#310: Better Conversations

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there.

Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With well over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries. Throughout modern history, conversation has been at the heart of human progress. The art of having good conversation is something most people valued. Now, coming from a Hispanic family, conversation was always at the heart of most.

Of what we did growing up.

We're talking the lively, funny conversations at every family gathering about anything under the sun, including politics, religion, current events and what's happening in our lives. But it seems like over the past 20 years or so, more and more people just simply aren't valuing the skill of good conversation like they used to. And that's too bad because the ability to engage in and lead good conversations is a critical business and life skill. My guest today is an expert in this topic. Her name is Patti Denucci and she's the author of the excellent book the Intentional Networker and the upcoming book More Than Just the Essential Guide for Anyone who Wants to Enjoy Better Conversations. I've known patty for over 10 years. She's a great lady, wicked smart and as you'll quickly see, she's an excellent conversationalist in a true.

It's so easy with you. I love it. Can't wait.

Awesome. Well, I want to talk with you today about conversations, the art of conversation. You know, it seems to me, and we can go down several different directions with this, but this is hugely important. I feel for self employed professionals to be able to get better at and manage well. And I feel like the art of conversation is something that people used to really value a long time ago and they wanted to learn, get better at this. And I don't know, it just seems like that's changed over the past, I don't know, 20 years. Do you feel the same way or is that just my perception?

No, it's really been, it's, you know, people say, well, it's the pandemic, but this has been going on from way before the pandemic. There are all kinds of experts out there that have been very concerned about, especially here in America. For some reason we just love our rugged individualism. We are living in a time when we can live alone. We have access to social media, streaming, anything that you want to watch. And not to mention, we could go into the whole how polarized we are politically or think we are polarized politically and how everybody has a megaphone now. And so I think people either have become more. I'm not going to say they've become introverted, because that never happens. Either you're introverted or you're extroverted or ambiverted or whatever. But I think when conversation becomes awkward or unpleasant or contentious or stressful in any way, and sometimes we have that made up in our minds that all conversations will be like that. We don't want to have them. And a big thing, I tell people, and this is just one, the first little tip I'll give you, and then of course, we can flow on into all kinds of things is I look at it, there's a term called assuming positive rapport. I think a huge thing is we're afraid we're going to be rejected or we're afraid it's going to be unpleasant. And if you can assume positive rapport, which means there's a really good chance the other person's going to like you and it's going to be a pleasant conversation. If you can go in with a positive attitude, that is probably one of the number one things that we can change. And that's not easy.

That is interesting.

So much to it, and it's so.

True, because I've been so pleasantly surprised many times when I dread going into a situation, I don't know, a party or get together or, you know, a meeting with a client. And I just assume that things are just not going to go well. Yeah, we're nervous, adversarial, or, you know, it's going to be awkward and. Yeah.

And how does it feel to be around someone who is already feeling like it's going to be awkward? You can sense their feelings of awkwardness and it makes it more awkward. So I don't know. I think that's something we're all getting used to again. The pandemic did impact us in that. And I've talked to people at all kinds of gatherings here in the past six months or a year. People are admitting, like, this feels funny. I'm to need to work at this, like all over again. So everybody's in the same boat. I think it's normal. I don't want to ever say, oh, because if you're having a hard time with conversation, you're a bad person. You're not. It's normal, but it's something we have to work at for sure.

And it's true. I do agree that this was happening way before the pandemic. The pandemic just kind of exacerbated the situation further. You know, I'm hearing a lot of people, and it more and more, I'm hearing this where people are saying they're using this excuse of their personality, you know, as a crutch. Well, you know, that's just not for me, because I'm an introvert or. I just had a conversation with a coaching client this afternoon about, look, you got to talk to your client about money, about payment. Like, this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And we started talking, and she's taking notes, and it's making sense to her. Until she perked up and suddenly said, wait a minute, I just realized something. Are you telling me I need to have this as a conversation? Over zoom. The whole time she thought we were talking about email or.

