#221: Kelly Glover on How to Build Your Trust and Credibility as a Writer by Being a Guest on Pod...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. You can find detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 221. Those notes include a summary of our discussion as well as any links to resources we mentioned during the show. Now, when it comes to marketing their business, one of the biggest frustrations I hear from writers and copywriters is how many competing options are faced with. After a while, every strategy just sounds good, sounds like something you should be doing. But let's face it, there's only so much time to deploy all of these ideas. So which strategies should you focus on? Which ones should you just forget about or at least put on hold for now? Too often the result is complete overwhelm or FOMO fear of missing out, inaction, which of course, when you don't act, that creates strong feelings of guilt and it leads to poor results. Today I'm going to share a marketing strategy you may not have considered in the past. But rather than tell you that you must do this, I don't want to add to the problem. Okay. My guess is going to explain why you might want to consider it at some point and how you can get started by taking some simple baby steps. Joining me today is PR powerhouse Kelly Glover. Kelly is a CEO of the Talent Squad, which is a podcast booking and publicity agency. She has spent almost two decades working in media as a talent agent, radio host, podcast producer, and celebrity interviewer. We're talking people at the level of John Travolta and Joaquin Phoenix. Just to kind of give you an idea. Her wide ranging experiences in media have allowed her to strategize like a marketer, act like a publicist, and teach business owners how to get from pitch to publish so they can get more clients and build their brand. So she's got a very unique set of skills. In this discussion, Kelly and I talk about what makes podcasting such a powerful medium for creative professionals like us who depend so much on our personal brand to grow our businesses. She specifically is going to explain why your prospects are actually listening to podcasts and why being a guest on a few select shows will still make a big impact even when a prospect or some of your prospects are not podcast listeners. The key steps you need to take to move in the right direction without overwhelming yourself, how to pitch yourself and your topic, ideas to the right shows, how to build on each win you get, and then where podcasting is heading and why we've yet to reach the peak of the growth curve. I think you're really going to get a ton out of this episode, even if you haven't considered this before or even if you're coming into it with the mindset of eh, I don't think that's really for me. Give it a listen. I know you'll learn a few ideas and walk away inspired and thinking about how you can maybe approach this or other similar strategies to get better results. Kelly, welcome. It's great to have you here.

Thank you, Ed. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the show.

Well, I'm excited to talk with you. It's something we've been planning on doing here for a while. I'm glad we're able to make this work. And this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart. I feel like the podcast, my podcast is a huge part of what's enabled me to grow over the past seven years. And I think it's something that a lot of writers and copywriters overlook as a marketing strategy, as a way to build trust and credibility with their clients. So I'm excited to address this topic and before we do so, I'd like to learn a little bit more about you. I mean, I know your story, but I was hoping you could maybe give the audience a bit about what you do today, what kind of work you do, what kind of clients you work with, and then tell us how you got here because you got a really cool background, you've done some really interesting things.

So I'm Kelly Glover. I run the Talent squad and that is a podcast guest booking agency. So we book podcast tours. Now. You might notice my accent. I am from Australia, but I went to college in Ohio, so I have a university degree from Ohio University in Athens, Ohio.

Wow.

A very long time ago and I started out in Hollywood, so my first internship was for Miramax. I also interviewed celebrities on the red carpet and ended up working in talent agencies, got into radio, was a syndicated radio announcer plus size blogger, ended up losing 200 pounds, went viral and got into podcasting. Well, I got started in 2007 in podcasting, but I started professionally full time as a, you know, that was my full time paying gig in 2014 as a show notes writer. Moved on to guest booker and then producer and started my own agency, the talent squad, in 2017. So that's your 20 year snapshot from before podcasts were invented, before anyone had a mobile phone, before Facebook was invented, all the way through to podcast guest booking agent full time.

That's a lot. What a journey. And I'm curious. Well, I got several questions to ask you about podcasting itself, but what was it about the booking side of things that was really attractive to you? How did you move in that direction?

Yeah, so I was working for a podcast guest booking agency and it was just a talent that I had. I'm very good at. It's just, you know what, it's one element of what a producer does. And I was a producer and having a radio background, I really understood what people were looking for, how to pitch shows and how to speak to producers, because I was one. So I think it was something I was good at and something I really liked. So it was a combination of everything plus podcasting. Everything's a niche. You get to learn all these different things. So to me, it's the best of everything in one job.

