#247: How to Rock Your Next Zoom Call!

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. You can find detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com episode 247 and those notes always include a summary of our discussion as well as links to resources mentioned during the show. You may have avoided it before the pandemic, but there's no doubt that video conferencing is here to stay. Phones aren't going away, but more and more clients and prospects prefer to use platforms like Zoom to hold video calls and I firmly believe this trend will continue. Unfortunately, Studies show that 59% of adults are more self conscious on camera than they are in real life. Many of us just get anxious and nervous and we make mistakes that cause clients to lose confidence in us. Today I'm joined by Karen Leland, who's a personal branding and media trainer. Karen has paid very close attention to to how people are using these video conference tools and platforms and she has lots of simple and practical tips and ideas we can all implement to reduce stress and anxiety and have more effective video calls. We get into a number of things in our conversation including what to wear and what not to wear, how to frame your video for better focus and connection with the other callers. Background cheers and jeers. Karen is going to rate some background examples and explain why some are better than others and what you should probably avoid. How to avoid what she calls or apparently it's a thing. It's called Zoom fatigue and how to manage that, how to manage your energy and how to fake it till you make it and then a few examples of video calls gone wrong. All of them which are just truly hilarious. I think you're going to enjoy that this is a very practical discussion. I know you're going to benefit from many of the ideas that Karen shares. Karen, welcome to the show. Great to have you on board.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Well, so am I and this is such a great time to talk about this topic because of everything that's been going on in the world. And of course this is something that a lot of us had to deal with before the world went nuts, but even more so now. So I know this is going to be very practical information for our Listeners, before we get to that, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Specifically, I'd love to know what you do, what your business is about today and the kind of clients you work with, and then a little bit about how you got to where you are today. A little bit of the background. I always find that very interesting.

Great, sir. I'd love to share that with you. So. Well, I'm a branding and marketing strategist. I work really mostly like a private brand concierge manager. So if you are a CEO and you need to build your personal brand or your CEO brand, or you're an executive and you need to build your executive brand, or you're an entrepreneur and you're looking to build your entrepreneurial personal brand, or you're an author or even if you. I work a lot with businesses. If you have a business and you really need to get your brand and your marketing moved across the line. I come in almost like a ninja. I come in and I help assess where you are, create a strategy that's based in research, but then I shepherd the implementation of the strategy. And that's, I think, one of the things that's really different because a lot of people do strategy and a lot of people do implementation, but there's very few people that actually do both well. So that's really kind of my sweet spot as a branding and a marketing strategist. I basically work with CEOs, I work with CEOs and founders and owners and entrepreneurs, and then I work with businesses on their business brands, and then I work with executives on their executive brands.

Interesting. I'm curious about. This always strikes me as an area of marketing that a lot of people, and this is my perception, so I'd love to get your take on it, that a lot of people don't wake up and said, I think I need to buy a little bit of branding help today. You know, so how does that come about? Right. You know, because it's not the kind of thing that's an off the shelf.

I actually disagree a little bit. I think that was true 10 years ago and maybe even five years ago, but I think for the last couple of years, people have realized that branding is a really essential part. You know, it's one thing if you're going to go out there and start building buzz for your business and doing Facebook ads and advertising and doing PR and doing all of this, but if all you're doing is driving people back to a social media platform or to a website or to messaging that doesn't convert well, what was the point of spending all that time and money outreaching? So I think people have realized that having a solid brand first, not only in the look, because the look is. That's the logo, right? The look and the feel. The look, but the language that you use, the positioning of the brand. And it's very interesting because I think that was already true pre Covid, but with COVID it has accelerated that process 10,000%. The importance of that, and I'll tell you why. Because more eyeballs than ever right now are looking at people online. And that's the major way people are interacting with a business these days. So if you're a CEO of a company, and I mean, I can't tell you how many CEOs have called me in a panic and said, oh my God, my LinkedIn is horrible. And now with COVID everybody's checking me out on my LinkedIn. I've got to do something with my LinkedIn. I need to do something with my CEO brand. So I think Covid's really accelerated what was already a trend.

