#253: Barbara Huson on How Women Can Reprogram Their Brains for Financial Success

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia, and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. You can find detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com episode 253. Those notes always include a summary of our discussion as well as any links to resources we mentioned during the show. Money is a huge factor of freelance success. Financial struggle has a direct and negative impact on your work. And not only does your work suffer when you're struggling financially, but you're also much more likely to make bad decisions in terms of which clients to take on, which clients to keep, and what work assignments to accept. So as a result, you end up in a dangerous, negative spiral that puts your business in jeopardy. And this is not a gender specific problem. Both men and women can struggle financially, and they do. But women have a different set of challenges because of societal conditioning and other key factors. That's not my opinion. This is what experts say. And in fact, today I have one of those experts. I'm excited to have her on the show. Her name is Barbara Hewson. Barbara is an experienced financial therapist, wealth coach, and author of six acclaimed financial books, including her newly released book, Rewire for Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success. She teaches women to earn the money they deserve, build the wealth they desire, and step fully into their power. In this interview, we cover a number of important questions and issues, including the problem of women under earners, what separates high income women from those who continually struggle to earn a decent living, and the three steps women can take to rewire their brain for financial success. I found this to be a fascinating discussion and frankly, it's not just for the ladies. It's just as relevant for us guys. So guys, don't skip this one based on the title. I'm telling you, you're going to get a lot out of it, too. Hope you enjoy the conversation with Barbara Hewson. Barbara, welcome to the show. I'm so honored to have you here.

Oh, I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

Well, thank you for coming on. This is obviously a super important topic and I can't wait to dive in. I think before we get to some of the many questions that I have for you, I'd love for you to Start with ok, today, what is it that you do today? But then I'd like for you to go back a little bit and talk about the journey to getting to this place. Because I know that just reading about you, your story, what you've been through, this is not a linear path and it's been a kind of a journey of self discovery. I suspect that this is not where you thought you would end up, but you've gotten to a pretty amazing place. And I think it's important for listeners to kind of understand the path you've walked.

Okay. You are so right. I never, never in a billion years thought I'd end up as a financial therapist, as a wealth coach, as an expert on women, wealth and power. Never. I grew up in a wealthy family. My father was the R of H and R block. And the only advice he ever gave me about money was don't worry, don't worry. And I thought that was brilliant advice because I didn't understand money, I just wanted to spend it. And as he always told me, there'll always be a man to take care of you. And there always was. And I married a man who was a stockbroker and a certified financial planner. So I thought he was perfect. But what I found out very early in my marriage is that he was a compulsive gambler. And over the course of our 15 year marriage, he lost a fortune of my inheritance. And here's the insane part. For 15 years, I let him manage the money, knowing this, because that's how intimidated I was by anything with money. Anything. Finally, after 15 years, we got a divorce. And I decided I do not want to deal with money. It's just not my thing. I don't want to deal with it. Well, I have this theory that if you don't deal with your money, your money will deal with you. And in the next year, I got tax bills for way over a million dollars, almost 2 million. And I did not have that. I did not have close to a million. My ex had left the country. My father wouldn't lend me the money. I tried to learn, I really did. And my eyes would glaze over, my brain would fog up. But I had three daughters. One was just a baby. I was not going to raise those girls on the street. And I knew I had to get smart. And I made a commitment. Down to your toes, you know, no back door. I am going to get smart about money. But I had no idea. But I really believe, I really believe that when you make a commitment like a down to Your toes, commitment. The universe revolves to help you reach your goal. And I was a freelancer, journalist, right, Writing for the San Francisco Business Times, among other things. And I was hired for a project, a freelance project to interview women who were financially savvy. And those interviews changed my life. I not only got smart about money, this was in the 1990s, but I wrote my first book, Prince Charming isn't How Women Get Smart About Money. And suddenly I had this whole new career. I was traveling all over the country doing financial education for women, but I couldn't make money, try as I might.

So you knew conceptually. Right, the mechanics, but you couldn't do it yourself, or you hadn't at that.

I knew the mechanics of managing money. I got very good at spending less, saving more, investing wisely, but I couldn't make money. And I remember going to a financial counselor and she told me, she said, you're an under earner. I said, no, I'm not. I'm a writer. Because everyone knows writers don't make money, right?

