#300: What Copywriters Must Do to Thrive in the Next Few Years, with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business.

To a whole new level.

And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries. And talk about downloads, here we are on episode 300. Wow. Can't believe we're here. It's been a quite a ride. The show is born nine and a half years ago, and I gotta be honest, it's been way more successful than I ever imagined it would be. So thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for taking me with you on your car rides, your road trips, your walks, your workouts.

And then as we're talking about that, I actually, it's funny, I got an email from bluehost, and bluehost was having this sale on domain names with the ending club C L U B. And it was like $1.99 to get that. So I hopped on. I just thought, well, I Wonder if copywriter.club is taken. And then. And it wasn't. And so I bought it for $2 or whatever. And I thought, well, I wonder if copywriterclub.com, you know, and so I bought that. And then I was like, what am I even gonna do with this thing? Like, I didn't have an idea for a business because Kira then said, let's start a podcast. We started that and has turned into something much bigger than at least my initial thoughts of what it might be.

That's interesting. I didn't know that it was launched with a podcast. And how long was it before it became more than just a PODC podcast?

Yeah, so we launched the podcast. I think we launched with like four episodes on January 1, 2017. We also, I think the same day, we opened up a Facebook group, because we thought, well, if people are listening and they want to talk about what we're talking about or we want to talk to some of our guests, we could have this. And we opened that up and Kira went to work. Like, Kira was, like, really dedicated in inviting every single copywriter that we could find online anywhere. She would go into other Facebook groups or she would find lists of copywriters online in places, and she just started emailing them saying, hey, we've got this Facebook group. You ought to come and join. And so the group itself actually grew really quickly. I think we got to like 500 members in a number of a few weeks, maybe 10 weeks. And then people started inviting their friends. And literally within six months, I think we had almost 2,000 members. It was crazy how fast it went. And it's because Kira did all of that work in inviting so many people to come and join us.

Well, so tell us today what the Copywriter Club is all about.

So today the podcast continues. We just had our 300th episode. We've hit a million downloads, which is incredible. The community has evolved, so now it's turned into a membership and we have built training programs to help writers build their business. So we focused on that in our accelerator program that helps them put together their business and then in our think tank, which is more of a high level mastermind where we help copywriters scale their business and create new revenue streams so they don't have to depend solely on the one on one service work. And we're creating new offers all the time now and really excited about that piece of it. We've also created an event, TCC irl, that we've hosted five times now. Yeah.

Four times in real life and one time virtually during COVID Right, right.

So the core of it is just bringing copywriters together and helping them build their business so it can last.

Got it. Okay. So that's pretty amazing. That's very fast growth in, you know, five years or so. Let's kind of shift gears a little bit and talk about copywriting content writing. Before we started recording, unfortunately, we had an awesome conversation about this. So we're going to try to recreate that conversation.

We can recreate it.

We can do it. We'll even do better. Okay, so here's what I'm thinking. These terms are used interchangeably. Many people in my tribe are content marketing writers. They're writing educational content for businesses a lot in B2B. But the word copywriting, content writing, these things kind of get thrown around. They're used interchangeably. What are your thoughts on kind of the different silos? Are there silos? I'll let you comment.

I have so many thoughts.

Bob doesn't have any thoughts on this topic. No, Rob, you should kick it off.

No passion behind it at all.

No passion.

You will not hear any passion when he answers this.

I think I told you, Ed. Your friend Sarah Griesenbach and I disagree about some of the splits. We met at TCC IRL this past year and we're kind of arguing in the hall about that. And we pointed at each other, said, I think we're going to agree to disagree on this one, but I come from an agency background. In the 90s, before the Internet was really a big thing, I worked at an ad agency, and the copywriters wrote everything. And that meant that we wrote scripts for TV commercials or radio commercials. We wrote the copy that went on the menus for the restaurants that we worked for. We wrote brochure copy. We, you know, ultimately we were writing web copy and online sales pages. But, like, copywriters wrote everything. Packaging copy. Anything that's called content today, anything that's called copywriting today, we wrote it, and it was written by copywriters. And so that's probably why I think that in spite of the fact that there are a lot of people who are invested in keeping them separately, there are people in the direct response copywriting area that turn their noses up at content writers because they're not selling, supposedly. And then there's content writers who see themselves as creating something that's maybe it's above selling. And so I think a lot of people want to keep these things separate. But to me, anytime that you are using words to forge a relationship or further a relationship with a customer, and as copywriters, we do that for ourselves as well as for our clients. That's copywriting. And sometimes we do it in things that we define as content today. And it's not heavily sales focused, but it is designed to grow that relationship with the client or with the customer. And sometimes it's really heavily sales focused. And, you know, that tends to be called copywriting more than content writing. But it's all really the same game. I think I said that they're all different legs on the same octopus. Right. It's really the same thing where we're trying to connect and forge relationships with customers in order to get them to act eventually.

