourself is that you often get so busy you forget to invest in yourself and in your professional development. And let's face it, I mean, you wear a ton of hats. There's only so much time every week to do all these different things. But if you don't take time to regularly feed the goose if you will, you'll soon have no golden eggs left. In this interview, Liz Sheffield explains why she's a huge proponent of investing in yourself and in your freelance business. Liz is a freelance writer who works with companies that market and sell to human resources departments. As an HR profess herself, she understands the benefits and advantages of taking time to improve your knowledge and skills. And as a freelancer herself, she also understands the challenges we face in finding the time and resources to do this consistently. In this conversation, she's going to give us quite a bit. She's going to give us an overview of the different types of professional development opportunities out there. She covers both paid and free options. So don't think that you know when I'm talking professional development, I'm strictly talking about paid investments. She also explains how you can ensure that you make the right kind of investment of your time and money. And then she also talks about how you can keep up your skills and knowledge even when you have very limited time. And that's the Case for, I would say, most of us. One more thing I wanted to mention, and this is not part of the interview, but it's something Liz and I kind of left out, and it got me thinking after we, we talked. And this is something really, really important. So here's the deal. This kind of stuff is not going to happen on its own. If you find an opportunity to invest in your business and in your professional development, and it involves an actual cash outlay. So this is something that costs money. It's going to be very, very difficult for you to make that commitment if you haven't budgeted for it. I'm a huge believer in taking a portion of your business revenue and alloc automatically every month into a separate business account where you are basically saving for the right opportunities. When you do that, you will have the resources necessary to make that investment. If you don't do it, it becomes a huge burden and you risk missing out on opportunities that could make a huge impact on your business. So that would be the only thing that I would add to our conversation, is to make a commitment to yourself to start allocating a percentage, even if you have to start really, really small, you know, 1, 2, 3% a month, and making that. Moving that, that allocation to a separate account that you don't touch and you use only for professional development. When you do that, two things will happen. You'll have the resources necessary to make those investments, and number two, you'll feel really good about making that investment because you are taking money from a place where you're not going to miss it. In fact, it was money that you had earmarked for those investments. So with that, let's get to our conversation with Liz Sheffield. Enjoy. Liz, welcome to the show. Great to have you here.

Thanks, Ed. I've been listening for many years, so it's great to be on the other side of the audio dial.

This time you're in the hot seat. So now you can listen to yourself. Yeah, no, this is great. I'm excited to talk about this important topic. And before we get to that, why don't you give us a brief overview about your business. So the work you do, the types of clients you work with, your areas of focus.

Sure. Well, so I've had my business, Liz Sheffield, copywriting for almost seven years, and I'm a writer dedicated to writing for people who are marketing to HR departments. So I write about everything from employee relations to employee engagement, staffing, anything about the people side of the business is what I like to say. And I launched my Business because I spent 12 years in HR at Starbucks Coffee Company. And when I realized I wanted to have my own business, it was a perfect link to write about and for the audience that I had been a member of for so many years.

Oh, that's really cool. So you're able to. Yeah, just leverage what you really knew into a writing business for companies who are targeting that. Who are targeting you, essentially.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Very cool. Yeah. And that's, as you know, I'm a big believer in that. Start with what you know, leverage what you already know because that's also where many of your connections will be. When you were starting out, were you able to leverage some of your network?

Yes. And actually Starbucks had a big layoff in 2008. And I realized that that layoff benefited me in an odd way. I mean, I was really sad when so many of my colleagues had to leave. But then when I was starting my business in 2012, I had all these people who were now in new organizations that I could reach out to and say, hey, can we work together again? And that led to a lot of great projects and renewed connections.

So that's great. And isn't it wonderful too, when those people then move around also after they become clients?

Keep it moving.

Yeah, yeah, keep changing, keep changing. Cool. So let's talk about the main topic today, professional development and investing in professional development. I know you are really good about investing in yourself and your business and specifically in professional development. And I'm curious why you believe that this is so important for a self employed professional.