Yeah.

And so I decided I was going to do what I did with my first book. I was writing my next book, and I interviewed women who made six figures. And I have to tell you, three of the first 15 women I interviewed were freelance writers who were making six figures. And I thought, okay, there went my story. And so I, I started making six figures before I even finished writing my next book, Secrets of Six Figure Women. Now my eighth book is coming out in a couple months. I help others create wealth. Wow.

So this has been lots of twists and turns. I'm curious what it was about. So you said that early on, you understand the managing part, that was kind of the first thing that clicked, which is great, super important. But then the earning part was the one big piece that was missing. What flipped for you? When did that piece start becoming clear?

It kind of developed out of the first one, I think it was. I was interviewing these women who made six and seven figures, and they were very, very confident. But as I got deeper into the interviews, I saw how every single one struggled with fear, struggled with self doubt, felt like a fraud, and were afraid others were going to find out. And I thought, oh my God, that's just like me. But the difference between them and me is they didn't let the fear or the self doubt or feeling like a fraud stop them. It's like I ask under earners, when's the last time you did something you were scared to do and they scratch their head? I'd ask high earners and they say all the time, it's a way of life. It's like I called it the high earner slogan. If it's not illegal or immoral, I just say yes. So what I realized is that fear is not something that needs to stop you. It's an indication you're going to the next level. So even today, whenever I get scared, I say, oh goody, that means whatever I do, I'm going to the next level. So really the number one requirement for overcoming under earning, for going to that next level in anything is with a willingness to be uncomfortable. The willingness to do what you don't think you can't do, what you think you shouldn't do, or what you don't want to do.

That makes a lot of sense because I think the standard logic that a lot of people accept is that if fear is getting in my way, that's a sign that I need to slow down or educate myself more. Stop. Hit the pause button. But what I'm hearing from you, it's actually quite the opposite. That's a really good signal because I get a lot of people, a lot of listeners, when they feel that fear. It's like, okay, I need to take a step back, I need to maybe take more classes. I need to think about this more. But then they never act.

There's a quote by, I think it's Ray Bradbury who said, jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down. And that's exactly what I felt was applied to all the successful women I've interviewed since that book. I've written other books that interviewed successful women. And it's all, you jump off the cliff and you build your wings on the way down. And you don't have to know everything. Not at all. Not at all.

Tell me a little bit about you mentioned under earner. I'd like to get your definition of that term. What does that mean?

An under earner is anyone who earns less than she needs or desires despite her efforts to do otherwise. Under earning has nothing to do with an amount. You, you can make six figures and still be an under earner and you can make far less and not be. I have two daughters. One's a farmer and one's a journalist. And neither one earn a lot of money, but they earn enough to meet their needs and they're doing what they love. They're doing what feeds their soul. Under earning is not just about, it's about deprivation. And not just money, it's deprivation of time, of joy, of choices and Most of all of self esteem.

Gotcha. So it's not a sum, it's not a magic number of six figures because everyone knows who's been there. It's like one point you wish you had that income and then you got there and then you wish you had the next level and the next level after that.

And hey, wealth does not come from what you earn. Wealth comes from what you do with what you earn.

Yes, so true. I definitely want to talk about that. In fact, I'd like to talk about those two different sides because one thing that just really irks me, you hear this a lot in the media is wealthy individuals. But when you hear what they're really talking about, they're really talking about high income earners. And there's a huge difference. I know a lot of high income earners who are not wealthy.

Exactly. There's such a difference between profit and wealth. Huge wealth simply means my definition of wealth is someone who is more than enough. And let me put it in perspective. There's three levels of financial development. Three levels. There's survival, stability and affluence. Survival is not enough. Stability is just enough. And affluence is more than enough. So there's nothing wrong with staying with stability, of having just enough. But I believe going from stability to affluence, having more than enough really is where the fun is, where the joy is and where the power is. Sure.

And you could be in stability on the way to affluence. Right.

And what happens is when people start earning more. This is getting back to your first point. When people start earning more, research has shown they start spending more. Not even consciously. And so it's not what you earn, it's what you keep.

Very good. Let's talk a little bit more about the earning because I'm curious on your take on the income gap, especially in this country, and especially with women too. I mean, we could talk about socioeconomic levels and different ethnicities and all that. And I know this is a huge topic. But when it comes to women in the income gap and the wealth gap are two different things. What are your thoughts on that?

