#176: Sonia Simone on Becoming a Higher-Value Resource for Your Clients

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. Just a reminder that you can find details shown us for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 176. Those notes include a summary of our discussion as well as any links to resources we mentioned during the show. Content marketing is now a mainstream strategy. It's no longer a nice to have thing. This is a must do thing for most businesses in today's trust economy. So the good thing about this is that it's certainly increase the demand and huge opportunities for writers everywhere, but has also commoditized a lot of the work we do and given rise to content mills and rock bottom fees for writers and copywriters. Fortunately, we're not doomed. There's still lots of great opportunity, but only for writers who understand how to become a higher value resource for their clients. Also how to position themselves that way and in how to go after those clients. And that's what we're going to talk about today with my guest, Sonia Simone. Sonia was a founding partner of Copyblogger Media. Many of you are very familiar with the Copywriter blog and the business that it created. It's now called Rainmaker Digital and she was a founding partner back when it formed in 2010. Today she serves as the company's Chief Content Officer. Sonia is a very smart and seasoned content marketer. She has a long background in traditional marketing, both with startups and in more established corporate environments. And she certainly has a finger on the pulse of what's happening in content marketing and where we're headed. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation, especially if you're trying to take your business to a new level and start working for higher paying clients doing higher value work. Sonia, great to have you on the show. Welcome.

Well, it's just a delight. It's been a while since we've talked and I'm very grateful that you got in touch.

Oh man, the pleasure is mine. I'm very grateful that you came on and you know, you've been doing this for a long time and you've been a copy blogger for a while. But just in case there's somebody out there who's not familiar with you, why don't you give us a little bit of background, tell us about yourself and what you do there at Copy Blogger.

Yeah, I was, you know, I started out as a total copy blogger fangirl when I was a freelancer. Copy Blogger was one of the sites I read religiously to get strategy and, you know, ideas I could, I could. On techniques I could try for clients and got to know the founder, Brian Clark, and when he relaunched that company as a more company company called Copy Blogger Media, I was one of the founding partners at that time.

So when was that? What year was that roughly?

You know, I feel like, I feel like we've got to be coming up on 10 years. I mean, it's, it's been, you know, because it was kind of an evolution, but I think we've got to be coming up on. On 10 years. It was around 2010, nine, somewhere in there.

Okay.

And so, yeah, so I am a founding partner. I also, I call myself the executive publisher of the blog, the Copyblogger blog. These days I just, I oversee this strategy. We still meet once a week with my wonderful editor in chief and members of the team. And I also oversee the development of courses. So we have, you know, courses on copywriting and all those kind of good topics. Extent. I oversee that development as well. So just all things content. I am the, technically, I am the chief content officer for Copy Blogger Media.

Very cool. Very cool. I. And I didn't know that you started out as a fan girl.

Absolutely. Yeah.

I always assumed, I guess you and Brian had kind of knew each other from way back then and just no.

I had to, you know, and, and I, I always want people to know this because I want them to know that, you know, big trees grow from little seeds. The first time I tried to, you know, I wanted to write for Copyblogger, I had to drink like a whole glass of wine before I could work out the courage to ask him if I could maybe guest post one day, maybe possibly ever, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, no, I was very intimidated by Copy Blogger. And uh. Yeah, yeah, that's.