Yeah, I cannot reiterate enough how important I think it is. And some of that is because I'm a lifelong learner and I just enjoy the challenge of owning my own business and being able to learn new things that I never thought I would have to take on. And really having the background in training and development kind of helped me also see the value in that. I saw people go from being a barista to a regional director and that was all from their professional development. So I just brought that with me into the freelance world. And, you know, I'm not going to get bored if I'm trying something new or learning something new. And people, there are other people out there that might be more comfortable, I guess, with the status quo, if you will. But I would say and share the insight that every time that I have made a significant investment in my development, I have seen a big jump in my success. So that was true. And I worked with you for the 2x project. It's true. When I really early in my career I had a coach again, wouldn't be where I am without that development and support. So I guess it's from my own just learner personality. But it's also seen the benefit come alive in very real, tangible ways that has made me know that it's something that I need to do and to invest in.

Yeah. And I find that a lot of us are just lifelong learners, aren't we? It's like writers are readers and we're also, I find that we're just insanely curious people and we love to learn. I just, by the way, somebody just gave me a gift card to Amazon, like a really big one. And you should have seen me last night. I mean, like I was in my iPad on the couch, just going to town on my shopping cart and Today I ordered no 27 books.

Oh my gosh, Ed.

Which, I mean, look, I'm not going to read them right away, but I feel like a kid in the candy store. I love. And I'm already all excited and I. They said, well, can we, can we ship them next week? You know? No, no, I want them Friday. I want them in two days.

Yeah.

So I'm with you. Now, I want to be clear about something because I don't want this chat to feel the, that it's kind of self serving. Right. Obviously I'm a coach, mentor, trainer, but I don't want people to think that this is a commercial for what I do. And I want to be clear or maybe if you can clarify maybe the different areas and we can go into this, you know, if you want. But we're not just talking about business coaching. You're talking about professional development in general. Am I?

Totally. Yes. Yeah. And so that I would say in a lot of people think, oh, professional development, that means an eight hour workshop. Right. Or you know, one week long course, then I'm going to walk out with their certificate. And I have a much broader definition. So, you know, that is joining a Facebook group of other professionals in your niche, you know, or other writers. It's reading blogs that, that you find that are helpful. Podcasts, you know, those are all free and they're, they're kind of part of my regular weekly at least development, I would say just picking up things here and there that will, will benefit me. Then of course, books, like you said, those are going to cost some money, but they're not going to break the bank, if you will. And another thing, like free webinars, there's just so much content. Maybe there's even that's maybe the biggest challenge that people run into is that there's so much out there. So what should I focus on for my development?

Yeah, no, that's a good point. I'm glad you stressed that. So it's not just in one particular area, it's in many different areas. Could be also in your skills, your writing skills, marketing skills. We talked about business development. It could be in all kinds of aspects that are more granular than that. Working with clients, dealing with people, negotiations. And I love.

It's kind of endless.

It's endless. And I. But I love that you emphasize also that you know, it's not about investing. Sometimes means your time and attention, not always your financial resources. So that's a really good point. So you know, I'm curious about your some of the different types of things that you have done. You mentioned some things kind of offhanded, but you specifically like what are some of the things you've invested in? You've mentioned free stuff like communities, books that are not free, but any other. Can you give me some specific examples?

Yeah. So going into like being a writer who writes about hr, I feel like it's really important to know what's what in the world of hr. So I took on the professional development goal of getting my Society for Human Resource Management Certified professional certification. Whoo, that's a mouthful. It's called the SHRM cp and I avoided it for about three years. But then I just felt like it was going to be something that would, would help me not only as somebody who understands HR but would help me write about HR and potentially be enticing to prospects. So I signed up for the test and then I got a book, rather large one, and went through it self study on my own and I bought some $20 worth of exams, you know, practice exams, and went through it. And then hallelujah passed this past July and hopefully we'll never take that test again.

It sounds like it's pretty intense.

Yeah, yeah, so it was rather intense and I really hate tests. So it was a hurdle for me. But then at the other side, I feel great. And I was speaking with a prospect a few weeks ago and she said, oh yeah, I noticed you have that certification. And just to say how much professional development pays off, I signed a contract with them yesterday and wow, yeah, we'll be working with them. The contract is for six months. You know, assignments within that to be determined. But you know, it really like that. I always say it helps you not stagnate and that was a real example. I mean, and it kind of combined a lot of different things. Right. The book stuff, you know, testing my own knowledge. Yeah. And then the test. So.