It's a fact. There's a huge gap. There's the wage gap and the wealth gap for women. But you won't change the wealth gap by overcoming the wage gap. Because, you know, I read all these articles on house cleaners and gas station attendants and who make nothing, but they die with millions because they understand there's four rules. You want to hear the four rules of wealth?

Yes.

You spend Less, you save more, you invest wisely, and you give generously, in that order. Most of us have the giving generously part down pat. But giving generously without spending less, saving more, investing wisely is always an act of self sabotage because not only do you jeopardize your own security, but you diminish the impact you can make. So it's really important to spend less than you have, save more than you need, and invest wisely in assets that will grow faster a place and can take it away.

I think it's really wise advice. And I love the fact that you introduced the giving element there as well, because there's a spiritual component there that's really important. In fact, I'd like to maybe segue into the spirituality aspect of this because I know that you are really big into that. You understand that you can't separate these. Again, another big topic. But you know how important that spiritual element, and what does that mean?

So I believe, and this is. I've learned this from experience, creating wealth is a three pronged process. I just added another prong, but let's keep it to these three prongs, that there's the outer work, the inner work, and the higher work of wealth. The outer is the practical. That's understanding the difference between a stock and a bond or understanding how to negotiate for a higher fee. That's important. But when you get stuck there like I did, then you need to go to the inner work. That is really looking at your attitudes, beliefs, and decisions you made about yourself and money and really especially women. What motivates women, once they have a roof over their head and food on the table, it's not more money. They may want to make more money. Yeah, we want more money. But what really motivates us, and I'm sure some men, is to make a difference, is to do what we're here on this planet to do. And that's what I call the higher work of wealth. And that's the spiritual element. It's doing what you're here to do. And you can't possibly pursue your purpose and play full out if you're drowning in debt, if you're struggling to make ends meet, as Michael Beckwith, a preacher at Agape, a big church, said. That's my favorite quote. He said, you can't be the light of the world if you can't pay your light bills.

So true. If you're at that food and shelter level, and I've been there, my experience is you can't think of much else you really can't.

And no, you can't, because you're all focused on survival. And at survival, you cannot be creative.

So let's talk a little bit about how we can work our way up that ladder, if you will. What would be your advice, especially for women? Because I know, like you've mentioned, I think women think of these things a little differently for men. How do you start this process? It just feels a little overwhelming.

Yeah. So let me just suggest. I'll just give you an abbreviated version, but I think it's really powerful to go from survival to stability. The key is you must have a profit motive. You must love money. Money's a good thing. You must be willing to not only keep one eye on your big vision, but the other on the bottom line. You must be very conscious about profit. Okay? Profit is important. To go from stability to. To affluence, you must give up profit as your primary goal. Yes, it is a desired outcome. Yes. You still want profit. Yes, I still want to make a profit, but that's not. That's not the primary goal. The primary goal to reach affluence is greatness. And I define greatness using a link paraphrasing a quote by Fred Buckner. And it said, greatness is that place where your deep gladness, doing what you're put on this earth to do, meets the world's deep hunger. And so I believe that sustained affluence. Sustained. And lots of people can get rich quick and then lose it. But I'm more interested in sustaining and maintaining the influence. And that comes people being purpose driven.

So I'm assuming that when you become purpose driven, that's one of the things that can keep you from falling into the trap of then spending more. Right, Because I get it. You earn more, you keep your eye on.

No, it doesn't stop you from spending more. That's a whole different subject. People overspend usually. As my financial counselor, Karen McCall said to me years and years ago, she said, when I was spending too much, she said, you can never get enough of what you don't really need. And too often people are trying to fill that. Money or what money can buy will never fill. And that's where the inner work of wealth comes in. But being purpose driven does help you. What it does is it gets you over all the obstacles. It keeps you going when the going gets tough and the going will get tough. So having that higher purpose is what keeps you going.

Got it, Got it. So, yeah. And to get there, I think. Would you say that to get clarity on that. You have to be in a better place financially as well.

Not necessarily. No, no, no, no, no. I've worked with people who have been at pretty tough places financially, but once they got clear on their purpose and once they became strategic in their plan to get there, then, wow, they became unstoppable.