Well, let's talk a little bit about podcasting and being you're using podcasting as part of a content marketing strategy. So what do you feel makes podcasting such a great vehicle for getting your message out there? Is this a bubble? Is this thing real? Is this thing have true value or is it going to just fade away like so many the things happened in the past?

It's really radio delivered on demand in a niche format instead of broadcasting. Boil down. That's what podcasting is. It's audio and it's a way of packaging storytelling, which has been done through the ages before any technology was done. People love listening to people's voices because you can hear how excited they are. You can hear how fast they speak, you can hear what words they are. Are they full of it? Are they absolutely genuine? There's a lot of information you can get in a short period of time. And I know we're dealing with, you know, your audience does the written word, and I get that. But with so much content these days that everybody is getting, you might be lucky if someone reads a headline or half a blog post. But with podcasting, people consider it as a full episode. So you hear of people often say, oh, I'm in the middle of a podcast, where you won't hear them say, I'm in the middle of a blog post. I'm in the middle of an Instagram post. Or in the middle of a video. So people view it like a book, where they're going to start at the beginning and finish at the ending, and they consume the whole product. So getting 30 or 60 minutes in somebody's ears is a lot of time. And it really escalates that know, like and trust factor in ways that other media can't.

One of the things that I hear from people, especially my tribe writers and copywriters, is, you know, I guess I get how people and why people would listen to some of these NPR podcasts and some of these entertainment shows, but the people actually listen to more marketing information, stuff that might seem boring on the surface. I know a lot of people get into podcasting as a listener with these entertainment shows, but what about the kind of the business shows? Is that really a thing?

Absolutely. It's a way. And we spoke in the green room before this as a prime example of this, which is when I was looking at your show and all the topics. There's so many, oh, I want to know that. Oh, I want to learn that. I want to learn that. Oh, that's seven minutes. That's 23 minutes. And I know it's going to be all the good stuff boiled down into a short period of time in something that I can understand while I'm doing something else. That is the value of podcasting. And it's a dorky word and I really dislike it, but it's so, so true. And that's edutainment. People like, yes, a lot of people love a true crime podcast. Don't get me wrong, hugely popular. But what about how I built this guy, Roz? You know, what about startup? There's a lot of information in podcasting. People want to learn something and be entertained at the same time. So it's a huge educational platform as well.

Couldn't agree more. One of the things that I think people need to understand is, like you said earlier, sure, you write for a living, but you might read a lot. I think you underestimate how much people listen to things and how much idle time they have. Because for me, podcasting has always been a medium that serves. It does really well with idle time as opposed to, I think a lot of people, when they first hear about it, it's like, well, I don't have time to sit there and listen to a podcast. I guess they're assuming I got to sit there on my desk and listen to a podcast.

That's the difference about the visual and the audio. The visual, you have to have your eyes on it. But we're even finding that people, even with YouTube, will be listening to the YouTube instead of watching it while they're doing something else. They might start out watching it, but then they'll end up listening to it. And with the audio elements, you're right. Like, it's easy to binge like you do on Netflix, but you can do something else. So your time is not specifically. It's not the only thing you can do while you're listening to a podcast and you're talking about the benefits before. Well, you know, it's about authority, credibility, reputation. It's about being known. It's about the influence. It's about your personal brand. And a lot of times writers, I think, are commoditized. This is a way to separate that and show the difference between you and everybody else. And, you know, why should I pick you? Because the dentist is a dentist. I just assume that they can do the thing. But I'm going to pick the person that I like. And that's very much the same with writers.

Kelly. It hit me a couple years after I started podcasting because I started watching more and more Netflix and I would watch these series and I found myself at the end of, I don't know, four or five shows or episodes in one season. I felt like I knew the characters. I felt like I really knew Kevin Spacey or Breaking Bad. I forget his name. Right.

I've watched Breaking Bad three times. Walter White.

Walter White, that's right. And it's shameful that I forgot. I think that's probably my favorite show ever.

Heisenberg. Say my name. Don't get me started. I will quote.