I like the idea of, you know, moving things along because so much content, good content, is supposed to do that. So that makes a lot of sense. Now, let's talk about a flavor that I've seen emerge over the past few years, this idea of conversion copywriting. So how would you define that? How would you describe it?

Yeah, so again, conversion copywriting is really just a new name on an old practice. We used to call it direct response copywriting, but as it moved online, I think people were searching for a new name. In fact, it may have been Joanna Wieb that really coined the phrase conversion copywriting, but it's really applying direct response principles. Talking directly to your customer, tracking behavior, seeing what's happening on a sales page or through a sales funnel or whatever. And then being able to change your marketing based on how your customer reacts, whether they buy or not, whether they move the next step of the funnel, it's really just direct response marketing. But having moved it online, I think people were looking for just a different way of talking about it. In my head, there's really no difference. People like Brian Kurtz, who is really One of the OGs of direct response copywriting that he worked for Boardroom, and they were mailing literally millions of pieces of mail every year. Like, it's the same principles that those guys were inventing that just, you know, Facebook and Google enable in a. In a much easier to use interface.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you're right, Joanna Weave is where I first heard this from, but I was curious about your take or if it felt like something very different from this. So in terms of the people you guys work with, what do you typically see in terms of what kind of clients are working with and what kind of projects they're working on? I just kind of want to have a little bit of context before we start diving into the trends that you're seeing out there.

Yeah, I mean, we work with copywriters in a wide range of niches and industries, and so they could be writing many different deliverables. It could be website copy, it could be email sequences, it could be they're focused on brand strategy. Or we work with content strategists and content writers as well. So we, I mean, for me personally, I enjoy working with a diverse group of copywriters because we're a community based organization. So we want to bring them together and learn from each other. And to me, it would not be as enriching or interesting if we all were doing the same thing. So I think what most of them have in common is that they have a services based business where it's done for you copywriting, it's intensive, it's high touch, and we share a lot of similar pain points and struggles because it can be intense at times, around burnout, around boundaries. And so that's what we all seem to have in common. But a wide range of businesses, there's not one category.

There's not, you know, one or two categories.

And it's interesting too, as we work with a lot of these copywriters. Well, maybe not a lot, but certainly maybe 10, 15% as we are working through their businesses, a lot of them discover that ultimately they don't really want to call themselves content writers. Or copywriters, because they're using content or copy to do something different. Maybe they're strategists doing content strategy, or maybe they're doing social media. And so copywriting is the superpower. It's the thing that they're doing. But because they're thinking bigger and they're solving bigger business problems for their clients, the title stops fitting perfectly. And, you know, they start thinking, I'm more of a consultant, I'm more of a strategist, I'm more of a problem solver. Ultimately, that's how we see copywriters, content writers in our groups, is that we are solving business problems for our clients, usually with copy, but sometimes with something else.

You know, that's a good entry point into the next thing I wanted to talk about. I really want to focus on trends, what you're seeing, seeing out there as you work with many different types of copywriters, content writers, strategists, et cetera. I've been seeing the same trends. So a lot of writers seem to be shifting away from, hey, I'm just the writer or a copywriter, and really kind of focusing on their writing chops and instead pulling back a little bit and talking about the problems they help solve. The dilemma that a lot of people face, because on the surface, that makes perfect sense, is pulling back too much in making your value proposition too vague, if that makes sense. So what's the sweet spot? How can you best communicate your value when somebody is looking for someone like you so that they understand they meet you where they are, or you meet them where they are, and you don't kind of miss the whole thing. You don't come in with something that's too abstract or something that's too tactical, and they feel, well, that's not who I need. I need somebody who can help me with these bigger problems.