Hypothetical.

Yeah, hypothetical. You know, and. But I'm hearing a lot of people use the whole personality thing as a crutch.

It's not me.

That's. I'm not good at that. That's not who I am. And we've all seemed to have been given an out for so many things, including this. Can you speak to that? Are you seeing that?

Oh, man, can I ever. You know, and it's so interesting. I learned a lot when I was writing the Intentional Networker and in speaking and preparing workshops. And, you know, I've been doing research, well, very intensively for the last 15 years, probably all my life, really. But I've done even more research. I've learned even more, which has been just fascinating. And here's the thing about social personality. There's the introverts who are energized by solitude. The extroverts who are energized by socializing, being with people, speaking out loud, thinking, you know, the chatty ones who just love people. And then there's those of us like me. I'm right in the middle. I am a right down the middle. Ambivert. Many people haven't heard that term before. Ambivert, which means sometimes I really like my alone time when I can work and be creative and just relax. And then I love to be out and about with people doing what we're doing now. I absolutely love it. And then it's like, yeah, time to go back. And so I vacillate, and I have to pay attention to that vacillation. When is it time to go back into the other realm? Now, on top of that, there's Also shyness. Shyness is something. I don't know enough about where shyness comes from. But I will tell you this. Once you're an introvert, you're always an introvert, whatever your social personality is. And you can find that out by taking the Myers Briggs or there's some quickie tests you can take online to get a glimpse of it. But shyness can be overcome. It's something you have to practice. It's like being terrible at pushups, which that would be me. You have to really work at pushups to get good at them. And so practice and reading about it and talking to people and getting coaching from people like you. So, you know, and you talked about this client of yours needing to have a conversation about money. I had a difficult conversation that I had to have. I'd given a presentation and there was. There's always that one person who fills out the survey that says something really ugly that I felt like was unfair and I didn't deserve. And so I was composing a long email to my client who was the event producer. And I finally writing the email helped me organize my thoughts. But then, you know, I thought, darn it, I'm picking up the phone. We're just going to talk about this. I tell you what, within 30 seconds he already was saying, patti, we know you. We've hired you before. We know this person. We know exactly who this person is. They complain about everything. That's the kind of stuff they say, rip it up, throw it away. It was for nothing. And it was just easier to have had the conversation. And I felt better. And it wasn't a back and forth thing where he wasn't sure how I was, what my tone was, and I wasn't sure what his tone was. We had a. It was wonderful.

So, yeah, much more productive.

Pick up the phone. It's harder for people to ignore you when you have called them.

Is the phone that thing that's got all the pad with all the numbers?

Is that okay, the phone or Zoom or whatever. Whatever Zoom is. You know, I was not a Zoom fan at first and I'm getting, I'm getting to like it because I get to see you.

Totally. So that is an interesting distinction because I do hear people use shy and introverted interchangeably and made a very different. And you're right, one you're born with and that's just who you are. The other one you could work on and there you could be a non shy introvert.

Yes. And just because you're an introvert doesn't Mean, you can't socialize. Your battery is getting charged by solitude and so makes you get enough. Like, if you're an introvert, don't overbook yourself. Don't go to a conference and try to go from the minute the breakfast networking starts to the very last drink is being served in the bar. I mean, I can't do that. You pace yourself and you think, okay, I have to go back to my room or I need to go home now. Or if, you know, I'll do an hour at this networking event and then I'm going home and watching Downton Abbey or whatever your favorite series is. You have to take care of yourself and honor how it works. And I will also say extroverts need to be aware that they can go forever. They're like the marathon runners. And not all of us can do that. So we can't keep up. So, no, that we can't keep up, don't make us keep up.