So you know what I'm talking about, right? It's not like a movie. A movie, two hours. You form a bond with the characters. But in a serial type situation where we're talking about a dozen episodes a season and then, of course, three seasons and sometimes, let's face it, we binge watch this stuff. So we'll watch like 36 episodes of something in a few weeks. You really connect with the characters. And it hit me, it's like, you know what? Podcasting is very similar. You really form a bond with that host, with that person, isn't it?

Absolutely. And the other thing is, it's a warm introduction from the host. So you're bringing a guest on. You've hand selected that guest. So you have one show a week, that's 52 episodes a year. By already having a guest on, you're saying, okay, this is Kelly Glover. Yep. She's okay with me. I'm happy to introduce her to you. That is huge. So it's already gone through one vetting process with the audience. And yeah, so it's like a warm introduction. And like we said, the expediting of the know like and trust factor, you can hear pretty quickly. If you. And if you don't connect with someone, that's good because it rules both of you out from each other's lives and move on. That's perfectly fine. Not everybody is for everyone, and that makes it even better. And with podcasting, you have access to niche, established and curated audiences. So with Breaking Bad as your example, you went looking for entertainment and you found that show with podcasts people. And you might have scrolled through it on accident and found it out about it because it's on Netflix. With podcasts, the only way you're going to find a podcast is if somebody refers you to it or if you're looking for something. People don't accidentally stumble across a podcast. They're on a quest to find. I want to learn about X and here's a podcast about X and I'm going to listen to that. And they'll even handpick the episodes. Whereas Breaking Bad, you watch from episode one every episode in order podcasts, you scroll through and you cherry pick the topic that you want to know about.

That's a great point. So I want to just underscore something you just said, which is you mentioned the know like and trust factor. I got into podcasting thinking it would be a lead generator. I've found it to be more of a lead conversion vehicle for me. So in other words, somebody's already kind of entered my world and now it's about forming trust with the audience, right until they're ready to maybe hire me as a coach. And same thing if you're a writer or copywriter. If you can come in early and then develop that relationship, build that know like and trust factor until they are ready to hire you. When they do make that call, they're pretty much convinced that they want to work with you.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's also a way to. You're spending time, the 30 to 60 minutes, on a range of things. It's not reading just a couple of lines of this is why I'm awesome. This is what I do for you. This is a problem that I solve. Podcasts give you opportunity to use case studies and to really dive deeper into things you believe in and what your expertise is in a different way. So I think they're beneficial for spending time with people. And it's really a sort of cross check and verify. Like you said, they'll go into your funnel, they'll look at your website, they'll look at your socials, they'll look at the things people don't just make a decision by one thing. And it takes time as well. So they may hear your podcast or they may hear you on somebody else's podcast, but they might listen to you on three different shows, watch a video, read a blog post before they just make that decision.

Absolutely they do. And I would expect them. In fact, I encourage my audience, listen, you need to get to know me first because I only want to work with people. To me, it's a relationship. And if you jump into it too early, he may not know me that well. So I actually prefer that people just kind of listen to me for a while.

Yeah, I was going to say that. It's like dating, really. It is. So much of this is. And then also, you need to reverse engineer. Everybody expects and people. This is what I've really noticed. Everyone expects. Hi, I'm Kelly. Do you want to marry me? Let's go to the church right now. That's what people are expecting. However, when they deal with other people, they don't want that at all. No one would ever do that. So unless it's Brad Pitt, in which case, guess what, you've already got the no like and trust factor because you've had access to him for years and years and years. So that doesn't work either. But what you need is, hey, I'm Kelly. Yep. Oh, you seem nice. Let's go on a first date. Let's go on a second date. Let's. You need all the dating before you get to the S. And people expect that when they're looking at a product to buy themselves, product, service, whatever. But when it comes to them, they expect someone to say, yes, I want to marry you after just hearing their name and shaking their hand. So I think it's changing that and reverse engineering how you act when you're making a purchase and then knowing that your clientele will also do the same. Vetting and getting to know you process.

One of the objections that I hear from writers is if they're even considering this is, you know, I thought about it, but do marketing directors really listen to podcasts? So, in other words, does my audience really listen to podcasts? These are busy executives. I mean, I just don't see it. I've never heard of them listening to podcasts or If I do, they're listening to, you know, to npr, the true crime series. What would you say to that kind of objection?