Wow. And of course, in your industry, I'm assuming that that is a certification that people know what it is and they respect it.

Right, right. Yeah. And I thought. So this is another. I checked in with a few clients before. I was probably looking for excuses not to do it, frankly.

Do you really think it's worth it?

Yeah. Right. Let me put it to you this way. And I had two of them with a solid. Oh, yeah. You know, that. That's a big. That makes a big difference. So I couldn't ignore it.

That's great. That's great. You know what I'm. What I'm hearing here, now that you say this, I've really not thought about this too much before, but I think there's different levels or categories. If you kind of look at your business kind of as a supply chain or vertically, it could be professional development in terms of your skills, the work you do. Right. Or it could be in terms of the business side of your operation, how to grow your income, how to get better clients, how to price more effectively, be more productive in that. Right. So that kind of starts there. You could also look at what you did. Your example is one where. Well, you work in a specific industry, like that's your target market. So it could be training, certifications, professional development in that market, in that area of expertise in that domain.

Yeah, that's a great way. Yeah.

And one level below that, I think, is another possibility. So let's say that. And I'm just making this up, but let's say that you worked with software companies or companies that market to the food and beverage industry. And maybe you've become somewhat of an expert in that area because you've been writing on that topic for so long now. Again, your clients are tech companies or consultants, but. But they work in that particular industry. So now it's like twice removed from where you are. And let's just say you get a certification or you take some training in those areas of food and beverage. So now you have expertise that's valuable to your clients because it's related to the clients they work with, if that makes sense.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah. So maybe that's another possibility as well.

Yeah, it's. I mean, again, it's just endless, so long as you're. You're interested and have that drive and commitment to make it happen.

Well, let's talk about that, because I'M curious how you should know or how you know whom to trust or what to trust with your professional development, not just your dollars, but your time and energy. What do you look for? How do you vet the opportunities?

Yeah, that's actually, I mean it's something I've considered quite a bit and I kind of, I break it down into three things. Again, whether this is, you know, working with someone or a specific company or even if it's just, you know, some free opportunity is the three things alignment, proof, and then my own kind of internal ROI measurement. So um, for alignment, I, you know, I don't just jump in. I'm, you know, for example, if you're going to work with a particular person, I follow them or that organization on social, you know, I'm looking what they're saying, I'm reading what they're publishing. I try and go to free events that somebody might be sponsoring or download, you know, content. Because if you're creating a partnership or even trusting somebody with sharing their knowledge, you want to be in alignment with them. So really I spend a lot of time sort of vetting in that regard and then proof, you know, like this can be with authors or courses or just even I do this even with HBR articles. I'm like, are you really an expert?

Yeah.

Kind of look for those testimonials wherever you can find them of whatever knowledge I'm trying to take in that somebody else with some similarity to me has put it to use in a way that's benefited them.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Totally makes sense. Yeah. I see a lot of great stuff in big publications like that from academics and it depends on the topic. But sometimes I'm not sure if that's really the best person to give me advice. All they've done is, you know, done some research and run some studies, which is great, but that then I know how to take their information as opposed to street level from the trenches kind of experience.

Yeah, yeah. I saw actually a funny tweet the other day from somebody in the HR world was saying, yeah, you know, all these so called recruiting experts that we see online, how many of them have actually been recruiters? And I stopped and I thought, yeah, that's really, you know, you just have to know that somebody has that street cred like you said. So true. And then my roi. So I need to just know in my head that there's going to be benefit to whatever investment I'm making, whether it's my time, my money. And you know, I just this week I Bought a book on Amazon about taxes for small businesses in 2019, you know, and that was, quote, just $25. But I know that by spending that I better find some kind of tax cut or, you know, tax deduction that I can take that will pay for that investment, if you will.

So the book right there is a tax deduction. Does that count?

That's true. Thank you. Check, check.

There you go. I'm going to buy it so I can get a tax deduction.

