#177: Winnie Anderson on How Introverts Can Promote Themselves More Confidently

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. You can find detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com episode 177. Those notes include a summary of our discussion as well as any links to resources mentioned during the show. I consider myself more of an ambivert, which is sort of a combination of an introvert and an extrovert. But because I'm half introverted, I can understand why so many introverted writers resist marketing their services. The thought of putting themselves out there and touting their credentials or track record and achievements can be a very scary thing and it keeps many of them from doing what they need to do to grow their businesses with better clients. If that sounds like you, does that mean that you're doomed to fail as a self employed professional? Not at all. And my guest this week will explain why. Her name is Winnie Anderson and she's a coach for introverted service based professionals as well as the host of the Courageous Entrepreneur podcast. Her specialty is teaching people how to deal with a tug of war between knowing that they need to stand out, but really wanting not to stand out. In this episode, she explains why so many writers resist taking consistent action to stand out, even when they know it's important. She also talks about how standing out feels so uncomfortable, why it feels so uncomfortable for so many people, and how introverts can do this in a way that feels good to them while also attracting great opportunities and clients. And also how she's been able herself to overcome this resistance as an introvert. So without further ado, let's get to our interview today with Winnie Anderson. Hope you enjoy it. Hey Winnie, welcome to the show.

Hey Ed. Thanks so much for having me on. I'm excited to be here.

Well, it's great to have you on. I've been meaning to bring you on the show for a while and I'm excited that we're finally getting to talk about this important topic.

Yeah, me too.

Before we get to the questions, I want to make sure people understand, get an idea of who you are, what you do, what kind of work you focus on. So can you give us a little bit of background?

Yeah. I worked for the first third of my professional career. I worked in Human resources. My specialty areas were staffing, organizational development and training. And I worked in. I started my very first professional jobs were at a temporary service agency and I eventually worked in casinos. I worked for casino hotel in Atlantic City in human resources. I worked in manufacturing. And then I was working as the director of human resources for a nonprofit when I was in a terrible car accident and literally got knocked out of work. And in reinventing myself, I started to write, right. Because we all know writing is a great way to get attention. So I started writing and I got my first paid writing job, $50 for an article in the newspaper. And my article was selected as the COVID story for a job fair supplement. That led me to getting a long term ghost writing gig with a small agency, branding agency in South Jersey where I was living. And I eventually became their brand strategist and chief copywriter. And then I got laid off in 2008 like so many people did, and discovered how much I hated selling myself. I could sell anything and anybody else, but not me. So eventually I was able to get some really great gigs and I started doing more coaching and consulting than anything else. And now my work is really centered around coaching introverted service professionals to build their business, get the courage, confidence and clarity they need to really get their message out in a big way.

Oh, that's. I love that. What a great message and what a great target market in a very focused positioning. I am curious. So it sounds like up until 2008, that gig you had that was full time employment, right, with the agency?

Yeah, it was. I would say it was probably about 30 hours, which qualified as full time for them. I was really blessed when I found that job because it was, you know, those magical moments that are like accidents. And I'd sat across from this guy who owned this agency, whose name was Guy actually. And neither one of us ever went to these luncheons and we somehow sat across from each other. So, you know, when you, the first time you get published, you're so darn excited you'll send it to anybody you ever met once. And that's how he said, hey, I need help writing. You're a great writer, why don't you write for me? And from there it just blossomed. And yeah, I was able to work from my house and I was still recovering really from my car accident. So I needed to be able to manage my physical state during the day. So this let me go sit on the sofa and write or take a nap because I had a migraine. So it was really a great Opportunity.

But up until that point, it sounds like you didn't really need to sell yourself because you had worked in a traditional work environment, meaning as a traditional employee, which, you know, you have to still have to sell yourself, but not every week like you do when you're on your own. Right.

Yes. Very different.

Yeah. So this is a big shock to the system, especially in 2008, when not only do you have. You were out on your own suddenly, but this is a really bad time to be looking for clients. Exactly. So I'm just curious and I, you know, we're going to get to some, some really tangible tips, but I'm curious, how did that go? I mean, what I'm hearing is it kind of forced you to develop a set of skills and strategies and approaches because, I mean, you, you had no choice.