I would say everybody knows about podcasts. Most people to listen to podcasts. And also sometimes it's about the extra benefits and not them actually listening to the episode. It's seeing that you have been on those shows. So if they're Googling you, which we all know everybody does, they'll go to your LinkedIn, they'll do the Google, they'll do the rounds. And if they've even just seen that you've been a guest on podcast, that automatically, as we were saying before, shows your authority, credibility. It helps with your reputation. It shows that you're known. It shows that you have influence and that you're communicating your expertise. So even that, just like we all do it. I'll check. They've got this. Check. They've got that check. They look legit. Check. So it's other check marks. And if you've been on multiple shows. Oh, wow. Wow. I can see that. You know, Ed's been on 12 podcasts. Amazing. Let me just listen to 30 seconds. Oh, yeah, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Move on. And also, if you are on a show, it shows up in SEO because you've got those show notes. So even sometimes if they're not searching for you, they'll be searching somewhere else and they see you've been on a show, they might find you in a different way. So I think of thinking it as bigger, as is X person going to listen to X episode of me that's going to have X results. Think of it as a bigger play, Kelly.

I never thought of it that way. Which really leads to my next question. What's the best way to get started? I know that for a lot of writers, the thought of launching a show, I mean, it just seems like such a monumental task. I mean, I've been trying to launch my newsletter or a simple blog, and it's been several years and I haven't been able to do that. The thought of a podcast, which has seems like many moving parts and things that I don't know about, I don't know what I don't know kind of thing, seems like something that will never, never happen. So is the best first step to be a guest in some select shows?

Yes. And the reason for that is, can you do your own podcast? Yes. But again, it goes back to who are you talking to and what do you want them to do as a result? Podcasting is work. And it requires longevity, especially if you plan on doing one per week. There are a lot of moving parts. So are you doing it yourself or are you outsourcing? And if you're outsourcing, do you have your budget? So it's just thinking about those things. But I also think people think of podcasts as 52 episodes a year. It doesn't have to be. You could do a short series of whatever amount of podcasts you want on a specific topic and make it a vertical. And it could be three episodes, six episodes, eight, 12, whatever it is. And you could turn them into seasons. And that instantly means you are in control of the frequency. And I've seen you do mini episodes, Ed, so why can't people do little mini episodes? And it can just be them, you know what I mean? And you can batch record, so it is doable. It's just, what's the purpose? What's the result? And sometimes again, it's just that cross check and verify. Does that person know what they're talking about? And it's getting them ready. So again, like you said, they're like, oh, yep, I've listened to that. I'm ready. Here's my credit card. Ready to work with you. So sometimes it can be that way. But don't discount the, oh, there's Ed. He's been on this podcast. He's been on that podcast. He's been, oh, he must be really important because he's on all these different shows and different mediums. And you can put a podcast episode at the email signature. How many emails do we all send? Thousands. If you just put a little here's my latest podcast episode, or here's a podcast about XYZ at the bottom. And it's a short one that's going to change your business as well.

That's brilliant. Never thought about that.

People think of podcasts as here's a podcast. I'm going to put out episodes weekly. It needs to be an interview podcast. And in order for it to work, I need to have lots of downloads and make money from the show. I think that's what people think podcasts are. But if you think about them as an audio medium and different ways you can use them, it will change everything. And it can also be a resource on your website or frequently asked questions. And when people come to you with a question, you can say, oh, you know what, I actually did a 12 minute podcast episode on that. Listen to this. If you've got any other questions, let's chat about it. But I think this will help you let me know.

Love that. So many uses for this. I love it. And you're building credibility, you're building trust.

And you're going to repel people if they don't like you. If they listen to it, they're like, oh, no, thanks. Great. Because you're not for them, they're not for you. They're moving along, there's no time wasted, and they know exactly who you are, what you do, what you stand for. Podcasting, I know you're talking about it as content marketing, but it is also a personal brand play, and it's.

Tell me about that.