I first heard that term ambivert from you years ago when we had. I interviewed you for something and I'm like, oh, my gosh, that is me. I didn't know that there was a middle ground because I've taken all the tests and I've just checked with myself a million times, and I am totally in the middle. And I'll give you an example. So I lead a workshop with some of my coaching clients twice a year, and once in the spring, once in the fall. We just completed recently one of them. And I love the energy, you know, being there, all of us together. We're having great discussions. But you know what I do for lunch? We got an hour and a half for lunch. I go to my room.

I'm going to say, do you hide in the bathroom? There's some very famous speakers and thought leaders that go hide somewhere because. Yeah. And I don't know, do you find it like it sounds like you find it super stimulating. Super stimulating.

But I need that break.

I can feel it.

I don't. I can't go to lunch with anybody. Like, no, there's no way that's a continuation. I don't get a break. So I will go to my room and I'll either bring some food, you know, with me, or I will order doordash and have it in a room, because I can't. I just can't. I know that about me. So you're right. I fluctuate back and forth. Yeah, but that's really important. And, you know, you are who you are.

We are who you are.

At the end of the day, you gotta monitor your energy.

Yeah. And you can pretend to be somebody else and it won't work. It'll make you sick.

Totally.

Yeah, totally.

So let's talk about some conversations, and I'd like to get a little tactical with some of these, because I'd love to get some. I know you got some great tips. Here's one. We've all been in a conversation that it's just not going all that well either because you feel you're. I don't know, it's just awkward. Or maybe you feel like they're being a little aggressive and asking too much of you completely unexpectedly. So what can. And I know I just gave you two or three different examples, but what do we do? You know, how do we kind of turn things around in a way that's going to make the conversation more productive? Or how do we end the conversation?

Yeah, there's all of those things. So I will say that any conversation. And you described a couple specific scenarios, but we could say any conversation that you're not finding mutually. It doesn't seem like it's mutually interesting or productive. And granted, this might. May be different from a client conversation. Let's talk about social conversations. Like you're at a.

That one.

Let's start with that one.

You should go through specific examples.

Yeah. So let's say you're at a networking event, and, you know, networking people don't like the term. I don't know any place where you're going to be social, because I think networking happens everywhere. It happens at the gym. It happens when you're out walking the dog. It happens everywhere. But let's say you're at a specific professional event and you're having a conversation with somebody and they're either just talking, talking, talking too much or you don't like the energy. You can't really get the flow going. You can't get a good, mutually interesting conversation going. You know, you can sit there for a while and be polite, and then at some point you can say, you know what? Please forgive me. I. Please forgive me. Those are the three words. Please forgive me. Oh, I see my friend over there. I promised her I would go say hi. So I'm going to say it's nice to meet you, and I'm going to do the mix and mingle thing. And you just say it. Let's say you want to keep talking. Let's say you have a reason that you do want to keep talking to this person, but the topic has gone. Let's say you've gone off on some sad news story or some sort of political thing that is just like, hey, we didn't want to go there. You can say, you can manage the conversation and shift the conversation by saying, hey, let's talk about something else for just a minute. I was wondering. And you can do it in a smooth way. You can say, you know, I'd really rather not talk about that right now. I would really like to ask you about. You are perfectly within your bounds to shift a conversation if the topic is not the topic you want to be talking about. Now, keeping a feeling of grace and kindness and politeness is good, but you do not have to be a doormat. I think people go into conversations and they feel like they have no control whatsoever or they're being a rude, bad person. I would tell you if there's a rude person, it's a rude person that doesn't stop talking or gets off on a topic that is totally inappropriate or doesn't let you participate in the conversation, in managing it. So there's a whole spectrum of. You can avoid people. There are. Trust me, there are people I avoid. I see out and about. I know what it's going to be like. I may say, hey, Bob, how you doing? Great to see you, and scuttle off in another direction. You can approach and get the conversation started and then direct it. Like my hairdresser told me just last week. He said, you don't know this, but I manage these conversations that we have. And he's delightful. It's like, really? I kind of feel like, really, they're not just naturally awesome. He goes, no, no, I've been doing this for years. I know how to guide the conversation. And then there are some where you just flat out have to say, you know, please forgive me, leave, or if someone's being abusive or inappropriate, offensive, anyway, you can just walk away, just escape with your life. It is totally acceptable.