That's very interesting. And I just wanted to throw it out there to see how you'd react. I actually agree. I'm really big on positioning, so I'm glad that you made the distinction there. And that totally resonates with me in terms of the online aspect of it and how that important that's become over the past year or so. So let's kind of shift gears a little bit because I'd like to talk, get it maybe a little bit more granular here about video calls. So obviously, you know, with the advent of Zoom, I think Zoom has kind of made this thing a lot easier, practical, usable. Now, before that, there was Skype. A lot of us would use Skype, but it seemed to be so unreliable, cumbersome. Oh, it was. What is this? I mean, at first it was kind of neat because it was the only one that had some of that stuff, and it was free and it was accessible and everyone had an account. But that started becoming more commonplace. I'm an old phone guy, so that was even a big change for me. But now with Zoom, it's such an easy, accessible platform. Everyone seems to have it now with COVID I mean, Zoom has just blown up, and I'm seeing more and more clients and prospects who want to meet us over Zoom. And it seems it's interesting because I used it for a long time without the video, but now the assumption is, yeah, it's going to be a Video conference call. A video call. So I'd like to talk a little bit about. Well, not a lot. Not a little. A lot actually about how to do this well and what you need to know to be effective in these calls. Because it's like I don't think we're. And maybe you disagree, but I think this is the trend. This is not going away.

Oh, there's. Even when we go back, even when this is all knock on wood all over and we're back full time to being able to go see whoever we want whenever we want or have thousand person conferences, I am certain we will go from what I call an and model. Right. It was virtual and live. With virtual being the stepchild of live to virtual, excuse me, as virtual or live. You know, with virtual being the stepchild to we're going to an end world, it will be virtual and live. So this is moving forward, at least for the rest of our lifetime. We will have a huge amount of interaction like this.

I agree. Totally agree. This has accelerated something that was already moving pretty rapidly. I guess I'd like to start with a question to kind of kick this off with. I'd love to know what the biggest blunder you've ever seen in a video call because I know you've seen it all.

Well, I'm going to give you two. One is, and this isn't a call I was on, but this got sent to me because of what I do for a living as you know, a branding strategist, somebody said, and somebody who's an expert in this. Somebody sent this to me. A woman was on a call with her younger woman was on a call with her colleagues and on a zoom call and apparently she took the phone, I think it was the phone. She took the phone or the computer with her. She went to the bathroom and they could see her. She sat on the toilet and peed while she was on the call. But she did not realize, she didn't realize she was on the call and could be. She could still be seen. And the look on her colleagues faces is so funny. It's really funny because they're like, oh my God, does she know what she's, what's going on? It's really pretty funny. So that was one. But my other favorite one was about, I don't know, I'm going to say maybe two months ago, Chuck Schumer, Senator Chuck Schumer was being interviewed on msnbc and he was obviously it was during the quarantine. He was in his home office, no problem. And There was a door behind him, to his, over his left. And in the middle of the. I forget what he was talking about, but in the middle of his conversation with MSNBC on national tv, the door opens, a black woman comes out who was wearing. She looked. She was carrying cleaning supplies. So I can only. She was carrying cleaning supplies, wearing an apron. So my assumption is that she was cleaning the house. Now, maybe she was, maybe she wasn't, but that's what it looked like. And then she stopped and looked at the video and he turned around and looked at her, and then she wandered out of the frame. And it's not that it's bad to have someone cleaning your house. It's that the fact that he's on national television and he doesn't think to. Now, maybe that was his cousin or his. I don't. You know what I'm saying? I don't know who it was. But whoever's in the house, you would, whether it's the cleaning person or whether it's your cousin or your family member or a friend, whatever, you would think that you would tell them to go ahead and know that you were on camera and not walk in and be cleaning the bathroom and looking at the camera. And it was like, it just goes to show you. And I forget what he was talking about, but he was talking about something that was particularly ironic that that happened at that moment. Oh, my gosh. Oh, I know what it was. He was talking about how people who are in the service field, such as cleaning, you know, he named a couple of them and cleaning was one of them, I believe, are more at risk. But he was not wearing a mask and she was not wearing a mask, and she was clearly in the house near him. That was what it was. Right. So it wasn't just that she came on camera. It said he was talking about this and she wasn't wearing a mask, and neither was he. So it was like the whole thing was just a perfect example of do what I say, not what I do. And I, by the way, I have nothing against Chuck Schumer. I think he a great guy and does his job very well. But it just goes to show you that anybody, no matter how smart they are, no matter how well intentioned they are, no matter how much they do this kind of stuff, if they don't think about it, they can really screw it up.