So personal branding, especially when you're in a market where people are, you know, it's commoditized, shall we say? So your personal brand is you as a person. It's your purpose, it's your message, it's your positioning, it's the platform and it's the delivery. So any. It's. And I think of it like a Rubik's Cube, everything needs to be. All the little squares need to be yellow. Sorry, green, Duh. Yellow, not good. Green. And if one of those little squares are red or yellow, it's not going to be complete. So you as a person is how you look, how you act, what you say, how you say it, what you stand for, even who you associate with. Right. And it's either going to be authentic or it's going to be fake. So you can be authentic and have all those things. And then if you know your purpose, which is your why. Simon Sinek, Very famous. You're either going to resonate or it's going to be disconnected. So it needs. Or ambivalent. And ambivalent. No one's going to win on that either. You know what I mean? So what message? What you say, how you say it, Is it clear? Is it confusing? Because you can be authentic, you can resonate, but if it's confusing, no one's going to. They're going to be like, I don't really know, positioning, differentiated or generic. So how are you different? Who are you talking to? What collateral have you got? Again, you can be authentic, resonate and clear. But if you're generic, no one cares. And then same with platform. Visible or invisible? Well, you can have all those things in place, but if you're not pushing it out there, no one's going to see you. So no one's going to know who you are. And you can have all those things, but if you're random and not consistent and you post one Time a year. It doesn't matter if you've got all those little squares green in place of your personal brand. It's inconsistent. So they're not going to be able to see you. So I think personal brand podcasts amplify your personal brand, but it can only make louder what is already there.

That's a great point. Yeah. So you have to really focus on what you already have to make sure that if you're going to amplify it, that you're amplifying the right thing in terms of. Let's say that. Okay, you got me. I get it. I understand. Definitely want to start by guesting in some shows. How do you determine what your prospects listen to? Because I think that might be my first step. I don't want to just pick a bunch of random shows. Even though you said, look, the fact that you been in several podcasts, that in and of itself builds credibility. It makes you look better. But I want to be a little strategic about it. So what might be a good first few steps to head in the right direction?

So, yeah, it really is. What are they listening to? But also what do they want to learn? Because you may not know. I'm not talking specific shows that your target audience listens to. It's what do they want to learn? What problem do they have that they're looking to solve? And then find a podcast that would be a fit for that. And also you can look at who else in your area, what podcasts have they been on or what media are they on? So where are your competitors? And I'm not saying go after the same show with the same thing. You need to look for the white space. But that is an example as well. And you can just do a basic top X podcast, X person is listening. Like, just do a bunch of searches to find things and find what people are referring other people to and then. Or just asking groups, hey, what podcast are you guys listening to? Because everyone loves telling people what podcast they're listening to as a referral. Because if you get a lot out of it, which we all do. Oh, I heard this great show. I heard this great episode. People want you to find the benefit of this little gem that they've dug up out of the dirt, which is searching for podcasts, because there's more than 750,000 of them.

Yeah. So do searches by topic because you might be able to find some ideas there. And then also ask around your colleagues and I would say even your clients. Right. Ask your good clients. Hey, when it comes to podcasts whether you listen to podcasts, interview, what do you listen to?

Yeah, and also sometimes your prospects can come from relationship building. So sometimes it's not the listener of the show that's the target, sometimes it's the host. So if you're pitching yourselves to shows, maybe it's the host that you want to get in front of and not the actual audience. And if you convert that host, that can also be valuable. Again, it's not the mass market and tons of people listening to you. It's getting access to the right people. Or you could get on a show and that person could have people in their network that have nothing to do with the podcast in the audience, and they might be your target. So that's also an interesting play. Think bigger. Think bigger. Bigger, Bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. It's not just who's listening to an episode that you happen to be on.

Yeah, I can't agree with you enough there. It's this podcasting, and you mentioned this several times already. It's a niche play. And with a podcast, it's not about trying to go to the big, broad shows. You really want to focus on the niche. You want to get specific because that's really where you're going to get traction. So it's not about volume. It's really about specificity.

There broad is broad because it goes out to everyone. And I always think of, like, Jimmy Fallon in the Tonight Show. I'll watch that. My grandmother will watch that. My niece will watch that. That's no good for anyone. But they're not all going to listen to a podcast for authors on cookbooks. You know what I mean? So that's where you want to go. Your exact target audience is.

So what would be maybe some simple steps for landing a spot as a guest on a podcast? What's a good best practice or set of best practices there?