Right. And I meant to say that another great way that I've developed is by getting kind of accountability partners. So I have somebody that I've been talking with on the phone for about six months. We're in the same industry and those calls are just gold. You know, we both get really great insights. We get brainstorms and you know, and then have that kind of water cooler benefit too. But she's just been fabulous for me and I compare it back to the ROI. So I'm getting a great ROI from that. But probably 20, we're in 2019, probably 2017, 2016. I had a different accountability partner and about four months in, I thought this is just not working. This is costing me time and I'm not really getting the benefit. So that's the great thing about being adult learners is you don't have to keep doing stuff if it's not working for you. So, you know, we ended that call.

That's. Yeah, there you go. It's not tied to anything. If it's not working, it's not working. I'm curious, a follow up question on the ROI thing. What's your feeling on the responsibility of roi? So let's just say you vetted an opportunity or a resource and you could tell, okay, I am confident that I can get a good return on investment there. What do you think in terms of your responsibility for getting that roi? Because obviously things don't just pay for themselves just by buying them or reading. Sometimes there's an implementation aspect of it, there's an effort aspect of it.

Right. And darn it, it is not just like a turnkey thing. Right, I know, yeah. So that like that's where I, I mean, and maybe I just take full ownership. I think it's up to me to make the most out of whatever I'm doing. And yeah, I think, you know, someone can only do so much for you or even, you know, a book. It's what you then do with that information that will give you the most roi. You know, I think people who are above board or you know, willing to say, hey, 30 days, this doesn't work for you, that's fine, let me know. But I think there's other people that, you know, they're. They go and they take part in a course or something for four or five months, and then they go back and say, oh, this didn't work. That's not cool. Right. You know, yeah, somebody leading a course or providing information for you, they. They're not, they can't hold our hands. So that's when you know that we used to Starbucks. It was learner driven. And I, you know, I think that's totally true in our own businesses as well.

Yeah, it's just taking charge. And one thing I like to do, Liz, is when I invest in something and I'm gonna. I got a business coach myself, and I've invested a lot of money, but the way I justified it to myself, well, first of all, I did a lot of the things you talked about, right? Alignment, proof, and then I determine roi. But then I set a goal. I said, I'm going to have this thing start paying for itself within 90 days and I'm going to own that. So that's going to be my responsibility. And it gave me something to. It gave me something really tangible to target because I know what the fees were. Right. So now it's just a matter of, okay, let me kind of measure every few weeks and make sure that I'm on track and if I'm not, okay, what's missing and what do I need to do? So I always felt like, and I've always felt this way about professional development, that I own that piece. Now, of course, they're responsible to me. Like, my business coach needs to help me when I ask for help and resources show up. They need to show up, but I really need to show up and I need to show up in the best way possible because I do see a lot of people who. You know what I call it, Liz? I call it outsourcing your problems. I see a lot of people who want to outsource their problems. It's like, you know what? I'm going to pay you a lot of money and you deal with it. That's kind of the attitude. And many times they're not even conscious of that.

Right.

That's, that's typically what it is. And you know, that certification you just invested a lot of time and energy into, you know. Yeah. I mean, you could put it in your title, you could put it on your website, but ultimately you need to find, figure out, okay, how am I going to leverage this best way possible? That's up to you.

Well, yeah, hopefully that, I mean, given that previous example, like when this person said, yeah, I've noticed you have that, and that was one reason I wanted to talk to you. It was like nirvana, because that, you know, that was one of my ultimate goals is that that would bring somebody in. So.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. So let's talk about one of the objections that I hear a lot of and it's that the whole time and energy factor. So how do you make time for professional development when you're already really busy and you feel like, you know what I'm already, it's like every week I don't have time to do any, you know, most of the things that I had on my to do list.

Right. Much less spend time.

Yeah.

Reading or. Yeah.

Add one more thing to.