That's great. Um, I want to today talk with you a bit about content marketing and content marketing trends because I'm always interested to hear what people in your position who kind of have a finger on the pulse of what's going on are, Are seeing and maybe things that are, you find interesting, things that you think many of us should be paying attention to to help us maybe do better work, approach better clients, may our clients better. But before we get to maybe Some of the trends that we're going to be talking about, maybe to set the stage a bit, I think it's be important to talk about what some of the most common challenges are that content marketers are facing and have to overcome. Because I think once we understand that, then we can start we have a little bit of context for those. For those trends.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think actually that the trends and the challenge are two sides of one coin, which is really the biggest enduring story. Every year we look at it and say, I thought we had reached peak and now it's more. So is what's sometimes called content shock, which is just, there's so much content, you know, there's so much content being produced, and there is. There is more content published than realistically is ever going to get read or listened to or watched. And so if you just did math, you know, if you just said, well, okay, this many million, you know, pieces of content are produced and there's this many million people on the planet, and you divide, you know, it doesn't. The math doesn't work right. And that is the challenge. The challenge is getting read or heard because there is so much out there. The answer is, it's not a math question. You know, you don't just divide. The answer is to keep striving. And I gotta say, even in 2019, and I have real confidence this will be true in 2020, 2022. The answer is not necessarily to do something like weird or use some crazy new tool. The answer is just to keep digging back into doing a really good job, you know, and that sounds so simple. It sounds so, so simple, but people don't do it. So there is quite a bit of content being created by bots. I actually think that's softened up somewhat because work all that well, except for things like, you know, sports scores or, you know, weather. I mean, things that you can have a bot analyze, they produce that content. So what I'm seeing is actually more and more of a trend of kind of artisanal content, you could say, you know, content that's being crafted by a writer who. Who cares about writing. Not like they're writing for the New Yorker, but just, you know, you know, you know how to put a sentence together, you know how to make it interesting. You can tell a good story. You're careful with your language. You know, you. You think about language a little bit and you careful to be clear and keep it interesting. And that's the stuff that's winning, you know, that's the stuff that's getting the shares and that's the stuff that's getting. And not just getting shares, but getting results. You know, where people are actually reading it and then they go on and they maybe sign up for an email list and then read that copy and then they, you know, buy the product, buy the service, become a client, whatever it is.

Yeah. And in fact, that leads me to a follow up question then. As a marketer or as a writer working with a marketing team, where you're really trying to add value and bring suggestions to the table, what is the end goal here? And let's think about a B2B situation, right? What is the end goal here? Are you trying to get everyone to read this thing? Are you trying to get everyone to really engage or share? I mean, what, what are we really trying to accomplish?

Yeah, I just wrote about this on Copyblogger and I've become really passionate because I think a lot of times content, especially blog content, you know, people think of it as sort of fluffy and it's like, well, I have a WordPress calendar and it has spaces, so I'll get somebody to write something. You know, content marketing, really, there's a lot of goals that you can meet with content. A really strong content marketer is always on the lookout for new ways to do that. I think the most interesting goal for me as a business owner is using content to move prospects through stages of awareness. So, you know, some content is all about getting attention because people don't know you're there, they don't know your business exists. And so you get prospect attention. And that could be B2C or B2B. And then, you know, get them to understand that they have a problem that they should be addressing and give them the education to start to make early wins on solving that problem and then continue that education with case studies and white papers that really demonstrate how the solution plays a role in solving that problem. And then, you know, we get to what a lot of people think of more as just classic copywriting, which is closing the deal, making the sale, or helping the sales team make sure that, that, you know, that close gets made. So there's, there's a role for content all the way through there in educating people, keeping them engaged, lead maturation, all that good stuff. There's a lot of very grown up roles that content can play that go way beyond, you know, filling out a 1200 word blog post so the editorial calendar gets met.

Yeah, yeah. And let's face it, right, A lot of clients, that's what they're looking for. I got fodder. I need fodder. Here's my calendar. I need to fill these slots. Like you said. I'm curious for writers who. Freelance writers and copywriters who are trying to really kind of stand out and work with clients at a higher value level. You know, in terms of what you just described. You know, what's one good way that they can maybe add more value to the relationship as opposed to being an order taker and saying, okay, you need these things, I'll get them done.

Yeah. I mean, I. For one thing, I think that just asking yourself that question, almost like every day, you know, you wake up in the morning and you say, how do I. How do I drive the conversation with my clients? Instead of being the order taker, instead of just sort of, you know, hanging out on upwork and waiting to be approached. And I'm not, by the way. People find great clients on upwork, but you find great clients by driving the relationship and by being the strategic partner. So, you know, it's. There's. There's great resources. There's really good resources. Cultivate that mindset. Start taking courses. Start, you know, participating in programs. Your programs. Copy Blogger programs, there's other programs. Copyhackers has great programs. So first of all, educate yourself honestly. Even if you're broke, you know, there's a lot of stuff you can pick up for free.