Yeah, well, that's kind of people I want to be on a podcast, but that's really about step five or step six. You need to go all the way back to the beginning. And again, a lot of it's just asking yourself questions to figure out where you're going from the beginning. Getting a little map. So who are you talking to? What do you want them to do as a result of listening to you on the show? What are their problems? What are you solving? Why are you the person to do that? And then you need to get your messaging right. So from that, you need to extract your expertise and turn it into topics and talking points, because, hey, I am a content writer. Hey, I'm a copywriter. That is not going to get you booked on podcasts. You need to turn that into. And as writers, you know all this stuff already, but you pretty much need to turn your expertise into clickbait that actually delivers so they'll at least open the subject line to consider your pitch. So it's having all that stuff in place in the beginning before you even pick a show and pitch a show, because you've got to have that messaging correct and get your pitch ready. And also it's having a one sheet, because this is earned media. It's a media play. So you need to have your one sheets with your topics, your talking points, your headshot. It needs to be branded to your brand. And then an online press kit, which would have samples of past interviews, short biographies, just everything in one place for a producer so they don't have to do the work. Doing all this searching around, it's all in one spot. So it's having all your ducks in a row before. And then when you hit send, you know, if they come back with a yes, you can get on that interview within 10 minutes and do it with all the tech. So having a mic set up and everything, which doesn't need to be expensive, it can honestly be less than 100 bucks. So once you've got everything planned out, it's quite easy just to keep the machine going and sending out pitches consistently. So the setup is more than the actual pitching, I would say.

And if you don't have any interviews yet, so you're really starting at zero, do you find that that's a huge obstacle, or is it the kind of philosophy, well, somebody will eventually say yes, and then, you know, then I have somebody.

No, I don't think it's an obstacle. But you can't go in expecting to be on, you know, Tim Ferriss or Gary Vaynerchuk show if you haven't been on a podcast already. So I would say start with smaller shows and work your way up from there. Everyone wants to go in at the top of the pyramid, but the top of the pyramid doesn't exist with all the other bricks underneath them. So know that you're laying foundation in the beginning. And what we say at the talent squad for our clients is practice in private before you go public. So if you are an introvert, if you're not used to being in the media, whatever it is, we've all got all these little things on our computer and apps where you can just press record. So just get used to saying your Messaging, saying your talking points, staying on point, get someone from your team, get a va, get a family member, whomever to interview. You even just write questions and ask them to yourself and practice answering them. So when the time comes, you're ready and when you go on those smaller podcasts, you can start going up the steps to get your way to bigger podcasts. But the smaller ones are as valuable as the big ones. So it's just setting that expectation.

It sounds like you're a proponent of. Also, I think you've mentioned this, but I want to make sure I understand maybe having some ideas, some very specific topic ideas that are attractive. You mentioned clickbait, but you know, in the positive sense, is that, you know, kind of a good approach?

Yes. That actually delivers. And so any change that to would you see your talking points on the front page of a newspaper and would you want to buy it or open it to see what's inside? So the digital one of that is, you know, when you're scrolling through Instagram, Facebook, anything, what is the thing that makes you stop and actually scroll back up to click on it to find out the thing? Now the clickbait that delivers element is how many times have we clicked and been let down because it sucks and there's nothing in there and there's not even one little grain of rice of point and we feel ripped off. You want the other one where it feels like you've gotten a reward and payoff. So in pitching, it's you even just need to get the email opened. It's quite competitive these days, more so than it was a few years ago. So people are getting pitched. And you would know this from your show because I'm sure you get pitched quite a lot.

Oh my God, they're horrible. 95% of them.

So, yeah, and we should talk about that because I would be really interested to hear who pitches you, how you get pitched, what you like, what you don't like. But the first point is if the subject line isn't good enough, your email won't even get opened. If the first couple of lines don't take the host or it's not well written, or you just go in talking about yourself and how you're great and how you want to get booked on a show, you're not going to progress. So you really need to have this together. Because I want to be on podcast. I've found a show I'm going to send. An email is actually not enough. This is a strategy. But Ed, tell us about how many times are you getting booked a week, a month, Then what are you seeing?