Yeah. I think the first part is niching down, which Rob and I talk about a lot in our podcast, and so that you understand your clients enough to know, are they looking for a copywriter? Is that the language they're using? Because they're savvy enough in the online marketing space that they know they need a copywriter, or maybe that's not something they're familiar with. If it's a business that isn't as familiar with what copywriters do, and we know a lot of people aren't familiar with copywriters, and they're just talking about the fact that they need clients or they need clients to stay, they need to retain clients. So I would want to find out the language they're using. And that only happens if you know your niche and your audience and understand what they're talking about, what they're struggling with, what they're asking for. So you can be in the right place and using the same language to match where they're at today.

Yeah, it makes sense.

I would suggest, you know, when we interviewed you on our podcast, you actually talked about prospecting calls and some of the process there. And it really starts with, you know, part of what you shared. But it's that first interview, you know, when you're talking with your clients. Clients often come to us and say, hey, I need help with a case study, Or, I need a website. And rather than starting the conversation there and saying, okay, how many pages? Or how do we start the case study? Who am I talking to? We should back up and ask some deeper questions. What's the problem that you're trying to solve with that website or with that case study or with whatever the thing is that they think they need? Because usually your client is pretty smart and they know the thing they're asking for will solve the problem that they have. But sometimes they don't realize what it is exactly that they're trying to fix. Yeah, I need more customers, and so a new website will bring me new customers. Well, maybe a new website won't bring you new customers. Maybe we need to think about, you know, a content strategy or some kind of customer outreach or, you know, so being able to take a step back and ask deeper questions about business problems is really important. And I think that's when copywriters really become valuable to their clients instead of being order takers. This is something we talk about in our accelerator program, these different levels that we have in our business. Instead of being somebody who's there as a vendor and just taking the order and filling the order, you start to become a consultant. You start to be remarkable. You offer things that they don't have ready access to already. And that differentiates copywriters or content writers, however you want to define that from the other service providers that most businesses are working with. It's like you need somebody to take the mail to the mailbox. Okay, I can do that. Right. Or you need somebody to come and clean the office. And instead we start to help them up, level their business, and the thinking they're doing that, then we're really solving a problem.

Yeah, we're so well aligned on this, it's spooky. I talk to my clients a lot about order taker versus trusted advisor and that spectrum. And it is so true. Now I'm going to bring up a few concerns and a few things that I'm seeing and hearing other people talk about. One is, yeah, I can see that, Kira and Rob, but I don't know if I'm really that person. I don't know if I have the experience, the expertise, the credentials. I'm just good at writing. What would you say to somebody like that or somebody who says that sounds great. How do I learn that stuff? I didn't go to business school.

That's a good question. I mean, as far as credentials, if you're already a good writer, you're solving problems. So either you're writing website copy and you're helping someone sell services on their website or you're writing emails that might be selling a product. So I would look at what you've already been doing because there's a problem you're solving now. So don't try to get two steps ahead. Just start with where you are and speak to that problem and focus on being the best at solving the problem you're currently solving. Just speak about it differently and test it, maybe talk about it in a different way and experiment with how you talk about the value you're providing for your clients and think more deeply about the work that you hand over to your client and how that's going to help them over the next couple months. If you give them email sequence, how will that help them over the next year? And so start to talk about those results and the long term value you're providing with the work you're already doing rather than forcing yourself to solve really big problems that maybe you aren't comfortable solving yet.

And how would you address those things if you don't have documented results? Right. I know that I can help, but my clients don't track this stuff. Like how can you then explain it?