I didn't. And what, you know, there's an old saying that being self employed is the greatest personal development program you'll ever go through. You come face to face with your own crap. And that's really what happened to me. Losing your job. There's always a sense of, you go through this whole soul searching, why me? And if I was better at this, I wouldn't have been laid off. But of course, in 2008, it was just massive layoffs for everybody. This guy was just trying to feed his family. So it was certainly justifiable that he would let go anybody he needed to to keep his business open. So I, and then of course, I was also dealing with a brain injury. So the worst part about dealing with a brain injury is not, you know. Yeah, it's bad that your brain got scrambled and you have all of these issues that you're dealing with. But the worst part for me was the blow to my self esteem.

Yeah.

Because I didn't realize how much of my self identity and self worth was tied to the belief that I was smart.

Interesting. Yeah, I, I think that's something that we don't realize until we're faced with that. Right. It's a challenging situation like that. That's huge. Yeah.

So when I got laid off, I, I had to. Now I had to. I came face to face with my own stuff. And as my brain was healing and I described the brain as the giant filing cabinet. And when you have a blow to the head, all of your drawers get emptied out in the files get mixed up and thrown into any old drawer. So as the brain is making sense of its memories and taking in new information and matching it up with old information, it's saying, oh, look, here's some more trauma. You had that head thing. Well, here, here's some other stuff. So I really had to come face to face with what made selling myself difficult for me.

Wow.

And that's what I had to come over and it was hard. I won't get you.

Well, I want to switch gears a little bit and I think this will be a good segue into kind of the core of what we're going to be talking about. But I'm going to ask you something and this is something that might show my ignorance here. Okay. So just bear with me. But what is the difference or is there a difference between saying I'm introverted and I am shy? I just kind of want to get that out of the way and define that because I think there's a lot of confusion around that.

There is, there is. So intro. Not all introverts are shy and, but shy people can be introverted. So the difference is the best way of, of describing it is that I've ever seen is where you get your energy from. Introverts get their energy from within. Extroverts get their energy from without. So when I know. And what I call passionate introverts is a slightly different version. So there's a great TED Talk which I'll share with you and you can share in the show notes. This great TED Talk that talks about being a passionate introvert and the guy is just a textbook example. So when you're passionate about a subject, you can get on stage, maybe even you can talk to people about the thing because you love the thing. But we have to. Introverts have to gear themselves up to put forth the energy to expend it in a social interaction and it's draining for us. Where an extrovert would be in a social interaction and get energized from it, we tend to get drained from it. And that's not to mean that that social interaction is a negative. It just means that it takes more internal effort on our part.

And would you say that many or just some introverts are shy?

I. Okay, so this is going to be my personal opinion. I don't believe that many introverts are shy. I believe that there are lots of us that have an internal wound and that because we tend to be very, very self reflective and very, very analytical, some would say overly so, then we can, you know, this is where people who are also what are called HSPs, highly sensitive people, they we may tend to over explain in our head what happened and project onto a situation an emotion or experience that really wasn't intended. So it's a matter of we have to protect our energy. So, for example, when my husband comes home, there's nothing that I would like more than to go hide and be quiet for a while, whereas he is ready to talk about his day. I have to know that so that I have to get ready and so that I can fully pay attention to him when he comes in at 5 o'. Clock. Otherwise I'll go hide in a closet.

Yeah, no, that, in that, that defines it. Well, and the reason I wanted to bring that up is I wanted to make sure we set the stage for the things we're going to be talking about. And I think a lot of introverts, maybe they don't know they're introverted, they think they're just shy or vice versa. And I wanted to make sure people kind of self identify here. And for the extroverts or the ambiverts in the room, I think I'm really more of an ambivert, I should say. Then that kind of provides the right, I think, frame for discussion.

Yeah. And I'll give you a link to a free online personality test that will help people see their, you know, it's their Myers Briggs code, which can help them see where they fall. And of course, it's a spectrum. Right. Like so many things.

Yeah, absolutely. You can't put people in a specific box.

Yeah. Right.

So in your blog and your podcast, you talk about how important it is for introverts to kind of come out of hiding and actively promote themselves and their business. And I think a lot of us understand that we need to do that. But why is standing out so critical to building a successful freelance business?