That is hilarious. It reminds me of the clip in the White House briefing where, and this is kind of early on in them, everyone should wear MAST days, you know, when it was really picking up. And it went, remember? Because it was like, oh, no, masks. Don't do anything to. Everyone needs to wear a mask. And it was starting to get really hardcore. And the press briefing was done, and everyone in the audience, all the reporters are social distancing and they're all wearing masks. And as soon as they said, all right, you know, we're done or cut, it was still rolling, video was still rolling. And they all took their masks off.

I remember that, remember that? And this is the point. It's like the optics just look bad, right? And the thing about video is optics get. Are huge when video's involved, you know, that's why the optics of what Chuck Schumer did looked bad. The optics of that moment you're talking about look bad. The optics of the woman going to the bathroom and literally she pulls down her pants and sits on the toilet and pees. It's really kind of funny, you know, the optics of that just look bad. So you have to think when you're on video calls, what are the optics of this? How is it looking? How is it coming across? And I'm really surprised how many people don't even today, by the way, because I watch the news a lot because I'm often asked to comment on brands and people's brands and business brands and, you know, what's going on. I'm just shocked how many experts they get on these national shows who show up and their backgrounds are a mess. They look unkempt. The computer is going up their nose because it's not properly positioned. I'm watching it with utter fascination. I must say.

I've seen some disaster backgrounds out there. Now that everyone's being interviewed at home, it's hilarious. You know, who broke ground on this, right? Remember last year? Was it last year or the year before? That poor college professor who was being interviewed on national tv and his little kid walks in.

Yes, that poor man. Right.

Like doing some kind of dance. And then his wife had to run in there and she was like, crawling on the floor, thinking she would. That guy. Unfortunately, you know, they say, you know, whoever kicks the door down gets shot. You know, he kicked the door down.

He took it.

He took the shot.

He took the shot. But, you know, the thing is, is that it's a new. If you think about it, it's a new skill. And it's one people aren't really up to speed on yet. And that's where we are. We're at people getting up to speed. By the way, I don't Even think we're in the place where everybody understands the difference that these things make towards amplifying your message and your power versus taking away from your message and your power. I don't even think we're there yet.

Yeah, I would agree with you. I know I have a lot to learn in this department, so I'd like to get into the weeds a bit with you. Please get into some practical ideas and suggestions. The first thing I should mention is that I know and I'm sure my audience is no different from most people out there. Most of my listeners feel very self conscious on camera and they're not comfortable with the format. They would rather, first of all, many of them would rather not even be having a live conversation. They would rather do this over email. But they understand and I teach them. Look, there's only so much you can do. There's, you have to get into a conversation. So that's already nerve wracking for a lot of people. But then the next step is, oh, by the way, you know, if it's a zoom call, you might end up doing video. So would love to hear some tips from you for feeling more confident during a video call because as we've discussed, this is just inevitable. So it's not like, you know, you need to avoid them. No, you just need to be prepared so you can do the best job possible.

Well, and I think that's correct. I think you do have to be prepared and it's not that hard to be prepared, but it does take some thought and some effort.

So let's talk a little bit about then what we could do. I mean, we mentioned background, we mentioned, you know, clothing, letting people know, hey, I'm going to be on this call. Don't just barge into my office. Background noise, you know, wherever you want to start, I'll let you lead.