So true.

And get not broke.

Yeah. You know, he's got to be resourceful.

Got to be resourceful. So educate yourself about the role the content plays in marketing strategy and then start using that language. And one of the things I always recommend to people based on my own experience is always be on the lookout for ammunition with clients. Because we've all got clients who think every client wants to drive the bus. Right? Of course they do. Everybody likes to drive the bus. And sometimes, you know, you'll not, not infrequently, you'll get a client who might be less savvy than you are about strategy. And they kind of, you know, they come in and they edit your work because they want it to sound a certain way, or they go in and undo all the stuff you did. I really like to collect ammunition for things like, okay, I want to use content marketing to drive stages of awareness. I'm going to go find, you know, solid articles about exactly that. I'll get PDFs made. I've got them in a folder, and I'm going to be sending them. I can send them proactively to clients as client outreach. Hey, you know, I've been doing this technique. I mean, I stole that one from you. You know, hey, I've been using this technique with my clients. It's getting really nice results. Let me know if you'd like to talk about that in a project. But also when clients push back and say, well, we think it would be better if it was twice as convoluted and you know, three times as wordy and came in at a readability index of like 87. You know, you can come back and say, here's what my research is saying. Can you talk to me about how your approach is, is going to help you reach the KPIs that we talked about? You know, you gotta be, you gotta be kind of the, the tough guy a little bit. But I didn't always, of course, super diplomatic. But arm yourself, arm yourself every day. And it's a process. It's not like one day you'll be done.

Yeah, no, this is about positioning yourself as a trusted advisor, which takes time. You have to earn that. I think you will do it with positioning at first, which creates a perception, but then you have to, you know.

You have to earn it.

Exactly. Yeah. So we could walk to talk. This is, yeah, this is, this is really great stuff. I think this is really the biggest way you can start getting out of that order taker role, which really, it's is a dead end street and start positioning yourself much more strategically and adding much more, much more value. So I, I love that in. Let's, let's get into some of these trends and we kind of started talking about those you mentioned. A few things you mentioned, you know, the fact that of course the content has grown exponentially really just in the past five years. It's, it's crazy how much it's taken off. And one important trend you mentioned, which I think is really interesting, this artisanal content, if you will, is having to kind of that story element, the humanity things that really are going to help it stand out. Any other interesting trends that you're, that you're seeing that you think are really noteworthy.

The other trend that a lot of people are certainly aware of, your clients are going to be aware of it is the longer content, more in depth content, which is great, right? I mean, it rewards you as the better positioned writer because if you get a really bottom rate freelancer to do that kind of content, you're not going to end up with, you know, a good result. The only thing I would watch out for, there are a lot of clients who believe that there's a magic word count or they believe that, you know, more is just always better, and they start padding, you know, they start creating kind of bloated. You know, you have to help, we have to help our clients see that the audience, the customer or the client is always the most important factor. So, you know, you don't create long content because it serves search engines, although it does. You create long content because it answers your prospects questions more effectively, you know, and positions your client's company in a better, in a better light. So, yeah, that's one, I think. You know, I like it mostly because in depth content is great. It's good. But I have also seen some clients coming back and they just want 2,500 words and they're not really. We have to kind of educate them on what that we have to help our clients see that the audience, the customer or the client is always the, the most important factor. So, you know, you don't create long content because it serves search engines, although it does. You create long content because it answer means.

Yeah, yeah. And in any opinion, in terms of like, when it comes to longer form content, is it better to go with kind of lay of the land, or is it better to take one topic in that broader spectrum and go deep there? Or is really the answer a combination of both?