Oh, Jesus. There's so many reasons, and it's especially critical for someone who is introverted. Right. So if you can stand out, it makes it easier for the buyer. So you want to, first of all, think about something that does stand out. Right. Whether it's a flower, it's a branch or whatever. Think about something that stands out. It catches the eye. Right. It entices you to come closer. It's interesting, it's remarkable. So for professionals, standing out, of course, it speaks to our positioning, being perceived as unique, and it speaks to being easy to find us among a sea of sameness. So when you make yourself stand out, in other words, you're easy to spot, easy to recognize, it's easier for the other person to recognize you as the right solution provider for them or not. So a lot of us See standing out as something that is difficult for us, but it's really not. It's just part of letting our own natural light shine. So when you think about this from the buyer's perspective, that you're just making it easier for them to choose, it gives you permission to communicate your uniqueness. And as we well know, it's a big part of being magnetic, right?

Yes. Yeah. I think the challenge for a lot of people, this is the feedback I've gotten from my audience is that it goes something like this. I was taught or I was raised not to stand out or not to brag or talk about myself. It's in my. It's ingrained in my personality and what I stand for. I mean, what would you say to that?

I would say, me too, sister. You know, especially. Especially for women and especially for women of a certain age. This is exactly how we were raised, and it is how we were condition with all of society through school. You know, just think about it. We were told exactly that. Don't be a show off. Don't be too big for your britches. Don't, you know, stand out and let somebody else shine. Right. Don't be showy. So you have to look at that as. That was somebody else's belief system that they then projected onto you. And as the little sponges that we all are when we're. When we're children, we then absorb that and it becomes anchored in as a belief. So then we start behaving in a way that reinforces that we go to school, we hear the same thing. And of course, as kids, we want nothing more than to fit in. Right. So then we get a job. Right? We stood out enough to get the job. But then there's this fine line. And as a corporate person, I know you can relate to this. There's a line between the person who stands out and shines because of the quality of their work and the person who stands out because they're a whiner, they're not a team player. There are all these negative connotations. So you also know that in corporate life, there's a limit to just how much you can speak out and voice your opinion before you're shut down. But there's also the fact that there are few of us who do our individual jobs in corporate life. So we do tend to shine naturally because we're easy to spot. I was one of only. I think there were two recruiters when I was a recruiter in the casino. And when I moved into the training department, I was One of again only two at first and then three. So easy to spot and identify. But this is, it's a belief, it's then conditioned behavior that over time feels like, and yes, can become kind of a personality trait. So what you want to do is think about is this now working for you or is it working against you? Because everything that made you a great employee, at some point you run the risk of having it hold you, actively holding you back. Perfectionism, people pleasing. Right. Those got me promoted. Right. But those things can then become negatives out on your own as an independent professional. And it was one of the biggest slaps in the face that I had when I came to this realization that those strategies that worked so well for me were now actively holding me back. So now you face the choice. Are you going to choose what you're willing to modify, work around what you find too hard to change or are you going to go get a job?

And by the way, what an incredible insight, the fact that those are survival mechanisms in the corporate world or really in many different traditional job situations, but they were exactly the opposite of what you need to succeed as a self employed professional. I'd never really thought about it that way. If you're a cog in the wheel, and I don't mean that in a negative term, but. Right, right. You're part of a team in your job. Essentially. I've always said I kind of picture somebody on a desk. The work comes in like a stack of paper on the left side of your desk and at the end of the day that stack of paper is on the right side. You're processing work. And I'm oversimplifying, but essentially that's what many workers are doing in what keeps you, what keeps you successful there, what helps you retain your job and climb that ladder is, is those things. Perfectionism is pleasing people is just kind of keeping quiet, not rocking the boat.

Going along to get along. Exactly.

Going along to get along. And that is a recipe for disaster as a freelancer. So. And you know what I'm hearing from you, Winnie, is that regardless of whether or not, because a lot of what you're saying applies to everybody, not just introverts. I know some extroverts who just don't want to really stand out or don't want to, it scares them to do some of these things. What I'm hearing is you have a choice, but if you choose not to stand out, that is the beginning of the end. If you continue that.