Yeah, well there's a learning process here, right? Like nobody starts with client number one and comes in, you know, in a CMO type role or even that trusted advice, right? There's learning that has to happen. And so depending on where you are in your writing journey, it's going to start coming easier. You've got things to learn. That does not mean that you need to work eight years before you understand how to fix a particular problem. You can jumpstart that learning process by picking up a couple of decent books about marketing. So one that I've recommended quite a bit to people if you want to learn the basics of marketing is Perry Marshall's 8020 marketing book. It will walk you through really probably 80% of what you funny that the title is 80 20, but about 80% of the marketing that you need to know in order to solve your client's problems. Being direct by Lester Wonderman's another. It's an older book, but a great primer on how do you solve problems for your clients. Brian Kurtz, I mentioned him earlier, he has a great book that does something very similar. So you can read really good books that will help teach you some of that stuff. There are also horses, you know, marketing certifications, Digital marketer has some. You know, they're copywriters and I mean, you have programs that teach some of this stuff. Ed, we do something similar and so you can do that too. But really it's the experience of working with clients and identifying the problems that they have and then thinking about those problems. So, you know, as you get on those calls, you know, tell me about your business. Tell me what you're struggling with. Okay, we can work on this website, but I'm also going to start thinking about the problem of attracting clients to your website. What are the things that can fix that? Is it posting content on a blog? Is it some kind of a link strategy? Is it an ad campaign? And just start thinking about, if I had to solve this problem for myself, what would I do? Start putting ideas together. And then it's a matter of learning from experience.

Yeah. And to get to the basics, if you do not have a portfolio yet and you are just getting started, ultimately, when a prospect's sitting across from you on a sales call, they just want to know that they can trust you, that you actually care about this project and you'll give it your all. And you can prove that by presenting yourself well on a call. And there's a lot that can go into that piece, but also just by pulling in some testimonials from previous coworkers. If you've been working in house for a corporation, pull in some of those testimonials that speak to problems you solved there. Even if it's a different problem, it's okay. It shows that you're a problem solver and it can also speak to your character and that you deliver on what you say you're going to do. And so I think all of that from your previous career, you can pull in so people can trust you.

Yeah. And the issue that I'm facing, because most of my audience, they're already, they've been out there for a while, they're established. This is more of a. I've been presenting myself as a great writer, and now I'm realizing that I have to be more than just a writer. And they don't recognize that they're maybe already doing those things. So I love what you guys are sharing here because you already have it. It's really just kind of a reframe. And then in my mind, this is your biggest value is really pattern recognition and problem solving. And most of us have that. I mean, if you've been at this for a while and you're good and you're established and successful, you have it. Maybe you just don't realize it. Maybe you're not using it as much as you should, but you're there. Because how many times have we listened to a client in especially kind of in the first few years, and you just kind of follow the instructions, but you're thinking to yourself, yeah, I don't think they're thinking about this the right way. But you don't say anything.

Yeah. And that's a learned habit. Right. Like, you need to learn how to start standing up and saying, hey, actually think about this differently. You know, you're there to serve your client. And the way you phrase it, you know, order taker versus trusted advisor. If you are not willing to be a trusted advisor and all your client can depend on you is just to do what you're told, somebody eventually is going to come along who's willing to say, actually, if you think about this a little bit differently, you're going to get a better result and you'll be replaced. And that's okay, too. We learn when that happens, it's like, oh, I wasn't serving them in the higher level that I should have. The next time this happens, I'm going to speak up. And very few of us come to copywriting at age 17, 18, graduating from high school. They're. We all have some level of experience, whether it's, you know, college, previous job experience. All of that experience is valuable in what you're saying, you know, pattern recognition, starting to recognize the problems, the challenges that you're working on. We just have to uncover it, let it out of our brains and be brave enough to speak up.

So tell me a little bit about. Cause you mentioned you work with a couple of different levels, and for your kind of more established, more seasoned folks, I'd be curious to hear a little bit about some of the smart business models that you're seeing some copywriters adopt that seem to be working really well. Right now and whether it's because of, you know, that particular set of skills or the market right now, I'd just love to hear some ideas from you guys.