Well, let me give you one that I'm going to try to think of a couple that I know come up a lot.

Yeah, that's in social settings. I mean, when I go to a party or a social, I move around. Unless I'm in some sort of really engaging exchange with somebody, it is actually the right thing to do to mingle around. So you come up with some scenarios that.

No. And that's really important. When I was just in one two weeks ago where I thought, oh my gosh, I'm done talking with this guy, but I need an out. So that's brilliant.

Please forgive me.

Please forgive me. I love that. That's easy because it's three words. What were the three words? Please forgive me. So one with, let's say, clients, you go into a conversation and you feel it's not abusive, but you were not expecting this negative conversation, Right? Negative feedback or something happened that you didn't know about and suddenly, in other words, you're being unloaded new information that you weren't expecting. It's hard to process and you feel stuck. That's a difficult situation.

That is really difficult. Well, I don't know if I'm really the expert on the difficult conversation thing, but I've certainly had difficult conversations or when something came up. And I think sometimes we have to just be honest and say, wow, I was not expecting this. You may need to say, tell me more about what you want to say to me and what I need to know about this. And you may have to say, look, I'm not sure how to process this yet. I need to have some time to think about it. I think you can always ask for time to think about something, you know, even in some of these very lively conversations, you know, that people have about all kinds of topics and policies and you know, and a good friend of mine, in fact, she's the one, my new book is dedicated to Jan B. King. She said that when anybody backs her into a corner, like, well, what do you think about this? And if she's not ready to answer, she'll just say, I'm not ready to answer that. I need some time to think about this. How awesome for someone to say that honestly and say, I need some time than to spout something that's totally un thought through.

Yeah, that might be unfair to you.

Or it's unfair or you're saying something that reactionary. It's reactionary. It might be unprofessional. Those are really difficult. But I've had definitely client conversations over the years that have blindsided me. And, you know, sometimes I've reacted very well. Sometimes, you know, I got defensive that wasn't appropriate. Or sometimes I did say, you know, like in the call I mentioned earlier in this conversation where I knew this person like it was, I love feedback. Feedback is how we grow, you know, even the negative stuff. But this person said something that I thought was totally unfair. It was mean, it was damaging, and I knew that it wasn't true. And so that was why I called and said this. I feel like this wasn't unfair. In fact, I worked really hard to not be that way. The way that she described me. And anyway, I defended myself because in that case, I felt I was being slandered, I guess. And so I stood up for myself. It's okay to stand up for yourself, but I think it's, you know, being gracious and kind and. Well, not necessarily. Sometimes being kind is just not the right thing. But professional, you know, you have a right to say, I'm not really ready to discuss this. Yes. Or I'm going to need more information from you before I know what to even do to fix it or to do it differently.

I think that is huge right there, because we have been conditioned somehow to think that we have to provide answers and agreement when we're not ready to do so.

Right. And we're also in a world where people think it's okay to just attack and to be mean and bullying. I'm writing a speech right now for a group of city leaders, and I'm trying to be very tactful in how I'm telling them that they all need to be more tactful. They're leaders. They need to, you know, practice civility, practice courteousness, practice listening, practice being curious, find out what's on people's minds. We have so many bad examples out there in the media, and they're not only impacting us, they're impacting our kids. The kids think that's normal, that that's how you deal with people, and it's not true.

One of the things you talk about, and I love this, is being able to have the things you talk about, and I love this is being able to have conversations, getting to a place where you can have conversations with authenticity, ease, and confidence. To me, when I read that, I'm like, oh, my God. That is. That is a trifecta right there.

I know. I want that.