Yeah, yeah, it is. Now there are some ways around that, you know, so let's say you're somebody who truly becomes paralyzed at the thought of doing something to get attention. And I'm going to tell you, I'm going to plant the seed that if you really stop and reflect on this, there's something that's triggering you from the past. Because fear is a memory. There's the memory that's being triggered, and then there's the projecting that that bad thing is going to happen. I grew up in an abusive environment, so the last thing I wanted to do was stand out. I wanted to hide most of the time, right. So I had to really recognize and make the connection that trying to stand out, it was not hurtful anymore. It was not hurtful anymore. That that was just some kind of emotional trigger that I needed to recognize and learn that. All right, well, that's just a memory. You know, my mom is a beast, and she's not who I'm talking to. I'm going to be talking to this business owner. So, you know, and I've got something that is going to solve the problem. So I really believe that we need to constantly recognize and then challenge the stories that we tell ourselves. And perfection is a great one because we get. We're so tied up in corporate life. I know people who are fired for making mistakes, and I'm sure you do, too. So we're highly rewarded for being the exacting professionals that we are. And then we become terrified that, well, I can't make a mistake out on my own. We're not talking about making a mistake. You'll fix it. We're talking about there's the road to excellence, and we want to make sure we stay on the road to excellence and not get off into this perfectionism, which we'll never be able to achieve. It's really an excuse for not facing something that scares us.

I love this insight that fear is a memory. And that is so. Never thought of it that way. You know, I know it can feel that. I want to make sure. And I know you're not coming from this place that, hey, look, you just suck it up and get over it. Because it's really not that easy. Right?

It's not.

So maybe. And I know this. We could probably do three shows just on this topic. But if you were to. If somebody is. This is resonating with somebody right now and they're thinking, you know, I understand what you're saying. I need to do it. But. But how. It feels like this huge obstacle. Do you have any tips or suggestions that might help someone kind of uncover the root cause of this. Because I think I agree with you. Once you identify it, it's easier to deal with it, to manage it. You know the source.

That's exactly right. I'll tell you the exact thing that I did. It is not easy. I wish I could say by the end of this show, you will be cured. You will be fearless.

That would be amazing.

You will be I. From my mouth to God's ear, I hope. But I will tell you the single biggest aha That I had. And then this put me on the journey. And this more than anything else was what brought me to where I am today. And I won't. You know, I'm not going to tell you that I don't get nervous. I do. But you know that old adage of you want the butterflies to fly in formation? That's really what. I'm able to control them much better now. So here's the thing. There are 22 fears that we all share. Those 22 fears can be summed up into about three or four. The worst fear of all is that we're unworthy. That is the worst fear of all. So here is the single biggest thing you can do to begin the journey, to unravel this, and to begin to recognize you are worthy. And this is why the, the ending line, the close of my show is always remember, you deserve all the success you dream of. And that's because you, you deserve it. You're worthy. So that in. I know we've all read the book Think and Grow Rich, right? I read that book 15 stinking times literally before I finally, this, this phrase kept haunting me. And it was detached from the outcome, detach from the outcome. Well, what does it mean to be attached? It means that your sense of self is tied to the result that you produce. So that means. And I've had clients tell me this. I've had clients tell me this in tears, that when somebody tells me no, it means I am not a good person. It means that I didn't deserve what they, you know, what I wanted, that I hear all, that I'm a bad person. No, it doesn't. Somebody telling you no means that it can mean a million things. And most of the time it means that they're afraid of the opportunity of change that you are offering them. And I know a lot of your folks deal with in B2B, right? And corporate life. So now put yourself in the shoes of the person that you're selling to. Chances are good that person, as you Said is a cog in the wheel. They're a manager. You're lucky if you get to talk to somebody at the director level. Right. So that person's career is on the line. They're risking their professional life. There's a reason why we in human resources refer to termination as capital punishment.

Yeah. Well, in Risk is something that I think many writers aren't really leveraging. The fact that you need to focus on how you are the lower risk option because of that. You're right.

It's exactly right. And I think it's also why we want to make that person's life easier. We want to keep our message simple so they could repeat it because they're really our advocate inside their organization. So when you can recognize that you're attached to the outcome and your sense of worthiness is attached to whether or not that person hires you, that's when you have to say, wait a minute. First of all, the sun's still going to come up probably tomorrow, right?