Yeah, I mean, one model that's working well is more intensive ways of working with clients. So. So that could be. A lot of people call them VIP days. We're seeing work well is expanding that so it's more of an intensive. Some people work really well delivering after one day. That's not my style. But you could spread it out over a week or maybe it's just three days where you work with a client and focus on their deliverables and solving a problem during that time. But it's working well today because clients appreciate the immediacy of it and that they can get that problem solved in a couple of days and they're willing to pay premium pricing for that. And the fact that it's a little bit more high touch, you can make it feel VIP or not. I think it's more important that there's a strict timeline, there's a start date and end date and it doesn't become this nebulous project that just continues to go and go and go. I think that's working really well for copywriters because we can control it. We can control. If it's just a day, we can fit it into our schedules and then we can take other projects that might be longer term projects.

So it's like a workshop style format.

It could be, and it can take many different forms. It could be where you disappear and you go into your cave and you don't check in with your client until you hand over the deliverables at the end of the day. Some writers prefer to be more collaborative and on zoom, brainstorming and writing copy together. So I think you can make it your own. I would prefer to go in my copy cave and disappear and then hand over the deliverable at the end. But it's great that it can work in many different ways. So I think copywriters are getting creative with how they structure it and seeing that it doesn't have to be just one way.

Got it. So instead of hey, what do you need? I hope you have it all specked out because I'm just going to take an order. You're saying, hey, I think we should create an engagement here where we workshop this thing or we brainstorm, we throw some ideas on the whiteboard, then I can get to work and make this happen, then present it to you and show you how to implement it. So like you said, Kira. It could take many different forms, but something like that, right? Stark contrast from the. What do you need?

Exactly. And it could be more structured where, you know, you do certain things. Like I could work on a launch. And over that week you have my full attention as the copywriter and strategist working on the launch. But by the end of the week, I'm going to hand over every deliverable you need to launch your product. So it's really clear as far as what I'm delivering and how I'm helping you. Or it could be more your style. Right. Where it's a little bit more like, let's solve this big problem and figure out what the priority is. And then I'm going to focus on that.

Very cool. I like that.

Yeah. I mean, as I think about business models too, Ed, I know you weren't asking this question this way, but I think a lot of people ask this question they're looking for like, what's the one way? What's the one way to success? And the truth of the matter is there is no one way. And anybody who's selling you the one way is I think, leading a lot of people down the wrong path. Any model can work for any copywriter. It's really figuring out what works for you. So Kira's talking about these intensives that would not work for me in my business. A VIP intensive is not how I want to structure my business. Right. And so I'm going to structure it some other way. And some copywriters.

What might that be? What might that be?

So yeah, so, you know, maybe it's a projects where, you know, there's the regular process of dealing with a project. So maybe I have a VA who's helping me gather research and we're going through this while I'm working with two or three other clients at the same time. Right. So instead of focusing intensively on one for a week, I've got three or four clients at different stages, you know, so that's one way other copywriters who you maybe set up agencies or mini agencies where they're working with a VA or you know, some kind of another integrator, you know, business type person in order to serve your clients. And that's a model that can work for some others who want to just do products. Right. They don't want to really write for clients at all, but they're selling products either to other copywriters or in their niche and maybe even still others who are maybe the most successful and they're combining these in A way that works for their business. And I think the important thing isn't necessarily to say, oh, Kira's really successful with this one thing, and so I'm going to do that, but rather to take a step back and just say, okay, what do I need for my business from a financial standpoint, from a time standpoint, what kinds of clients do I want to work with? And then figure out what's the model that's going to work for you. And that can change over time too. You know, a lot of us move from working exclusively with clients to all products because we get tired of working with clients or, you know, some other combination, right?

No, no. And that wasn't my intention. Hey, what is the one thing that's working now? What I was hoping to do is maybe throw three or four ideas out there for people to self identify, you know? You know what, that sounds like a cool idea. I could totally do that. Heck, I'm doing that right now for free maybe. Right. So would you say that really the whole idea is to think more creatively about your business model? Right?