Interesting. You say that problems about money are never problems about money. Tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's an interesting quote.

I find this fascinating. So this. I don't work with men, and I've been working with Women for really 40 years, but really 25 years in the field of finances. But I know this is true for women. I noticed that their problems, financial problems, have very little, if anything, to do with money and everything to do with their fear of or ambivalence about power. Because they don't understand what power means. Because becoming wealthy, it's not just about being strategic or spending less and saving more. It's who we have to become as a person to be a container that can attract and hold and grow our wealth. And so my definition of a powerful woman is someone who knows who she is, who knows what she wants, and expresses that in the world unapologetically. And so basically, our fear of power is our fear of becoming fully who we are, of speaking up and asking for what we want, saying no to what we don't, and not watering ourselves down so we don't make waves.

What do you think that comes from for women?

Well, it's how we've been conditioned. But I remember back in 1995, when I was writing my first book, Prince Charming Isn't Coming. I first got my first hint of this as I was listening to women go from being uneducated to educated, from being feeling stupid to being smart about money. And I said to her, and I noticed there was a fear of power they had to overcome, of their power. And I remember saying to a psychologist who specialized in finances, why do you think women are so afraid of their power? And she said to me, something gave me chill. She said, because powerful women have been burned at the stake. And I think for many women, historically, we've had stepping into our power, there has been sometimes drastic consequences, some severe punishment.

That is interesting when you say that. And I look back throughout history, even, like way back, I mean, I think there's so much truth to that.

That's so nice to hear a man understand that.

Well, yeah, it's interesting if you know your history. And I mean, I'm a history buff. I'm certainly no expert, but yeah, I can certainly see that. So you're saying that maybe that's been carried through, through time and just taught in the women so that they have a different conditioning than men who are supposed to be out there, strong, hunt, provide, etc.

Well, I don't think it's been taught. I think it has been passed on through our. I don't know if that's our DNA or I don't know. But I also believe there's a second part is that men are very afraid of women's power because for men, power generally speaking means power over. Women define power as power with. So I think men are afraid that if we become powerful, we're going to castrate them or whatever. I don't know. And so that's why I wrote my, one of my books, Sacred Success, because I wanted men to understand that that's not what we want. We really do want power with. Women are very relationship oriented. And I really believe that when empowered women can work with enlightened men, women, we can heal this planet and change this world. And our world needs that now more than ever.

Tell me more about power with. What does that mean? Because I mean, I can understand power over, but power with meaning it's not mutually exclusive.

Meaning we find power through collaboration. We power through relationship.

Makes sense.

So I don't need to say any more about that. You want?

Yeah, no, it's perfectly clear. I just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant by with. Tell me a little bit about. I know recently you've been really getting more and more into the neuroscience of all of this and I'm curious to hear how you got or arrived at that revelation, that insight, and maybe talk a little bit about what you mean by it and why it's important.

Oh, cool. I'm so excited to talk about this. Yes. So about six years ago, I started getting this sense that something was missing in my work. I had no idea. It's just this overwhelming sense something was missing. And this kind of feeling grew and grew until I felt like, I don't know, I just, I became obsessed with it.

And Barbara, by the way, not to interrupt you, just real quick, at that point though, you had helped a lot of women with this stuff, right? So it's not like it wasn't working. You weren't getting through to people.

Oh no. Oh no. In fact, I just had just finished the 2014. I don't know, I just finished this huge workshop I did. It was in Chicago and it was sold out. It was called Women's Wealth Weekend, and it was fabulous. And I came home from that feeling excited about the impact, and at the same time, started getting this niggling feeling something was missing. And this went on for months. And one day, I was sitting at my computer, and in my inbox came an article on neuroscience. I knew nothing about neuroscience. Nothing. I knew it was a study of the brain. But beyond that, I read this article, and I swear something in my brain lit up like a Christmas tree, and it said, this is it. This is your missing link. I had no idea, but intuitively, I felt I had to pursue it. So I did. I started reading everything I could about neuroscience. I started incorporating principles of neuroscience into my work, and I started giving workshops. I started giving retreats. I started giving mentorship programs. And I think the thing that caught me was that it was looking at how men and women's brains and how they process financial information differently. And the thing that really caught my attention was in the. That men and women see investing very differently. For men, men see investing and getting into the market as a challenge, an exciting challenge. Women see investing as a threat. And because our primitive brains were designed for one reason, and one reason only is survival. That women unconsciously fear their survival, feel that their absolute survival is being threatened. And so they kind of avoid anything to do with investing or wealth building. And so I realized this. I needed to work with women's brains. I need to understand how to rewire their brains. And so I can talk some more about that if you want. I don't know.