I want that. I want that. So I know that, you know, there's no easy hack for that, but what are some easy things people can do to start moving in that direction? You mentioned curiosity.

Yeah.

If you don't feel you're a naturally curious person, you know, what are ways you. Because I know that's a great way to spark conversation into really give it life.

Yeah, let's talk about that for a minute. And then I want to go back to the. What is it? Authenticity, ease and confidence. I think that's the order I put them in. So, yes. Curiosity. Curiosity. What did Dale Carnegie say? The bit about, you know, you can make more friends in two months by being interested in other people than trying to make them Interested in you. And that is so true. And curiosity is, I think if we ever. Boy, I tell you what, if I ever get to the point where I'm not curious and interested in things, learning, finding out, talking to people, trying new things, boy, it's over. And really, truly, they say that the quality of your health and your overall life, later in life, if you're not curious and living curiously and socially, you will decline a lot quicker and you may not survive certain illnesses or injuries. So we're talking about longevity and vibrant living here. So that's a big one to look out into the future. But curiosity. One of the things that is in my new book is we did an entire appendix of questions. There were so many. I could have had thousands of pages of good questions coming up with good questions to ask. Okay, so how do we know what to ask? How do we know what's going to create a conversation? You just don't want to ask random questions where the person's answering and you don't care. That's not even a topic I want to talk about. So let's go back to authenticity. And if you go back to the intentional networker, my very first chapter is about knowing yourself. So most of us don't know ourselves very well. It's a great book by Tasha Urich called Insight, and she says that around 90% of us have no clue. We don't know what we want. We don't know. What if we're an introvert or an extrovert? And I don't know how that's possible. I think it's because we're trying to fit into molds that people want to put us in. But I ask people, what do you want to be talking about? What are you interested in? What would you like to know about people? Like, you know, you're a podcaster, and have you ever been a journalist? Did you ever. Well, you are a journalist. You're a. Why aren't you a communicator? You know, you're writing about people.

You know, I guess, yeah, I did. I'm not a journalist by training or anything like that.

Okay. So back when I was in college, I had lots of writing classes, and I took a journalism class, and I did some writing for the school paper, and I learned about interviewing. And interviewing is all like, asking. Coming up. A good story comes from good questions. So if you want a good story from somebody, ask them questions. And I don't mean being invasive and snoopy and getting in the middle of their business, but, you know, ask People, things like, you know, what three books are on, you have books on your nightstand. What are you reading right now? Or who is the teacher that influenced you the most, the one that you think about and are so grateful for at this stage in your life when people can come up with, in fact, having a powwow to come up with questions like, what's your favorite conversation question? That's a question in itself. So coming up with great questions. We did this thing the other night. We went to this party in San Antonio, and there were three people there we knew, plus the host and hostess. And so we were on our own to try to get to know people. And so we just came up with interesting. When I say we, I mean, my boyfriend Mark and I, we came up with a question like, let's go over to those people over there and let's ask them this question. And it became a quest, like, this is our question for the night. We're going to ask everybody this question. This is great. So it's preparation. Authenticity is about knowing what are you interested in? What do you need to be learning for your career, to get better at what you do for your business, to just to keep life interesting. And then what was the other thing? Ease. Ease and confidence, I think. Ease. Let's talk about that for just a minute. I think remembering that everybody in the room is mostly concerned about themselves, like, oh, my gosh, how are people perceiving me? Do I look okay? Am I going to sound smart or am I going to be impressive, or am I going to sound like a doofus or, you know, what's it going to be? And if we go back to that assume positive report. Just assume you're going to have a great time. And that takes a while to get there. I will say it's practice. And you can fake it till you make it, but just do that part. Do that carefully. Don't come off as a super overconfident, braggadocious person who is just like the annoying little brother that nobody wants to hang out with.

No, but I think I learned that from you in that, hey, if you think about it, everyone's kind of on the same boat.

We are.