Well, I mean, I think there's a couple of things you have to think about. And really here's the first one. You sort of said it. They've done some research and 59% of adults are more self conscious on camera than even in real life. Right. So it's not an unusual thing. So I think one of the first things that I always tell people is light. And anyone that's ever done any acting or ever been on camera knows this light is your friend or your enemy, depending on how you use it. And so really I always tell people one of the easiest things you can do to immediately improve how you look on camera and how you feel on camera, but how other people see you on camera. Right. How you actually come across to other people on video is the way you use light. And the trick is to really have a soft, diffused light either in front of you or on the side of you. So that means if you've got a window, don't have the window behind you, have it in front of you. But the trick that everybody I know uses who does this professionally is they go onto Amazon and they buy something called a ring light. R I N G A ring light cost between 30 and 100 bucks. You can get very inexpensively. And it's a little light that's portable that you pull up. It's a ring. It's what photographers use to fill in the white space when they do photographs. And if you put it right in front of the camera or right in front of you when you're on video, it really creates a nice soft light. And usually for ring lights, there's options. There's a cooler light, a warmer light, a bluer light, and you can adjust it up or down. That makes an enormous difference. So having like a lamp next to you or in front of your computer facing an open window, if you can, and then putting a ring light right in front of your face and in front of the camera makes an enormous difference. I mean, just that I have seen transform how people are coming across on video.

I need to get that. Because the way my office is laid out, either two windows are actually to my right. And for a couple of reasons. I mean, it's partly layout and partly. I can't stand having all that light coming, coming in, hitting me in the face when I have a computer monitor in front of me. Right. Because it makes it harder, I think, to see the screen, at least for.

Me, way much harder.

Right. I'm picky like that. But it's also the layout. I've never liked having my back against the door. And if I did it, I would have my back against the door. And I just. I don't know. That just always freaks me out. I want to be able to face the door. So I have no choice but to get a ring light.

You do need to get a ring light, and they're inexpensive and easy, so it's not a big deal.

And if it doesn't fit on your desk, I'm assuming, you know, you can buy one that's got a stand so you can have it, like, in front of you.

Oh, they all come. They all come on a stand. And you just put it. I like. I prop mine on couch, which is in Front of my desk, just so that it's basically in front of you. Yeah, it's really easy to work with.

Perfect. So ring light, great start. And one of the easiest things you could do that will make a big difference. I like that. What else would you suggest?

Okay. The other thing I would suggest is you need to make sure that the camera's properly positioned. So we have all seen people on TV or on a video call where it looks like the camera's going up their nose or you're seeing them from underneath their chin. Okay. One that is not flattering to anyone. You could be a supermodel. That will not be a flattering look on you. Right. So that's not flattering. But also, it's weird for other people because what they're looking at is like. It's like they're looking up at you. So it's got a whole weird psychological thing that's unconscious that people don't realize, but that goes on. So you always want to make sure that the camera is positioned at the top of your head and tilted down or right at your eye level. And that often means putting your computer on books on a stack of books to get it in the right place. Going again onto Amazon and buying one of those computer stands that sit on your desktop where you can just make the computer higher or lower. It's just like a tiny little stand that goes up and down, right? Doing that, putting it on, you know, something that's higher. So you have to get the height right, and then tilt the screen so that you're actually looking. The camera's looking slightly down on you or right at eye level. It's not looking up at you. That's a really important part, because your viewers otherwise are looking up at you. And again, there's a whole subconscious psychological message when people are looking up at you. Besides that, it's unflattering. So the whole positioning of the camera is really critical.

I've seen some bad ones, especially with laptops, because they sit so low.

Right. You have to prop them up.

They do, yeah. And they're looking straight up. Now, I don't know if you're gonna get into this, but it just brings up another question, which is the issue of when you're having a conversation with someone, depending on the size of your screen and where your camera is, we just naturally like to look at the face as we're talking to somebody. Right. But the camera will be in a different place. So it looks like to them, like, I'm look. I'm not paying attention, and I'm looking at something else.