Yeah, I'm curious to hear how you did that, and maybe what one of the biggest breakthroughs was in this area.

So when I became to understand that our brain controls everything we do, literally everything. Inhaling, exhaling, saving, spending, every action we take, all our behaviors are controlled by our brain. Now, our brain is a physical organ in our skull, in our body, right? And it works on electrical chemical impulses. Our mind is not an organ. Our mind is an intangible entity that's the source of our thoughts and feelings, but they work together in tandem. What flows through our mind is what wires our brain. So every time you have a thought, let's say a thought, there's never enough or I'm not enough. Every time you have that thought, it sends electrical chemical signals to the brain that then goes to the neural pathway that matches that or builds a new neural pathway that's not there. And every time that thought comes, it's like it sends little shovels to dig that Ditch that neural pathway, deeper and deeper until that thought becomes wired in the brain and it becomes a hardwired habit. And trying to change those hardwired habits is like going against gravity. It is really hard. So the way to shift, to change those embedded neural pathways is to shift our thinking. Who was it, Napoleon Hill who wrote Think and Grow Rich? I don't know how many years ago. Yeah, if you can't control what you think, you can control what you do. So I always knew mindset was important, but I never understood that it's not enough just to change your thinking or try to. You need to understand how to rewire the brain to change your thoughts and rewire those neural pathways. Because every time you stop thinking that thought and replace it with another, you weaken that neural pathway and you strengthening a new one. So does that make sense?

It does, it does. And I wonder if you can give us maybe a simple example of how this works. Maybe like before and after, I will.

Give you an even better. What I think is better is three steps on a hardship. So I boiled it down to three simple steps. Simple, but not easy. Because anytime you try to rewire your brain, your brain will scream, stop. Stop. Don't do that. It's dangerous. It's like, really? It has a fierce suck. It sucks us in. Also, anytime you try to rewire your brain to think different thoughts, to shift your behavior, you're actually experiencing chemical withdrawal. Because every thought releases a chemical in the brain. And when you shift that, it literally, your brain feels a chemical withdrawal. And you just want to go back. It's like. It's like, oh, God, I want to have another drink. And also, every time you're tired or you're stressed, you're just going to go back to the path of least resistance, which is the strongest neural pathway. So the way to shift that, there's three steps. Okay, three steps. First, I'm going to give them to you quickly, and then I'm going to explain each one briefly. And then we can go wherever you want to go.

Okay?

The first step is recognize. The second is reframe, and the third is respond differently. So recognize whenever you have a negative thought. Observe that. Okay, I'm going to use my example, I'm going to use my personal story because this just happened a couple weeks ago.

Okay.

So my team got this idea to do this project, a project that I didn't understand, and I don't want to go into it. It takes too long. But it's a project I didn't understand, and I Felt very incapable. And it scared me. It scared me. And my team convinced me I needed to do it. And I saw the wisdom of that. So I started recognizing that. I kept having this thought that I don't have what it takes. And I've had this thought. I've had this thought a lot when I was growing up, but it came back with a vet, not I don't have what it takes. So I recognized it. I recognized means I simply observed it. Oh, I'm having a thought. I don't have what it takes. So when you can observe it like a bystander, an objective bystander. Oh, I'm having a thought. That separates you from your thought, because your thoughts are not the truth. They're just a thought that's been conditioned or programmed or indoctrinated in you. And you observe it with curiosity, not judgment, not criticism. Oh, isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought that I don't have what it takes. And then I went to the second step, which is reframing it. Reframing is simply seeing it differently, shifting your perspective. And so I thought, hmm, how can I see I don't have what it takes? How can I see that differently? How can I reframe that? And I kind of went through a couple iterations and I hit, wait, I can handle this. That was my thought. I can handle this. Whatever it is, I can handle it. And I have a post it note. I'm looking at it right now. I wrote down, I can handle this. So I observed it. Isn't that interesting? I'm having a thought about not having what it takes. Oh, I reframed it. I can handle this. And then I responded differently. And respond. Everything in my body wanted to say no to my team. Everything in my body did not want to do that. And I said yes. And then I had to write all these emails and all these scripts and all this stuff and create this program. And I didn't want to do it. Everything in me said, don't do it. And I did it anyway. And eventually it got easier. It got easier because as those old neural pathways weaken and I started building, I can handle this. I can handle this. I started being able to handle it. And the project, which I did last week, was actually enormously successful and really fun.