Well, we get my guess and crystal filters, all of them, so I'm not really sure. But my guess is, now, keep in mind, I have a very niche audience, right? So this is a small show compared to so many out there. But I have longevity. I've been doing it for seven years, so I think I get quite a bit of visibility. And I get maybe, I don't know, three, four pitches a week in this. The 95% of them are something like this. If they even bother to have an intro paragraph that shows that they've done their homework most of the time when they do have was basically wedged in there. Hey, I listened to the show on X with this guest. Loved what you guys talked about. And then everything else is boilerplate. And what really frustrates me is that it would have taken another five minutes to tie what they listened to and what they were commenting on to what they're pitching me. But it's usually 180 degrees off. So it's like they really like this podcast episode that I did on, I don't know, prospecting with email. And then they're pitching something about how to grow your business as an entrepreneur, but they're not even talking about writers. It's such a generic message, such a generic topic. Or it's something that if you even took a minute to think about it, you would realize that my audience, that's completely irrelevant to them. So they wedge in some personality to just hook me. Oh, they actually did their homework. They're paying attention. This is going to be a custom pitch. And then they throw in something generic that they're sending everybody else.

Yeah, the old, hey, loved X episode. Here's everything about me is never going to work, and you're actually going to waste your time and damage your brand. So. And what do you like? What are the show the people that you've liked and do you like the one sheet? Do you like the press kit?

I do like the one sheet because it makes it easier to make a quick determination. Okay. What is it about this person's background and what they talk about in their expertise that would be relevant to my audience as opposed to making me do the homework of now having to do a lot of research on you right now? You've made it easy for me. You've given it to me on a silver platter. The topics that I like are the ones I like. That approach where you say, I listened to this and I loved it, and here's why? But then there's a very smooth transition into what they're pitching, and it's usually related to what they just mentioned they enjoyed. So they're making a case for if you did this. Here's why. I think you should consider this topic that I can speak to.

Yeah. I also encourage counter content and looking for the white space as well. So if someone said, hey, I love this. The opportunity as well is depending. Because a lot of times if something's already been covered, so it needs to either be complimentary or it could be, hey, have you thought about this? Which is a different approach. So counter pitching is also a great technique. And because if everyone's saying the same thing, you can stand in a different way. And then. Or I saw this, but you haven't spoken about that. Here's an opportunity for this. Or I'd like to add on to that. What about this is the next step? Because looking at the back catalog is key. Because if someone has pitched something and then you pitch the same thing, well, the host is not going to want that on because that's not programming good content. You have to pitch something else.

So you know what my favorite one is? And I say favorite. I'm being facetious. The one I hate. One of the topics they pitch that everyone seems to pitch is how to communicate authentically past how to scale and how to communicate authentically or how to be your authentic self. Just the word authentic. Such a throwaway word now. It used to be so powerful. I love that you said look at the catalog because you're trying to connect the dots.

Yeah. You're not only competing against those people that are pitching from now onwards, you're actually competing against all those 200 episodes that have already been on air. Maybe not episode one, fine. But anything that's been in the last six to 12 months, you're competing with. And you just can't come in with the same content. Because I've already got that back catalog. And as a listener searching through, I've already got that information. So unless it's updated, which usually, you know, podcasts are pretty evergreen, if that's been covered. And as a host or a producer, don't come out with me with something I've already done, because I've already done it. I've done that episode. I need something else. So have you got a counterpoint to that? Have you got a complimentary point to that? Have you got an extension of that? Because it does show that you've paid attention, that the host is talking about that. And that's important to their audience. But what else have you got? Show me the money.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I know some people listening might be thinking, that's a lot of work. Well, you know what? It is a lot of work. Exactly. But you're not looking for volume. You're looking to get in just a handful of shows in a year. The strategy you've been talking about, Kelly, that are going to matter, right? Not I need to get in 100 shows. I mean, not that I don't think anyone in my audience would want that. But it's not about volume. It's about, you know, they have to matter and they have to be.

Think of it as a showcase for your audience. If you've got a showcase of six to 12 shows and you've been on them, then, like, you're not a professional podcasting guest. We get that. But that is still a good amount. It doesn't have to be millions of shows. But also one show probably isn't going to cut it. So think of it as a little small showcase or collection portfolio of shows. And you can do that, and you can do it over a year. You can set yourself. I'm going to do X pitches this week, this day, whatever. You can always batch them once a quarter. I'm going to send out X pictures and then see what comes of that. Do what you're able to do.

I don't want to spend too much time on this question, but I guess kind of a decision making question here. When should a writer decide if it makes sense to then start their own show? So we talked about this as kind of a first step guesting, but when do you feel that maybe that should be a consideration?