Right, exactly. Yeah. So it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, that we're adults so we get to choose what, what we're learning. And that is where, you know, I find the most success is it has to be something that I'm personally invested in and passionate about. And if that's not the case, I probably shouldn't be doing it or, you know, learning about it. So it's that, you know, you need to know what you want to learn first of all and then how you like to learn because there's people that you know. My husband is like a podcast addict. I swear, like, can you just turn off the podcasts? But that's one of the best ways that he learns. So kind of find the right methods for you to learn and then the why. So once you have those things in place, it's a little bit easier. What I've done this year, previous years, I've been a little bit, again, kind of a learner junkie, just doing what I want whenever. But this year I've been really strategic in doing something that's going to be a year long program. So I've got that goal, if you will. Okay. This is going to be my, that focus for my learning and then I'm breaking it down into each quarter. I'm going to read one book and then I have my monthly accountability calls. So I've kind of. Each of those have different topics, if you will, and then some different methods for me to learn. And each of them I have a specific output that I hope to get from them.

I like, I like how you categorize them because that maybe gives me a little bit of structure to start thinking about how can I fill those categories? Those are three great categories. What would be an easy way? Like, do you recommend if somebody's thinking, okay, I'm not doing any of that right now. What would be maybe kind of an easy way to kind of grease the skids and kind of start walking down this path?

Yeah, that's it. So top of mind, I would say, you know, pick 30 minutes in your week where you are going to learn something new and then go. And it doesn't. So it doesn't have to be a big, huge thing. I think that's the other thing that hangs people up is, you know, going from zero to 60. I'm, you know, start out, you need to start small. So the 30 minutes is, oh, I'm going to read one blog article this week about topic X and then you're done.

Yeah, that feels doable.

Yes, doable. You don't feel guilty? The last thing I want people to feel about professional development is guilt. It should be exciting and energizing, you know, and maybe people, then they do the 30 minutes for a month and then they're like, well, gosh, I could really use a little bit more. So then look for another 30 minutes in your week. And then it just little by little, it becomes more of a natural, a natural thing. And the other thing is to just go about your day with a spirit of curiosity. And it's surprising how much development is out there just in our daily existence.

Agreed. Right. A quick article. Like you said, podcasts. These are things that could be happening while you're at the gym or driving or whatever. I love that idea of setting a time and setting something that feels extremely doable because I agree, once you get into it, you'll have some momentum. You'll probably do a little bit more. But if you just, if you tell yourself it's going to be two hours.

You'Re not going to do it.

Yeah, do it. I might add one more tip to that, which would be to do it in a day. That's where your head's kind of in that place. For me, that's Fridays. You know, Fridays tends to be that kind of development day because it's catch up. It's like taking some time to work on my business and it's free time. So I love doing. I know that if I schedule it on a Friday, we'll get done. If I schedule it on a Monday or Wednesday, forget it.

Interesting. Yeah. So it is. Yeah, it's paying attention to your own rhythms too. Totally.

Exactly. Exactly. I love that. I mean, how do you know when you. Is this something that really we should be doing all the time? Do you think there's seasons for this? Should we. Do we ever reach a point where we kind of need to slow that down or stop it or is it really, really for newbies? Right. How do you feel about that?

I had about four different answers in my head, so I think it's. So I've had situations where, like, I'll just be taken on way too much. And then I sense that, like, okay, you need to slow down and focus on adopting one new thing, learning one new thing really well, and then you'll know that, and then you move on to the next. Because I can, you know, you can get really unfocused, and then. Then the learning isn't as powerful, I'd say. But, yeah, I don't. I mean, I think, you know, somebody who's been freelancing for two days to somebody who's been freelancing for, you know, 30 years, we can all learn throughout our careers. And that's, you know, how they maintain their richness and keep us kind of as vibrant members of the business world. I think so, yeah. I think people should never stop learning, frankly.

You know, my wife's a nurse, and one of the things that I really admire about that profession, and one of several things, because there's no way I could be in the healthcare field, but especially as a healthcare provider, is they have to have so many hours of professional development time every year. And a lot of professions are like this. It's not just nursing, not just medicine, but I love that. And I think that's something many of us should be modeling and many other industries should be modeling that makes sure. So it does two things by making it a requirement. You're forced to think about it and sign up for stuff. And of course, you're not just going to sign up for the first thing that comes to mind. You're going to take some time to figure out, okay, where, you know, what would be the most interesting and helpful and valuable and practical thing. So it forces her to think about it. If there wasn't, it would be something we keep putting off.