Yeah, this is a big problem. And so. And you're right. There's no one. So generally we say if you look at the camera, even though it's weird when you're talking, you will seem like you're looking at them. But again, because computer laptops are different sizes and where things are placed, part of what I tell people to do is you have to do a test on all of this. So you want to go on to Zoom or whatever webinar you use and record yourself and test so that you can see where you need to look to look like you're looking directly at the person, because it's different so that you can see what your lighting looks like, so that you can see what your background looks like. So the way to do that is you have to figure out a test, like, I now know on my screen, the way it's set up. So when I have my whole setup ready to go for a webinar or for a conference call, you know, or a video call, I have it set up so I know exactly where to look in order to be looking at people. And it's set up the same every time. The same height, the same position, the same place, the same lighting. Right. So you have to test it out first to see for you. Where is it the other thing you can do. And I just did this the other day was I said to somebody, hey, we've never been on a screen before. I just want to make sure, given where my computer is and yours is, does it look like I'm looking at you right now? And the person said, no, it actually looks like you're looking off to the right. And I said, how about now? They stole. Yeah, now you're looking at me. There's nothing wrong with asking people. I just want to make sure. Does it look like I'm looking at you? Because that's important to me.

Yeah. With Zoom, it's pretty easy because you could just record yourself and looking at yourself, which would be the same spot as the other person, to see how that works. I know when it works better for me is when I go from the full video screen to sharing my screen or sharing an app, and then that automatically makes the other person really small. It's a thumbnail. What I'll do is I'll move them. I'll drag and drop that thumbnail of their picture right below the camera.

Right. That's perfect.

I think it's. It works a little better. So it's not Perfect. But it's as close as it's going to get. I hate looking at that little green.

Light, you know, Everybody hates it because it's weird. We're not used to it. You know, unless you've done a lot of TV or camera work, you're not used to it.

So let's talk a little bit about background. This is something that I struggled with for a long time, because, look, I'm a guy. I'm very simple. And I moved into this house that we're living in now seven years ago. And I mean, I hate to admit this, but people who work with me know it. Until last fall, I hadn't done anything to my office. So I had a plain beige wall behind me. It looked like I was in. I don't know, in a closet somewhere. And I didn't like it, but I was just too lazy to do something about it. And finally, I mean, of course, we did video here. When we started talking, I got books behind me. I got these nice shelves. And I just kind of splurged last fall and did an office makeover. But how much do you need to worry about your background? Do you need to worry about your background? I mean, obviously, we don't want kids and dogs running right behind us, but what are your thoughts on that?

Well, backgrounds matter. And you can see this again, anytime you watch tv, you can just see. Now, I saw somebody on, and they're. I forget who it was. There was someone who had formerly been, like, very high up in the US Government, and they had boxes in their background and all this stuff. And I thought, dude, you're talking about national events, but you have no credibility in the way you look.

They're prepping.

So, I mean, I. They're prepping. Exactly. So I think part of it is, you know, is understanding that it's not like you have to have this picture perfect background, but what you want to have is you want to have a background. That's a couple of things. One is it needs to be neat. There's just no option of that. Like, there was a doctor who was on the other day, and they were interviewing her about kids and Covid and kids. And she literally had no makeup on. Her hair was a mess, the camera was positioned wrong, and the room behind her was filled with boxes. Again, just boxes. Now, maybe she was moving, but I know you could at least find a wall. So. And it's just. And again, I just think for national television, that's not the right standard. If you're an expert talking about Something that serious, because it takes away from your power and just like the way you dress and the way you look and the lighting and the positioning of the camera can add to your credibility and power or take away from it. The background can. So I think part of it is being neat and tidy is sort of number one, right?

Yeah.

Obviously number two is nothing offensive in the background. Obviously. Number three is if there's something weird in the background that people get distracted by. You know, you don't want distractions in the background. So I was watching one person on a video call that I was on and he had some kind of weird kids toy. The, you know, like to his left, really in view in the camera. And I kept getting distracted and going, what is that thing? Like that's some weird kind of clown kid toy or something. So. And then I was funny because I talked to a few other people who were on the call and we were talking about the call and they go, by the way, what was that thing? And I go, oh, no, it kept distracting me. I don't know, but it was weird. And they go, yeah, I kept getting distracted by it. So, you know, you don't want anything that distracts. It's fine if you're showing your house, your apartment, your whatever. But again, it should be neat, it should be tidy, it should be curated. A lot of people these days, you'll notice, are doing like bookshelves. They're doing bookshelves and they're facing out certain books so that they're establishing their brand by the books they're facing out. I think that gets a little, you know, that can get a little too, too.