I think it goes back to asking the question, who are you talking to and what do you want them to do? A result. If you're doing podcast guesting, you're leveraging other people's curated audiences that are already engaged and been built. So you're going around to other people's dinner parties, being the guest. If you're showing, doing your own show, you are hosting that dinner party and you're inviting other people to your show. So you got to do all the work, you got to make the food, you've got to invite everybody, you've got to clean up after the event and all those things. And with podcasting, if you have your own, you're speaking to your own people and building the audience so you're speaking to the same people. So it's just which play do you want to Be in. Do you want to be a guest going in a lots of other shows, or do you want to be. And build your own audience? So it's thinking about it that way now with your own audience. We've spoken before. Your own audience can also be potential clients and using it for a resource for your own business. And those podcasts can even be turned into other mediums that you can repurpose, so you can use them in multiple ways as well. So I guess it's who are you speaking to and how do you want to use that content?

Or the other way around. Right. You could turn content you've created over time and turn those into episodes. So they're evergreen, for instance.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So is it going to be verticals? Is it going to be seasons? Is it going to be interviews? What does the podcast look like? What is the purpose of the podcast? But you could also do multiple seasons for different audiences and put that on your show. It can be a resource.

Interesting. So, as we wrap up, I'm curious about your take on where things are heading with podcasting. It seems like every year there are more and more podcasts out there. Is this a bubble? Do you think we've reached the peak? Do you think this is going to go away at some point because people are going to get tired of the medium? What's your prediction?

I think audio will always be around in different incarnations. I think we're not at peak yet. You said that you've had your show for seven years. I've been in podcasting since 2007. It's getting bigger and bigger, and the speed at which it's getting produced has accelerated definitely in the last three years. But I think the next way that it's going to go is smart speakers. I think that's going to. We're not using them all. I can't even say the word because I've got one and if I say it, she'll start talking back to me. I made that mistake in a podcast once starts with a rhymes with exa. And so I think that will be it when people are asking on that device more and more and more and in cars more and more and more. So I think the accessibility. But also the other thing that we're seeing is Hollywood's coming in, and they have been for a few years, and what they're doing is they're in the consolidation. Like if you look at Spotify, they're just buying up, buying up, buying up, buying up all these different companies. So. And Hollywood's coming in, just like they did with the blogs and, you know, YouTubers buying content because it is great content. So they're finding content and they're finding talent, and they're turning them into shows.

So that's.

Where will it be? I don't have it. I don't have a crystal ball. I have no idea. Like, when I started university, I didn't know podcasts were going to be invented. I didn't know what Facebook was. So who knows where it will go?

So much could change. What I love about what's happening in Hollywood and, you know, with these big media companies just getting into the game in a huge way, is that not only are they continuing to legitimize the medium, and I think we're kind of past that anyway, but they're also getting more and more people listening to podcasts who didn't listen before, or getting them to listen more, which I think it's a tide that lifts all the boats, isn't it?

Yeah. And I think you're right. The industry has been legitimized. When I got into it, it wasn't. And people were, especially having been on air radio announcer in a commercial market, everyone was like, oh, laughing at me. Now that has changed. But also, I think it's been professionalized and also deprofessionalized because the barrier to entry is so low. So everyone's coming in, planting their flag, going, yeah, I'm a podcast booker or I'm an editor. I'm. They're saying they're a producer, but really they're just editing, and that's not even what a producer is. So they don't even know what their profession is or what they're doing. So I think it's all these things, and I think it's going to correct itself. In what way? I'm not sure, but it will.

Kelly, where can listeners learn more about you and the talent squad?

Yeah, you can find me@the talentsquad.com. that's easy. The talentsquad.com I've got lots of really simple blog posts on there covering different topics that you can consume quite quickly if you want some more information on being a podcast guest or being a podcaster. Because again, we're talking about the medium as it's. Don't just think of it as interviews, Q and A. It's bigger than that.

Couldn't agree more. This has been wonderful, Kelly. Thanks for coming on. I just love what you had to share here and really got me thinking about some key things that I hadn't really considered before.

Oh, we haven't even gotten into internal podcasts. That's an episode for another episode.

That's part two. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on, Kelly. It's been wonderful.

Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much, Ed.

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