Yeah, I think what you want to think about is the prospect, stage of awareness that that piece of content is designed for. So, yeah, you know, sometimes, sometimes it is the lay of the land. Sometimes you just want to create an overview. A lot of times those will do well on search. A lot of times they get good shares and then sometimes you just want to go really deep. The other thing that I, that I see, a lot of organizations get a little bit schizophrenic. So I always say, you know, your content sounds like Bob Ross and then your sales copy sounds like Tony Ross. Your prospects questions more effectively, you know, and position the robins. It's like that, you know, that's. Don't do that. You know, you're a client's company in a better, in a better light. So, yeah, that's one I think. You know, I like it mostly because in depth content is great. It's good. But I have also seen some clients coming back and they just. Now for the freelance writer, there's a, there's a real opportunity for you there to come in and keep a consistent tone through the whole life cycle and step up. You know, don't be afraid of, of the Conversion content. Don't be afraid of. You know what, you can learn to write sales pages. You really can. I know it's intimidating, but own the whole thing because that way you can keep that consistency of tone and just keep the. You really want to think about the customer journey. And I think content is amazing for customer journey where you take somebody all the way from. Somebody who doesn't know you from Adam. They don't know anything about the company. They never heard of you before. They see a Facebook ad or whatever it is, want 2,500 words. And they're not really. We have to kind of educate them on what that is. And you walk that prospect all the way through means.

Yeah, yeah. In, in any opinion, in terms of like when it comes to longer form content, is it better to go with kind of lay of the land to.

Referring their friends and, and talking you.

Up, you know, or is it better to take one topic in that broader spectrum and go deep the whole life cycle?

And the more of that you can own as a writer, I think the more value you bring in, the better rates you charge.

You know what, what I'm kind of drawing here in my notebook is it's kind of this trifecta of strategy.

Right.

And that's where the stages of customer awareness comes in. That's part of it. The content piece. And then you just mentioned the copy. Yeah, right. So many times. You're right. I find that most writers I work with, they're kind of focused on the content piece. You know, that's their area of comfort. They don't feel confident going and helping out with a strategy, even though they know quite a bit more than they think they do.

Yeah.

Or, and, or there. Or is really the answer a combination of both?

Yeah, I think.

Or they really don't feel comfortable with the copy aspect of it, writing some of the leads.

What you want to think about is the prospect stage of awareness that that piece of content is designed for. So yeah, you know, sometimes, sometimes it.

Is the lay of generation materials, landing pages, email campaigns and so forth. But you're right, sometimes you just want.

To create an overview. A lot of times those will do well on search.

And I think especially in B2B, what I see is that clients don't want to deal with a bunch of different writers. They're not looking to turn them over to see who's doing, who's going to get the next control. They want to form a relationship. Right. Long term relationship. Because then you become much more valuable and it's easier to Work with you?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's so interesting to me because we make a divide between content and, and then copy, you know, persuasive copy. And the content marketers I know are all, they all have imposter syndrome and they all like second guess the times they get good shares and then sometimes you just want to go themselves and they're all really, you know, I mean, maybe not every single one of them is great, but a lot of them are really, really solid and then the copy really deep. The other thing that I, that I see a lot of organizations get a little bit schizophrenic writers, the ones who focus on conversion copy, kind of a little arrogant, you know, a little bit, you know, like. So I always say, you know, your content sounds like Bob Ross and then your sales copy sounds like Tony Hotshot syndrome. And sometimes the hotshot doesn't work as hard. You know, sometimes the hotshot doesn't necessarily do all the voice of customer work that most content writers are really good at. So yeah, I would say, you know, if you are writing a lot of content, think about stepping up. Think about stepping up and owning more of that customer journey. Because a lot of the money is in the conversion side. And honestly, if you have one voice for all the content that paves the way for the sale and then you do Robins, it's like that, you know, that's, don't do that. You know, just totally change the voice for the conversion. It doesn't actually work as well. Now for the freelance writer, there's a, there's a real opportunity for you there to come in and keep a consistent tone through the whole.

Interesting. And I would agree with that. I also would say that it's easy.

Whole life cycle and step up, you know, don't be afraid of the here.

To get in the door with content. So if you're already there, you have trust. Right. You've earned that trust. And it's much easier to now get in the door with the copy, the conversion copy than it is to start with that if you don't really position yourself that way. I think if you already position yourself as a copywriter with a track record, that's one thing. But if content has been your thing, man, look to see where you have relationships right now.