Yeah. And be willing to experiment and try and say, okay, well, that intensive model where I get in and out in three days doesn't work for me. But also like, maybe it's something that you're already doing for your clients and you're not actually charging for it. Maybe you aren't even really selling it. It's just a deliverable that you give to them. You know, a lot of copywriters create these brilliant brand messaging guides that is just part of their research process. And then they go and do the website copy and they don't even hand those over to their clients. It's just an internal guide. Meanwhile, those are worth $5,000, sometimes $10,000. And so I think a lot of it is just look at what you're already doing internally. And could you turn any of those assets into deliverables you could actually sell to your client? Of course, you could always give them as like a bonus or just a really nice treat. But for me, I would just look at that. How can you sell that? But as far as trends, we also are seeing a lot of copywriters selling brainstorm sessions, you know, really starting to think of themselves as, I'm not just a writer, I have ideas to share. And so I'm going to charge for that. And it could be an hour session, it could be a 90 minute session, but it's nice to be able to bring in an extra $500 for those sessions.

I like That a lot. And it sounds like again, that may be born from taking a step back and asking yourself, hey, what do I typically do in a client engagement? And you know, kind of bucketizing each of those elements instead of looking at it as one big thing and asking, you know, what can I splinter off and sell on its own? Because a brainstorming engagement, I mean, you're probably doing that in almost every project.

We're already doing it, so you may as well charge for it and get a win for your client. Impress them and get paid for it.

And of course, with any of these, tell me if you agree. I think it's important to really define the outcomes in terms of value. So it's not just, hey, a brainstorming session that doesn't have inherent value in it. What do I get out of it? So let's take that example. Like, what would you say if somebody's thinking, yeah, I like that a lot. I'm a great brainstormer. How can I frame that in a way that's going to be much more attractive? Yeah, we're brainstorming a brainstorming session.

Yeah, exactly.

Very meta.

You need to do that also with like, that's the biggest problem for me for, with a VIP day, this is like, okay, I'm buying time, but what am I really getting beyond, you know, six hours of your time? And it would be the same thing with a workshop or with a brainstorming session. So assuming that you're talking to the right kinds of clients, because not all clients are going to be interested in a brainstorming session, you may need to invent some other kind of a workshop or whatever. But they're probably looking for ideas, maybe they're naming ideas. So you've got a product that you're going to release and you need to come up with a name that's unique, that describes the thing that it does that works with the rest of the product suite that your clients has and offers, that connects with the user base. Right. So that's one potential use. And so, you know, if you hire Rob to come and do a brainstorming session for your business, we're going to end that three hour session with a list of names that they can take to the legal department that meet the criteria or whatever. So that's maybe one potential thing. You could even take a step back and say, hey, I can help you brainstorm an entire product suite. So maybe your client is providing, let's say they're financial advisors and that's a pretty typical. Everybody offers the same thing, right. Why not go in and help them invent some new way of engaging or some. You're maybe not inventing a new investment product, but maybe there's a new suite of investments that you could advise based on some kind of a life cycle thing. Or you know, you've got kids in college, so this is the kids in college investment plan. Right. And some of these things actually exist. So I'm not necessarily brainstorming great ideas as we talk about it, but there's all great examples, all kinds of things that you can do as a copywriter, as a consultant, as a problem solver that helps your client move their business forward. And by the way, if you help them invent a product that you know, and we're not just talking about like a $4,000 website, we're talking about a product that maybe brings in six or seven figures a year. Four years, what's that worth? Now that brainstorming session really isn't a $500 session. Maybe it's a $25,000 session. And because you obviously you couldn't lead with that, but if you have a track record of creating these kinds of products, ultimately that time is significantly value and is valuable. And as you talk about it, you can increase the rates that you charge. And I mean, you can make a very good living just doing that.

Right?

So all kinds of things you could do with that kind of a service.

So a couple of things that I want to underscore. One is the fact that you can do it any way you want. Like this could be a loss leader, it could be a high end offer. You don't have to give it away. It just depends on your market, it depends on your confidence level, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish here. And then the other thing that I wanted to highlight is coming back to something you guys said earlier, the importance of niching down. I mean, a brainstorming session doesn't feel described that way like it has real inherent value. But we're talking about a brainstorming session to help you develop a product suite. As a financial advisor, I mean, that is so narrow. We're talking vertical positioning, horizontal positioning, and you're bringing in your whole experience in that market. Or hey, I have these brainstorming sessions to help you develop and create smarter launches. Right? Well that's. Man, that could be a great, maybe not a loss leader, but a great way to get in the door. And then of course you're going to be the obvious choice to help them implement that, right? You're going to be their copywriter to create it because they have it here. They could do it themselves internally if they wanted to. But more than likely after that experience, they're going to hire you.