Yeah.

You know, I hope that we can all say this. There is somebody in our life who is going to love us regardless of whether we get that contract or not. It might feel and get a pet, because they'll always love you. It might feel that you need this money. But you know what? I'll bet there's somebody who would help you. So when you are able to come from a really good place of self love and self respect and appreciation and value, and you're able to say, listen, I have this cure for what ails you, I have this solution and that person, their fears are probably bigger than yours, and that's why they didn't say yes to you. They're going to tell you it's price. And we all know that's just an excuse. So it really is. When I was able to recognize my sisters would love me, my husband would love me, my cats will always love me and okay, and you made a choice for somebody else. That was your decision. And I've had clients come back to me and say, I should have hired you.

Yeah, yeah. I am with you on the outcome thing. I believe it's a very Buddhist thing where it's like, it's not about the outcome, it's about the journey and the moment you become attached to the outcome. I think there's a saying somewhere in there about you're going to be a very unhappy person for the rest of your life if that's the way you look at things.

Right. When you look for joy, satisfaction, success outside of you, you'll always be chasing it. That's why I love the analogy Wayne Dyer used to use this of an acorn. That the acorn has inside of itself the potential not just for a mighty oak, it has the potential of a mighty forest. That's the potential for our own success. We start out with success inside us, and our job is to provide the fertilizer, the conditions that allow it to grow out and flourish.

I love that you mentioned that. You know, the. The whole fear thing is based on their two. 22 different fears. You can group them about three different categories. The fear that we're unworthy is probably the biggest one. Any others you feel that we should discuss that really kind of play into this that maybe you need to pay attention to?

Yes, I do. It just came up this morning by a client and that is the fear that you're unsafe. So the corresponding need for that then is security. And security covers a few things. One is surety, and that is that when I do X, y will happen. So when I make, for example, you know, for those of us who sell things online, when I make an offer, people will buy. Sometimes you make an offer, as you well know. CRICKETS CHIRP Right. So it is this combination of I am unworthy and I am unsafe that will combine for a very messy gumbo, as one of my old bosses used to say.

So in terms of how this applies to the standing out concept, I'm assuming that one flavor of that is, who am I? Because I'm unworthy, I don't deserve putting myself out there and standing out. And then this fear of this is not going to work out and it's all going to fail and I'm going to be living in the streets, I'm unsafe.

That's exactly right. So then you get into cognitive distortions, right? There are all these ways that our thoughts, thoughts tend to be distorted over time. And what you just described is very common catastrophic thinking. Because you're not thinking, oh, well, maybe I will pay my bill late this month, we go to, I'm going into bankruptcy. And you know, people, worst case scenario. That's exactly right. Right.

Beyond worst case scenario.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It will lead to nuclear war.

Yeah, right, right.

Okay, so this, this is starting to really kind of gel. I. You know, at least for me, is this whole idea that this is rooted in. This goes beyond personality, Winnie, is what I'm hearing. This is really upbringing conditioning in a lot of factors that maybe we're not even recognizing. What I'm getting out of this is, look it really pays to kind of journal on this, really, and think about this, right? Where is this coming from?

Yeah, yeah. So as soon as you hear in your head, I can't do that because. Or that's just the way I am, I want you to stop and challenge that belief. And that's what you really want to do. So you want to ask yourself three questions, and let's see if I can remember them. One is, what's the lie you're telling yourself? The next is, where did that lie come from? And then finally is, what's the real truth?

Oh, that's good.

And then you can really. You can go, that's ridiculous. I'm just making things up now.

Yeah, yeah. And the grand finale of that is to take that page or pages and just rip them out and toss them or burn them.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then you also really want to police your own environment. Because if you've got things that are contributing to this negative vibe and you've got people, right, because there are people who love to have a pity party, and women, I'm sorry, but we could, you know, part of us, part of our strength is relationship building. And we can get into the Jack Canfield calls it the Ain't it awful club, where, you know, this is what. This bad thing happened to me. Oh, yeah. Well, this happened to me. Right. And that's part of our storytelling and relationship building. But it can also keep us fueled in that negativity. So you really need to get some new friends.