There's a whole website about this. I don't know if you knew this room Writer.

Room Writer.

That's right. Yeah. Well, no, but they look at. Specifically the one I saw looks at the books.

At the books. I love it. It's hysterical.

It's like, what books do they have? And then they try to draw some conclusions about that concl.

Yeah, absolutely. So that's a very interesting way to do it. I don't like virtual backgrounds right now because unless you put them on a blue screen, you get jiggy. Right. So when you move, your arm disappears, or if you cock your head to the side, half your head, your hair goes away.

I think it's distracting.

It is really distracting. I can tell you that there is some new technology coming out that I think is going to really transform that, but it's not available yet. It's somebody I know who's doing some Work on that. But for now that's what we have. So I'm not a fan of those big virtual backgrounds because of that. So there's also, you know, I tell you, I did a webinar for Verizon the other day and they said we like all our webinars to be on plain background. And they sent me what is the equivalent of what's called a whiteboard, but it's like you tape it up on your wall, it's like post it notes, but you put it up on the wall. So I instantly had a plain background, which I thought was really interesting. So you could always get that, you can always order from office supply store, that sort of white, that sort of instant whiteboard that you put up on the wall so that you have that like that. But the big thing is simple, clean, not distracting. And on brand. Right, and on brand means it just doesn't have something in there that's completely off what you are.

This is one that I really have trouble with because I sometimes feel that I like this lady you talked about the other day, no makeup, wearing a T shirt, she's on national tv. That's the other extreme.

Right. And again, it's not like I think you have to be wearing makeup and have your hair done every time you're, you know, on a video call. But if you're going to be on national television talking as an expert on something, I think you ought to do your best to look professional. You know, it's just the bottom line. So, I mean, it's so funny, a CEO said to me the other day, I really like being an authentic person. And at home I don't wear a button down shirt. I wear a T shirt, sweatpants. So that's what I wear on my video calls. And I said, yeah, but the thing you're not accounting for is that you're not at home, you're at work at home. So there's a difference. It's like you. There's. No, it's not. It used to be just I'm at work and now I'm at home. No, now you're at work at home. And at work at home is different than at work at home or at work. So I think you're going to see this change. I hope we do. People, a lot of people are getting really sloppy, really sloppy in how they look on these calls, even if it's with clients or investors. And here's the thing, there's a whole field of study. I mean, we could do a webinar we could do a podcast just on this, right? There's a whole field of study called enclosed cognition, and it's really the effects of clothing on the cognitive process. It was done by a guy named Dr. Adam Galinsky. And what they found out was that clothes, the clothes you wear, actually invade your body and brain, and they put you, the wearer into a different psychological state. They don't just impact the person who's looking at you, they impact you, how you feel. So, you know, people just going, well, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just gonna throw my hair up in a bun and not shower. I'm just gonna throw on a T shirt or whatever. It does have an impact on us. And I'm not saying there isn't a time to be more casual, just like we would have casual Friday. There are certain video calls that are more casual and you can be more casual. But there's other times when you really want to have what you wear match the purpose of what you're doing, not how you feel or what you feel like wearing that day, but you know the purpose of what you're doing.

So what would you say? Because I get it, a CEO shouldn't be wearing a T shirt and sweatpants. But let's say I am a content marketing writer, so I would be. And if I worked for a company, I would be kind of smart casual if I were in the office. So are you trying to match what you might be wearing if you are either in the office as an employee or coming into a client's office to do a little bit of on site work? Is that a good rule of thumb.