And once you get to learn more about them, you realize that they're no better than you. And one thing that I like to think of, kind of a quick little hack, is I imagine that person is like a little toddler. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I feel like I'm afraid to approach them or what, just like, okay, they're just Like a little insecure toddler. You know they are.

And you know, I've had. I don't know about you, Ed, but I've had some really delightful conversations with people that I thought were going to be the most boring people in the room. That's my assumptions, you know, that was me prejudging. I've had boring conversations with people that I thought, oh my gosh, there's so and so who's like the CEO of the company. And it turned out, brilliant person, but not good, not very good at conversation. And I've had some surprising conversations, especially using the talking about tactics, using the tactic of if you're going into a social setting and whatever it is, professional or otherwise, there's always a person that's offstanding by themselves. They're also feeling like, I don't know anybody here, I don't know what to say. Or they just haven't found the right person. Go over and ask them a question. How are you doing? Who do you know here? What brought you to this event? Is this the first time you've been to one of these? Or am I the only one that doesn't know anybody here?

Oh, I love that.

Isn't that a great line? That's my friend Julie Tereschek, who sadly passed away last year. And plus she's British, so she said it in a British accent. Am I the only one who doesn't know anyone here who always sounded so charming and who would be able to resist introducing her to people?

Yeah, I love that.

It's technique. It's a lot of it's technique. And then confidence again. I think it's the more you do this, the better it gets. And honestly, I thought I knew everything about, oh, conversation. Writing a book about conversation, which is my new book, How Hard Can It Be? Well, eight years later, and, you know, we edited it down from I don't even know how many words we had. But it's going to be a 400 some page book. Not a dense 400 some page book, but it'll be thick but easy to go through. Short chapters, sections, things you can go tactically, things you can do strategically. And I know we're going to get to talking about that in a minute, but yeah, I think that covers authenticity, ease and confidence. I'm trying to think if there's anything else I can share off the top of my head. I think practice is a great, like, the more you do it, the better it gets and you actually develop your social intelligence, which there's emotional Intelligence. You know, there's our iq, how smart we are, there's our social intelligence. There is emotional intelligence. And unlike iq, which is set, that's our emotional or intelligence quotient. These other ones are totally expandable. Totally expandable. And what social intelligence means is you begin to be aware of. Hey, this work. That. Didn't you start doing this when you're a preschooler and you're introduced to other kids? Oh, that was fun. This wasn't. I like that kid because no matter what I suggest, he's open to doing it. And this follows you through the rest of your life where you realize, wow, when I start talking about my pets, too much people glaze over. When I start talking about my kids, too much people glaze over. Don't bring up this topic. It's just never goes anywhere good.

Yeah.

Or you can start noticing facial expressions like, I need to change the topic. This person's not into what I'm saying.

So let me ask different. Yeah. And then you should be able to pick up on those cues. Trust yourself. Right. It's like I'm. Yeah, I'm seeing this, but am I really seeing it? No, you're probably seeing it.

You're probably seeing it. Yeah, probably.

I think one of the advantages that listeners of the show have that they. I don't think many of them realize it is that most of my listeners are very, very curious people because they're writers, they're journalists, they're avid readers, they're extremely curious. In fact, one of the biggest problems we have is, like, we want to pursue every new idea, every opportunity. So I think instead of seeing that as maybe a disadvantage sometimes, see it in conversation as a great exploring.

I mean, I love the term exploring. I love the term possibilities. I love the great book called the Art of Possibility by Rosamund Stone Zander and her husband Ben Zander. And it's a delightful book. It's just a fabulous book. And I just love the idea that, okay, try to find the balance between being purposeful. I'm going to go to this event because. Not just out of obligation, but I'm going to go to this event because I want to make this happen. Whatever your vision is. I need to have a good time. I need to meet some people. I have some issues. I need to meet some people who know some things I don't know that will help me solve a problem in my business, or I'm just bored and I want to meet some.