Yeah, yeah. Because I think, I think conversion copy today version content, don't be afraid of, you know what, you can learn to write sales pages. You really can. You know, it's, it's really different than it was. You know, I Know, it's intimidating, but own the whole thing because that way you can keep that consistency of tone and just keep the. You really know. In the old direct mail days, you were paying for a stamp, you know, it had to do. You want to think about the customer journey and I think content is amazing for customer journey had to do all the work. It was very much a science. I have some good friends, you know, who are heavy duty direct marketing people. They're all guys, as it happens. Not all of those people were guys, but all the ones are my friends were guys. And that's a skill. It's a great skill. It's not as much how conversion works today because we all live in content all day long, all of us. You know, B2B. B2C, B2G. I spent a lot of years in B2G. There ain't no harder. There ain't no harder. There ain't no harder sale. It's so tough, you know. Yeah.

I would tell us about that. So, you know, you spend all your day in content. So like, how does that blend in is it's kind of a.

Where you take somebody all the way from somebody who doesn't know you from Adam. They don't know anything about the company. They never heard of you before. They see a Facebook ad or whatever it is.

Blend factor here.

I think it's really about understanding the holes and you walk that prospect all the way through to referring their friends and talking you up, you know, path to purchase and owning more of it. So you understand the whole. You understand how somebody goes from just having no clue, right? They see an ad on Facebook or they see a post on LinkedIn and they find a little bit of content and understand and own the whole path to purchase through to all the conversion content, which is where people make all the money, right? And make that one path instead of like all this nice, friendly content that's all happy and nice but maybe not so strategic. And then boom, they hit a sales piece that you paid 10 grand for and they convert. You know, I. That that process actually works better when it's more cohesive. And it can be really cohesive the whole life cycle. And the more of that you can own as a writer, I think the more value you bring and the better rates if one writer owns the whole thing. So think about being that writer. Church.

What I'm kind of drawing here in my notebook is it's kind of this trifecta of strategy and that's where the stages of customer awareness.

Think about being that writer.

Yeah, I think in the past, you're right. It's almost like everything was dependent or more than 90% on the conversion piece. Right. The sales piece. And now there's so much that has to happen before that that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. And I would actually mention one other one that's just been, of course, huge for the past 10 years or so, which is the lead. Nurturing.

Yes.

Right. So you're going to have people fall off this funnel. So how do you then stay in touch in a relevant and meaningful way? That's like a whole business in and of itself for writers.

No, it is. And I used to be, you know, I used to be in a role that could be considered marcom. And there are so many.

This comes in. That's part of it, the content piece. And then you just mentioned the copy. Yeah, right. So many times. You're right. I find that really talented people in.

That space, you know, writing newsletters and email and they're mostly women because it's.

Most writers I work with, they're kind of focused on the content piece, you know, that's their area of comfort. They don't feel confident going and helping out with.

Not that well paid, given how much work it is. And there's such an opportunity there to be more of a conversion copywriter for the whole life cycle of the customer. And it's really more a mindset. Mindset shift than anything else of really trying to get more of that share, you know, of the customer's ear. Yeah, it's, it's. There's a real opportunity, the strategy, even.

Though they know quite a bit more than they think they do.

Yeah.

Or, and, and I think a lot.

Of times the thing that keeps content writers from making more money and owning more of the conversion piece is just more confidence than anything else, actually. They'd be.

Or they really don't feel comfortable with the copy aspect of it, writing some.

Of the lead, great at it. Because they really understand relationships. They just don't necessarily.

Generation materials, landing pages, email campaign pains and so forth. But you're right, and I think especially in B2B, what I see is that.

Clients don't have the confidence, which is why, you know, I live like what you do. And what I try to do is help people have the confidence to own more of the customer journey because there's a lot more money at the late stages. Respect, you know, so true.

The confidence piece is massive. The, the interesting thing about confidence is that you don't wait for it to come you don't buy it off a shelf. And okay, now I have it, I'm going to try it. So that actually leads me to a question for you. I'm listening to this and I'm going, yeah, I'm nodding my head. This great, I love it. How do I even like what's kind of like a, maybe an easier path or maybe kind of a quick win approach to maybe start moving in that direction. Let's just talk about existing clients. Right?