Interesting. You know what it reminds me of, Barbara, is the story you shared earlier in our conversation about these six figure earners, these women, six figure earners who faced the fear and did it anyway. Right? Maybe they weren't sure they were doing it, but they chose to reframe it and respond differently. And I wonder too, I've seen people, and we've all been there to some degree, who maybe they just had no choice. At first. They had no choice, they reframed, they responded differently. And just because it was a matter of I got to feed my kids, for instance, and because of that they shifted.

So let me suggest they recognized that they had to do it differently. But the part that was missing was the reframe for most of us, including me.

Yes.

When I got my million, over a million dollars in tax bill, I knew I had to ship. I knew I couldn't keep avoiding money. I could not. And it took me, it was a big struggle and it took me a long time to get smart. It took me a long time and it was a struggle because I didn't have the reframe. I didn't have the reframe. I can handle this, which would have helped me. So, yes, absolutely. We are rewiring our brain all the time. All the time, all the time. I just want to help people, make it easier, more efficient, less of a struggle.

I think what you just shared with us is a very practical way and simple. Like you said, it doesn't mean it's easy that people can walk away with and start practicing immediately because this conversation we're having with ourselves and the self critic, it just doesn't stop talking. This is a very practical thing that. I mean, probably right now you're even thinking of something that, oh, I can't do that. That you can start recognizing and maybe start this process. Do you think this is a really good first step toward moving in the right direction in terms of reprogramming your brain for achieving financial success?

This is a great first step. However, I'm just going to put a caveat in there. If you've had trauma, if you are struggling with shame, two very, very powerful emotions, shame and trauma, and they usually go together. Yeah. If there's been, if there's shame, there's been trauma that will undermine your process. So what's important is if you're finding the resistance is so powerful and resistance always comes up. And resistance isn't bad, it's just a sign you're changing. But when the resistance is impenetrable, when it doesn't move, that's when I think either some type of inner work, deep intervention, emotional intervention is important.

That's a great point. I don't want anyone out there feeling, God, there's something wrong with me. I can't break through. If you're dealing with some things that are just beyond the scope of this, you got to go deeper.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah. Barbara, this has been. Wow, there's so much in here. I got a lot of notes and I want to make sure we don't wrap up without you telling us about your new book, which, in fact, it's about rewiring your brain for wealth. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Yeah. It's called Rewire for Wealth. It's three steps any woman can take to reprogram her brain for financial success. Way too long of a subtitle, but that's what my publisher.

I like it, though. It's specific.

Okay, good. Thank you. I'm glad to have that feedback because I didn't like it. But anyway, that's another story. So anyway, it's Rewire for Wealth and it really talks about how rewiring works. It goes into depth with lots of stories about the three steps. And then it talks about three power tools, which I didn't mention, which if you have trouble rewiring and everyone does, here are some power tools that will help you power through. And it is available for pre sale now. Exciting. And it will come out January 12th.

Excellent. Well, we will make sure to link to your book in the show notes and for folks who want to learn a little bit about you, a little bit more about your work. Where can I send them?

Send them to my website, Barbara houston. H u s o n.com and let me just suggest, let me just say something, that all my other books are written by Barbara Stani. Well, actually, that was my name before I changed it two years ago. I've been married for eight years, but it took me six years to decide to change my name. So all my books are Barbara Stani. And if you want to know why I finally decided to change it, you can go to my website, Barbara hewson.com h u s o N and it'll tell you why.

Perfect. Well, Barbara, thank you so much for sharing all this wisdom, all these ideas with us. I really appreciate you coming on. It's been wonderful.

Thank you. Yeah, you're great. Thank you. I really like talking to you.

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