What I tell people? Is that what you want to do? Rule of thumb is this. You want to dress how you address for that situation. And if it was in meet space, right, in real meet space, not video, not virtual, how would you dress? And then you can go one notch lower. Okay, you can go that level or one notch lower. But if you're going two notches lower or three notches or. So, let's say that I'm a content writer and I've got a meeting with a potential client, and I would have done that meeting in person and I would have showed up in. And it's a tech company, and I would have showed up in jeans and maybe a checker shirt, A casual, relaxed check shirt. Right? You know those check shirts guys wear Or a shirt, you know that. A little pattern in it, but nothing super fancy. Okay. If I showed up to my virtual meeting like that, fine. Now maybe I might show up to my virtual meeting in a golf shirt, but it's a really nice one. But it's got a collar to it, right? A collared golf shirt. But if I show up in a worn, faded gray T shirt, that's too many levels down.

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Same thing with the ladies I see. You know, the ladies, I mean, they look amazing with, you know, the scarf and this amazing blouse. Maybe even a jacket. I mean, you could do that, right? But is that practical to do every day or every week?

No, it's not practical to do every day. And it, again, depends on the purpose. You have to dress for purpose, not mood. So if I'm leading a webinar, I put on a jacket just like I would if I was leading a course, right? I put on a jacket if I'm leading a webinar. If I'm having a meeting with a client, that's a working meeting where we're working on their brand and I already know the client, then I'll just be in a blouse, right? Or I might even be in a dress or just a top, because they already know me. If I'm having a meeting with a client for someone I've never met for the first time, I may not wear a jacket, but I'll wear a more structured blouse. So it's like, I think about, you know, what is going to suit the purpose. Again, it's this enclosed cognition thing. It just. It affects not only how the other person sees you, but it affects you. And here's the scary. But here's the trouble with this. Most of it's at a subconscious level.

Of course it is.

It's not that people are sitting there going, wow, she's wearing a T shirt, not a jacket. It's more just how it hits them at a subconscious level. It's like all that information being taken in at once that it's what Malcolm Gladwell called Fin slicing in his book Blank, Right? It's like when we take in all this information and boom, we have this instant feeling, this instant judgment, this instant idea. And so that's really what it's a function of.

Makes perfect sense. Now that you say that, now I see why. When I've seen interviews of. You mentioned Chuck Schumer, when I've seen interviews of congresspeople right at home, it's weird. When they're wearing many of them I've seen, they're two notches down.

Exactly right?

They're usually. How do you see them? You see them in Congress Wearing a suit and a tie. The guys, if they show up and they're wearing a T shirt, that's way down.

But it's too many notches down.

It's too many notches down. I think for somebody like that, I would say a shirt and a tie. No coat or maybe even no tie. But a dress shirt.

But a dress shirt.

That would be like the minimum.

This isn't about. I can't think of the word. This isn't about fashion. It's not about dress codes. It's about that you literally amplify or de amplify your message based on all these factors. Yeah, I would amplify or de amplify your power based on all these messages.

And that's exactly why it kind of shocked me, because I think their power. They gave up their power. I think that's a terminology you used a little bit earlier. Right. And when they showed up in a golf shirt.

Yep. It got, I would say, diminished their power.

They diminished their power. Yes. In. That's a great way to think about it. So, as we wrap up, I got a couple last questions for you here. One of the things that I know and I've heard from my listeners and clients that happens with these calls is they can feel more exhausting than maybe even. Right. Even in person interactions. Tips or ideas for how to avoid that kind of fatigue for avoid. From these calls draining you.

Yeah. There's actually a name for it that's called zoom fatigue.

Oh, didn't even know that was a thing.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a big thing. So there's a couple of things. One is, is every call doesn't need to have video on it. I mean, I think people just sort of have been defaulting to video. But you really have to think about is video really going to enhance this call? And if it's not, even if you do it on zoom or gotomeeting or whatever, just do it by audio or phone. You don't need to have every. Everything does not have to be a video call. Right. So I think that's one thing is be more judicious about when you use video. That's one thing. Because I guarantee you people have certain meetings that are on video that don't need to be. That's number one.

Yeah. And probably let them know ahead of time. Right. So they don't turn on the video.

Absolutely.