It's right.

I'm kind of like I'm in this little corner. How do I start approaching them? I don't want to deal with a bunch of different writers. They're not looking to turn them over to see who's doing, who's going to get the next control. They want to form a relationship. Right. Long term relationship. Because then you become much more valuable and it's easier to work with you about some of this other stuff. And you know, that might involve maybe in some cases getting some more education.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's so interesting to.

Me, but my concern with just education being the first step always is that that could be never ending and that leads to procrastination. Well, I still need to take this other course.

Right.

And it's been two years and you haven't taken action.

Yeah. Because you don't. The first part is, is tricky, but you gotta have it, which is you're actually much better than you think you are most of the time. You actually. We have that curse of knowledge. So we know the whole, we know how big the problem set is. We know how many things there are to learn about writing for clients. Your client doesn't really know any of that. We take it for granted because we make a divide between content and, and then copy, you know, persuasive copy. And the content marketers I know are all, they all have imposter syndrome and they all like second guess themselves and they're all really, you know, I mean, maybe not every single one. Yeah, we take it for granted and so we see the whole picture and we're like really overwhelmed. We're like, I don't even have 1/2 of 1% of that. And the truth is, 1/2 of 1% could create a massive win for a client. Massive. So yeah, I think, you know, you wanna, you wanna find the balance. You might wanna take a just in time approach to educating yourself. So learn something like, you know, what you teach or what we teach. Learn a thing, pitch it to a clan, maybe pitch it to a clan. If you have, you know, one of them is great, but a lot of them are really, really solid. And then the copy imposter syndrome, or you have, you know, confidence issues, pitch it to a client and say, I want to try this out and I'm gonna, I'm gonna pitch it to you for, for a reduced fee and I want to try this out on our project. You know, can we, can we give this a shot, see how it works? The thing that will give you confidence is success. And if you put it into practice, you'll see it work or you'll tweak it. So do what you get writers, the ones who focus on conversion copy. Kind of a little arrogant, you know, a little bit, you know, like hot shot syndrome. And sometimes the hot shot doesn't work as hard. You know, sometimes the hot can, you know, do what you have to do. Some people listening to this just have the confidence and they're just going to try it out and that's going to be awesome. If you're one of those who are not so much that way, pitch it to a client and say, I, you know, I write about this really exciting conversion technique. I'd like to try it out with our content. I think it's going to do X, Y and Z. I like to offer it to do at an introductory, you know, great, what do you think? And, and put it out there, or put it on your own site and have your clients come back and say, could you do that? Because that's, that's cool. That thing. I like that shot doesn't necessarily do all the voice of customer work that most content writers are really good at. So, yeah, I would say, you know, if you, you know, that's another. If you're just too chicken. I'm very. You are writing a lot of content. Think about stepping up. So I, I, I, I, I feel, I feel people when they're filled. Chicken.

But you know what? I actually like that idea a lot, Sonia, that you just, I never thought about that.

If you think about stepping up and owning more of that customer journey because.

You create the page first, I think there's an added benefit to that, and that is it's going to help you get clear on what it is you're offering and what the benefit and advantage is and how you're going to present it.

Yeah.

So that is a first step. Not necessarily, because once I put it out there, people are going to ask me, but more is it's an exercise in getting clarity and then you're able to pitch it to that client with more confidence.

Yeah. And you have your own numbers, you know.

Sure.

You say, you say, hey, you know, the other thing I think that clients, you know, within limits are impressed by is when you say, well, I was, you know, a lot of the money is in the conversion side. And honestly, if you have one voice for all content that paves the way for the sale and then you just totally change the voice for the conversion, it doesn't actually work as well. Studying, you know, a new copywriting technique and these are the results I got from my site and I think it would work really well for your site. You want to give that a try, you know, let them know that you are a student of copywriting. That's what separates you from the zillion people on upwork or whatever it is today.

Interesting. I, and I would agree with that. I also would say that it's easier. It's about that.