Yeah, I think that's a good point. We're talking about brainstorming sessions, but giving it a name, making sure there is a process, even if it is a brainstorming session, really at the heart of it, there's a process you could speak to, there is a promise, there's an idea behind it, and you're bringing more to the table than just some people can get away with it. And just say, hey, we're just going to, you know, jam for an hour and you're gonna. It's gonna be worth every penny. But they've already established their credibility if they're doing that at this point. And so for most people, they need to be really clear about what I'll get if I walk away from that hour with you.

Yeah, no, that's must do. Heck, you're a copywriter. You should be able to do that. I know it's harder to do.

You should be able to do this.

For our own stuff is always harder. But yeah, great, great point. As we start wrapping up, I'm curious about, and I know this is going to sound like a leading question, but it's really not meant to be this. I find that a lot of writers and copywriters hesitate to invest in themselves, you know, continuing education. But if you're talking about constantly improving your value, they're the experience you have with clients. But it may not all come from there. You know, what would be your best advice, even if you didn't have the Copywriters Club, in terms of what people should do to invest in themselves?

Oh, I've got thought.

I'm sure we've got a lot of thoughts on this.

Yeah. How long do we have? There's so many different ways I'm going to cover a couple. I think a lot of it's just figuring out what you need right now in your career, in your business journey. What do you need? For a lot of writers, it's confidence. A lot of writers at all stages that it doesn't matter.

Can you buy that off the shelf?

Right, right. Can you buy confidence? But figuring out it's different for everybody. But this is where you have to do some internal reflection. But what is going to give me confidence for some people, it may be getting approval from colleagues, from mentors. So if that's the case, getting some type of copy Coaching, going into a mastermind or any type of group where you can get critiqued or you can build relationships with other copywriters so that you can talk about copy and dissect copy. That may make you feel confident enough to go pitch a bigger client. So it could be something like that. Some people prefer courses and learning through courses. That is another route you could take. I also think it's important to learn outside of the craft. So outside of the writing space, what else are you bringing to the table? Because as there's more and more competition in our space and we're solving bigger and bigger problems in our businesses, what else can you share? What else can you weave into your packages to make it a truly unique mechanism and set yourself apart from everyone else? So I'm always looking at learning outside of the copywriting bubble that we're in and taking classes right now and taking a class in the fall and psychology and like, just continuing to learn and follow your interests, because you never know how it's going to make its way into what you're doing, and you never know how you can bundle it. So it's a clear benefit for your prospects.

I love that.

I think copywriters make a few mistakes when it comes to investing in ourselves. Number one mistake is we wait. We wait too long. And part of that's because usually we're the best writer that we know, and the people we're helping aren't as good at it. And so we don't always think other than maybe we can get better at copywriting. We're not always thinking about how can we improve. The other mistake is that when we start to invest in ourselves, we invest in the same kinds of things over and over. Copywriting training, say, oh, I see this offer for this program or this particular institute or whatever, and we kind of get in this habit of doing the same thing over and over. And Kira said this, but it's really identifying what's missing. If you need business skills, you're a really good writer, but you've never run a business before, then you should invest in a program that will help you build those business skills. If you struggle to find clients, then invest in training that's going to help you find clients. If you struggle with discipline, invest in improving your habits or invest in a coach that can help point out what it is that you're doing wrong in your process. And if you are a pretty good writer, but maybe I could be more persuasive, invest in something that's specifically going to help you build Your persuasion skills, not just another copywriting course. So it takes some self awareness to really be able to identify where are those holes. And that's where coaches, I think, can be really helpful. Having a coach that can say, okay, this is the thing that's missing from your business, or this is the thing that you're missing when you're writing can be phenomenally helpful. But most copywriters are going to hear this and they're going to say, I'm good. And they won't invest in themselves now. They're going to wait and then when they finally do, they're going to think like I did, I should have done this a long time ago. I'd be so much better, I'd be so much further along if I had just swallowed my pride and invested in some of the stuff a few years back.