Right.

The other thing I was going to mention, and I know this is going to sound really critical, it's not really meant to be a negative thing, but one of the. One of the things that I am sorry to see all the time in our business is that when it comes to writing and content marketing and so forth, especially with freelancers, the Barriers to entry are so low because technically what do you need? A computer, Internet connection, a cell phone. That it creates a mindset of not needing to invest in your business. I think subconsciously that sets you up for that kind of thinking. Hey, I got in so easily, you know, I got started so easily and cheaply. I don't really need to invest. You don't see that as much with other businesses where they had to, you know, where they had to buy a franchise, where they had to invest in equipment and people, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So I think it creates the wrong kind of thinking from the very start. I mean. Any thoughts? Do you agree? Do you think I'm, you know.

No, I, Yeah. And I, you know, and makes me realize that sort of internally as I'm, you know, networking or partnering with people, I'm using that kind of as a bar too like that. Oh yeah. This person is really invested, you know, both literally financially but just commitment wise. Right. And so that, that desire and willingness and drive to seek development, it does it, it raises your level of credibility in my mind too.

I agree. I agree. It can only if you do it right. I think it will only help you and in so many ways that maybe you can't even imagine right now. Liz, any, any parting thoughts or anything I didn't ask you about that you feel is important to put out there on this topic before we wrap up?

Well, I just had one little thought with something we just were talking about in that when you're doing this, you know, learning research, boosting up your skills, you can what you learn, you can share with prospects, with clients and that's just another value add for you as somebody that's a true business partner and helping other people with their businesses that they see that the value you bring with current and have to date knowledge. So yeah, it's another one of those sort of assets that you can put in your toolbox. It's not just for you, I guess that's my point. It's something that you can share and bring back to other people that will come back to you in return.

I think that's brilliant because not only are you then transferring that value over and that information and insights, but in a way you're also A marketing yourself.

Right.

And your, your added value and knowledge and B using as an excuse to touch base. I mean think about the articles you could write, the newsletters, the hey just came back from such and such and I thought of you. There was a session on X and you know, here's a quick note on something that I took down that I thought you'd find interesting. Like, it gives you so many different things that you could use and your stay in touch strategy. Right. Whether it's current clients, dormant clients, not yet ready prospects. I think it's brilliant. Liz. I hadn't thought about that.

Yeah. Sets you. Sets you apart really, too.

So it really does. And you're showing and demonstrating that you invest in yourself as a professional and in your business, which is.

Right.

Important to.

Goes back to what you were just saying about, you know, it demonstrates that. That level of professionalism that, you know. Yeah. You're not buying a franchise, but you are investing in your business. So.

Yeah, I think a lot of clients want to work with those types of people, you know, so. Because they do it themselves, right? They. They invest in themselves. And I think it would be more fun to work with a client who believes in that for themselves than it would be somebody who maybe doesn't care either way.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Go learn. That's right.

Yeah, yeah, go. No, this is. This is great. So you gave us some great ideas here, and I think you've made a really strong case for looking at it from many different angles. And like you said, you know, much of this is not necessarily paid stuff. This is not a commercial for my own stuff. This is really kind of taking a broader look at professional development and asking yourself, you know, if I'm not doing much of this, what can I do more of? How can I kind of ease into this if my schedule's already packed? How can I make it a habit and how can I leverage the heck out of it, you know, and make the right decisions? Right. Because it's not just about taking stuff and signing up for stuff. It's about being strategic about it. So you've given us a lot to work with here, Liz. Before we sign off, I just want to make sure you just tell us where we can learn more about you and your work.

Yeah, so I am. I have a website, Liz. Sheffieldcopywriting.com there's no C in my name. L I, Z S H E F I E L D. And I'm also on Twitter quite a bit. Lizheffield. Love conversations over there and happy to answer any questions if people have them or even to shout out ideas if you are looking for ways to find development. It's kind of one of those geeky things I like to figure out for folks.

Awesome. Great. We'll include links to that in the show notes. Liz, thank you so much. Love the topic and thank you for sharing these ideas with us.

Yeah, thank you, Ed.

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