Yeah, it's about, it's about that curiosity and about always like studying new things, trying them out. You could try them out for yourself. You can try them out. You might have a guinea pig client who's game, you know, for new stuff, stuff. And then you go to other clients and say, hey, you know, we got some pretty hot results here. You want me to try that out for you?

And just going back to that curse of knowledge thing. Sonia, you know, a lot of marketing managers and directors, right. And wouldn't you agree that we think of, of writing because that's our world, but they have so many different roles. Writing is just one of them. So you already get in the door with content. So if you're already there, you have trust, Right. You've earned that trust. And it's much easier to now get in the door with the copy, the conversion copy, than it is to. There's a very high probability that you know more about writing and copywriting in terms of what's working, what's happening, trends than they do. Because they have to be kind of a competent in all these different areas and they're never an expert in all of them.

Yeah, yeah, they. And unfortunately I have a.

To start with that if you don't really position yourself that way. I think if you already.

One of my students is going through this, now I'm coaching her through it. Sometimes, you know, that marketing manager is not have the skill that you have. And so sometimes we have to help them see, you know, that they're using.

Yourself as a, as a copywriter with a track record, that's one thing.

But if their Rewrite of your content that just came in at a readability index of like triple, you know, multiple PhD level is not. It sounds good to them, but that's not actually what's going to work for the forgetting for doing business. So, yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a fascinating process. But yeah, I think so often the.

Best content has been your thing, man. Look to see where you have relationships right now.

Yeah, yeah. Because I think, I think conversion copy today. A lot of the best writers I see, it's the funniest thing. Have the worst imposter syndrome. You know, it's, it's really different than it was, you know, and they're the quickest to say. They're the quickest to say, well, you know, the client, you know, they, you know, I don't know as much as they do. And actually you probably know a lot more than they do because you, you do this all day, every day. And you know, in the old direct mail days, you were paying for a stamp. You know, it had to do it. You know, read copywriting blogs and you listen to freelancing podcasts and sometimes it's really a question of owning your, owning your own skill.

It's interesting that you've noticed that because.

I've noticed you had to do all the work. It was very much a science. I have some good friends, you know, who are heavy duty direct marketing people. They're all guys.

Notice something very similar as well. In fact, some of my coaching clients with the most impressive credentials had the biggest confidence problems. I'm talking about advanced degrees from Ivy League schools and then corporate jobs and Fortune 100 companies that you're thinking, what? And you're talking to me.

And as it happens, not all of those people were guys, but all the.

Ones who are my friends, they really struggled with this. And I only highlight that because it's. If you're listening to this right now and you're that person, you need to know that that is common first and that you need to realize that this is holding you back and this is something you have to work on. It's not an overnight, guys.

And that's a skill. It's a great skill.

It's a thing. But man, the world is seeing you differently, believe me.

Yeah, yeah. And, and I think a lot of those folks tend to try and go it alone and they tend to try and tough it out, which is why they have three PhDs.

Yeah.

You know, but get, get some. Not as much how conversion works today. Because we other voices in your field who can help you see it, you know, join a group of writers, join a program all living content all day long. All of us, you know, B2B. B2C. You know, join Ed's program or somebody's program. B2G. I spent a lot of years in B2G. There ain't no harder. And get some objective evidence for how awesome you are, because usually you're pretty awesome. You know, the people who struggle with that tend to be really good because they have learned a lot. And yeah, just look for that. Look for that, you know, and there's. There's ways around it. And I think the easiest way around it is join a program, a community where there ain't no harder. There ain't no harder sale. It's so tough. You can get a. Somebody to hold a mirror up and say, no, actually, you know what? You're kind of a badass. You're pretty amazing, and you could, you could own this.

So I love that. So, Sonia, as we wrap up, any other advice, suggestions, or a tip that we didn't discuss that you feel is important for people.

You know.

Yeah, I. I would Tell us about that. So people to. To walk away with.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's such. Of course, it's a big topic. It's a big topic.

Oh, you know, you spend all your day in content. So, like, how does that blend in is. It's kind of a blend factor here.