Yeah. All right. So this is great, Winnie. I'm so digging this. I want to take this as we start wrapping up in a kind of. I want to progress down this path and keep going down that solution path. And I don't know if this is maybe much to ask, but. But is there a way that introverts can stand out in a way that feels good to them? So can I have the best of both worlds or will this always feel, or at least initially, really, really uncomfortable? So I want to, you know, is there a way that I could do it so it feels good and gives me the results that I want?

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the good news. So all of that stuff that you hear about, you have to take massive action and you have to do something that's like completely different is false. Studies have actually shown that will send you right into terror and self sabotage. What actually works are what I call micro movements. But you do want to take fast action, but you want to take a small action because that's going to tell Your brain, I got a win. And it's going to make you feel really good, and then that's going to build momentum. So what you want to do is you want to think about what do you do well and what are you doing, comfortable doing. But that may be a little bit of a stretch for you, right? So one simple thing that many of us can do, even the most introverted, you can probably make a list of the types of organizations that you would really like to work for and then think about, okay, this is what I offer for those organizations. Who else do they need? And then see if you can find some other consultants who are doing well, not people who are, you know, have no clients. You want to find other people who are doing well, and you want to build relationships with them. This way you can. And you want to refer them, obviously. So you're going to develop these referral partnerships and you want to stay top of mind with your referrals, not meet somebody one time and then why did they never refer me? That's not the way it works. Right. But if relationship building comes naturally for you, this is a great strategy for you to first begin to do. Then the next one. Someone who was just on your show, whose name escapes me. She just talked about this, packaging your services.

Oh, Maureen.

Pharma Maureen, Right. And that way, it's like buying Cheerios, right? It's easier for you to sell and easier for that person to buy because they can recognize I'm going to get this right. And it also is a way for you then to escalate the contract because you're then selling them in individual pieces. But you can start packaging your services and differentiate yourself that way. Another way, though, is to go an inch wide and a mile deep, as the saying goes. You want to narrow your focus and really become. I like to use doctors as the example for this because they get it right. I had a heart problem, or I thought it was a heart problem several months ago. I knew I wanted a female cardiologist, and she had to be 20 minutes from my house. And so there's a female cardiologist, right. I know exactly what I wanted. So doctors, they're magnets. So you can borrow some of their thinking and really become a specialist in that area and then just build out your network. So you have people who say, well, I don't do that, so go to them. Right. So that makes it easier for you to stand out as well. And then really, again, think about what you're good at. I'll bet most of the People listening are good at writing. Right. So articles are awesome. And also, I always think about that other person. Remember, nobody wants to hire a writer. Nobody wants to interview all these writers. Nobody wants to do. And they don't even know how to do it right. So create a buyer's guide. The 10 mistakes people make hiring a fill in the blank, the 10 questions you must ask, the value added piece.

Some kind of lead magnet.

Yeah, right, right. And that kind of thing is going to help somebody. It's going to screen out the people you don't want to work with anyway, and it's going to help people say, you know what that is? Okay, I get it now. That's what I need to think about. It's not what I was going to think about, so, well, I'm going to talk to this person. So you want to make things as easy for the potential buyer as you possibly can.

Well, and I think that's brilliant. I would add to that that you can kind of surround that lead magnet with great content that's related to what you do and where you add value, too. That's where a lot of people who don't want to stand out, they feel really weird about this. This is one of the things they're avoiding in my whole thing is, look, if you got to put your name and your expertise out there on a regular basis, because you look at it this way, you're making it easier for your prospects to find you and to connect with you. I agree with you 100%. They don't have time to scour the planet and then, you know, kind of drill down and narrow it down to a short list and then find, like, they want you to make it easy for them to say yes.

Right? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So if you can think of, you know, it's a sample. So you've got to give them a sample, whether it's in stuff you've done for somebody else, whether it's, you know, it's a portfolio, it's your own lead magnet, whatever it is you're doing. And then often, you know, there are times when I know I'm not the world's greatest writer, but I try to be so easy to work with that, you know, it's just easier to work with you because I know you'll do whatever I ask you. You do changes quickly. You are just nice to work with. That really does go a long way. Because remember, the person you're selling to probably has a crappy job, probably hates their job. So the more brightness you can bring into their life, they're gonna, they're gonna want it. Once they get you, they're not gonna let you go. So that's another piece is once you have someone, they may very well then be your advocate inside the organization or to their own colleagues.