Yeah, that's a great point. I have this theory that because the barriers to entry are so low in this business, we get conditioned to believe that we don't really need to make investments. Right. Somebody who starts a traditional business, they know from day one they have to make investments. So it builds that kind of healthy mindset. But here it's like all I needed was a laptop, which I already had, and a Gmail account. Everything is free and that's the wrong way to start. So I see a lot of that. But the other thing I see is, well, things seem to be going fine, so why invest? Well, because you don't know what you're missing if you invested in yourself and in your craft. So that's wonderful. So anything? We covered a lot of ground, but I'm really happy with the topics we kind of emphasized here. But anything that came up as we were talking that you feel we didn't cover, that you definitely want to get out there before we wrap up.

I think just to go back to that last question, a big part of it is I like to talk to my friends, family members who are working for other people, usually in much larger organizations and ones where they're taken care of. They have great professions and they're doing really well in their careers and I like to ask them how much their company is investing in their development. And I'm blown away. My sister in law has a great career and she's invested in her career and her education. The organization that she's running and leading is investing in her career and her education and there's a lot of money going into it. And I think about that. I'm like, well, who's investing in me? I have to invest in my career because no one else will. And that's the path I've chosen as a business owner, a small business owner. And I love that path. But if I'm not investing in myself, no one else will. And it goes beyond just our businesses today. It's our future, the future of our career and being aware of what's going to be needed ten years from now, five years from now. And I just think it's a must if you want to continue to build your career into the future.

I think Darrell makes a really good point. Yeah, I mean, you think about programmers. They go to school, they learn programming languages or whatever. That changes over time. So they're always reinvesting in learning. What is the new thing? Copywriting, the words don't really change. The way we structure sentences doesn't really change. Human behavior doesn't really change. But there are so many adjacent skills that we can add to our business to become the best at what we do. Maybe you're not the number one copywriter, but you can be the number one copywriter who knows persuasion skills and rights for plastic surgeons. And you only create websites. You start combining all of these things together and you can really differentiate yourself. But it takes learning. And I think Kira's advice is dead on.

So I have a rule of thumb that I recommend to people. I say, doesn't matter where you are on your journey, the rule of 10. So 10% of your time to work on your business, that can mean a lot of things. That could be reading, having conversations, taking a class, whatever. And 10% of your revenue should go into improving yourself, your craft, your skills, your business. And that just makes it so much easier because it's hard if you gotta dig into your pocket. But if you already got this bucket or envelope with cash in it, so to speak, or dedicated time, then it makes it a lot easier. So. Well, this has been awesome, guys. Thank you for coming in. Before we sign off, where can folks learn more about you? The Copywriters Club. And if there's anything, like, new and exciting that you want to mention, we'd love to hear it.

Yeah, we got all kinds of things.

You always got something new, right?

Yeah. Too many things to mention. But obviously people can find us@the copywriterclub.com. there are links there to our podcast, to the free Facebook group, which you can find, you know, the Copywriter Club. But we do have, assuming this is running sometime in August, towards the end of August, you know, our next accelerated program runs through the fall. And so that'll be open. And we just created a new product, a new basically, it's a workshop series all about how to connect with your ideal client, figure out the problem that you can solve for them, create a pitch, and then automate the process of actually pitching them so that you can, you know, find the clients that you need, especially, you know, when economic times may be a little rough or when your business is a little dry. So. And we've just added that as a bonus for the copywriter accelerator as well. So those are all out there. They can find us. The copywriterclub.com is probably the best place.

Perfect. We'll make sure to include those links in the show notes. And again, thank you for coming on, guys. Love the conversation. And we need to do this again.

Yeah, let's. Let's keep doing it.

Thanks for having us. Yes, it's been really fun.

Well, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a quick reminder to grab your free copy of my latest book, Earn More in Less Time, the Proven Mindset, Strategies and Actions to Prosper as a Freelance writer. You can get your free copy@b2b launcher.com where you will also find the detailed show notes to this and all my other episodes. Enjoy and have a great day.