Because I try to do that with people when I know it's going to be audio only, especially with the ladies, because I don't want them to Dress up and put makeup on, and suddenly, oh, no, we're not doing video.

No. I would have been really mad at you if you didn't tell me. And I had done my hair and makeup for this, and you didn't tell me there was no video. I would be very upset.

See, there you go. That's why I have my team. Tell everybody, let them know, audio only. But some people forget, and then they turn on video. They're all. And it's like.

But the opposite can happen. I did a podcast a few weeks ago, and I thought it was audio, and it turned out to be video, and I was not video ready. So I was like, okay, give me 10 minutes. I'll be right back. Fortunately, it wasn't live, because I was like, oh, no, I am not doing video like this. There is no way. I'm talking about branding looking like this and with the lighting this bad. So I think that's one thing. The other thing is leave yourself space in between video calls. This is another thing people don't do. They go back to back to back to back to back, and it exhausts them, right? So they roll from video call to video call to video call. And you really need some space in between to decompress. Because if you pay attention in a different way in video than you do in person, there's not a lot of peripheral distraction on video. And so it's actually harder on the brain, harder on the eyes, et cetera. So having breaks in between is really important. I think. Then the third thing is I call it the walk and talk. If you don't have to be on video. Like, this is a podcast. So I would never go out on the street and walk or go into the park and walk Central park, because I live in New York and walk. But there's lots of calls I take with people where I just put it on the phone. I put my earbuds in, I go out and I take a walk in Central park, and I have the meeting while I'm walking. And that helps to decompress so that when I am on video, it's not like that feeling of I'm sitting at my computer all day long being on Zoom video calls.

That right there just sounds so amazing. I can't believe I hadn't thought of that. Because, you know, Zoom's got the. You got the phone app for it.

Oh, totally. You can completely. I've taken many a Zoom call in Central park walking.

I love it. I don't have Central park, but, yeah, I got my backyard and you know what? That would be just as glorious, especially on a nice afternoon.

Absolutely. So those are some ways to get over zoom fatigue.

I love it. I love it. Yeah, I think you've given us quite a bit here. This makes sense. But so many of these things I hadn't really thought of. And this is simple stuff any of us can do. I love the practicality of what you suggested here. Anything else we didn't talk about. Any other tips that you feel are important or could be helpful, but I didn't ask you about.

You know, it's funny, one of the things I find I do a lot when I'm coaching CEOs or executives or entrepreneurs on this, when I'm doing a session on this with people, is I'll often ask people to also bring a couple of different things that they wear and different colors so that I can look at the colors they're wearing and say, okay, that one's good for this type of meeting. That one's good for this type of meeting. That color is good for this type of meeting. There is really a whole psychology to colors. And so I think thinking about the color you're wearing, like if you're presenting, then of course you want to be in a color that's more dynamic for you. If you're in a supporting role, you know, that's more of like a skin tone color. So I think that you also have to think about how are the colors you're wearing coming across on video and what's the impact that they're having. And by the way, color changes on the screen. So it might look one way, you know, in real life, but then you've got to see what it looks like on the video. That's the only other thing that I would just add to what we've talked about.

Oh, great point. This has been very practical, very insightful. Karen, thank you so much for sharing these ideas with our listeners. And I want to make sure that they know where to reach you and how they can learn more about you and the work you do. Where can I send folks?

Well, you can. There are three places you can send them to. Karen Leland.com K A R E N Leland L E L A N D.com or Sterling Marketing Group goes to the same place. So they can go to my website. They can also get my book, the Brand Mapping Strategy on Amazon, which has some of this information, but not all of it, but a lot of stuff about branding in it. So the brand mapping Strategy on Amazon, they can also find me on LinkedIn as Karen Leland for Sterling marketing group on LinkedIn. And then I do a column for Inc. Magazine, so if they just Google me, I kind of come up all over the place.

That's great. We'll make sure to include all these links, especially the one for the book on in the show notes. So good stuff. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure.

It was like that here as well. And I know that listeners really appreciate everything you shared with them. The High Income Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.