Now I want to, before we wrap up, you were able to land a long term project recently with just a very short email. I'm just really intrigued by this. I was wondering if you could walk us through, explain what you did and walk us through exactly what you put out there.

So the best way to stand out, in my opinion, is to, especially for those people who are on their second or third career act, right? You have a history and a knowledge of an industry and even of a profession. So one of the best ways to stand out is to go to a vendor, right? So my background was in human resources. And when I got laid off from my agency, you know, man, the last thing I want to do is go pedal my paper somewhere because I hate it and I'm not good at it. So I thought, I wonder if there's any agency that sells to HR departments. At the time, I had my master's degree in human resources, graduated in the top of the class. I had been certified as a Senior Professional in HR. And I held that certification for about 15 years. So I just did some googling and I found an agency. That's what they did. They marketed stuff to HR departments. So I looked on their website. You might find this hard to believe. Not one person on their staff had worked in human resources. Nobody. Nobody. And they had, you know, all their writers there, they had all their creative people. Nobody had HR experience. So I sent the following email. I found the person I needed to send it to. And I said, and the subject line was something like, how to help your clients sell more faster. And the body said, I am a senior professional in human resources with a master's in HR and 20 years of experience in human resources. I'm also an award winning copywriter. And I mentioned a recent big win that I had. I created a sales kit that sold $400,000 worth of new business in four months. I mentioned that I noticed that you have no staff members with HR experience. I'm sure since I was the person you were selling to, I'm sure I could help you help your clients sell more of what they offer. And I sent that email in 30 minutes. I had a response. I had an appointment in about two hours for a chat like this. I had the job in less than four hours.

Wow, that's crazy. Going back to your email, did you have a call to action? Did you ask them to something or you just left it at that?

Yeah, I said, I said, I think, can I help you? And would love to chat with you. So that was pretty much it.

Gotcha. Okay.

He hit reply in less than 30 minutes. Yep.

So I, I, that's brilliant. Essentially what you did is you said, okay, I've been in this role or in this industry, and who are the vendors that sell to my industry? Right. Because of my perspective, I, I've been on the other side. I, I am the people they're trying to sell to.

Right.

I understand. I got that different, that perspective. I can therefore help them connect with that audience better because I've been their audience.

Right.

And then you reach out to agencies that basically do that and they work with clients who are trying to sell to your, to your audience. And Yeah, I think, yeah.

And especially look, see if they do have their staff listed. See if you can identify a gap. You know, you can. Might take you a little bit longer than it took me to do some research.

And they don't have to have like a, you know, a huge gap. I mean, honestly, I don't think it really matters because you don't, you don't know.

Yeah, right. That's exactly right. You bring some, you bring the fact of that you have literally been in the chair that they're trying to sell to. And that to me, that's priceless.

Yeah.

And the information that I was able to bring, the insight I was able to bring, it really brought money in for this business, for this agency. So, so, yeah, it worked.

This is great. Winnie, you've given us a ton of value here. Lots of tips, ideas that I know are going to give our listeners some really great value, and they can sit down with these questions and some of these thoughts and start getting value right away from it. I think this is the kind of thing many listeners will need to think through and journal on and let these ideas and responses incubate. That's where the real magic will come from, I feel. So. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I want to make sure listeners know where they can learn more about you and connect with you.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. WinnieAnderson.com that's it.

Simple, simple. So check it out, guys. She's wonderful. She's got a great podcast. In fact, why don't you tell us a little bit about your podcast?

Yeah. The Courageous Entrepreneur show has started. Season three. Featuring Ed, which was awesome. A great, great episode. And the show is designed to share information and inspiration to folks so they can overcome limiting beliefs, stand out when they hate standing out, sell their services when they hate selling. And it features great interviews with people who've overcome challenges to create success on their terms. And it features experts who also share insight and actionable tips to overcome whatever's blocking you.

Awesome. And people can find the show there on that URL?

Yeah, on the website. They can also find it on itunes@the couragepodcast.com Perfect.

Well, Winnie, thank you again.

You're welcome.

Love our conversation.

Me too.

The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B to B Business Launcher. Learn more@b2b launcher.com.