I think it's really about understanding the whole. I think, you know, I think be aware of the very real cost of imposter syndrome and maybe just be aware of how common it is among the most capable people. So if you're thinking like, well, it's possible I might not be as pathetic as I am, go out and find, you know, a community, your community, somebody's community. Get. Get some reality checks there, your path to purchase and owning more of it. So you are probably actually pretty amazing. And the other thing is keep getting education and then keep acting on the education. Don't. Don't take 28,000 courses and then do nothing. Take a course, Try a thing. Take a course, try a thing. And that's how you understand the whole. You understand how somebody goes from just having no clue. That's how you get there. That's how all the really successful people, you know, right. They see an ad on Facebook or they see a post on LinkedIn that.

They'Re try a thing and also. Yeah. Pitch it to the, to the client.

Like, and they find a Little bit of content and understand and own the whole path.

Try to actually put it in practice and get paid for it. Right. So yeah, I think that's sound advice and this is great. Sonia. I. Before we leave, I want to make sure that folks know a little bit about what you guys do in terms of courses because you got some high, high quality stuff out there. So can you give us an idea of what it is you guys work with writers on?

Yeah. So over at Copy Blogger, we are definitely fleshing out that kind of course opportunities. So we do a lot of work helping people to purchase through to all the conversion content, which is where people make all the money become more strategic. One of the things in fact that we do is we teach a course that. Right. And make that one path instead of starts with people who have a more content point of view. Content writers, some of the most wonderful writers write a lot of content and helping those people own their colleague. All this nice, friendly content that's all happy and nice, but maybe not so strategic. And then boom, they hit a sales piece that you paid ten grand for. Copy skills. Because actually you have more copy skills than you think you do. So copyblogger.com we're kind of putting together what that page will look like, but we'll have something up there really shortly that you can see some of the opportunities for that. And then actually one of the things that I do for people is help them claim some of the writing mojo. Because sometimes people feel really confident about the business stuff and they don't feel good about the writing part. You know, they don't feel like, well, I'm not really a great writer or so I have a. It's actually a creative writing course that I teach that helps you take all that stuff that creative writing majors have fun with and apply it to content and they convert. You know, I. That that process actually works in copy.

So I like the sound of that.

Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. That's over at Remarkable. Communicate better when it's more cohesive. And it can be really cohesive. Which is my. Was my personal site even way before I started with Copyblogger.

So where can folks learn more about that one?

Remarkablecommunications.com yeah, remarkable if one writer owns the whole thing. So, you know, think about being that writer in communication dot com. I gotta get the reader right to set back up on the one without the hyphen. Think about being that writer.

Yeah, I think in the past you're right. It's. It's almost like.

And I just looked at it. Oh, it's not working. Yeah. And you can find that about there. And then copy blogger, of course. I mean if you guys don't know it yet, we have a lot of free advice.

Yes. So one thing I always loved about you guys is your free stuff is top notch. It's not fluff, you know, to get people just on the list. I mean it's like you could do some damage with your free stuff and.

I really like that. I'm going to use. I'm going to write that down and use it as a testimonial.

Yeah. There you go. It's awesome. It's awesome.

Thank you.

So we'll include all those links in the show notes and you guys should go check it out. Really high quality stuff. In fact one of the few that you know everything was dependent or more than 90% on the conversion piece. Right. The sales piece just trust in really relied on over the years so Sony and now there's so much that has to happen before that that it doesn't. Yeah. Thank you for coming on. Really enjoyed this conversation. This is fascinating and I love your take on all exists in a vacuum And I would actually mention one other one that's just been of course huge for the past 10 years and I appreciate you your sincerity and just sharing so much with us today.

Oh well, thanks. Yes, it's really been fun. Thank you so much.

Which is the lead Nurturing.

Yes.

Right. So you can have people fall off. The high income Business writing podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more@B2B launcher.com this funnel.

Yeah.

So how do you than stay in touch in a relevant and meaningful way that's like a whole business in and of itself for writers.

No, it is. And I used to be, you know, I used to be in a role that could be considered marcom and there are so many really talented people in that space, you know, writing newsletters and email and they're mostly women because it's not that well paid given how much work it is. And.